Interview with Jesus Muhammad-Ali [Archive]

dizzle

April 27th 2004, 09:08 PM

Interview with Jesus Muhammad-Ali

by Bob Gersztyn "fototune"

12-24-02

Note - This piece is presented not as an endorsement whatsoever of the points of view contained therein but as an educational tool so that others may learn about another belief system. TheologyWeb member Fototune offered us this opportunity to use his resources as an interviewer for The Door Magazine to present an interview that has not yet been published elsewhere.

Jesus (pronounced like the Spanish Hey-soos) Muhammad-Ali is the Grandson of Elijah Mohammad, who was the founding leader of The Nation of Islam in the USA. Also know as Black Muslims, the movement gained worldwide attention during the turbulent 1960's. Two of its most famous members were the late Malcom X and the heavyweight champion boxer Muhammad Ali. Jesus was raised in his grandfather's house and worked closely with him until his death in 1975. His uncle Wallace D. Muhammad joined Malcom X, to form an opposing faction within the Nation of Islam, and eventually became the successor to Elijah Muhammad, after his death. His father was the contract manager for the great Muhammad Ali, and Jesus has remained a close friend of the champ over the years.

The impact of the events of September 11, 2001 prompted Jesus to articulate his position and the teachings of the Nation of Islam, here in North America at least, concerning these events. He did so in a book bearing the title "The Evolution of the Nation of Islam", which can be purchased through www.jmamasterprints.com or Amazon.com . While Minister Louis Farrakhan currently holds the position of leadership for the Nation of Islam in the USA, he does not enjoy the support of all Black Muslims, Jesus Muhammad-Ali included. The Door Magazine had contributing editor Bob Gersztyn conduct two separate telephone interviews with Brother Jesus during the December holiday season of 2002. The topics discussed were everything from how the Muslim community feels about the events of 9/11, to the theology of suicide bombers and
Israel's right to exist as a nation.

The Door: Exactly how did the nation of Islam come into existence, here in America?

Brother Jesus: Through the teachings of the Arabian born Master Fard Muhammad. He was born in Arabia on February 26th, 1877, which is prior to the Saudi kingdom being established later on in the1920's. So it was he who came here to this country, and as a cloth merchant began to sow the seeds of the faith. He began to develop a structure and rented different halls out to communicate the Islamic message. My grandfather as well as my grandmother were invited to come to listen to one of his lectures. I mentioned this in my book The Evolution of the Nation Islam, and it's well established in other books that have been written about the organization, its
establishment and how it came to take root in the black community.

The Door: : How did your grandfather become the leader of the nation of Islam?

Brother Jesus : Master Fard had a little handbook that he published, and it said in the handbook, that if you bring three devils heads you would be given $10,000 and a free trip to Mecca. At the same time he referred to white people, or Caucasians, as the blue eyed devil, and the ambiguity of these two concepts seems to have crossed over and it was taken literally. At that time Fard's primary minister was an African American named Ghulam Ali. Ghulam was not clear with the believers as to the difference between the allegory and the physical reality of this, and consequentially one of the members brought a head in a bag. It was some poor guy he decapitated, with the belief that this was the first of his three heads. Therefore he was going to get the $10,000 and the free trip to Mecca. It's a very gruesome aspect of the early days, and we paid a very heavy price for that, because Fard was hence sent his deportation papers for inciting unrest in the Negro community. It stated this in his deportation papers. So my grandfather wasappointed to lead the Nation of Islam after that. One the things the that my grandfather always made a point of mentioning prior to letting out a meeting was do nothing to anyone that you would not have done to yourself. And it was a very strong point of my grandfathers message, in the tenure of his leadership. This was to emphasize that when we are fighting the serpent we have to be careful not to become like the serpent. So that any kind of abuse that could be pointed to, as it applies to what our people went through over the fifteen generations of slavery, and the aftermath thereafter in the south does not justify reciprocation. This is because we will be judged by God in the same way that they're judged. So just because they mistreated us that's no excuse for us to seek in our hearts the desire to mistreat anybody. That point was made profoundly clear by my grandfather.

The Door: The teachings of the Nation of Islam claim that the Caucasian race was grafted from the Black race by a man named Yacob.

Brother Jesus: This was a concept and a historical belief that was part and parcel of Master Fard's teachings about evolution. He spoke of how the Caucasian's were a grafted race of people, and then went on to say that in the word Europe, EU stands for hillsides and ROPE stands for roped in. Basically this is saying that the Caucasian race was excluded to that part of the world. Just on the basis of population alone world wide percentages show this. He's saying that the White race itself was a created race or a grafted race. In ancient times there was a man named Yacob who had the vision of creating a race of people that was unlike his own, but were grafted from his. They would eventually became independent with their own rulers and governors. Yacob noticed that in the Black germ there were four different divisions of skin pigmentation. When observing the skin color of offspring 50% were on the same level, 25% were darker and 25% were lighter. What he began doing was grafting the lighter to the lighter. Over a period of many generations, using this technique, an entire new race was produced.

The Door: So what you're saying is that experiments with cross breeding, through marriage, much the same as what is done with livestock today, produced the White race from the Black.

Brother Jesus: Yes, similar to that, through inter-marriage. So light skinned individuals inter-married with other light skinned people, until an entire new race was produced. If we look at the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, from 1,400 years ago it's clearly indicated that Allah created us as different tribes and nations, so that we would know one another. The terms tribes, nations and race are often interchangeable. When we refer to others as belonging to a particular tribe or race it's not to encumber them, but it's so we can identify them. So in that context the Prophet was saying that he did not promulgate or promote the idea of interracial marriage, to the extent where you're going to in some way encumber another race, through marriage or any other means.

