DF & Reality

[Hitch]

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From the SRB p 250;

The Palestinian covenant gives the conditions under which Israel entered the land of promise. It is important to see that the nation has never as yet taken the land under the unconditional Abrahamic covenant nor has it ever possessed the whole land...

This forms yet a second pilliar in the DF construction of the future greatness of Israel. Israel was promised the Land and since they never recieved it that Promise is yet to be fulfilled. Hence the current teachings of Israeli national resurgence etc.

As usal a simple reading of the pertainent Scriptures undermines great 'dispensational truth'.




Josh 21:43
43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
(KJV)

Hmmmmmm, but that aint it...


Josh 21:44-45
44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
(KJV)


A sandy foundation indeed.


Take care

Hitch


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[Philemon]

I'd have to agree with you there Hitch. Where is a dispy to take this one on? :blush:

[Hitch]

You can never find one when you want one....

[truthman]

I saw Philemon this weekend in Denver at the Age of the Earth debate which was put on by the GODISNOWHERE ministry.

I told him to get back on TWeb, even if he isn't dispensational in his theology!

truthman

[Darth Xena]

Yes please, I certainly miss him!

And I thought you were going to take on this thread, though Hitch no longer posts here.

[Lizard]

Yes please, I certainly miss him!

And I thought you were going to take on this thread, though Hitch no longer posts here.
Oh, please do. There are still pently of us weak and helpless preterist lying around for you to pounce. :pray:















:ddw: do you think he's going to fall for it :faramir: :whip:


:grin:

[Ted]

Let's throw another curve into this discussion. The typical Dispensational view of the land promise of Gen 15 is that it involves the land of Israel west of the Jordan. Of course, in Genesis, the promise is from "The Great River to the river of Egypt." In other wrods, from Baghdad to Cairo. But it gets worse. :read:

Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

This inspired comment, directed specifically at Abraham, points out two flaws in the Dispensational approach.
1. The promise is by FAITH (cf. Gal 3:29, Heb 11).
2. The promise is for THE WORLD. (cf. Matt 5:5).

The only way around this is to deny that Paul was commenting on Genesis 15, but of course, he was. :duh:

[Darth Xena]

You are correct Ted. Unfortunately I find that dispensationalism has to in many ways not follow the Apostolic hermeneutic which wasn't (gasp!) LITERAL in the way we have made it a sacred cow today.

[Daywalker]

Let's throw another curve into this discussion. The typical Dispensational view of the land promise of Gen 15 is that it involves the land of Israel west of the Jordan. Of course, in Genesis, the promise is from "The Great River to the river of Egypt." In other wrods, from Baghdad to Cairo. But it gets worse. :read:



This inspired comment, directed specifically at Abraham, points out two flaws in the Dispensational approach.
1. The promise is by FAITH (cf. Gal 3:29, Heb 11).
2. The promise is for THE WORLD. (cf. Matt 5:5).

The only way around this is to deny that Paul was commenting on Genesis 15, but of course, he was. :duh:
In Matt. 5 Christ is telling the JEW that HE will inherit the earth. He is not talking to Gentiles. Even IF there were Gentiles in the midst, it would not have mattered, Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and thus would have had THEM in view as a minister of the circumcision (Rom. 15; Matt.15).

The promise in Gal 3:29 was just that...still just a promise, it did not happen yet. For them to be HEIRS accourding to the promise, all you have to do is go back to what God ORIGINALLY told abraham (for Paul speaks to them with that knowledge) and it would be obvious that the land grant was in view for the Jew still, even though the Gentile would get the kingdom of God (government of God) in his nation. Hence, Abraham was to be the father of many nations and when that came to fruition, actual KINGS would come forth of him. Yet, there were no actual rulers in Paul's day...the manifestation of the promise had yet to come even though their identification in the promise was realized.

Israel WAS to get the land as a PERMANENT occupancy. The Gentiles would remain in their nations. Thus, Abraham would BE the "FATHER of MANY NATIONS"...

The Gal. had the promise of the spirit, but even though they were heirs according to the promise made to Abraham that was not an accomplished fact at the time. It is clear from what Abraham would have understood in context in Gen. 15 and 17 that his spiritual seed would reign in this earth (both the CIRCUMCISION and the UNCIRCUMCISION). Neither is happening right now. I saw the post on Josh...that proves nothing. God could give the land to Israel ten billion times and it would not have mattered...what they are looking for in the promise of Gen. 15 and 17 was the idea of permanancy, something that they have yet to enjoy.

Ezekiel 36:24-28 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

God was going to give Israel the land THROUGH the NEw Cov't and when it happens, the land will literally be turned just like the garden of Eden, and not the dump that is now...

Paul summed things up in Gal. by stating that the law COULD NOT disannul the promise made to Abraham, but that is exactly what men have done.

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

They took an UNCONDITIONAL Cov't that God made with Abraham and his seed (those that were circumcised became the seed) that of the seed the land grant would be vindicated. The law COULD NOT disanul what God stated to Abraham. So, to say that Israel LOST that chance to be a ruling class as it was in times past denies the unconditionalness of the promise.


Isaiah 65:22-23 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

And just so we all know that that text CAN'T be in Rev. 21-22>>

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

There are no sinners in the New Heaven and Earth in Rev. 21-22.

When a Jew read that passage, they knew full well in simple English that they were to be restored as an ethnic group, for that is EXACTLY what Israel IS.

Again, the Abrahamic cov't was FOR THE BENEFIT of many nations, but SPECIFICALLY TO the promised circumcised seed of Abraham. God would DISTINGUISH one race above all others for the purpose of bringing his government onto this world.

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Genesis 15:18-21 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Genesis 17:10-11 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Again, the all nations would get the benefit of Father Abraham in that they would be a part of God's governmental rule with actual kings, but ONE would stand out specifically for a particular territory and when that happens.