Tribe question -- jewish descent

[rldb]

:hi: Hi to tweb members of Jewish descent,

As a non-jew, I'd like some insight into current practices of keeping family records. According to Biblical history, great lengths were taken to keep records of the family line and typically, Jewish families married within their tribe. But, I wonder now how significant this is in the Jewish culture of today. Specifically:

1. Does the typical Jew have a tribal identity? [i.e. Judah, Benjamin, etc.]

2. How many generations back does the typical Jew have family records?

3. Are the records held in an official spot or is it up to the individual?

:ahem: Thanks for your help! If you're not from Jewish descent reading, please do not attempt to answer since I'd really like information from a jewish perspective. Thanks again!

[Cherith]

If you're not from Jewish descent reading, please do not attempt to answer since I'd really like information from a jewish perspective.

:bawl: Party Pooper! :bawl:


300
:attn:

Of course, his very request begs the question...
but I'm not saying anything...

:nc:

...I'll just wait and let the Jews hang themselves!
:ponder:

You were asked not to post as a non-Jew and your post was too inflamatory

[rldb]

:bawl: Party Pooper! :bawl:
Of course, his very request begs the question...
but I'm not saying anything...

:nc:

...I'll just wait and let the Jews hang themselves!


Well this response is SURE to get the information I need... I mean, it's just so full of love and mutual respect. :argh:

To those of jewish descent: PLEASE IGNORE THE ABOVE POST :poke: and please pass on the jewish perspective. I appreciate it!

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi rldb!

As TWeb's resident orthodox Jew, I'll try my best to answer your questions.

1. Does the typical Jew have a tribal identity?

Except for priests & Levites (after a fashion), no.

Priests are the descendants of Aharon (i.e. Aaron) & his sons Pinchas (i.e. Phineas) and Itamar (i.e. Ithamar) in the direct male line. The Hebrew word for an Aaronic priest is cohain(singular)/cohanim(plural). As late as some time after the destruction of the Second Temple in CE 70 :bawl: , accurate & detailed (as much as possible) geneological lists were kept but these (as out of date as they would be now) have long since been lost. Jews surnamed Cohen, Cahn, Kahn, Cahane, Kahane, Cohn, etc. (and Katz) are generally assumed to be of priestly descent unless the specific family holds otherwise or has a tradition to the contrary. There are Jews who do not have one of the aforementioned priestly surnames but whose families do have the tradition of being of priestly descent (I have a friend here in Israel whose last name is Benstein & his family has such a tradition). See http://www.jewfaq.org/rabbi.htm#Kohein.

Levites are the descendants of Jacob's son Levi in the direct male line (Priests are a special subset of Levites). Many Jews with last names like Levy, Levi, Levitt, Levitz, Levison, etc. are generally assumed to be of Levitical descent unless the specific family holds otherwise or has a tradition to the contrary. There are Jews who do not have one of the aforementioned Levitical surnames but whose families do have the tradition of being of Levitical descent. My last name is Luterman & my family has the tradition that we are Levites. See http://www.jewfaq.org/rabbi.htm#Levi.

As the Torah tells us, priests and Levites had many specific/exclusive roles, precepts & duties. Nowadays, in the (temporary!) absence of a Temple, the vast majority of these roles, precepts and duties are suspended/in abeyance. But when the Messiah comes (soon! :pray: ), all of these will be reinstated in full.

How far back individual Jews & Jewish families may keep their own private geneological records is up to them. Such records are not kept in any one place, official or otherwise.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[rldb]

Hi rldb!

(I have a friend here in Israel whose last name is Benstein & his family has such a tradition).
:hi:
Thanks! So, I assume you live in Israel. Born there or moved there?

I'll check out the website you suggested. Let me probe you [& others] with a few other questions. [Let me say that, yes, the answers to some of these have implications, but I'm not asking them to argue with you, I'm asking to gain a jewish perspective instead of being told what jewish people believe]

I've been studing Israel and the Minor Prophets this year in a Bible study group. Now, in the minor prophets, there is mention of Ephriam specifically, but other northern tribes mentioned in the restoration of Israel. These things were written after the northern kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians. I was always taught that those tribes were essentially (genetically)lost - that they lost their tribal identity at that time - with the only ones left being Judah, Benjamin and a small remnant of the people who fled Israel to live in Judah. Yet, scripture mentions both Israel and Judah after this time.
What is taught in jewish communities in regards to the existence of the 10 northern tribes at that time and now?