The Door: It sounds like you don't believe in inter-racial marriages.

Brother Jesus: To answer that question bluntly, no! The answer is no! My grandfather did not believe in inter-racial marriages because he considered it a form of genocide, as far as White people are concerned. If a Black person marries a White person, the baby is not going to be White. So it's a form of genocide. Therefore if we want respect, we have to give respect. He said that we have enough variations of hue within our own race, so should we have to cross over the line? Every grandfather wants to look at his grandson and see a reflection of himself evolving. So bi-racial inter-marriage is not respectful. The basic foundation of his religion and its resulting teachings were founded upon mutual respect.

The Door: What did you think of Spike Lee's depiction of the Nation of Islam and your grandfather in his movie "Malcom X"?

Brother Jesus: I sent a copy of The Evolution of the Nation of Islam when it was in the galley state and suggested to him that the movie have a sort of sequel. I asked him to return the book copy if he wasn't interested in it, but he told me that he would keep the copy for future reference. He said that they're not working on anything like that right now, but one day it could be a bridge that will be crossed. As far as my feelings about the movie itself are concerned, I feel as though it was slanted. I felt that there was a bigger picture to be shown, and that was one of the inspirational points for me to write my book. It deals with the evolution of the Nation of Islam from the present all the way back to 1,400 years ago when the Prophet Muhammad and his companions began their expansionist exploits. You have to look at this thing as a part of a broad continuum. You can't just take a slice out of the middle of the entire story and expect to be able to get a true perspective or any accurate insights into the movement itself. In some ways I even
provided some level of conclusiveness when it comes to explaining what came to befall us, and the disaster in New York back in September 11th 2001. Because I felt that too to be something that is part & parcel of the motion of the Ocean so to speak, as it applies to the evolution, as well as the many dimensions of the religion. So yes I do feel as though as far as the Spike Lee movie is concerned, it was slanted to just deal with a very narrow aspect, and it was slanted seemingly against my Grandfather in many ways.

The Door: The opinion that I concluded after watching Malcolm X was that he rejected your Grandfather and began his own faction of Islam. He was then assassinated by individuals who were supportive followers of Elijah Muhammad, even though he wasn't involved.

Brother Jesus: I'm not going to try to paint anybody as having Halos and Angel wings involved in that situation, because there's the reality of what happened. First of all you said the followers of my grandfather. Many of Malcolm's followers were former followers of my grandfather. My personal closeness to my grandfather allowed me to share his confidence, and
he confided to me one of the things that was most troubling to him, about the entire situation with Malcolm. My grandfather considered himself to be much like a Shepherd of his people. He's the one who reached into the prison and began to correspond with Malcolm, to the point where Malcolm was brought into the fold, and then put in a position of leadership and
responsibility. However, there's a greater amount of responsibility that goes along with leadership. My grandfather expressed a great sense of responsibility when it came to the role he played in grooming Malcolm to national prominence from the jail house. To the point that he would have grown such a person as Malcolm X, who was a social reject and in a state of
rehabilitation in prison, to the point that he put him in a position of leadership and influence. He said, if Black people follow Malcolm's lead he's going to lead a lot of our people to be killed and murdered. This was his primary sense of concern. The fact that he had groomed this man to the point where people began to listen to him. He felt that Malcolm would take that gauntlet of attention and authority and then seek to lead his people to be murdered in the street. If you study Malcolm X's (El Hajji Malik Shabazz) philosophy as it came to be, it was a rebellion of the underclass. He was training young people how to use arms and everything else necessary for an armed rebellion. America was not going to tolerate that. I don't care what he called himself or who he thought himself to be.

The Door: Did Malcolm X influence the Black Panthers?

Brother Jesus: My understanding here, is that the Black Panthers under Huey Newton were already instigating the burn baby burn era, by the time that Malcolm X took the position that he did.I'm not going to saddle him with that, although in some ways he joined them, in their outcry for social and cultural reform at the point of a gun. He made himself a social pariah in the eyes of many of the affluent Blacks, as well as Whites, and they distanced themselves from him. At first I couldn't understand why my grandfather felt himself particularly married to Malcolm. Then later I realized that it was because he was the one who groomed him for National prominence. Even though he would take that prominence and use it in such an adverse way.

The Door: Did the faction that Malcolm X controlled evolve separately from the Nation of Islam?

Brother Jesus: It did. Malcolm was seeking, or was in the formative stages of developing a Black nationalist party. But it in no way influenced or became an offshoot of the Nation of Islam, as it applies to my grandfather. Other than in the sense that my Uncle, Wallace D Muhammad, was one of Malcolm's supporters when he stepped away from my Grandfather. When my Grandfather passed (have mercy on him), then at that point his son Wallace D took over as leader of the Nation of Islam. His edicts were accepted as it applies to the faith. Many of which were shared by Malcolm X, which is in his autobiography. He speaks about the reverence and respect that he has for Wallace D. In some ways you could say that the position that Wallace D took, when taking the gauntlet after my Grandfather passed, in some ways may have carried on some of the non-violent ideological views of Malcolm X. If you want to put it that way. Without question my Uncle Wallace D did influence Malcolm X. He states that in his autobiography.

The Door: How did Louis Farrakhan become the leader of the Nation of Islam?

