Ossuary: Golan's Secret Warehouse is raided...

[Vorkosigan]

It's a fraud, guys. Some of us figured it out months ago.....

https://listhost.uchicago.edu/piper...rch/007582.html
"Last Tuesday Golan was called again for interrogation together with his secretary. At night the IAA and the police searched other storehouses that Golan did not inform about, revealing hundreds of archaeological finds suspected as being looted, boxes with earth from various locations in the country, chemicals, engraving tools, dental equipment and other suspicious items of this kind. From there, the investigators went to search the apartment of Golan's parents. Golan was taken there too, with handcuffs. At this point he broke and asked to stop the search, promising that the JI will be brought to the IAA. Yesterday the stone was brought by Golan's lawyer to the Jerusalem police, then to the office of the Minister of Education and to the IAA."

https://listhost.uchicago.edu/piper...rch/007632.html
"I understand that the store contained many genuine (supposedly looted) antiquities. As for the dental equipment, chemicals etc, this can be used also for restoration. Even at my own lab (in which some restoration of metals is being made together with microarchaeology) there is such equipment. So it doesn't necessarily mean that Golan was the forger of the JI (and I agree that it is most likely a forgery). Yet earth samples and engraving facilities are indeed suspect.

At present, the IAA is planning to appoint two research committees that will examine the authenticity of the James ossuary and the JI. Being a member of one, I know that these committees will consult experts from other laboratories around the world. So, unless Golan admits his direct involvement in faking these artifacts, the verdict as to the authenticity of the James ossuary and the JI will be given by the experts.

Yuval
[Yuval Goren] "

More POlice Trouble for Golan (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=274336)

Vorkosigan

[Woman]

Here is where I like to check for Biblical/archeological information. It seems to be a very good source. I'm on my way there now to see what they are reporting on this.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/news.htm

[jpholding]

Trying to establish guilt by association also, Vork? :smile: Check the "Halls" thread. I just quoted the Globe and Mail as saying that reports of Golan's earlier interrogation were false.

Thought it was pretty funny on iidb.org though, did you? :lol:

So why'd you walk out on the Gospel authorship thread, mmm?

[Yog^sothoth]

Hey Vork, that link doesn't work.:help:

[Vorkosigan]

jpholding:
Trying to establish guilt by association also, Vork? :smile:

In this case, it ain't very difficult. Golan may as well confess and save everyone the trouble.

Check the "Halls" thread. I just quoted the Globe and Mail as saying that reports of Golan's earlier interrogation were false.

Thought it was pretty funny on iidb.org though, did you? :lol:

It's still funny, and getting funnier. Golan has a warehouse full of antiquities and forgery equipment and two suspicious items have emerged from his collection. And yet people are still defending that ossuary and its inscription as authentic.

You know, JP, you don't have to defend everything just because it is associated with Christianity....

I am sure, though, that even if Golan confesses in minute detail, and proves how he did it, there will be aologists shouting that it is some kind of bizarre conspiracy.....

So why'd you walk out on the Gospel authorship thread, mmm?

Alas, I lost track of a bunch of threads at that time. Translation work suddenly leaps up and grabs me every few days, and I have to spend time away from my Net addiction. Very annoying.:smile: You have my abject apologies.

Vorkosigan

[Vorkosigan]

Today @ 04:19 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49990#post49990)
Yog^sothoth:

Hey Vork, that link doesn't work.:help:

Hmmm...well, the third link does..

Vorkosigan

[Yog^sothoth]

I know this, do you have links to the other two? Otherwise....:nc:

[jpholding]

In this case, it ain't very difficult. Golan may as well confess and save everyone the trouble.

A wish-dream on your part, really. As I have said before, it may yet prove out fake, but not a word yet presented does so except by conspiracy-mongering speculation which you would probably be unhappy to be convicted upon in a court of law.

It's still funny, and getting funnier. Golan has a warehouse full of antiquities and forgery equipment and two suspicious items have emerged from his collection. And yet people are still defending that ossuary and its inscription as authentic.

That's because "people" don't make presumptive leaps based on interpretations of evidence as opposed to actual evidence. If this were the rule, you would now convert.

After IAA was embarrassed before by not noticing the ossuary leaving, this sounds more like cheap vengeance than anything else. Golan ticked them off; now they take it out on him. See? I can play the conspiracy game as well as you can. :smile:

You know, JP, you don't have to defend everything just because it is associated with Christianity....