Without a genetic line or geneology, what standard do you use to measure "Israel"'s restoration? If it's not a blood line, what is it?

Then there is the issue of the Messiah, are there people whose tradition says they are from the line of David?

Thanks!:ahem:

[Timothy Leary]

I'll hit this later tonight - I g2g to work!

[Timothy Leary]

:hi: Hi to tweb members of Jewish descent,

As a non-jew, I'd like some insight into current practices of keeping family records. According to Biblical history, great lengths were taken to keep records of the family line and typically, Jewish families married within their tribe. But, I wonder now how significant this is in the Jewish culture of today. Specifically:

1. Does the typical Jew have a tribal identity? [i.e. Judah, Benjamin, etc.]


Some do, some do not. The Priests and Levites have been the most meticulous in keeping their geneology. The Jews I know are either Preists, from the Tribe of Zebulun, from the Tribe of Judah, and one person from the tribe of Mannaseh. Others don't know their tribe.


2. How many generations back does the typical Jew have family records?


It varies from community to community. The Yemenites can trace their geneologies back to 300 B.C. Some families in Jerusalem can trace their geneology back to the Second Temple Era (the times of Jesus). Others may only be able to trace their geneology for 500 years or so.



3. Are the records held in an official spot or is it up to the individual?


Mainly on the individual. However there are many organizations that keep such geneologies, I can't remember the name of the one that helped me trace my geneology. The LDS/Mormon chuch has an extensive geneology database though.

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Rldb posted:

So, I assume you live in Israel. Born there or moved there?

I moved here from the US (I'm from Pittsburgh & went to GWU in DC) 17.5 years ago. My wife, our two boychiks & I live in the Jerusalem suburb of Maaleh Adumim (http://www.jr.co.il/ma/), in the religious neighborhood of Mitzpeh Nevo (http://www.jr.co.il/ma/pic/ma012.htm).

I'll check out the website you suggested. Let me probe you [& others] with a few other questions. [Let me say that, yes, the answers to some of these have implications, but I'm not asking them to argue with you, I'm asking to gain a jewish perspective instead of being told what jewish people believe]

http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm and http://www.ou.org/about/judaism2.htm are good sites to learn about Judaism.

What is taught in jewish communities in regards to the existence of the 10 northern tribes at that time and now?


Except for priests & Levites as I mentioned in my previous post, traditional, normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism holds that all tribal affiliations have been lost track of and that (priests and Levites excepted) no Jew's tribal affiliation is, or can be, known. Post-destruction-of-Samaria references to Ephraim (or Israel) and Judah (especially that of Ezekiel 37:15-28) are merely poetic/metaphorical and are not authoritative vis-a-vis geneology.

Without a genetic line or geneology, what standard do you use to measure "Israel"'s restoration? If it's not a blood line, what is it?

Well, just last Saturday we (Jews all over the world) read Amos 9:7-15 in synagogue as the section from the Prophets that accompanies the regular weekly Torah reading (see http://www.jewfaq.org/readings.htm). Amos 14-15 says:

And I will turn the captivity of My people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked up out of their land which I have given them, says the Lord your God.

Come and see how we have built the waste cities and inhabited them, how we have planted vineyards and drunk the wine thereof, etc. here in the last 56+ years!

Then there is the issue of the Messiah, are there people whose tradition says they are from the line of David?

We will not know the Messiah (see http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm) not by who he says he is but by what he does. Our very great Sage, Maimonedes (12th century CE, see http://tinyurl.com/ytsk7), in his "Laws of Kings" summarized the definitive statement on the Jewish view of the Messiah:

In the future, the King Messiah will stand up and restore the Davidic monarchy...build the Temple, gather the dispersed of Israel, and restore all the laws as they were in former times: offerings, sabbatical and jubilee years as they are commanded in the Torah. Anyone who does not believe in him or who does not await his coming is a heretic, not only against the other prophets, but against the Torah and Moses Our Teacher...Do not entertain the notion that King Messiah will have to do signs and wonders, make new things in the world or raise the dead...This is not so...If a king arises from the House of David, learned in the Torah and engaged in [its] precepts like David his father, both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah, enjoins all Israel to follow it and hold fast to it, and fights God's wars, he may be presumed to be the Messiah. If he succeeds in building the Temple on its place and gathering the dispersed of Israel, he is certainly the Messiah, and he will repair the entire world so that it worships God together...If he does not succeed, or is killed, then know that he is not the one promised in the Torah...Do not entertain the notion that in the days of the Messiah, anything will be canceled from its way in the world or there will be new works of creation, but the world will continue as it always has...Our Sages said that the only difference between the current world and the days of the Messiah will be service to the kingship of Heaven...There are those among our Sages who say that Elijah will herald the coming of the Messiah...One must not [try to] calculate when this will take place; our Sages say: 'Blast the bones of those who so calculate;' they should wait and believe.

