Questions for Closed View Theists Only Please.

[Xmansmommy]

As I've been reading and studying my bible to understand God's foreknowledge, many questions have come to mind. Some I have asked of Open View Theists only. I also would like some input from Closed View Theists on some issues as well. So this thread will be dedicated to those who hold this position. Thanks in advance for your participation in this thread. For starters I would like to address...

Psalms:139:1: O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

Psalms:139:23: Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

Jer:17:10: I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ro:8:27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

My first question would be, If God knows all things why does He need or desire to search the hearts of men? These are a few examples of scripture dealing with this issue. For those who don't know anything or much about me, I am sincerely seeking to understand this issue. Please if you would, keep your answers simple as I don't understand many terms used by Christians to describe God. Again, thanks in advance.


But for Grace,
Linda

[India]

Well, I'm not OV, so I guess that makes me Closed View. :smile:

My take on those passages is that "search" is a figurative term. If you read the last chapters of Job, for instance, there's a lot of figurative, poetic language about God - ch. 38 talks about the sea being shut up behind doors, God's storehouses of hail and snow, etc. I take references to God "searching the heart" in the same light. God is using language that we'll understand, just as Job 38 isn't a science lesson but a vivid picture of God's strength, wisdom, ability, etc.

[Hitch]

Ps 26:2
2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.
(KJV)

Why?

Does this imply that God might be surprised because He was ignorant?

Ps 94:11
11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
(KJV)


The Psalmist dosnt think so.

But the 'proving' is not for the benefit of God; but the believer.




2 Pet 1:10
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
(KJV)


Confidense ,steadfastness, courage and maturity come from passing through trials,,,proofs. God showing through events ordered in our lives something about our selves.


So when the Psalmist says :


Ps 139:23-24
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
(KJV)

It is because he understands that God already knows and in Fatherly care will correct him. Or was the Psalmist kidding when he told us God knows the thoughts of man?

Take care

Hitch

[doogieduff]

xmansmommy,

Don't let hitch fool you into making it seem as easy as he wants you to think it is. His post is foolish and he didn't solve anything or even answer your question.

Hitch said,

Or was the Psalmist kidding when he told us God knows the thoughts of man?

Of course the psalmist wasn't kidding. But hitch now wants you to believe that God has known the thoughts of man from the beginning of time or that God just knows them because He is God. Well, no, you already answered your own question. Ask hitch HOW God knows the thoughts of man. And you have already shown us all that He knows them by "searching the hearts of men."

[Xmansmommy]

Hey Doogie,
I appreciate your comments and I thank you for them. I am not easily fooled however. I am studying this issue for myself and at times would like to ask my questions of those who hold to each view. I have a thread entitled "Questions of OVT's Only Please" that perhaps you might be interested in. Would love to have you participate. I have many questions. :xmm:

[GrayPilgrim]

XMM--

“Briefly” on Psalm 139--I could send you my complete 20 page paper if you like, as it is I will reproduce some of my arguments on the relevant sections.

Within Book Five of the Psalms, the final Davidic collection (138-45) responds to the despair of Psalm 137. In 137, Yahweh is aloof. Israel’s glory is gone. This song about Zion is not a Song of Zion, which were joyful songs. The imprecation is perhaps the most repugnant to modern sensibilities. Yet it places in focus the despair of these people who have been uprooted by Yahweh’s wrath. This collection not only concludes the response to Psalm 89’s charge against Yahweh, but it concludes the fifth collection. In this, we find God’s proclamation of his complete fidelity to David and thus his fidelity to all.

Now as we move to Psalm 139, we have placed it in its larger co-text. Moreover, we have shown how the structure of the Psalter directs us to understand the individual psalm within the final Davidic collection. This superscription indicates that this is the nation’s desire, for when a Davidic king calls out he represents the nation before Yahweh. The king is the link between Yahweh and the people. As they cried for Moses to represent them on Mt. Sinai, so in later times they wanted a king to represent them before God. Therefore, the absence of a Davidic King came to symbolize Yahweh’s rejection of Israel and Judah. The king was seen as the channel through whom Yahweh would bestow blessing and righteousness and so his absence was covenantally problematic. Consequently, a crisis for the Davidic Monarchy was a disaster for the nation as a whole. It is under this rubric that we now turn to the psalm proper.