I don't. But I do defend against poor thinking and presumptive reasoning. :smile: If it is to be found fake, let it be on genuine grounds and not because of National Enquirer leaps of faith. Isn't that what your side always tells US? Mmmmm?

I am sure, though, that even if Golan confesses in minute detail, and proves how he did it, there will be aologists shouting that it is some kind of bizarre conspiracy.....

I suppose you need some kind of faith, no? Nothing like predicting an overstated reaction in order to pump up your own faith in your system.

I am today posting a challenge for formal debate on Gospel dates and authorship if you are interested.

[AtheistArchon]

- The forum software cut off those links, Vork:

https://listhost.uchicago.edu/piper...rch/007582.html

- There's more between the piper and the rch, but it got abbreviated. If you go back, and type in the remainder, it should work. I'd like to see the first two links. :smile:

[Yog^sothoth]

As far as my own research is concerned. I can only find a question on the Jehosash Inscription. The validity of the Ossary is not in question in it's authenticity, rather, it is in question as the validity that it was indeed james, brother of jesus...THE Yeshua as it were.

www.bib-arch.org has a good overview of said box.

[Vorkosigan]

Vork: In this case, it ain't very difficult. Golan may as well confess and save everyone the trouble.

JP: A wish-dream on your part, really.

You're right. He doesn't seem like the type to confess. Yet he might. Top forgers are a bit like serial killers -- they like to brag about their work, how they fooled top scholars, etc.

As I have said before, it may yet prove out fake, but not a word yet presented does so except by conspiracy-mongering speculation which you would probably be unhappy to be convicted upon in a court of law.

No doubt! But a man with a warehouse full of forgery equipment whose collection produces two questionable artifacts....well, you have to admit, it does look pretty damning.

That's because "people" don't make presumptive leaps based on interpretations of evidence as opposed to actual evidence. If this were the rule, you would now convert.

....yes, to Ba'hai.

After IAA was embarrassed before by not noticing the ossuary leaving, this sounds more like cheap vengeance than anything else. Golan ticked them off; now they take it out on him. See? I can play the conspiracy game as well as you can. :smile:

Jp, you know perfectly well that the IAA did not plant the hundreds of artifacts and forgery equipment found in Golan's stash.

I suppose you need some kind of faith, no? Nothing like predicting an overstated reaction in order to pump up your own faith in your system.

Just looking at history, JP. Some people still loudly argue the Shroud of Turin is for real, you know, hoping they can drown out the facts.

I am today posting a challenge for formal debate on Gospel dates and authorship if you are interested.

Sorry. My schedule is too uncertain.

Vorkosigan

[jpholding]

You're right. He doesn't seem like the type to confess.

Definitely. Too innocent. :lol: Hey, you want to play.... :smile:

No doubt! But a man with a warehouse full of forgery equipment whose collection produces two questionable artifacts....well, you have to admit, it does look pretty damning.

It doesn't unless you spin it out to that effect. Again, I doubt if you'd be happy taken to court and convicted on such evidence. Would you? I think not. If you do, report to prison now, I'll find something. :brow: Hmm. Two "questionable artifacts", one he brought to a top expert and let the IGS examine, another he brought in to authorities? If Golan is a cad, he's a dumb one.

....yes, to Ba'hai.

Ah. I'd knock you out of that fast. The rest of my family is into Mr. Bahulahoop.

Jp, you know perfectly well that the IAA did not plant the hundreds of artifacts and forgery equipment found in Golan's stash.

Nope, they just came after him at a very convenient time to save themselves face. Has anyone else asked whether earth samples and engraving equipment have other legitimate purposes? Such as, trying to trace an artifact bought on the market to where it may have been excavated? Or, making duplicates for public display (like costume jewelry)? See how easy it is to play the spin game? You're better off waiting for actual evidence. I will. I'm not that concerned that the ossuary be genuine to begin with.

Report to cell 6, inmate Vork.

Just looking at history, JP. Some people still loudly argue the Shroud of Turin is for real, you know, hoping they can drown out the facts.

Ain't seen it, but maybe you watch some trash TV or read some goofy websites I don't. Fair enough. I'll also blame you for the next time Acharya S barfs some nonsense out. :brow:

[Yog^sothoth]

Vork, all we want really is the linkage....:rofl:

[Vorkosigan]

he brought in to authorities? If Golan is a cad, he's a dumb one.

