EricLikesHugs
April 18th 2004, 01:27 AM
As earliest as I could possibly remember, Christianity had a very basic message:
-God is holy and just
-Humans are sinful, both by action and nature
-The wages of Sin is death
-Furthermore God cannot stand in the presence of sin, thus we should and will be punished with death or hell.
-Jesus came and died, and through His death, I have vicariously paid the penalty for my sin and can go to heaven.
This is a very romantic view; it's a reasonable Christian model of salvataion that also portrays Jesus in a very good light. However, I have a lot of questions about this subsitutionary model of salvation.
First is, who is demanding payment for sin? Who requires me to die because of my evil? First impression is God, perhaps God the Father. It is He who cannot coexist with sin, so Christ's death quenches God's wrath against me. But then, is our God wrathful, severe, and unforgiving?
I say unforgiving because the traditional problem with our state is our need of forgiveness. Christ's death grants us forgiveness, but that view is contrary to the nature of forgiveness. Specifically there are two major components of forgiveness: the forgoing of revenge and the reconciliation of bad relations. For example, my best friend kills my sister. If my forgiveness is sincere, I do not have to kill his sister and I will try my best to reestablish that relationship of friendship to the best of my ability.
That God needs someone to die, anyone, even if it's His own Son, to simply forgive humans, then that is not forgiveness. God describes Himself as forgiving and merciful and righteous. Most Christians I have seen interpret this need to punish sin as the outworking of the "Righteousness" or "Holiness" of God. It is not Righteousness that you need to kill someone for sin. It is lacking the capacity to let it go. And even if Christ died to pay for my sin, it still doesn't meet the requirement of forgiveness because my salvation is "paid for," albeit by God Himself.
The idea of forgiveness has been uplifted in the legal model of salvation. It is a matter of being acquitted. But I don't think that is the issue. God by nature is forgiving. If Charles Manson or any felon/convict is to be forgiven, pardone say by President Bush, that still doesn't make him safe to live with. You wouldn't want him to move next door. What you need is a conversion, a total paradigm shift in behavior and belief. You need to know that the formerly evil is truly changed. That is the same issue with our spiritual salvation. We don't need to be "pardoned." God forgives. We need to be changed. We need a new heart.
Second, with forgiveness by sacrifice, it puts a wedge into the character of God, especially a trinitarian view. Jesus is shown in the Gospel to be meek, forgiving, loving, and patient. On the cross, to his crucifers, He cries out, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Naturally forgiving. I cannot reconcile Jesus with a wrathful God who demands atonement by execution even if it is Jesus. But isn't Jesus God? Is He paying Himself? Furthermore, isn't Christ the image of the Father? "I and the Father are one?" "If you have seen me you have seen the father." Are they not perfect in will and Character? Is not then God, Father and Holy Spirit, loving, forgiving, merciful, and meek?
Similarly, there is one more question about the nature of God. By sin and rebellion we humans are in disharmony with God. God desires us to be saved and that is why He sent His son. We need reconciliation... but who needs to be reconciled to who? Do we need to be reconciled to God or does God need to be reconciled to us? Let me explain.
A legal model of the death of Christ presupposes that it is God that needs to be reconciled to us. God needs to punish sin sufficiently before He can forgive us. Yet from the scriptural text and human nature, it is we who need to be changed. God Himself, does He change? Did Jesus change God through His death? Is not the God post-crucifixion and God pre-crucifixion the same God?
The begs the question, literally not philosophically, Why did Jesus have to die?
Jesus died.. for our salvation? By sin we have separation, but what is sin? Is it because we've broken God's law? That God is subservient to under god called "Law" or "Justice"? Or is sin, simply stated, rebellion?
We have broken trust with God, we are in a state of disharmony, of will and nature. Salvation then comes by restoring trust. Salvation by faith. Greek people, is not the word for faith, trust, and belief basically the same? (Pisteuo or Pistis?) We need to trust God.
Jesus came to restore trust between Humanity and Divinity. He came to show us who God is, the most direct revelation of the character of God. You cannot call Jesus Christ arbitrary, or wrathful, or vengeful, or severe, or unforgiving. The diametric opposite. He came to show us that God, that He, was a God worth trusting. He came to show us that the consequence, the natural logical progression of sin, (not punishment), is death. To be honest, God did not kill Christ. But God did something very specific. He forsook Jesus. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
God is the source of life and light. Without Him, apart from Him, we have darkness, chaos, and nothingness. When we rebel, we are unplugging ourselves from the source. One we unplug, once we time and time again ask God to go away, to stop messing with our lives, what is the natural consequence of our decision? Death.
If Jesus paid for my sin, he didn't pay enough. What is the wrath of God? Eternal burning hell? Christ's death on the cross did not include eternal burning hell, for Jesus is on the right hand of God in glory. Is the wrath of God eternal annhilation or separation? Then Christ did not pay for my sin because he is not eternally separated from the Father, but again, in the right hand of glory in the Kingdom of God. Jesus, if anything, paid the price of forsakeness.
Thus in the pinnacle of history, the life of Jesus, we have something much more profound than simple blood atonement. We have a God, willing to go to any depths and heights to save His children. We have a Father in heaven, who instead of demanding "justice" and payment for sin, sends His Son to prove His love. "In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." John 16:26-28. One of the few times the disciples ask Jesus to explain Himself plainly, He says "The Father Himself loves you," and they say "Now you're speaking plainly."
That is the message of the Gospel. The Father Himself loves you. But there are still many facets of the cross left to explore.
Why did Jesus have to die? For you, for me, for the whole world, and perhaps even for the angels and the unfallen worlds? What're your thoughts? I know I've probably been black listed by all the theology majors, but I want an answer to this question, because this is literally the cornerstone of Christianity.