The psalmist longs for the previous intimate relationship he had with Yahweh. In the first segment, vv. 1-18, the psalmist describes the previous relationship he had with Yahweh. In the second segment, vv. 19-24, the psalmist pleads for Yahweh to return for the Davidide* is innocent of any offense. He makes his plea with the eschatological hope that Yahweh will vindicate the righteous and carry out his promised judgment on the wicked, who have subverted his people. One can see the unity of the psalm based on the inclusio of חקר (It means to explore someone’s convictions (HALOT I:347-8). It is found nine times with Yahweh as the subject, i.e. Jer 17:10; Psa 139:1, 23; Job13:9, 28:27; Sir 42:18; 1QM 16:13; 4Q392 1:4 (Clines Dictionary of Classical Hebrew III:304).) and ידע (The six occurrences in this psalm help to denote the nature of the relationship between Yahweh and the Davidide.) in verses 1 and 23. Now we will examine the two segments of the psalm to develop this argument.


As we look at vv. 1-18, we see that one can divide the psalm further between verses 12 and 13. A series of six merisms frame verses 1-12. These six merisms form a framework in which we can view the psalmist’s relationship with Yahweh. They denote a spatial relationship with regard to Yahweh. They indicate that wherever the psalmist had gone Yahweh was with him. They also indicate the impossibility of escape from Yahweh’s presence by the psalmist. (It could be argued that verse 12 contains a merism; however it does not set two opposites in apposition like the other six occurrences.)

However, within this paean we already note strain between Yahweh and the psalmist. In verse 2, the psalmist claims that Yahweh understands his thoughts from afar. In Psalm 138, the psalmist speaks of the bipolar reality structure in which Yahweh cares for the lowly but knows the prideful person from afar. This juxtaposition with Psalm 139 indicates that Yahweh has something against the Davidide, which the Davidide denies.

Another possible complaint occurs in verse 5. In this verse, the psalmist states “you have collected me…” One possible translation of this verse is that God has besieged the Davidide. This reading is consistent with the 34 other occurrences of this verb when humans are the object (Exo. 23:22, 32:4; Deut. 2:9, 19, 14:25, 20:12, 19; Jdg. 9:31; 1 Sam. 23:8; 2 Sam. 11:1, 20:15; 1 Ki. 7:15, 15:27, 16:17, 20:1; 2 Ki. 5:23, 6:24f, 12:11, 16:5, 17:5, 18:9, 24:11; 1 Chr. 20:1; Est. 8:11; Ps. 139:5; Son. 8:9; Isa. 21:2, 29:3; Jer. 21:4, 9, 32:2, 37:5, 39:1; Ezek. 4:3, 5:3; Dan. 1:1). This reading views Yahweh’s action as “…paralyzing [not] liberating,” (Weiser 803.) However, a closer reading of the co-text might indicate a better potential reading of the text. For instance in 2 Kings 12:11, Jehoash under Jehoiada’s direction had ordered a collection for Temple repairs. Whenever the collection boxes began to fill they would secure (ויצרו) the offerings. This reading taken in conjunction with קנית (HALOT “to acquire or buy” (III:1111-1113)) in verse 13 indicates that Yahweh was the guardian of the Davidide. Before transitioning to verses 13-18, we need to conclude the argument of 1-12. The Davidide looks back on his previous relationship with Yahweh; Yahweh knew all about him and stood about him as his guardian. Yet now Yahweh regards him from afar.

Now as we look to vv. 13-18, the text has many text critical and lexical intricacies. This break does not shift the pursuit of the Davidide, i.e. he is not turning to praise Yahweh after failing in his attempt to flee from him. This reading fails to see the relational links in verses 1-12, and how the Davidide further developed these relational arguments in verses 13-18.

First, we need to discern the usage of קנית in this passage. All modern translations and commentators render it as “created/formed” and thus invest this passage with creation language. However, taken in conjunction with verse 5 this seems unconvincing. The semantic range of קנה means to acquire, and when it refers to a person it means to acquire a slave (cf. Gen 39:1). Moreover, when is used in a theological context it denotes Yahweh’s redemption of Israel, here particularized in the Davidide. Furthermore, as Schmidt aptly points out, “It is highly disputed, however, whether the meaning “to create” (in NWSem., Ug., Arab.?) is attested in addition to acquire, possess,” etc.” Even though he does later argue for its usage as “to create” here, Deut 32:6 and Prov. 8:22, it seems that this driven more by preconceived theological ideas than by textual and lexical considerations.


