Satan by nature

[studyhound]

Hey Skye,

You asked me to present my view on Satan, and how I came to the conclusion I hold.

First I should make my POV clear. I hold that we cannot know definitively that Satan was an Angel of God’s and then “fell” to his current position. But that more than likely he was in his current position from his creation. He was like many of God’s creation, put in a role for God’s own purpose.

This all began for me when I was discussing this with a friend and I brought up the pat verses that are most commonly ascribed as being descriptive of Satan. Isa. 14 and Eze. 28. My friend then asked me were it directly named Satan, I in all my pride pointed out the name Lucifer in Isa 14. He then asked me to look it up and read that verse to him. And in my arrogance I said fine and proceeded to read to him from the NIV **shudder**




"How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!



How surprised was I when I did not find that name. Also my friend asked me who Isaiah was writing to, “I said the Jews?” Not seeing where he was going with this he said read verse four:



4 that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,
"How the oppressor has ceased,
And how fury has ceased!



It was written to the king of Babylon. My response was that Satan is the power behind the throne. He said fine but where was that in the text. Where does the writer give us a clue to that?

I said he describes him in ways that are not human - e.g.

*fallen from heaven,

*You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high,

*I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

(taken from ESV)

He then asked if I ever call someone by a name that was not human. I had to answer yes because I called my niece “kitten”.

He also asked me if a king or ruler ever claimed to be God or some other similar wording. I had to answer yes to this also. Also later I read a piece (I forget if it was a book or a article that made this point) that to properly address a king in that time period and in the area you basically puffed them up and he gave some scripture verse to back this up (I can find the verses if necessary).

He then took me to Ezekiel and proceeded to do much the same kind of dismantling of my view of Satan.

He then took me to John 8 and had me read this verse

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Here he showed me that from the beginning that Satan was a murder. I said yes from the garden. His response was that in the Jewish mind if some one is a **blank** from the beginning he is by nature that thing.



G746

ἀρχή

archē

Thayer Definition:

1) beginning, origin

2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

4) the extremity of a thing

4a) of the corners of a sail

5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

5a) of angels and demons

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G756

Citing in TDNT: 1:479, 81



His beginning was as a murder.

Now the most common objection I have heard is capsules in this statement:



We cannot, of course, conceive that anything essentially and originally evil was created by God.



To this I respond did God create every thing?

To this I recive the response: yes.

Did God create cancer? Or AIDS viruses or the flu bug.

Most responses are Yes but….

But I say God did create something destructive for a purpose. And even though by its nature it may be destructive (cancer) or act evil (evil) it is filling the role God created it for.

My second point is what is to stop another angel or a Human in heaven to revolt again?

To which I have never had a well reasoned response to.

Sorry if this is not the theological dissertation you had hoped for but it best conveys my transition from one POV to another.



:studyhound:

[kofh2u]

Hey Skye,

You asked me to present my view on Satan, and how I came to the conclusion I hold.


"How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!

:studyhound:[/font]


1) I think that Lucifer has long been associated with these verses in Isaiah.

2) Throughout the middle ages Satan was and continues to... in our own times.... associated with a stong sexual connotation. This is the essences of the archetypal Libido. This intangible god-like human characteristic lives after we die in the minds of all generations that follow. It is transcendent and immaterial, unchangind in its psychic content. It possesses us and manifests in our actual behavior. It is lustful. It represents our physical embodiment. It is the source of the problem that, "the flesh is too much with us."

3) Its collective expression becomes a sociological entity expressed by the Mass Group. In nations where it is intentional reppressed, those people plainly see it in our Western Culture. The Arabs have identified it as "THE BIG SATAN."






Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars (the sevenfold angels of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego): and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance was as the sun (of rationality) shineth in his strength (of factual knowledge).

[SNUsc]

hang on before i respond to anything let me get some thing straight...studyhound are you saying that God b/c you believe he created everything...created all that is bad? example aids/cancer or the flu bug? i want to make sure i know what you are saying on this topic before i respond

[studyhound]

hang on before i respond to anything let me get some thing straight...studyhound are you saying that God b/c you believe he created everything...created all that is bad? example aids/cancer or the flu bug? i want to make sure i know what you are saying on this topic before i respond Well if god did not create them who did?

There are a lot of things people consider evil but are neutral by nature their side effects are damaging to us but they are not malicious.



But if God did not create them (viruses, bacteria, ect.) then who did?