-God is holy and just
-Humans are sinful, both by action and nature
-The wages of Sin is death
-Furthermore God cannot stand in the presence of sin, thus we should and will be punished with death or hell.
-Jesus came and died, and through His death, I have vicariously paid the penalty for my sin and can go to heaven.
This is a very romantic view; it's a reasonable Christian model of salvataion that also portrays Jesus in a very good light. However, I have a lot of questions about this subsitutionary model of salvation.
First is, who is demanding payment for sin? Who requires me to die because of my evil? First impression is God, perhaps God the Father. It is He who cannot coexist with sin, so Christ's death quenches God's wrath against me. But then, is our God wrathful, severe, and unforgiving?
I say unforgiving because the traditional problem with our state is our need of forgiveness. Christ's death grants us forgiveness, but that view is contrary to the nature of forgiveness. Specifically there are two major components of forgiveness: the forgoing of revenge and the reconciliation of bad relations. For example, my best friend kills my sister. If my forgiveness is sincere, I do not have to kill his sister and I will try my best to reestablish that relationship of friendship to the best of my ability.
That God needs someone to die, anyone, even if it's His own Son, to simply forgive humans, then that is not forgiveness. God describes Himself as forgiving and merciful and righteous. Most Christians I have seen interpret this need to punish sin as the outworking of the "Righteousness" or "Holiness" of God. It is not Righteousness that you need to kill someone for sin. It is lacking the capacity to let it go. And even if Christ died to pay for my sin, it still doesn't meet the requirement of forgiveness because my salvation is "paid for," albeit by God Himself.
The idea of forgiveness has been uplifted in the legal model of salvation. It is a matter of being acquitted. But I don't think that is the issue. God by nature is forgiving. If Charles Manson or any felon/convict is to be forgiven, pardone say by President Bush, that still doesn't make him safe to live with. You wouldn't want him to move next door. What you need is a conversion, a total paradigm shift in behavior and belief. You need to know that the formerly evil is truly changed. That is the same issue with our spiritual salvation. We don't need to be "pardoned." God forgives. We need to be changed. We need a new heart.
Second, with forgiveness by sacrifice, it puts a wedge into the character of God, especially a trinitarian view. Jesus is shown in the Gospel to be meek, forgiving, loving, and patient. On the cross, to his crucifers, He cries out, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Naturally forgiving. I cannot reconcile Jesus with a wrathful God who demands atonement by execution even if it is Jesus. But isn't Jesus God? Is He paying Himself? Furthermore, isn't Christ the image of the Father? "I and the Father are one?" "If you have seen me you have seen the father." Are they not perfect in will and Character? Is not then God, Father and Holy Spirit, loving, forgiving, merciful, and meek?
Similarly, there is one more question about the nature of God. By sin and rebellion we humans are in disharmony with God. God desires us to be saved and that is why He sent His son. We need reconciliation... but who needs to be reconciled to who? Do we need to be reconciled to God or does God need to be reconciled to us? Let me explain.
A legal model of the death of Christ presupposes that it is God that needs to be reconciled to us. God needs to punish sin sufficiently before He can forgive us. Yet from the scriptural text and human nature, it is we who need to be changed. God Himself, does He change? Did Jesus change God through His death? Is not the God post-crucifixion and God pre-crucifixion the same God?
The begs the question, literally not philosophically, Why did Jesus have to die?
Jesus died.. for our salvation? By sin we have separation, but what is sin? Is it because we've broken God's law? That God is subservient to under god called "Law" or "Justice"? Or is sin, simply stated, rebellion?
We have broken trust with God, we are in a state of disharmony, of will and nature. Salvation then comes by restoring trust. Salvation by faith. Greek people, is not the word for faith, trust, and belief basically the same? (Pisteuo or Pistis?) We need to trust God.
Jesus came to restore trust between Humanity and Divinity. He came to show us who God is, the most direct revelation of the character of God. You cannot call Jesus Christ arbitrary, or wrathful, or vengeful, or severe, or unforgiving. The diametric opposite. He came to show us that God, that He, was a God worth trusting. He came to show us that the consequence, the natural logical progression of sin, (not punishment), is death. To be honest, God did not kill Christ. But God did something very specific. He forsook Jesus. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
God is the source of life and light. Without Him, apart from Him, we have darkness, chaos, and nothingness. When we rebel, we are unplugging ourselves from the source. One we unplug, once we time and time again ask God to go away, to stop messing with our lives, what is the natural consequence of our decision? Death.
If Jesus paid for my sin, he didn't pay enough. What is the wrath of God? Eternal burning hell? Christ's death on the cross did not include eternal burning hell, for Jesus is on the right hand of God in glory. Is the wrath of God eternal annhilation or separation? Then Christ did not pay for my sin because he is not eternally separated from the Father, but again, in the right hand of glory in the Kingdom of God. Jesus, if anything, paid the price of forsakeness.
Thus in the pinnacle of history, the life of Jesus, we have something much more profound than simple blood atonement. We have a God, willing to go to any depths and heights to save His children. We have a Father in heaven, who instead of demanding "justice" and payment for sin, sends His Son to prove His love. "In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." John 16:26-28. One of the few times the disciples ask Jesus to explain Himself plainly, He says "The Father Himself loves you," and they say "Now you're speaking plainly."
That is the message of the Gospel. The Father Himself loves you. But there are still many facets of the cross left to explore.
Why did Jesus have to die? For you, for me, for the whole world, and perhaps even for the angels and the unfallen worlds? What're your thoughts? I know I've probably been black listed by all the theology majors, but I want an answer to this question, because this is literally the cornerstone of Christianity.