Brother Jesus: Yes, he is the leader of the Nation of Islam. He retained the name. Farrakhan followed my Uncle, Wallace D for two years, after my Grandfather passed on February 25, 1975. Over the course of that 2 years my Uncle changed the name of the organization, several times. So since he changed the name from the Nation of Islam, when Farrakhan got ready to start his resurgence, reconstruction or rebuilding of the Nation of Islam he claimed the name. Because the name had been abandoned. So that's how he was able to get it free and clear.

The Door: So did the organization that your uncle Wallace D create from the nation of Islam continue, and does it still continue today?

Brother Jesus: It exists today. As a matter of fact Farrakan has come back to embrace Wallace D and say that there is some mutual understanding, a mutual sense of direction between the two of them. The problem is that the organization which my uncle led, or should I say inherited from my grandfather, had huge assets. The manuscript speaks about the private Lockheed four engine jetplane, 750,000 Acres of land in Alabama with air conditioned tractors and the like. There were hundreds of businesses around the country and over 200 mosques, which were called temples then, all of which he inherited. Everything has pretty much been reduced to naught under his leadership. My Grandfather had what he called central management. My uncle vacillated or backed way from that approach and said that every mosque, every temple has to stand on it's own feet. Every business has to stand on it's own feet. He brandished that approach and he also disbanded the nation of Islam's FOI (Fruit of Islam), which Farrakhan re-instated. FOI was the driving force, the economic force of the Nation of Islam. Their job was to sell newspapers. In 1974, right before my Grandfather passed, the circulation was up to 950,000 bi-monthly, and the revenues were primarily geared towards the financial ambitions of the organization. It's really like the lifeblood of the organization, as it's referred to in the manuscript.

The Door: Explain the financial relationship, and the resulting problems that exist between the United States and Saudi Arabia, concerning profits from oil production.

Brother Jesus: It initially began during World War I when the American armed forces participated in defeating the Ottoman Empire, in that part of the world. The ideology and idealism of President Woodrow Wilson, at that time, greatly impressed the Saudi people. They then established Aramco, which is an acronym for the Arabian American Oil Company. The
Saudi's agreed to sell the oil to America, while leaving the principle with the federal reserve and just basically deriving whatever income that they required from the interest of the money, as their payment for all oil sales. The 4% interest was still considerable. My book also speaks about how up until 1973, when they formed the cartel, oil was only $2.25 a barrel. That's less that what you pay for bottled water, but even then they left the money on deposit with the Federal Reserve, as the backbone of the US economy. The Saudi throne was established as a 50% representation of the Royal family and 50% representation of the clergy, or the Wahhabi's who helped bring them to power. The Wahhabi's have a long standing objection to the Royal family leaving their money on deposit in this country, and not placing it as the backbone of their own Dinar, which is their currency. That's one of the reasons why I think right now there's some objection relative to that, because the Saudi government itself is faced with a 400 billion dollar debt. When they approached prince Bandar at the Embassy in Washington about this, they stated that he said, the American government is faced with a much greater national debt than we have. He then went on to say how they spent more than a Trillion dollars in the past year or so, trying to improve the economy for the average Saudi national. Osama Bin Laden was born a member of this group of fundamentalists, who object to the Royal family leaving all of their money in the USA. By the last numbers I've heard, the Crown Prince alone, owns 70% of the available stock of City Corp. It's like a government in schism. The Wahhabi's are promoting these Madrassas to the tune of a million students a year. They are taught nothing but the Koran and Sunni fundamentalism, and it's all anti American in nature.

The Door: If the Federal Reserve holds the Saudi's principle, then they must own a very big chunk of the USA.

Brother Jesus: Why do you think that President Bush treats them like such prima donnas? I mean even if they stopped oil production tomorrow the money is represented. At the time of Desert Storm, back in 1991, America spent 660 billion dollars prosecuting that war. Then the US Congress froze $660 billion dollars of Saudi money. If I can freeze 660 billion dollars, that means you must have a bit of it in there already. They took a great deal of scorn and outrage from their people for that. As a matter of fact they took a lot of heat from the Wahhabi's, who said, I thought these guys were such good friends of yours. Usually something like that is not done to anything but a Rouge state. I've been to the middle East at least two or three times since then, and they took serious offense to that. There are also those who leave their money here and are against the Royal family, but they try to get a lot of mileage out of it. In fact Osama Bin Laden was brought aboard because he was a money man. They even made a fictional movie about the subject 15 or 20 years ago. It was called Rollover, with Chris Christoferson and Jane Fonda. The premise was that the Saudi's began rolling their Federal Reserve assets over into gold, which caused an international monetary crisis.

You have to understand something else too, America spent 100 Billion dollars trying to bring peace to the Middle East. Trying to put a cap on that fire's like someone trying to stop the fires that burned in Kuwait after they blew the wells up. I'm just saying this in terms of the situation that you have in Jerusalem. We have not been able to get that thing under wraps. One of the problems it the fact that America has taken on Israel as being their client state for 54 years now.

Today we have CNN and Al Jezeera, who through the satellite dish, enter the houses of hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world. They're saying that these levels of abuse are being played out, much like a trial in the press. They're also saying , well America is the backbone of Israel, when in reality Israel is one of the six largest nuclear powers in the world. They know that Israel isn't going to go wanting for defense, but TV allows them to see them
with infrared sights on Pistols & Rifles that can look through bricks. They see more than just a level of sophistication in the world today, there is a tremendous stewardship, entailed and embodied in all of that. Televisions are like Crystal Balls. Through technology we're almost reduced to be like the Roman Circus. I mean actual blood lust in some cases. One & a half million people were killed in Iraq during Operation Desert Storm. That would take more bombs than were dropped in the 1st and 2nd World War. There were 200,000 killed in Hiroshima & Nagasaki. But 1.5 MILLION killed? We as a nation have a tremendous stewardship that God has placed in our hands, and I'm just asking, are we handling it responsibly, or are we functioning out of trauma? We have to think about these things.

