Word Counts & Comparisons

[John Reece]

This is an experimental thread to note occurrences and comparisons of words in the Greek text of 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Ephesians 4.

σωμα (body) occurs 18 times in 1 Corinthians 12 and 4 times in Ephesians 4.

Χριστος (Christ) in 12:12 is used in a sense inclusive of the Body of Christ.

εκκλησια (church) occurs once in 1 Corinthians 12 and 9 times in 1 Corinthians 14.

So, by means of the above three words, there are 33 references to the church as the body of Christ in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14 and Ephesians 4.

το τελειον (the mature/complete/perfect) in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is the teleological focus of 1 Corinthians 12-14.

ανδρα τελειον (a mature man) in Ephesians 4:13 is the teleological focus of Ephesians 4.

The above two Greek terms are set in contexts that have certain significant words in common:

ανηρ in 1 Corinthians 13:11 is the same word as ανδρα in Ephesians 4:13 (the former is nominative; the latter is accusative).

ανηρ (man) in 1 Corinthians 13:11 is contrasted with νηπιος (child) in verse 11 (4 occurrences therein), and also is contrasted with εκ μερους (partial/incomplete) in verses 9, 10, and 12.

ανδρα (man) in Ephesians 4:13 is contrasted with νηπιοι (children) in verse 14, and also with μερους (part) in verse 16.

του Χριστου in Ephesians 4:13 is used in the same sense as is Χριστος 1 Corinthians 12:12 – that is, the term "Christ" is used with a sense inclusive of Christ’s Body, the Church.

Is that enough to suggest that το τελειον (the mature/complete/perfect) in 1 Corinthians 13:10 may have the same referent as ανδρα τελειον (a mature man) in Ephesians 4:13?

[GrayPilgrim]

A few other words in the list I found significant—

διδωμι-- occurs 12 times (7 in 1 Cor. 12-14 and 5xs in Eph 4)—meaning according to BDAG 2. to give someth. out, give, bestow, grant; 7. appoint to special responsibility,

αγαπη-- (13 times 10 in 1 Cor and 3 in Eph) I stumbled across this a couple of weeks ago in preparing a lesson on 1 Peter 4. Whenever the Spiritual gifts are discussed in the NT they are always accompanied by an admonition concerning αγαπη (agape/love). I think that this should season our discussions on the issue as well.

[GrayPilgrim]

BTW What method did you use to complie yours? I used the word list manager in Bible Works 5.0 to complie a list.

[John Reece]

GP,

Thanks for the additions.

BTW What method did you use to complie yours? I used the word list manager in Bible Works 5.0 to complie a list.

I counted them one by one, some in the Nestle-Aland text, some in Computer-Konkordanz Zum Novem Testamentum Graece by Walter De Gruyter.

If you find inaccuries in my count, I'd welcome corrections.

I have Bible Works 5.0, but have never learned to use it.

[John Reece]

GP,

Whenever the Spiritual gifts are discussed in the NT they are always accompanied by an admonition concerning áãáðç (agape/love). I think that this should season our discussions on the issue as well.

That's a most excellent point. There are twin themes of unity and maturity in the texts of 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Ephesians 4, regarding which agape/love is THE essential element.

This gives me an opportunity to bring in a third text that always comes to my mind re 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Ephesians 4:

John 17

20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one (τετελειωμενοι εις εν - completed/perfected/matured into one), so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. (ESV)

My wife is getting tired of waiting for me to take her to practice the organ at church, so I'm not going to even try to count the times agape/love and its cognate verb occurs in the full context of the above excerpt from John 17.

:smile:

[GrayPilgrim]

Hey if you'd like I could send you a handout that I made up when I taught a couple of sessions on BibleWorks 4.0 at TEDS. If you use advanced user's mode in 5.0 it is very similar but with a few additons. PM your email address if you would like me to send it to you.

GP

[John Reece]

Thanks, GP.

PM on the way...

[Gavin]

Dear John,

what an exceedingly interesting thread! Thank you for directing my attention to it. I am very grateful I found it.

Here are some points I found particularly helpful:

áíçñ in 1 Corinthians 13:11 is the same word as áíäñá in Ephesians 4:13 (the former is nominative; the latter is accusative).