If the members of your Bible study group have any questions about a Jewish perspective on what you're studying, feel free to email or pm me & I'll do my best.

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[rldb]

Thanks for your help. Things are a bit crazy around here right now, but I'll address these things again later on. Have a great day!

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi rldb!

Take your time!

Be well & be in touch!

ssv :hi:

[rldb]

:hi:
Hi Again!

Studying Zechariah on this end of the computer. So, a few questions to my jewish friends.

My understanding is that the jewish perspective of Zechariah is that chapter 14 is the only scripture refering to the Messiah. In light of that what is your take on the following scriptures:
1) Is Zech 12:1-9, more description of the same period of time described in chapter 14?
2) Who is the "one they have pierced" in vs. 10-11?
3) And what is this fountain opened to the house of David? Is "house of David" the royal line or symbolic of all of Israel?

I also understand that a daily prayer is said for the restoration of the line of David. So, I assume that we agree that the deliverer (Messiah) must be a descendant of David... which brings me back to my original question. So, do we just assume that whoever the deliverer that you believe comes in the future will be of the line of David; but there will be no geneological evidence? Just trust that he's the one because of what he accomplishes for the nation of Israel?

Thanks for your thoughts.:ahem:

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi rldb!

Welcome back!

Lessee...

My understanding is that the jewish perspective of Zechariah is that chapter 14 is the only scripture refering to the Messiah.

No offense but you are incorrect. See http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#Bible.

1) Is Zech 12:1-9, more description of the same period of time described in chapter 14?

At first glance, I think so. I will try to remember to look this up in the synagogue library when I go to morning prayers tomorrow (at 05:50).

2) Who is the "one they have pierced" in vs. 10-11?

See http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq084.html.

3) And what is this fountain opened to the house of David? Is "house of David" the royal line or symbolic of all of Israel?

I will try to remember to look this up in the synagogue library when I go to morning prayers tomorrow (at 05:50).

I also understand that a daily prayer is said for the restoration of the line of David.

Correct; we say it 3 times a day.

Just trust that he's the one because of what he accomplishes for the nation of Israel?

If X does all of the things that Maimonedes says the Messiah will do, then X is the Messiah, a descendant of David & Solomon (see also http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq030.html and http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq013.html). No other could do these things (which is one of the reasons why Roman Emporer Julian's attempt to rebuild the temple was doomed to fail; Julian was obviously not the Messiah, see http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=716&letter=J&search=Julian)!

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[rldb]

Hi rldb!
No offense but you are incorrect. See http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#Bible.



Be well!

ssv :hi:
None taken, I meant to say "the only scripture/chapter in the book of Zechariah"... not the only scripture. Thanks for the rest.

[rldb]

Whoa... confused:huh:

"The rabbis of the Talmud saw this suffering personified in the leader of the people, the warrior Messiah, the son of Joseph, who will be slain at this time (B.T. Sukkah 52a). The entire nation's dead will be mourned, but the mourning over the death of the warrior Messiah symbolizes the collective grief as the people mourn for the fallen of Israel."

So, in one part of this website, it says that if a man claiming to be messiah dies, it shows that he is not the messiah. Then we have this passage where the Messiah's death is being mourned.

What's your chronology from the time this Messiah is recognized as such until this time of death? What's the condition of Israel as a nation/spiritually upon his death? What is the purpose of your Messiah?

Thanks!

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi rldb!

So, in one part of this website, it says that if a man claiming to be messiah dies, it shows that he is not the messiah. Then we have this passage where the Messiah's death is being mourned.

Regarding the "Messiah, the son of Joseph", see http://tinyurl.com/37mve and http://tinyurl.com/2plfe.

Regarding chronology, see the very last sentence in the lengthy quote from Maimonedes that I posted a few posts back!

I had a look at a Book of Zechariah at synagogue this morning...