The Door: That would explain why fifteen out of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers were Saudi nationals.

Brother Jesus: There is no doubt about it, they are discontent with the Royal family. They saw how after the Ayatollah Khomeini overthrew the Shah in Iran the CIA reinforced Saddam Hussain to come against him. During that eight year war a million people were lost on each side. During that period of time I was in Dhahran and heard the Ayatollah first hand. His voice inflections were reminiscent of Hitler. The Royal family became terrified of this man. Khomeini had a deep insight, as it applies to the Islamic religion and their culture, plus he was a direct descendent of the prophet Muhammad himself. Ayatollah means "God's manifest evidence". The Saudi Royal family became like prisoners in their own country, because they're terrified of their own citizens. Proof of this can be found in the fact that they hired a mercenary army of nearly 100,000 troops from Pakistan, to make sure that every member of the Royal family had a guard with him at all times. When I walked through the streets of Dhahran and saw people with missing body parts I assumed that they stole something. For those citizens this is an everyday common sight. They live under the Wahhabi fundamentalist's strict interpretation of the Shara law. In Saudi Arabia the Wahhabi sect is tantamount to the church of England, established as 50% of the throne's governing authority, as reflected through an estimated 40,000 strong clergy. With all this in mind, I think that America should have a tear of compassion in their eye, and at least respect the position that the Royal family has taken and is currently taking. When I sat with the translators for the original king they communicated a heartfelt sense of regard for America and its romantic idea of government "of the people, for the people and by the people". One of the translators, who worked on the oil agreement letter for the original king told me that they consider themselves as being sponsors of America, in great part. So I don't think that the Royal family should be criticized. What can they do? As far as the others are concerned, that is the Wahhabi clergy, I don't have any idea how that problem can be resolved. At least this is my understanding of what the problem is.

The Door: With such a tremendous amount of wealth at stake it's easy to understand why the two factions are at odds with each other.

Brother Jesus: The way it looks from the standpoint of the clergy is that the Royal Family doesn't trust their own people, and they're prepared for flight by investing so heavily in this country. What this also says to the Wahabbi clergy is this, America has one of the mightiest military forces on the planet, if someone bothers me I'm going to call Washington on them. So that's how the Royal family is viewed, in regard to how they handle the stewardship of all this money. It's a huge fortune, and even if the Oil got cut off tomorrow, they would certainly not be impacted. The 4% interest is considered low, but then when you consider that you only get 11/2% at your local bank, 4% is substantial. So the Saudi's have investments in and with the United States. They could have purchased a couple of pages in the Wall Street Journal and explained all this. Instead they use the Tarzan stance by beating their chests and complaining that their rights have been violated. The reason they don't want to expose their financial standings is because they buy America's foreign policy part and parcel, which they are not in agreement with, in many parts of the Western world. They would run the risk of exposing this hypocritical contradiction.

The Door: I'd like you to elaborate on your assertion that Jesus Christ attended what was the ancient version of Alezhar University, in Cairo, Egypt.

Brother Jesus: The Bible itself points to the fact that Joseph was visited in a dream by an Angel & told to send Mary and the child to Egypt on a donkey. So that gives placement enough, as far as the Bible is concerned, to support that end. Again when Jesus reached 12 years of age he was speaking to scholars and they were in total amazement at his wisdom, that once again placed him. The history that we acquired came from Master Fard and he says that his history came from what was acquired under the Ottoman's. It was the history that they had from tracking him from the other side. I really don't find any sense of conflict in these accounts. The Bible was somewhat nebulous about Jesus going into the wilderness for 40 days & 40 nights and living off the herbs. Then when he came back wearing holy robes, they didn't say where he got the Holy robes from out in the wilderness, except through Farad's interpretation which is reflected here. It gives you some ideas about the possibility of lending some weight to where he said he went back to where he went to school, and he came back wearing these robes, and then the Pharisees became acutely aware of the fact this was not a man like his cousin, eating wild honey & locusts. This man was a man of knowledge, and therefore he posed a serious threat to them. I know that it picks up stitches of time, it adds to the fabric, it does not in any way conflict. They say he's riding a Donkey on Palm Sunday, but they don't say where he got the Donkey from, or where he got robes from. It does not in any way contradict the Bible. So therefore it's plausible. This is the teaching of my Grandfather.

The Door: I found it interesting that your grandfather used both The Bible and The Koran in his teachings regularly.

Brother Jesus: Oh yes. He always said that he referred to the 7th Angel who reached both hands up to heaven as indicative of embracing the old way and the new way. Abraham was the father of two nations. He said the Arab's were descendants of Haagar and Ishmael. Then we have Isaac's offspring, which established the Jewish strain or approach. His teacher, Master Fard, had clear liberty to change his name, because he changed the names of most of his disciples, but he never changed the name my grandfather carried. Which is Elijah and means Jehovah is God. In our religion there's no conflict with that, because Allah refers to God's attributes. So one does not contradict the other.

The Door: Could you elaborate on why your Grandfather had to spend five years in a Federal penitentiary during WWII?