:studyhound:

[kofh2u]

hang on before i respond to anything let me get some thing straight...studyhound are you saying that God b/c you believe he created everything...created all that is bad? example aids/cancer or the flu bug? i want to make sure i know what you are saying on this topic before i respond

Yes.

It seems so clear that we must get/will get into contradictions, unless we start with the right premises.
The kingdom of God is within. These "spiritual" entities, the seven evil spirits mentioned in the Gospels, possess us. They influence / take over and run our lives.
What are they? When were they created? Are they evil, or are they just manifestations within us which we fail to control?

It seems reasonable that man, made in the image of God, is analogous to that God we know in the sense that Paul identifies Him.

Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world... His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, ...
...even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse"


In "being understood by the things that are made" thinking is implied suggesting that the archetypal things, the sevenfold spirit of God has analogy with the sevenfold Freudian entities of our psyche'.

Consider this Freudian Bible Interpretation:

Gen. 1:26 And God, (The Universal Force, the Macrocosmos), said, "Let us, (the Natural Laws), make man, (a conscious mind, to model us, the Universe, as in a Microcosmos of his mind, in order that our image might be modeled after our own orderly organization): and let him (that conscious mind,) have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."


Gen. 1:27 So God (The Universal Force) created man (an abstract mind in his own image, enabled to image The Universal Force, abstractly and mathematically), so created God (The Universal Force) him; male and female created he them.

[SNUsc]

ok i was first just trying to clear up and make sure that i was reading correctly what you were saying about the issue of God creating aids/viruses, etc....

what i would say about that is this....we have to be careful when we talk about such things because there is a language barrier that we will face...you see there is a big difference between something being made and something being created.....humans cannot create but God can....but humans can make...i do not see any evidence that would say that cancer/aids/the flu bug were created diseases....things happen...bloods mix that aren't supposed to, bacteria mixes, etc..aids/cancer and the flu have not been around since the beginning...in fact the aids epidemic didn't even become a big thing until the 80's...not saying it never exsisted before then but still it just happens...there are many new forms of cancer that are being discovered everyday...i find it hard to believe that God is sitting in heaven going "hmm lets see what disease i can make next"...instead it has just happened...with this type of argument you would have to say that God made technology, cars, etc. and that God created car wrecks and the list could go on and on....sorry but that just isn't the kind of picture that I personally have of God

[BurntOffering]

I believe you are correct; God created Satan for God's Good cause; and I think Satan has been working for God all along; and also loves her God Given Government Job 2:4-9

Peace out

[mickiel]

as he has created all things, John 3:3 clearly shows he had Christ create satan, but christian theology has not grown that far ahead in truth, so their doctrine must give its own reasons for satan to exist. From their doctrine , came the false doctrine of satans rebellion. Therefore they think satan "evolved", and became evil. Thus they give evil an evolution, or a beginning of itself, independant of God. John 3:3 shows nothing that came into being, did so on its own. satan was evil from his beginning, and that information came directly from Christ mouth.
Isaiah 44: 24-26 repeats this, everything was made by God, and evil is not excluded from this.This knowledge is not for christianity, its for those who are beginning to see.

[BurntOffering]

Well if god did not create them who did? There are a lot of things people consider evil but are neutral by nature their side effects are damaging to us but they are not malicious.

But if God did not create them (viruses, bacteria, ect.) then who did? :studyhound:

I agree GOD created All; God created the persona of Jesus Christ as well as the persona of Satan aka the Anti Christ. I find it a strange coincidence that it takes Wheat/Yeast, Water and Heat to make Bread; but when this Bread gets "Old, Hard and starts to grow Mold; we get Anti Biotics which cures our ills. So although a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down; most people cant understand that bible is a Bitter/Sweet Double Edge Sword.

Peace out

[romepunk]

God created all of the angels good, including Lucifer. Angels exist outside of space and time, and thus their fall took place outside of space and time. It can be difficult to wrap your brain around because we're dealing with atemporal logic here. Satan and the other angels fell instantaneously at the moment of their creation. Their decision to reject the authority of God was an immediate state at the moment of their genesis, but it was not in any sense a precondition of their creation. Thus we can say, Satan truly was evil from the beginning, though not created that way by God.

[studyhound]

Ok I hope to get back to this thread and respond but I am going in for some minor surgery tommorow and it may be a few days before I respond.