1) Is Zech 12:1-9, more description of the same period of time described in chapter 14?

Different stages in the same period, i.e. yes (basically).

And what is this fountain opened to the house of David? Is "house of David" the royal line or symbolic of all of Israel?

Zechariah 13:1 refers to the opening of another spring-and-pool for Jews, including the members of the newly-restored House of David, to perform our various ritual ablutions in.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[rldb]

Zechariah 13:1 refers to the opening of another spring-and-pool for Jews, including the members of the newly-restored House of David, to perform our various ritual ablutions in.

Howzat?
Be well!
ssv :hi:Howzat? It's helpful, thanks. So, the spring water is literal water flowing east & west?

Here's a quote from the website... Judaism 101:


"The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/people.htm)by bringing us back to Israel (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/israel.htm) and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/temple.htm) and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15). Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age



.... Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people. (Isaiah 2:4) Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

.... In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/g-d.htm) as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/sacrifice.htm) will continue to be brought in the Temple (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/temple.htm), but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/zebach.htm), because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings."



I can understand a Messiah that is national leader, bringing others in from exile, bringing peace and prosperity. Jewish history shows there have been many such leaders raised up by God. But, history also shows that after the most amazing times of spiritual revival, people fell back into sin and fell away from God (Hey, it happens with Christian history too -- Judism is not unique in that way) So, what is different about this human Messiah & humanity that would mean there would be no sin on this earth? Does this human Messiah overthrow Satan ...does God happen to overthrow Satan at the same time that the Messiah overthrows human enemies to Israel?



I also reread the chronology of the Messiah, but I wasn't sure where "Messiah born of Joseph" fits into the picture. Will they live/rule at the same time or right after each other?

You've been a big help in gaining a jewish perspective. :chat: I appreciate it. No hurry on the above questions, they just came up as I was reading. Have a great day!

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi rldb!

Howzat? It's helpful, thanks. So, the spring water is literal water flowing east & west?

You're welcome & yes.

I can understand a Messiah that is national leader, bringing others in from exile, bringing peace and prosperity. Jewish history shows there have been many such leaders raised up by God. But, history also shows that after the most amazing times of spiritual revival, people fell back into sin and fell away from God (Hey, it happens with Christian history too -- Judism is not unique in that way)

Well, hopefully, there will be no mass backsliding after the Messiah comes. As Maimonedes says, the Messiah, "will repair the entire world so that it worships God together...Our Sages said that the only difference between the current world and the days of the Messiah will be service to the kingship of Heaven..."

So, what is different about this human Messiah & humanity that would mean there would be no sin on this earth? Does this human Messiah overthrow Satan ...does God happen to overthrow Satan at the same time that the Messiah overthrows human enemies to Israel?

I think that your questions stem from two more differences between our respective faiths. In our view, sins are acts (of commission or omission). I believe that Christianity sees Sin as a state of being. We do not believe in Original Sin; that is a particularly Christian concept. In our view, individuals will always have the potential to commit sins (just as we always have the potential to do acts of virtue). Hopefully, the advent of the Messiah & the restoration of the Temple, of active prophecy, etc. will have a profoundly positive effect on humanity. But the potential to sin will still exist in every individual.

In our view, Satan is not a "fallen angel" who opposes God, presides over Hell, etc. Rather, as per Job and Chronicles, we see him as an angel, as God's troubleshooter (as it were) who, at God's behest, tests and tempts mankind. Like other angels, he is not an independent actor. See http://tinyurl.com/3bcul.

I also reread the chronology of the Messiah, but I wasn't sure where "Messiah born of Joseph" fits into the picture. Will they live/rule at the same time or right after each other?

I believe that our Sages teach that the Messiah ben Joseph will come before the Messiah, the Messiah ben David.

You've been a big help in gaining a jewish perspective. I appreciate it. No hurry on the above questions, they just came up as I was reading. Have a great day!

Thank you! Ask me any & all questions that you would like & I will try my best. :cheers:

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[Goose]

I've been studing Israel and the Minor Prophets this year in a Bible study group. Now, in the minor prophets, there is mention of Ephriam specifically, but other northern tribes mentioned in the restoration of Israel. These things were written after the northern kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians. I was always taught that those tribes were essentially (genetically)lost - that they lost their tribal identity at that time - with the only ones left being Judah, Benjamin and a small remnant of the people who fled Israel to live in Judah. Yet, scripture mentions both Israel and Judah after this time.Actually you're correct in both aspects, in that the tribes are lost and that scripture mentioned the return of the ten tribes. I'm a orthodox geir, and I've been dialoguing with my Paqid(de-judaized to "bishop") about the lost tribes. I'll try to explain in a chronoligical order, as knowing when the prophets prophesied and when the two kingdom dispersions occurred. If you want to know more, I'll refer you to some Bible Archaelogy Review articles.