Brother Jesus: First they said he was arrested for draft evasion. Then they tried to say that he was guilty of sedition. But they only used the sedition because he was slightly too old for the draft. But I understand that in the course of the time that he was in Millings, Michigan, serving his time, President Roosevelt sent him a message. He was told that they wanted to get him off of the streets, because teaching the way he was teaching was going to be dangerous for his life, because we were in the middle of the war. So they could not permit him to continue. In fact they went and arrested his followers as well. They referred to them as being pro-Jap, because if you look at my Grandfather's features in some of the early pictures his nationality isn't aparent. Anyway they used that to say that they weren't sure of his loyalty. Even though he was born in Georgia it played well for their purposes.

The Door: Explain Hitler's use of the Zen Swastika.

Brother Jesus: He first mentioned how all the Jewish people seemed to have all the White Collar, and Blue Collar jobs, and everybody else is digging potatoes with their hands on farms and various places. That was the weapon and the motivation as it applied to the Zen Swastika. Zen is a 5,000 year old philosophy that reaches deep into the past, back to the genesis of all the temples of Zen in Japan and China. One of the fundamental concepts involved is that if an enemy is using a weapon on you, you turn it around on him. So Hitler used the Jews to create unrest by pointing out to the German people that the Jews all seemed to gravitate towards white collar jobs. Then he went to the point of invoking a religious premise, by stating that the Pharisees sought to bring Christ to shame and disgrace. That's what the Crucifix was basically designed to do. He said that they wanted to prove that Christ would not be saved by God if they put him on a Cross. This was supposed to be some kind of a proof, but at the same time bring him to shame and disgrace. So then he turned the same philosophy around on the Jewish people and said, well let's see if God is going to save you. And by the same statement of insanity he commenced to annihilate them. As you notice they were to get the support of the Japanese, and this Swastika came from Japan.

The Door: What is the teaching that Master Fard had about the Mother ship? And is that something that is still taught today?

Brother Jesus: It is. Yes it's a myth or belief that has a level of investment in it. That belief and that ship does in fact still exist. As expressed in the book I talk about the psychological sense of ventilation of relief that is to given to the followers, by no longer carrying the weight on their shoulders, that they have to avenge the hurt and aggression that has come against their people. Because God is going to take care of that. Either through God, or through this ship, it is going to somehow avenge those aggressions as it applies to that. What my Grandfather always made clear was that a lot of people know about this philosophy, or know about this myth of the ship, but some of them they skip over it. He said America is a young country. You got China, which has a 5,000 year old culture. You have Iraq, which dates back to Babylon and the Persians. What I'm saying is if you have countries with 5,000 year old histories, then by comparison America is basically a very young country. And my Grandfather often times pointed to that and he'd say I'll never put another country above my own country. He said America can change, they can grow. They have a lot of room for growth and change. And as a matter of fact he spoke about how as far as this government is concerned, they're really considered to be one of the most Islamic governments on the planet. Because it was designed by and architected by Muslim's. That's what he taught us. It was by the Moor's slaves, which were Muslims who were stolen, and they were not put in shackles. They helped the founding fathers to architect this government, in the form of which it is today. And he said, there's nothing wrong with this government. He says it's just a matter of living up to the creed of the government, as far as what it espouses.

The Door: I noticed in the book where you mentioned a belief in re-incarnation. Would you elaborate on that?

Brother Jesus: I did not say I believe in re-incarnation, and I'm not saying that I don't. But I went into explaining it in its proper context. In the terms of what we understand, through studying other cultures and languages, we know how they view re-incarnation as it applies to our mission here, and the sea of souls which exists in our subconscious mind. When my Grandfather spoke or taught he would try to always speak to a person in their highest nature. It says in the Koran, don't kill the fields of a parent, that's going to reap a bitter harvest for both the parent and child. So we want to till the fields of character. In the actual quotation from the Holy Koran, it says that wives are given to you as tillers. This is the way in which I'm explaining it, it gives you further detail and reference as to what is being referred to. The type of reincarnation that I'm talking about is illustrated in an African song popularized on the radio around 1961. The Lion Sleeps Tonight sang about the Lion in the jungle, in the mighty jungle the lion sleeps tonight. This refers to a great leader that's asleep within the people. So we're talking about reincarnation in that sense. That this great person is what you'll probably find when the individual steps forward, and he'll look a whole lot like someone who stepped forward many hundreds or thousands of years ago. There is a similarity that exists there in the same way as it applies to a finger print. This is because of the nature of thought, and mind, as it applies to the flesh. Western thought is different, they have an entirely different interpretation of that word, which makes it a very subjective word relative to the way that it's being used.

The Door: What are your feelings and The Nation of Islam's feelings about Israel and it's right to exist as a nation?

Brother Jesus: When you say my feelings and The Nation of Islam's, we have to make a clarification. In terms of my feelings on the subject I have to point out that The Nation of Islam that I represent, and the thinking that I represent is born out of my Grandfather's. I spent 16 to 20 hours a day at his side before he passed, as part of his internal security, and my closeness to him gave me an opportunity to identify with my Grandfather's philosophy of The Nation of Islam. Now the direction in which the nation of Islam has been taken down the road for the past 25 years, under minister Farrakhan, and the nation of Islam which is today commonly identified with by the use of that name, I do not in no way seek to speak for them. But if you ask me the question I can gladly respond to that.

The Door: Please do.

Brother Jesus: You say my thinking on the middle East as it applies specifically to which situation? Are we talking about Saddam or Israel?

The Door: Israel itself.

