Findo
April 28th 2004, 08:45 PM
[Quote=romepunk] Quote:
yes, we as humans rate sin.. but that doesn't mean God does. God's standards are absolute.. our logic and reasoning tells us that lying is different from murder. But in God's eyes, they both fall short of His glory and are deserving of death. 'for the penalty of sin is death' Rom 6:23a.. note that word is sin not sins, or some sins.. sin is sin.
I never said sin isn't sin. You've presented no verse that says all sin is equal in the eyes of God, only that we are all sinnners, and that sin leads to death. You'll get no argument from me there. I've presented verses which suggest that there are levels of sin, and you didn't respond to them.
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.. Adam was created without sin, we were born into sin, thus we are already sinners because of thesin nature passed on from adam. He had the oppurtunity to chose, we don't. So thus we cannot compare ourselves to him.
True, we inherit a sin nature from Adam. I didn't dispute that. But you seem to be suggesting that the only reason we sin is our sin nature. Yet Adam and Eve were created without a sin nature. There choice to sin was free act. Our fallen nature predisposes us to sin, but our sins are free actions. We are sinners because we sin.
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faith leads to good works. we are saved to do good works, not by them.
I think are dispute might be rooted in a semantic difference over the word faith.
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Paul knew he was saved. And on many occasions John exhorts us to know that we are saved. The whole gospel of john is written for this reason!
I think you've missed the context of my question. You said we can't lose our salvation, and anyone who rejects God was never saved in the first place. I don't believe that. I think we can have a qualified (not absolute) certainty of our salvation. We can lose our salvation if we reject God. It doesn't mean we weren't saved yesterday if we reject God tomorrow. People change.
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I do believe you have added the word works there. I think the bible talks about adding to it....
I wasn't quoting a specific verse. By Grace through faith and works is the dogma you arrive at when you take all the Bible says about salvation in context.
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I agree, our good works are only by the grace of God, but they in no way affect our salvation. Bpatism and eucharist are both outward symbols of inward change... they too cannot affect our salvation.
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven."
Revelation 20:12-13 "I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
John 3:5 ?I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.?
Acts 22:16 ?Be baptized and wash your sins away.?[/qoute]
sorry about not repsonding to those veres.. the first one seems to be a misquote, as it does'nt have any relevance.. the second is refering to the 'unforgivable sin' which is often thought to be the rejection of Christ.
Acts 22:16 actually reads: 'Now why do you delay? Get and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
compare this with Joel 22:32a: 'Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered.' (refering to the day of the Lord.) Peter reiterates this in Acts 2:21 by quoting the same passage: 'And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
John 20:31 - by believing we may be saved.
1 John 5:13 - ' These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.'
read all of john 1 and you will see verse after verse that states salvation comes through believing in Jesus Christ, and that we can be sure of our salvation. After all, God is the author and perfector of our faith (Heb 12:2), and He who began a good thing in us will continue it until the day of completion. (Phil 1:6)
yes, we as humans rate sin.. but that doesn't mean God does. God's standards are absolute.. our logic and reasoning tells us that lying is different from murder. But in God's eyes, they both fall short of His glory and are deserving of death. 'for the penalty of sin is death' Rom 6:23a.. note that word is sin not sins, or some sins.. sin is sin.
I never said sin isn't sin. You've presented no verse that says all sin is equal in the eyes of God, only that we are all sinnners, and that sin leads to death. You'll get no argument from me there. I've presented verses which suggest that there are levels of sin, and you didn't respond to them.
Quote:
.. Adam was created without sin, we were born into sin, thus we are already sinners because of thesin nature passed on from adam. He had the oppurtunity to chose, we don't. So thus we cannot compare ourselves to him.
True, we inherit a sin nature from Adam. I didn't dispute that. But you seem to be suggesting that the only reason we sin is our sin nature. Yet Adam and Eve were created without a sin nature. There choice to sin was free act. Our fallen nature predisposes us to sin, but our sins are free actions. We are sinners because we sin.
Quote:
faith leads to good works. we are saved to do good works, not by them.
I think are dispute might be rooted in a semantic difference over the word faith.
Quote:
Paul knew he was saved. And on many occasions John exhorts us to know that we are saved. The whole gospel of john is written for this reason!
I think you've missed the context of my question. You said we can't lose our salvation, and anyone who rejects God was never saved in the first place. I don't believe that. I think we can have a qualified (not absolute) certainty of our salvation. We can lose our salvation if we reject God. It doesn't mean we weren't saved yesterday if we reject God tomorrow. People change.
Quote:
I do believe you have added the word works there. I think the bible talks about adding to it....
I wasn't quoting a specific verse. By Grace through faith and works is the dogma you arrive at when you take all the Bible says about salvation in context.
Quote:
I agree, our good works are only by the grace of God, but they in no way affect our salvation. Bpatism and eucharist are both outward symbols of inward change... they too cannot affect our salvation.
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven."
Revelation 20:12-13 "I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
John 3:5 ?I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.?
Acts 22:16 ?Be baptized and wash your sins away.?[/qoute]
sorry about not repsonding to those veres.. the first one seems to be a misquote, as it does'nt have any relevance.. the second is refering to the 'unforgivable sin' which is often thought to be the rejection of Christ.
Acts 22:16 actually reads: 'Now why do you delay? Get and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
compare this with Joel 22:32a: 'Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered.' (refering to the day of the Lord.) Peter reiterates this in Acts 2:21 by quoting the same passage: 'And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
John 20:31 - by believing we may be saved.
1 John 5:13 - ' These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.'
read all of john 1 and you will see verse after verse that states salvation comes through believing in Jesus Christ, and that we can be sure of our salvation. After all, God is the author and perfector of our faith (Heb 12:2), and He who began a good thing in us will continue it until the day of completion. (Phil 1:6)