722BCE - Assyria took the Northern Kingdom, the ten tribes into captivity. There, the tribes...:

Started assimilating into the goyim(nations) and lost forever, or...
started assimiliating into the Southern Kingdom(Yudah)
586BCE - The Southern Kingdom falls to Babylon and are exhiled into captivity

583BCE - Ezekiel the Prophet gives his "stick" prophesy (Ezekiel 37:15-28), stating that assimilation of the Northern Tribes will end, creating one whole stick, ergo a new nation and "...will never again be divided...". The assimilation process was already underway in Babylon, and finished sometime between 722BCE and 135CE. There are neither yukhasin(the ancient official public pedigree genealogy registers) nor identifiable tribes of Israel today. Not until Meshiach comes will the tribes be alotted their lands and the people seperated.

135CE - The cut off date for being able to officially check tribal lineage. From my research, this is due to the war in Israel at the time, where Romans destroyed the offical yukhasin.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but unless the prophecy of Ezekiel is wrong, the Nation will never again be divided, as the tribes have either been assimiliated into the goyim(nations) or assimilated into Yudah; ergo there is no definable "tribe of Joseph" today. The only way to become a part of Israel today, is by assimilating into the tribe of Yudah, which is the only identifiable tribe. Any Christian bible teacher telling you otherwise is an imposter and goes against the prophets of HaShem. It's now the job of Meshiach to identify the other tribes. Not Christian zionists or what have you. I understand some Christians really do love the Jewish people, but claiming to be of the spiritual tribe of Judah or Joseph, etc. goes against the prophets of HaShem and suplants the job of Meshiach, and therefore has a negative effect.

If someone truly believes they have some deep connection with the tribes of Israel and are "filled with the Holy Spirit", then they'd keep the instructions of HaShem; not go against them and those that keep them.

For further reading consult:

Biblical Archeology Review, 75.09, p. 29ff

Biblical Archeology Review, 91.01, p. 55

What is taught in jewish communities in regards to the existence of the 10 northern tribes at that time and now?Typically in orthodox communities, the tribes are lost. There are no official records. I know of an exception where an aquintance of mine in England is labelled as an Ephraimite, but this is highly unusual, and goes against the prophecy of Ezekiel, in that the Meshiach will name the tribes.

Without a genetic line or geneology, what standard do you use to measure "Israel"'s restoration? If it's not a blood line, what is it?Meshiach will do it however he will do it. Who knows. :ahem: May it be soon.

Then there is the issue of the Messiah, are there people whose tradition says they are from the line of David?

Thanks!:ahem:My research shows that the line of David was hunted down circa 1st century CE during Roman occupation of Israel. "According to Hegesippus, Vespian, Domitian and Trajan hunted down all Jews of Davidic descent and exucuted them in order to extirpate the royal line on which the Jews had set their hopes" (Emil Schurer, The history of the Jewish people in the age of J-e-s-u-s Christ, I:528) "It was not without reason..." (Sal Baron, A Social and Religious History of the Jews, II:121). "The authorities search out the Jewish families descended from the house of David in order to destroy them and this eradicate the last remnant of the nation's hope of restoratoin of the Davidic kingdom" ("Israel," Ency. Jud., 9:238).[1] My Paqid states with citiations that the only Davidic line we have today is that of Ribi Yehoshua ben Yosef of the 1st Century.

[1]Paqid Yirmeyahu ben-David; "Who are the Netzarim?"; p. 21, 1998, Schueller House.

[Timothy Leary]

My Paqid states with citiations that the only Davidic line we have today is that of Ribi Yehoshua ben Yosef of the 1st Century.

I don't believe this is correct. If memory serves, Rabbi Tovia Singer (from the Anti-Missionary group Outreach Judaism) can trace his geneology to King David.

[Goose]

I don't believe this is correct. If memory serves, Rabbi Tovia Singer (from the Anti-Missionary group Outreach Judaism) can trace his geneology to King David.Tovia is a Rabbi? Someone told me he was orthodox, too, but I didn't see him with a beard.