Brother Jesus: I spent about 6 weeks in Haifa back in 1973 right after the Yom Kippur war. I really have a hard time listening to what people tell me about some place without experiencing it myself, so I felt the need to go over there. As I understand it they're planning to put a 220 mile barbed wire fence and trench forming a border between the Palestinian and the Israeli people. From my understanding nothing is more sacred than human life. And if that's going to safeguard human life, then I'd like to see that go forward. Division in this case separates the bodies from one another where they can't interface and express their sense of insane outrage. It's hard for me to describe it in any other way. I think that's one of the most recent developments that has been entertained. I was listening to senator Lieberman this morning who is in Palestine. He was saying that he felt as though the kind of suffering that the Palestinian's are having to endure are human rights violations. In the case of Iraq, they're saying that the Iraqi people don't support Saddam Hussain and his oppressive regime. Then they're saying that they want to try and bring
an end to it for humanitarian reasons. I know the Palestinian people, they're under a lot of oppression, in terms of what they're having to endure, as a people too, as far as the human rights violations are concerned it's very terrible. I know that there's a Hadith concerning this, and it says that outright slaughter is better than oppression. We don't support any kind of oppressive conditions under which people have to live. If it takes the creation of an artificial barrier to keep them apart, then so be it. I know that many of the Princes have given as much as hundred million dollars at one time. I think that Sheik Zayid of The United Arab Emirates gave more than one hundred million dollars and king Fahad gave more than half a billion dollars towards those settlements for the Palestinian people. So surely they should be able to find some levels of comfort.

The Door: But the bottom line is, does Israel have the right to exist?

Brother Jesus: The bottom line! Does Israel have a right to exist? I don't really think that that's a matter of consensus. I don't think that a question like that is a matter of consensus. I don't think that there was a consensus drawn as it applies to the Indians being put on reservations over here. I mean, I don't think America, or the White House, goes out to ask anybody if everybody agrees to the fact that we should occupy this land. I don't want to in any way say something that is supposed to be like the stamp of approval, to say this is right and that's wrong. But you're asking me does it have a right to exist?

The Door: It has existed as a nation since 1948 and currently controls a piece of land in Palestine, which it shares with the Palestinian people. Since the Jews and Palestinians are both Semites they share a common heritage. They both have roots in the same geographical location. Right now Israel exists and the issue between the Palestinian's and Israel are over who is going to control the geography. If Israel relinquished all control and said okay, we'll live here under the Palestinian government. I'm sure Palestinians would say, Great! But with the position where Israel has it's own government, even though some Palestinian's may be part of that elected government, they are not in control. Isn't that what the issue is, as far as suicide bombers are concerned?

Brother Jesus: I think the suicide bomber issue is addressed by the barbed wire borders. As well as screening those who would come across. We can have a lot of idealistic beliefs that we want to function under, but we have to be realistic. In our religion we sang in a battle, " Allah is the bearer of the victory". He didn't give it to the Palestinians. I mean as blunt, and thorny, and razor wired as it might be viewed in accepting that, that's the fact. So I really don't think that there's a whole lot more to say on that. As the word "Ayatola" means "God's manifest evidence", I can not give the Israeli's the authority, but obviously God has done that already. So what are we talking about here?

The Door: How about your relationship with the Great Muhammad Ali, heavyweight boxing champion of the world.

Brother Jesus: I've always had a very good relationship with Ali. He's been like a brother to me. I don't mean just by sharing common virtues, but also in so many ways personally. My father was his contract manager for 15 years. It was the influence of the Nation of Islam that made Ali the first fighter to ever earn a million dollars in the ring. Everybody knows that the mob controlled the fight game up until about that time. Even Sonny Liston who Ali won the championship from, they say was a mob controlled fighter. So the fact that he had the backing and the insulation represented by the Nation of Islam, in a person like my grandfather, who's son was the contract manager, made the mob basically say that they weren't looking for a war. So when they made certain demands as to how much Ali wanted, that's how he wound up making a million dollars. He was the first man to ever make a million dollars in the ring. So the relationship between my father and Ali was bonded, if not galvanized, and I traveled along with Ali and my Father. However, my relationship with Ali was never subjective. Because of my grandfather's being who he was, and my having a background, as it applies to the religion, and a command and understanding of that to the level in which I do, praise God! You know, it was always one of respect.

The Door: What was your motivation for writing "The Evolution of the Nation of Islam"?

Brother Jesus: I originally put it together as a treatment rather than a book. Then after 9/11 I felt an urgent need to present something to non Muslim American's about the Muslim religion, to give them an understanding of it in general, because many of us take our religion in different ways. I also wanted to explain the history of America's economic relationship with the Saudi government. My own understanding on the subject came through a gentleman by the name of Muhammad Al Mana, who was the translator of the original king. When I first went to Saudi Arabia in 1968 he adopted me almost like in a father son like relationship, even though it was only for a few days. He did so again when I visited in 1981. His insight came from the fact that he was the one who received the letter from Standard Oil, and fought on horseback dodging bullets with the original king, in WWI. Many of my insights that were borne out of that relationship. He was writing his own memoirs and he wanted me to read the book to make sure that it was palatable to the western world.

The Door: To what degree was Islam practiced in the USA before your grandfather began building The Nation of Islam?

Brother Jesus: It was here, but it was not here in a prevalent sense. It was more clandestine. It was in more remote areas and it was not as visual. My grandfather's presentation of the religion was more of a cultural and social vehicle for economic development and social change. It was established to promote tolerance and acceptance of new religious ideas in what was viewed as being Christian America. My Grandfather challenged many of those notions.

The Door: What kind of a relationship do you currently have with minister Farrakhan?