áíçñ (man) in 1 Corinthians 13:11 is contrasted with íçðéïò (child) in verse 11 (4 occurrences therein), and also is contrasted with åê ìåñïõò (partial/incomplete) in verses 9, 10, and 12.

áíäñá (man) in Ephesians 4:13 is contrasted with íçðéïé (children) in verse 14, and also with ìåñïõò (part) in verse 16.


The child/man and complete/partial is so clear in both.

Also, GP

áãáðç-- (13 times 10 in 1 Cor and 3 in Eph) I stumbled across this a couple of weeks ago in preparing a lesson on 1 Peter 4. Whenever the Spiritual gifts are discussed in the NT they are always accompanied by an admonition concerning áãáðç (agape/love). I think that this should season our discussions on the issue as well.

Exactly correct. Love and spiritual gifts are stronly related. Also the idea of unity, so prevalent in both passages.

And then:

John 17

20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one (ôåôåëåéùìåíïé åéò åí - completed/perfected/matured into one), so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. (ESV)

Throw John 17 into the picture and the similarities are even more obvious! I am going to use some of this stuff in my debate.

Thanks again.

BTW, how do you type in Greek?

[Gavin]

I guess that greek can't be quoted.:argh:

[John Reece]

Gavin,

Re:

BTW, how do you type in Greek?

There are two ways. One is more labor intensive than the other - I use the former, because it also works for Hebrew, and I prefer to do both languages the same way (and Socrates says the easy way works only for Windows programs).

I have forgotten the easy way (I think Jaltus is still using it?).

Here is how the more labor intensive way goes:

[ size = 2 ] & alpha ; & gamma ; & alpha ; & pi ; &eta ; [ / size ]

Remove ALL the spaces, and (if I did not make any typographical errors) you should get the Greek version of agape.

Another way of putting it is that you prefix & and suffix ; to the dictionary spelling of the Greek letters.

If you want to add bold or italic font codes, put them on the outside; that is, leave [ size = 2 ] and [ / size ] next/closest to the Greek code.

Without the size code, the size of the letters will be about the same as the default setting for signatures.

[Gavin]

Thanks.

[John Reece]

Gavin,

I recommend you use this method (the easy way) of writing Greek on TWeb (if you use a Windows PC):

Write the text between these sets of brackets: [ font = symbol ] text here [ / font ] - with all spaces deleted, except in the "text here" part.

In the "text here" area, just write in English alphabet (a = alpha, etc.). The English letters will be automatically transformed into Greek letters.

Two exceptions to normal transliteration: eta is produced by the "h/H" key. theta is produced by the "q/Q" key.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[Gavin]

Rats I don't have windows pc I will have to stick to the labor intensive way.

[John Reece]

Did you experiment to see if indeed the easy way does not work on a non-Windows PC?

[Sher]

OOoo... I wanna learn Greek and Hebrew :bawl:

Hey, can anyone tell me how to write "peace" "and" (as in "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Phil 4:7") I'd love to add that to my sig ... Peace and Love :smile:

αγαπη

[John Reece]

SherBear,

What method did you use to put the English transliteration "agaph" into Greek?

Did you put & in front and ; at the end of spellings of the Greek letters?

Or did you write transliterated Greek between [ font ] and [ / font ]?

[Socrates]

peace and = ειρηνη και (eirene kai)

Phil. 4:7 και η ειρην&eta του θεου 'η 'υπερηχουσα παντα νουν φρουρησει τας καρδιας 'υμων και τα νοηματα 'υμων εν χρστω 'ιησου

[Gavin]

John,

Did you experiment to see if indeed the easy way does not work on a non-Windows PC?

Yes the attempt unfortunately failed.

αγαπη

[Gavin]

Test:

εκ μερουσ

το τελιον

[Gavin]

Hey how do I make final sigmas?

[John Reece]

Today @ 01:43 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=48888#post48888)
Gavin:

Hey how do I make final sigmas?

sigmaf

To begin Greek word with capital letter, capitalize the first letter of the code:

Sigma

[Gavin]

k thanks

:thumb:

[Sher]

03-30-2003 @ 07:57 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=48457#post48457)
John Reece:

SherBear,

What method did you use to put the English transliteration "agaph" into Greek?

Did you put & in front and ; at the end of spellings of the Greek letters?