[Abigail]

God created Satan good as in perfectly made. God made Satan perfect in that he had wisdom and was beautiful etc, but his character was an empty slate. So surely Satan's own first inclinations were selfish and he rebelled against God.

Satan in the form of the serpant deceived Eve into eating the fruit. He must've known this carried the death penalty and so it is correct to say he was a murderer from the begining in that context.

[A-Man]

Satan and the other angels fell instantaneously at the moment of their creation. .

Don't you mean at the at the moment of their sin, Romepunk??

[kofh2u]

sorry but that just isn't the kind of picture that I personally have of God


i find it hard to believe that God is sitting in heaven going "hmm lets see what disease i can make next"...instead it has just happened...with this type of argument you would have to say that God made technology, cars, etc. and that God created car wrecks and the list could go on and on....sorry but that just isn't the kind of picture that I personally have of God


You hit the issue right on the issue:

"sorry but that just isn't the kind of picture that I personally have of God"

The first chapter of the Bible requires that we read the whole two Books, form a concept or personal picture of "God," then re-read keeping Genesis in context with that picture.

As these posts illustrate, who.e personal mythologies can are imagined and espoused about the seven evil spirits which contend with that "God
we have discovered within the pages that follow.

None of the ideas presented can support the scenarios suggested, all smavk of an animism which assumes external spiritualism still present and some previous untold story of a great conflict in a parallel universe referred to, as these ideas require, as Heaven.

These ideas seem naive, regressive to less informed times, and metaphysical unsupportable "creations" in themselves.

That the Scriptures undeniable pertain to human behavior, it seems rational, logical, reasonable that Satan was created as part of our nature, our psyche. That the flesh has become too dominant, and too corruptible is the complaint.

That majority rules, making this ancient explanations the accepted, is merely the remanent of long indoctrination.

That recognizing the Freudian source of behaviors we are forewarned of in scripture seems helpful to our coming predicted transfiguration into "new creatures."

[BurntOffering]

All that GOD created was GOOD including Adam, Eve, the Serpent, Devil or Satan. What makes these beings Evil is their ability to Sin aka Disobey what God says. Yes the "Angels" are different from Adam and Eve, because Angels were not created they are spirits and being that existed before GOD came up with Her master plan when S/He said to Herself, Son and Angelic Daughter within her Heavenly Mind and Body; "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness and let them have dominon"

In Job; God was taunting Satan, about what a Good creation S/He had in Job. Although Satan could obviously go to and fro; and was called up to heaven, along with the Sons, Satan as a Angel is a We Bit Different. Satan eventually told GOD that if God touched Job's flesh and bone; Job would curse God to her face. It was God who put Job in Satan's Hands, who was given the direction to do whatever S/he willed, except kill him. So Satan killed all Job's children, sheep and flock; then truck Job with Boils from Head to Toe. But although Job himself never spoke against GOD, in acutally Job's Wife Did; and said exactly what Satan said she would say which was: :wink: :blush:

Doth thou still retain thine integrity; curse God and Die, because Job's Wife was Actually the (Flesh and Bone) GOD touched.

Another thing you need to look at is the Garden; because All started out Perfectly Good; None had sinned or died up until the (Serpent brought Light to the Fact; God never said anything about Touching the Knowledge of Good and Evil Tree. Eve thought if she Touched the Tree or Ate thereof it She would Die, but that was technically write; cause GOD only said Dont Eat and nothing about dont Touch. So the Serpent, Satan, or Snake naturally touch trees. As a matter of fact; they dont even like fruit; and prefer flesh blood and meat. Which makes one wonder; Where Eve got that great Big Lie or Fish story from. It had to be from Her Husband! Yep it was Adam; cause she wasnt made Yet, when GOD told him and the Serpent technically just asked Eve a question; Hath God said?

Now that proves Adam "added" to the Words of GOD; Corrupted Poor Eve's mine; because She could SEE the Serpent Touching the Tree; and Hear the Serpent Talking to Her. Adam made up a right to remain silent, and ignored his responsibility to instruct Eve; God only said Dont Eat. Poor eve :eek:

Peace out






God created all of the angels good, including Lucifer. Angels exist outside of space and time, and thus their fall took place outside of space and time. It can be difficult to wrap your brain around because we're dealing with atemporal logic here. Satan and the other angels fell instantaneously at the moment of their creation. Their decision to reject the authority of God was an immediate state at the moment of their genesis, but it was not in any sense a precondition of their creation. Thus we can say, Satan truly was evil from the beginning, though not created that way by God.