Brother Jesus: My relationship with minister Farakan is strained at best. For the first two years after my Grandfather passed minister Farakan supported and followed my uncle and the orthodox Islamic views that were embodied in my uncle's ministry. Then he began to see that my grandfather's image, as well as what he sought to establish was being abusively trashed by my uncle. He noticed that a great many followers began to fall away. Then the economic development of the organization began to seriously deteriorate, so Farrakhan went out and tended that flock, because it was a tailor made opportunity. A power vacuum had been created when my uncle took leadership, because he decided to discard the teachings of my Grandfatherin the manner in which he did. Recently, in the last past year, minister Farrakhan has again vacillated to embrace many of my uncle's views, but I can't really say that he has trashed my grandfather in terms of a personal sense. At the same time minister Farrakhan, even previous to the new position that he is embracing, which he sometimes describes as a near death experience, has attempted to reconcile all the black factions. Take for instance the Million man march, it was an inner faith coalition representing about 1% or less of minister Farakan's hardcore followers. The march was established for Black self reliance. This was a basic theme that brought Christian ministers together who wanted to try to speak to Black men in that sense, to acquire a sense of responsibility for their families and such. But within a month from the time of the march, within weeks really, you could see minister Farrakhan on CNN embracing Kadaffi, embracing Saddam Hussain and speaking in Iran's Terran square. And this erroded the relationship he established with the Black Christian ministry, or I'll say the Black ministry period, in this country. This is the reason why he has tried several times since then to duplicate the million man march and found no opportunity to do so. It's been a slippery rock, because it's like you can fool me once, but when you go over and promenade in front of these enemies of America after having been put at the head of this march it reveals your true intentions. He is really trying to represent our people as a voter block, because it's been long understood and known by us, that these people are primarily looking for a voice in this country, because of it being the democracy that it is. Our democracy allowed him the liberty to make some of the outlandish anti-American statements that he made. Kadaffi is known to immediately jail those who oppose him. He's also known to hang those with religious differences, in the town square, in front of their families. So certainly Farrakhan must live in a very great country that's going to allow him the liberty to be able to say anything he wants, and then not have to pay any kind of price for his statements. My grandfather said I never put another country above my own. He said America is a young country and they can change. So he speaks to the change, and he speaks to us trying to engender change through the word. And so far as Farakan's national or international pursuits are concerned, they are a bastardization of my grandfather's teachings. This is a form of liberty that is being used abusively. So as it applies to his citizenship, as well as against our people, who are being offered up as being some kind of offering to these people, I have very serious problems with that. There's a whole host of other problems with minister Farrakhan's entire organizational structure in his administration. He's really almost like a gangster in the Black neighborhood. He wants to taut himself to be a great leader and helper to the black community, but then he abuses those who offer their talents. There's an article detailing how a brother put up the iron rod fences around the Mosque there on Stony Island avenue on 74th street, which is Farrakhan's principle Mosque. Then when he went there to collect the $17,000.00 for his work he couldn't collect. It was money that he needed to stay in business and avoid bankruptsy. I know other Muslims who had the same problem with him. Another brother said that when he went to collect his money he was told to leave, he said it was spooky. We've known this brother and his abusiveness with people for more than twenty years. He has two Rolls Royces in his garage. In the Holy Koran, according to Islam they say that when a man does work for you, you pay him before the sweat dries on his brow. That's our religion. What he is about is not our religion. And yes I do have a problem with him. And I have had personal problems with him, in terms of my seeking to do business with him as well, but I don't want to get into that.

The Door: Do non-Muslims have anything to fear from their Muslim brethren as it relates to the war on terrorism?

Brother Jesus: My grandfather left a footprint as it applies to his 40 year tenure, that really has given us a great deal of immunity from that. Those of us who seek to cross over the line in various ways as I described with Farrakhan. Whatever he is about and I am not going to speculate or try to intimate what things could be going on with that. But for the most part the believers who follow the path and approach what my grandfather established by the word haven't had a problem. This was made possible by Muhammad Ali and so many others. For example, I was at the Democratic fund raising dinner when president Carter was speaking, and we presented a painting that I made of president Carter. The way that the Senators and Congress people, all dressed in their formal gowns, were just clamoring for an opportunity to have Ali sign their programs was truly a sight to see. This was special to me because my father was Ali's mentor, to a great extent, so we were proud, we were very proud and we are very proud of him and the legacy that he's left. He was put on Air Force One, by president Carter, to go to Angola, to broker a peace. To mediate our differences in that situation, because of the way he's received. My father accompanied him. I'm only saying that all of this stuff that minister Farrakhan comes up with, and other people who have all these strange ideas, are not related to my Grandfather's teachings. What I'm saying is, we don't have a problem with the American people and the American government, they know us. I remember myself as one my grandfathers internal security people a few months before he passed. The FBI came by and I remember being one of the security people who had to pat one of their agents down. So we had akind of very cordial relationship with them. They knew us and we knew them. A lot of times they would ask us questions, not because we were involved in those things, but because we had avenues for contact with something like that. I'm not saying that we obliged them and I'm not saying we didn't. I'm only saying that we always, we were taught by my grandfather that the freedoms offered in this country are freedoms that many Muslim governments can not compare with. As a people we paid with the suffering of 15 generations. That's what we've paid to be able to carry a passport. This is not something that you toss on the counter with a frivolous sense of regard. So we're about trying to do everything we can to live up to and try to help this country to live up to The Creed. The Great Creed in which it was established. I just put it that way. So the answer to your original question is no. Unless for some reason the brothers may just do it as a matter of fraternization, by intermingling with some of the immigrants and members of the immigrant community. I intermingle with them regularly, but I have not been targeted, nor have I been pulled to the side in any kind of way. I can't really speak for all of the followers of my grandfathers teachings, but from the best that I know and what I have been told by those who are in the position to know, the various leaders of the community, we have not been adversely impacted by that.