Also, I'm going to have to ask Paqid Yirmeyahu just what records he's referring to.

[Menachem]

Tovia is a Rabbi? Someone told me he was orthodox, too, but I didn't see him with a beard.

Also, I'm going to have to ask Paqid Yirmeyahu just what records he's referring to.


My Rabbi is Orthodox and he does not have a beard. In Fact, halachah recognizes methods permitted for shaving of the beard. While Scissors and Razor Blades are not permitted by Halachah, Electric Shavers and any such products are permitted.

As an old saying goes: "I've seen Rabbi's without beards and I've seen Beards without Rabbi's, when all is said and done I prefer the latter."

[Goose]

My Rabbi is Orthodox and he does not have a beard. In Fact, halachah recognizes methods permitted for shaving of the beard. While Scissors and Razor Blades are not permitted by Halachah, Electric Shavers and any such products are permitted.

As an old saying goes: "I've seen Rabbi's without beards and I've seen Beards without Rabbi's, when all is said and done I prefer the latter."Oh yeah. I forgot about that. I think I asked the same thing and got the same response. :lol: I'm just slow on the uptake I guess.

[Cherith]

There are neither yukhasin(the ancient official public pedigree genealogy registers) nor identifiable tribes of Israel today. [/color]Not until Meshiach comes will the tribes be alotted their lands and the people seperated.

Pardon me, Goose, but without genealogy as a means of identifying one's lineage, how can there be "tribes" and if there are NØ tribes then how can they be allotted "their" lands?

"These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were NØT found: THEREFORE were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood." --Ezra 2:62

And that was after only 70 yrs - a little more than one generation!

135CE - The cut off date for being able to officially check tribal lineage. From my research, this is due to the war in Israel at the time, where Romans destroyed the offical yukhasin.

...

My research shows that the line of David was hunted down circa 1st century [A.D.] during Roman occupation of Israel. "According to Hegesippus, Vespian, Domitian and Trajan hunted down all Jews of Davidic descent and exucuted them in order to extirpate the royal line on which the Jews had set their hopes" (Emil Schurer, The history of the Jewish people in the age of J-e-s-u-s Christ, I:528) ... "The authorities search out the Jewish families descended from the house of David in order to destroy them and this eradicate the last remnant of the nation's hope of restoratoin of the Davidic kingdom" ("Israel," Ency. Jud., 9:238).

I couldn't resist this one. Dee Dee may find this interesting too, as the hyper-prets either didn't know about it or won't own up to it. Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History has this to say where he quotes from the Jew, Hegesippus (c.110-189):

There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas [i.e. Jude/Judah], who according to the flesh was called his brother. These were informed against, as belonging to the family of David, and Evocatus brought them before Domitian Caesar: for that emperor dreaded the advent of Christ, as Herod had done.

So he asked them whether they were of the family of David; and they confessed they were. Next he asked them what property they had, or how much money they possessed. They both replied that they had only 9000 denaria* between them, each of them owning half that sum; but even this they said they did not possess in cash, but as the estimated value of some land, consisting of thirty-nine plethra [i.e. acres] only, out of which they had to pay the dues, and that they supported themselves by their own labour. And then they began to hold out their hands, exhibiting, as proof of their manual labour, the roughness of their skin, and the callosity formed by incessant labour on their hands, as evidence of their own labour.

Being then asked concerning Christ and His kingdom, what was its nature, and when and where it was to appear, they replied, 'that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but belonging to the sphere of heaven and angels, and that it would appear at the end of the world, when coming in glory He would judge the quick and the dead, and render to every one according to his works.'

Upon which, Domitian despising them, made no reply; but treating them with contempt, as simpletons, commanded them to be dismissed, and by a decree ordered the persecution to cease. Thus delivered, they ruled the churches both as witnesses and relatives of the Lord. When peace was established, they continued living even to the times of Trajan."

Zadoc and James were the names of Jude's grandchildren - i.e. the great-nephews of the Messiah.

Several things about this historical account: 1) the house of David was still identifiable (something that is no longer true in our day); 2) Domitian ruled AFTER the Jewish Wars and The Fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 (A.D. 81-96); and 3) the Lord's great-nephews considered His Second Advent to be yet future and were rulers in the Church, where we can presume they taught likewise...