[I will skip down now to the repetition of search and know]

Now let us examine the petition. The plea of the Davidide shows his desire to return to the previous relationship he had with Yahweh. This is communicated by the repetition of חקר and ידע in the imperative. The Davidide realizes that freedom from this bipolar structure will only come when the eschatological consummation occurs and Yahweh destroys the men of blood. He also knows that he must be tested by Yahweh in the here and now so that he may stand in the judgment. For this reason he petitions Yahweh to test him and know his “grievous thoughts”. This morpheme denotes thoughts that cause pain and dwell deep inside of a person. Knowledge of these thoughts is not enough; the Davidide knows that these thoughts must not remain if he is going to follow in the way of wisdom. Before solving the issue, he seeks further testing. In verse 24, he asks God to examine him to see if the Davidide has any grievous way in him. It is only after this three-fold examination has occurred that the Davidide seeks guidance.

So we see that David’s prayer is that there might be a new evaluation of him after David has seen that there is no longer the intimacy of verses 1-12 and does not see what sin he has commited like the men in the imprecation of 19-22. So David is in effect saying evaluate me and show me my error that I might repent and return to that intimate relationship of long ago (which is a better translation than "the way everlasting" )

In the full paper I make a much more prolonged argument for my position based on the text.

GP

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 04:47 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46666#post46666)
doogieduff:

xmansmommy,

Don't let hitch fool you into making it seem as easy as he wants you to think it is. His post is foolish and he didn't solve anything or even answer your question.

Hitch said,



Of course the psalmist wasn't kidding. But hitch now wants you to believe that God has known the thoughts of man from the beginning of time or that God just knows them because He is God. Well, no, you already answered your own question. Ask hitch HOW God knows the thoughts of man. And you have already shown us all that He knows them by "searching the hearts of men."
LMAO

[Xmansmommy]

Hitch, as the thread starter I would ask that you keep those type of comments private please. I didn't start this thread as a debate. As you well know, I have a thread dedicated to OVT's only and I would like to keep this thread on topic. Thank you in advance for your consideration. I do appreciate your comments.

In Him,
Linda

[Xmansmommy]

GP, I truly appreciate you taking the time to give such a well thought out response. I must say however, that it is so far over my head that I can't make much sense of it. Please don't be offended by that. It's just that I need things broken down more simplisticly. The problem is me, not you. So perhaps you could break it down and explain your response to me as if I were a child. And if not, I understand that as well. Please forgive my ignorance.

But for Grace,
Linda

[JesusFreakVOM]

linda, in my humble opinion, when GOD speaks of searching mans heart, what he is doing is speaking in a manner that us humans can relate to.if he only spoke at GODs level , we wouldnt understand anything. :)

[Xmansmommy]

Thank you Darryl, your thoughts are much appreciated. That seems to be the answer I usually get from those that hold to the Closed View of God. I suppose the problem I have with that answer is for instance in verse 23 of Psalms 139...."try me and know my thoughts." These were a few passages that I have trouble with. I still have many more questions but suppose I was looking for more discussion on this particular one before moving on. Again, thanks for your input. Looking forward to hearing more from you. :smile:

In His Grace,
Linda

[Hitch]

03-28-2003 @ 04:47 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46666#post46666)
doogieduff:

xmansmommy,

Don't let hitch fool you into making it seem as easy as he wants you to think it is. His post is foolish and he didn't solve anything or even answer your question.

Hitch said,



Of course the psalmist wasn't kidding. But hitch now wants you to believe that God has known the thoughts of man from the beginning of time or that God just knows them because He is God. Well, no, you already answered your own question. Ask hitch HOW God knows the thoughts of man. And you have already shown us all that He knows them by "searching the hearts of men."

Ps 33:13-16
13 The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.
16 There is no king saved by the multitude of an host: a mighty man is not delivered by much strength.
(KJV)


Its really not very hard.

Hitch

[HemofHisGarment]

04-09-2003 @ 01:19 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=60477#post60477)
Xmansmommy:
...verse 23 of Psalms 139...."try me and know my thoughts.&quot...
My 2 cents (though only worth a penny) :lol: ~ In our prayers, we seek to be made pure, to be rid of our less polished elements. We seek to be 'tried' and examined according to His standard. Of course, Providence cares for & directs us with forethought; yet we still seek after His care in our daily devotionals.

Adrianne

[GrayPilgrim]

Basically in a nutshell my post attemtped to say:


David had had close intamcay with God
Something happened to interfere with this intamacy
David Longed for the old intamacy
The petetion has multiple parts

Slay the wicked
Search my heart
See that I have not trod their path
David sees that only through testing and discipline can the old relationship be restored



Thus when seen as a prayer Psalm 139 does not pose a problem with the Closed View.

GP