The Door: What about John Muhammad, the Maryland sniper?

Brother Jesus: This guy John Muhammad will probably be found criminally insane. There's nothing that we can offer as far as an embrace for this kind of conduct, it will not be tolerated. In a Muslim country the trial would be over in less than two or three days. Because we don't believe in long trials under Muslim law. For something as blatant as this? No! It's ridiculous.

The Door: How do you respond to people like Osama Bin Laden and radical Islamic fundamentalist factions that quote the Koran to support suicide bombings and the like?

Brother Jesus: It's ridiculous. Osama Bin Laden was recruited as a money man. His issues have to deal with the fact that the Saudi Royal family leaves on deposit the money from the Oil allotments. This is the principle thorn of contention to the group that he represents. His family was employed by the Royal family to build marble walls and everything else around the Kabah, in Mecca, to tune of, I think about 4 billion dollars. So they are wealthy and are of the sheik clergy. They're from the same group that supports those madrassas and claim that they have the support of the Holy Koran. In the Holy Koran or in the Shariah which is the law of Islam, when you talk about a brick, they want to know everything about that brick. They want to know how many grains of sand are in that brick, and how much water did you use and how much lime did you use? That is how precise it becomes. There's no such thing as it's supported by the Islamic law. You have to be infinitely more specific than that, because that's to broad of a generalization.
They say that in the 9th Chapter and the 52nd verse of the Holy Koran that there is a statement that says that it may be by your hand that Allah excercises his judgement. This chapter is directed towards the hypocrites, it doesn't start with the "Bismillah El Rahman El Rahim", which is Arabic for "In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful". In fact it is the only chapter in the Koran that does not start with the "Bismillah El Rahmam El Rahim". This phrase is refered to as the Bismi blessing, which means that it's in the mercy. Chapter 9 was not given as a mercy. There are those who would try to take liberty with the interpretation of this particular verse of the Koran. They seek support from this verse to exact justice, but you need more supportive evidence than this, and there is none, this is a complete stretch.

The Door: So this is the passage that they use to Justify Suicide bombing?

Brother Jesus: This is one and the other one is a Hadith that they couple with it to attempt to justify their actions. It says absolute slaughter is better than torture. So what they're saying is that what they're experiencing under the Israelis is a form of torture, or inhumane treatment, to the extent where they would prefer death, or outright slaughter over that treatment. However the context is not there. It does not in any way give liberty for a person to take his own life and certainly it does not give him liberty to take the life of another innocent person. There is no foundation for this. It's not supported by the Holy Koran or in the Hadiths either.

The Door: What is a Hadith?

Brother Jesus: Over a 23 year period of time in the prophets life there were scribes who took down his interpretations of the law, and how it should be applied. All this was put in a collection of many books, which are called the Hadiths. What I'm emphasizing and bringing to the forefront here that there is no foundation in the Koran or the Hadiths that support the suicide bombers.

The Door: To the best of your knowledge, how does the Muslim community in America view the 9-11 tragedy?

Brother Jesus: We're abhorred by this. The Arab people have been known throughout their history as being a warlike people, settling their differences in that way. Now they have crossed the Atlantic with this stuff. It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare for everybody. Not only that it's ludicrous from the standpoint that America's nuclear arsenal has not been diminished by one bomb, America's 6th fleet has not been diminished by one U-boat. What has really been accomplished here? This is insane. What do they think they're accomplishing anyway? They're just killing people. They obviously have very little appreciation for the lives of other people, plus they're killing themselves too. I mean we can't take any more regard for their life than they do. They claim that by killing thousands of people they are making a statement. What kind of a statement are they making? The only statement I can see is an oppressive one. A two edged sword oppressive statement. That means as it applies to what's coming back on them as far as Arab immigrants in this country are concerned. They're bringing hurt and harm to people who are totally innocent. The people who perished in the world trade center were some of the finest economists in the country. How has that furthered their cause? It's a fair question. They want to be viewed as being some kind of military generals. Whatever kind of generals they are, crawling in the mud generals. How does this advance their cause one iota? They've only hurt themselves and hurt others. How are they going to fare before God, by murdering innocent people?

The Door: How will they fare? What do you think their judgement before God will be?

Brother Jesus: According to everything that I know in the scriptures suicide is not permitted. Unless they can show me just one place in the Hadiths, Shara or The Koran where it is, without inventing it through some sort of marriage of this to that, it is not permitted. Trying to say, well this could be interpreted as, no, no, that doesn't work. Show me one place, just one place, not by invention through marriage, but show me one place in the Koran where it supports this behavior. This would be a statement of challenge to put out to every one of the clergy, because as long as they have people who will do their bidding and have confidence in their teachings this problem will continue. Imam is a word that means one who goes in front. So if you are going to embrace him as your Imam and allow him to write the Islamic Fatwa, which is the ruling for you to live by, he's going to be your intercessor. He's going to be like a broker or attorney on the day of
judgement, to keep God's wrath off of you, so I want him to show me one place, not two places, but just one place in any of the scriptures that supports this insanity. It's not there, and it's really a perversion of the religion to the extent that people like that need to be held accountable. It's a horrible thing for them to court the innocent people who trust in what they say as being God's word. See the Koran is the Word of God to us. It's not Muhammad's word. It is the Word of God. I'm saying I want them to show anybody, whether they're Muslim, Christian or Jew where God says it's okay for you to do this. They want to propagate their beliefs and prove that what they're saying is right. So show us one place in the book where it says that it's okay to commit suicide, and it's not there.