The entire text can be read online here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/hegesippus.html (also available on ccel)

or a blurb in the Jewish Encyclopedia here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=510&letter=H

If nothing else, the above proves that Jesus was considered a descendant of King David by his fellow Jews!

[Goose]

Pardon me, Goose, but without genealogy as a means of identifying one's lineage, how can there be "tribes" and if there are NØ tribes then how can they be allotted "their" lands?Wha....? What are you talking about? I agree with you that tribes, save Judah, are not identifiable today. You can become a member of Judah, not just by blood, but by choice, through orthodox halacha.

I agree with Hezkiyel haNavi(Ezekiel 34-37) that the Meshiach ben David will identify the tribes when he comes(by DNA or whatever method he'll use, who knows). Therefore, it is not up to the rest of men to find out who is from what tribe, but for the Meshiach to fulfill that job. However, the only identifiable tribe today is Judah, i.e. the Jews.

[Cherith]

Wha....? What are you talking about? I agree with you that the tribes, save Judah, are not identifiable today. You can become a member of Judah, not just by blood, but by choice, through orthodox halacha.

That's NØT true, Goose, not even the tribe of Judah is identifiable today. That is a mere assumption on your part. One that you are making since you know full well that it is a well-attested fact that the tribes of the Northern Kingdom were dispersed and lost to history. But the fact of the matter is that the Southern Kingdom - of Judah AND Benjamin - eventually shared the same fate. There is not one single solitary Jew alive on the earth today who can trace his ancestry back to Judah. One can convert to "Judah-ism" but that does not make one a member of the TRIBE.

Furthermore, the children of Israel were NØT to marry outside "the family" (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22956) - i.e. with the nations; so for a person to be a descendant of Abraham (or Judah) would require ALL of the past generations of a particular family line to have kept the covenant in order to still be IN the covenant (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23472). The fact that no one can produce evidence of their family's faithfulness to the covenant injunction - viz. by their genealogy - is just another proof that that covenant is no longer in operation (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23473).

I agree with Hezkiyel haNavi (Ezekiel 34-37) that the Meshiach ben David will identify the tribes when he comes (by DNA or whatever method he'll use, who knows). Therefore, it is not up to the rest of men to find out who is from what tribe, but for the Meshiach to fulfill that job. However, the only identifiable tribe today is Judah, i.e. the Jews.

Wrong again, Goose, not even God Himself could identify non-existent "tribes" by DNA. But it is instructive that you try and save yourself by the next to the last sentence... :wink:

In humans there are 23 pairs of chromosomes. In 22 pairs, both members are essentially identical, one deriving from the individual's mother, the other from the father. The 23rd pair is different. ...When a child is conceived it gets one chromosome from its mother and one chromosome from its father. The chromosome from the mother will always be an X, but the chromosome from the father may be either X or Y. If the child gets the X she will a girl, if the child gets the Y he will be a boy.

The presence of a Y-Chromosome causes maleness. This little chromosome [is] about 2% of a father's genetic contribution to his sons...

It is transmitted from fathers ONLY to their SONS.

Most of the Y-Chromosome is inherited as an integral unit passed without alteration from father to sons, and to their sons, and so on, unaffected by exchange or any other influence of the X-Chromosome that came from the mother. It is the only nuclear chromosome that escapes the continual reshuffling of parental genes during the process of sex cell production.

...

An individual's test results have little meaning on their own. You CANNØT take these numbers, plug them into some formula and find out who your ancestors are. The value of the test results depends on how your results compare to other test results. And even when you match someone else, it will only indicate that you and the person you match share a common ancestor. Depending on the number of markers tested and the number of matches it will indicate with a certain degree of probability how long ago this common ancestor existed. It will NØT show exactly who this ancestor is.

As discussed above, the Y-Chromosome is passed from father to son. The vast majority of the time the father passes an exact copy of his Y-Chromosome to his son. This means that the markers of the son are identical to those of his father. However on rare occasion there is a mutation or change in one of the markers. The change is either an insertion or a deletion. An insertion is when an additional repeat is added to a marker. A deletion is when one of the repeats is deleted.

Mutations occur at random. This means it is possible for two DISTANT COUSINS to match EXACTLY on all markers while two BROTHERS might NØT match exactly.

...

Although it is impossible to pinpoint a common ancestor from the test results alone, with a PROPER PAPER TRAIL you may be able to...