No, he's a smart one. In cases like this, the forgery needs to come to expert attention quietly and right away. Remember, the forger (recognizing that it may also be an ancient forgery) wants to unload the object as rapidly as possible ($$ is a powerful motive). Hence the brilliant move with the "tests" at the beginning which provided a veneer of authenticity without an actual challenge to it (as Lupia and others pointed out), and the recruitment of Lemaire as a front (rumor had it for a while that Lemaire is the actual owner of the object!) to give the academic community another target, and to provide authenticity. If you look at other famous forgery cases, such as those of Lenormant, Wise, Van Meegeren, and Backhouse, which I have discussed at Infidels where I am sure you read them, this one is following pretty much the same trajectory. Backhouse's especially. The ossuary might even be accepted as genuine for a while; nothing would surprise me less. Authenticating ancient artifacts is a notoriously tricky task, in part because so many forgeries are out there in museums to confuse the experts. But in the end, I am quite certain it will be exposed as a forgery. It took more than thirty years for Backhouse to be exposed, by an amatuer journalist, and T. J. Wise went his whole professional life, some 40 or so years, before finally being exposed after faking more than fifty first editions.

As Trevor-Roper put it in his study of Backhouse (The Hermit of Beijing which I urge you to read, it's quite fascinating apart from its application to the current case) : "A scholar who has once attempted forgery, and apparently succeeded, can rarely be prevented from trying it again. There is a subtle temptation which leads a man on, from mere disinterested craftsmanship, through a positive delight in his own virtuosity, to the exquisite private satisfaction of deceiving the elect." Whoever did this ossuary must be raising many a glass in private to the learned academic community.

Vorkosigan

[jpholding]

No, he's a smart one. In cases like this, the forgery needs to come to expert attention quietly and right away.

Hmm, not according to SW, and I trust them before I trust you. :smile: Nope. You're just trying to spin out a way that keeps your faith in support. And I doubt if you're expert enough to tell me anything about other forgery cases and their relevance, thank you.

Is Golan a "scholar"? Or do you think someone else forged it? That's another thing -- now you folks have to choose between a rumor that he himself forged it, or the rumor that he bought it on the market a few weeks ago.

It'd be a lot simpler if you just waited, but since you have a faith to promote, I am sure you won't. Meanwhile you will note that I sure don't plug the ossuary on tektonics.org as real. Think about it. :brow:

[Vorkosigan]

[Hmm, not according to SW, and I trust them before I trust you. :smile: Nope. You're just trying to spin out a way that keeps your faith in support. And I doubt if you're expert enough to tell me anything about other forgery cases and their relevance, thank you.

<shrug> The closest I've come to expertise is a bit of Song dynasty porcelain collecting which I gave up, due to the large number of fakes out there and the ethical problems of collecting artifacts.

Is Golan a &quot;scholar&quot;? Or do you think someone else forged it? That's another thing -- now you folks have to choose between a rumor that he himself forged it, or the rumor that he bought it on the market a few weeks ago.

Or the rumor that he and Lemaire had it for months, and tried to hock it to a collector who spotted it for a fake and rejected it. Rumors flying everywhere. I have no idea who forged this thing. We don't have to "choose" anything. All we need do is note that it is a highly suspicious object from a man whose possessions include an artifact forgery mill.

It'd be a lot simpler if you just waited, but since you have a faith to promote, I am sure you won't.

<confused> What faith is that? I'm about as far from having a faith as it is possible to get.

Meanwhile you will note that I sure don't plug the ossuary on tektonics.org as real. Think about it.

I know, JP. Your restraint is legendary.

Vorkosigan

[jpholding]

Yo Vork,

Or the rumor that he and Lemaire had it for months, and tried to hock it to a collector who spotted it for a fake and rejected it. Rumors flying everywhere. I have no idea who forged this thing. We don't have to &quot;choose&quot; anything. All we need do is note that it is a highly suspicious object from a man whose possessions include an artifact forgery mill.

Maybe all you need, I guess. :brow: Funny how I sound more like a freethinker here. As an aside, a friend in Boston area will be going to a talk by SW Monday and I have asked him to get the latest on these subjects. I'll update if anything new comes out.

&lt;confused&gt; What faith is that? I'm about as far from having a faith as it is possible to get.

You're loyal to a position, are you not?