Or did you write transliterated Greek between [ font ] and [ / font ]? Hi John, I forgot about this thread ... sorry.

[ size=2 ] αγαπη[ /size ] :smile:

Thanks Soc :kiss: I am heading over to add that to my sig!


:frown: How did you guys get it to work in your sig??
Nevermind... I figured it out... I couldn't get it to work for the same reason it doesn't work in the quoting... the html changes the & to & amp ; (without the spaces)

Sweet ... it works and looks great ...

... now I am just praying I can trust Soc not to have made me change my sig to read "I am a blonde moron; do not listen to anything I say" :teeth:

[John Reece]

SherBear,

:thumb:

[John Reece]

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love (αγαπη) never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part (εκ μερους) and we prophesy in part (εκ μερους), 10 but when the perfect (το τελειον) comes, the partial (εκ μερους) will pass away. 11 When I was a child (νηπιος), I spoke like a a child (νηπιος), I thought like a a child (νηπιος), I reasoned like a a child (νηπιος). When I became a man (ανηρ), I gave up childish ways (τα του εκ μερους). 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love (αγαπη) abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love (αγαπη).

Ephesians 4

10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ (του σωματος του Χριστου ), 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood (εις ανδρα τελειον), to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Χριστος ), 14 so that we may no longer be children (νηπιοι), tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ (Χριστος ), 16 from whom the whole body (σωμα), joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body (σωμα) grow so that it builds itself up in love (αγαπη). (ESV)

In a Bible commentary published by the Church of England in 1903, the Reverend Canon Evans, Professor of Greek at the University of Durham, wrote the following remarkably pithy comment (regarding 1 Corinthians 13:9-11):

"N.B.: The true idea of the rare phrase εκ μερους in ver. 9, may be gathered from its contrast το τελειον = full-grown or perfect in ver. 10, and more plainly still in ver. 11, where νηπιος has for its contrast ανηρ. It is clear as day from these three verses taken together that εκ μερους : νηπιος = το τελειον : ανηρ. Compare also Eph . 4:13, 14, where ανηρ τελειος and νηπιος are in contrast."

[John Reece]

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect (to teleion, “the mature/complete/perfect”) comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (ESV)

Does the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10 indicate that the pneumatika (“spiritual gifts”) of speaking in tongues and prophesying have a biblical terminus ad quem (end toward which) other than the time “when to teleion comes”?

Ephesians 4

11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood (andra teleion, “a mature man”), to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (ESV)

Does the context of Ephesians 4:13 indicate a biblical terminus ad quem (end toward which) for the giving of “the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers” other than the time when we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood (andra teleion, “a mature man”), to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ?

[Solly]

Interesting questions John, and somehow the ones I thought someone might ask - indeed, hoped they would ask - hence my comments on an thematic exposition of 1 Cor.

Do you think 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4 are necessarily parallel in thought? Do you think it possible that 1 Cor 13.8-10, and 11-12 are parallel in thought, rather than consecutive?

[John Reece]

Today @ 06:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=308697#post308697)
Solly:

Do you think 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4 are necessarily parallel in thought?

Yes. See posts #1, #2, #5, and #25 above.

Do you think it possible that 1 Cor 13.8-10, and 11-12 are parallel in thought, rather than consecutive?

They are complementary parts of a single thought.

ek merouV (verse 9, “in part/incomplete/imperfect”) and nhpioV (verse 11, “immature/a child’) relate to to teleion (verse 10, the complete/mature/perfect) and anhr (verse 11, “a mature man") as complementary antitheses.

As demonstrated in post #25 above, the same relationship between the same words, with the same teleological focus, is present in Ephesians 4:10-16.

[John Reece]

Bump for Dr. King.

[Amazing Rando]

Speaking of word counts and comparisons, I often hear skeptics trying to deny the authenticity of certain Pauline epistles, like Ephesians and the Timothys by comparing their vocabulary to those of the recognized "genuine" Pauline epistles like Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians. I've heard that such methodology, when used to compare the "genuine" Pauline epistles to each other, shows similar differences, thus rendering this critical method invalid. Can anybody provide me with some specifics of this? I'd like a bit more ammo to fire back at skeptics who try to deny the Pauline-ness of certain epistles using this method. Thanks!