The above is taken from the website of just such a family who is trying to do that. http://blairgenealogy.com/dna/dna101.html

But just think about this logically, Goose, IF all of the human race is descended from 3 brothers (Shem, Ham & Japeth) and those three brothers are descended from one man (Noah), THEN why does not our entire genetic sequence in DNA reflect this - if the son inherits an EXACT COPY of his father's Y-chromosome? So, of course COHENs or BLAIRs or MULHOLLANDs or whatever share a common genetic marker - they all profess to descend from the same patriarch by that surname (we moderns only inherit a SURNAME through our fathers). But I've read where a white American COHEN met a black African COHEN (who is a member of the Buba Lemba tribe and has an oral history of being from the tribe of Levi) and yet the African fellow had more genetic markers than the white fellow! Should Israeli immigration standards then be based upon a preponderance of DNA markers to the "standard"?!? And even then, who's to say that this "Levite" that they descended from wasn't an apostate who was carried away into captivity because of his unfaithfulness to the covenant?!?!

Click here (http://www.endlessgenealogies.com/images/GenTree31.png) to see why your "Jew," "tribe" or even DNA assumptions would be preposterous! (Where each color represents a different surname and/or read the tail end of this post (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=437529&postcount=31).)

Click here (http://www.endlessgenealogies.com/MESSIAH/images/MESSIAH4.png) to see a graphic representation of the Messiah's Family Tree.

[Goose]

That's NØT true, Goose, not even the tribe of Judah is identifiable today.ROTFL What nonsense. You're delusional. Saying that the tribe of Judah(Jews) do not exist is like saying that trees do not exist. I'm tired of your idiocy. Where's the ignore button...

[Cherith]

ROTFL What nonsense. You're delusional. Saying that the tribe of Judah(Jews) do not exist is like saying that trees do not exist. I'm tired of your idiocy. Where's the ignore button...

As a wise man once said: "There is none so blind as him who WILL not see..."

Or as your online "family" (http://www.cohen-levi.org) would say: Whatever!

[Cherith]

Hey Goose, is that YOU in your avatar? If so, glad to see that you are an adult, but also shocked that you've trimmed your beard? What happened to authentic Judaism and living by the Torah?

Lev 19:27 "Ye shall NØT round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

[Goose]

Hey Goose, is that YOU in your avatar? If so, glad to see that you are an adult, but also shocked that you've trimmed your beard? What happened to authentic Judaism and living by the Torah?


Lev 19:27 "Ye shall NØT round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."For Cherith the Ignorant

Peyos literally means corners. It refers to the hair that grows at the temple and upper sideburns between the forehead and behind the ear. The Halacha forbids us from cutting off these hairs. There is another mitzvah not to shave off one’s beard with a razor. Both of these mitzvos are mentioned in the Torah in Vayikra 19:27, "Do not cut off the hair on the sides of your head, do not shave off the edges of your beard." These mitzvos do not apply to women.


The prohibition against cutting the peyos applies to each hair individually. We are not allowed to cut even one hair from our peyos. However, it is only a problem if you cut it off all the way, just cutting it short is not a problem so long as it isn’t cut off completely. There is a custom among many Jews to let the peyos grow long. This is particularly noticeable by Chassidim and Yemenites who grow there peyos into long curls. The prohibition against shaving the beard is only with a razor. A scissors or an electric shaver is usually not a problem. Some electric shavers (such as the Lift and Cut shavers from Norelco) cut like razors and are not permitted. It is usually advisable to speak to a Rabbi before buying a shaver to find out which ones are good. There is also a custom not to shave the beard at all.

http://members.aol.com/lazera/peyos.htm

[Timothy Leary]

Also check out :

http://www.karaite-korner.org/shaving.shtml

[Cherith]

Yeah, yeah. I've read all of that before. Without commenting on any of that, may I point out that you neglected to answer my initial question - viz., is that YOU in your avatar?

Good grief. What's so hard about these questions that I ask?!?!

[RaineLovesJ]

Hey Goose, is that YOU in your avatar? If so, glad to see that you are an adult, but also shocked that you've trimmed your beard? What happened to authentic Judaism and living by the Torah?

Lev 19:27 "Ye shall NØT round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

Cherith, it's important to note that the command is given in regards to doing so in mourning. See also Lev. 21:5

[RaineLovesJ]

As a wise man once said: "There is none so blind as him who WILL not see..."


Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but My servant? Or deaf, as My messenger that I send? Who is blind as he that is wholehearted, and blind as YHWH’S servant?