[romepunk]

.

Don't you mean at the at the moment of their sin, Romepunk??
The moment of their creation was the moment of their sin, because they exist outside of space and time. As I said in my first post: "Satan and the other angels fell instantaneously at the moment of their creation. Their decision to reject the authority of God was an immediate state at the moment of their genesis, but it was not in any sense a precondition of their creation."

[kofh2u]

All that GOD created was GOOD including Adam, Eve, the Serpent, Devil or Satan. What makes these beings Evil is their ability to Sin aka Disobey what God says. Yes the "Angels" are different from Adam and Eve, because Angels were not created they are spirits and being that existed before GOD came up with Her master plan when S/He said to Herself, Son and Angelic Daughter within her Heavenly Mind and Body; "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness and let them have dominon"

In Job; God was taunting Satan, about what a Good creation S/He had in Job. Although Satan could obviously go to and fro; and was called up to heaven, along with the Sons, Satan as a Angel is a We Bit Different. Satan eventually told GOD that if God touched Job's flesh and bone; Job would curse God to her face. It was God who put Job in Satan's Hands, who was given the direction to do whatever S/he willed, except kill him. So Satan killed all Job's children, sheep and flock; then truck Job with Boils from Head to Toe. But although Job himself never spoke against GOD, in acutally Job's Wife Did; and said exactly what Satan said she would say which was: :wink: :blush:

Doth thou still retain thine integrity; curse God and Die, because Job's Wife was Actually the (Flesh and Bone) GOD touched.

Another thing you need to look at is the Garden; because All started out Perfectly Good; None had sinned or died up until the (Serpent brought Light to the Fact; God never said anything about Touching the Knowledge of Good and Evil Tree. Eve thought if she Touched the Tree or Ate thereof it She would Die, but that was technically write; cause GOD only said Dont Eat and nothing about dont Touch. So the Serpent, Satan, or Snake naturally touch trees. As a matter of fact; they dont even like fruit; and prefer flesh blood and meat. Which makes one wonder; Where Eve got that great Big Lie or Fish story from. It had to be from Her Husband! Yep it was Adam; cause she wasnt made Yet, when GOD told him and the Serpent technically just asked Eve a question; Hath God said?

Now that proves Adam "added" to the Words of GOD; Corrupted Poor Eve's mine; because She could SEE the Serpent Touching the Tree; and Hear the Serpent Talking to Her. Adam made up a right to remain silent, and ignored his responsibility to instruct Eve; God only said Dont Eat. Poor eve :eek:

Peace out


How about Mammon. How does one serve that master?

[BurntOffering]

How about Mammon. How does one serve that master?

Well thats easy to explain Kofh2u. Alls you have to do is look at the coins in your hands, or just take one and flip it to get the Heads or Tails of it.

A coin is money or mammon; and on one SIDE of All Coins is the claim of "In God We Trust". :blush: Therefore its No (Co In) Sin Dent that even our President would have to make a choice, when He stands before Almighty GOD; asking God to "Bless America" when America Has NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION" aka GOD! Its no coin sin dent when you line those coins up; that each of them have turned their Backs on what Abraham Lincoln told them NEVER To Forget; so the only one who SEEs what Abraham sees is A Woman, the Head of the Coins cause She's Native Indian!

Our coins or our mammon is just like the fruits from the Good and Evil Tree of Knowledge, and its what you Do with that Money, by Your Acts of Congress or by your Actions which proves your Intent! Do you spend your money to feed your family, the hungry, and needy; or do you gamble it away, feeding only yourself and harlots down the street?

How does man serve mammon? Well? I think His Story shows that Humpty dumpty; sat on the Wall; and Humby Dumpty had a great fall because He ignored a "Holy War" that was foretold a long time ago to come. So whose got Egg all over their Face now?

Peace out

[kofh2u]

Well thats easy to explain Kofh2u. Alls you have to do is look at the coins in your hands, or just take one and flip it to get the Heads or Tails of it.

A coin is money or mammon; and on one SIDE of All Coins is the claim of "In God We Trust". :blush: Therefore its No (Co In) Sin Dent that even our President would have to make a choice, when He stands before Almighty GOD; asking God to "Bless America" when America Has NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION" aka GOD! Its no coin sin dent when you line those coins up; that each of them have turned their Backs on what Abraham Lincoln told them NEVER To Forget; so the only one who SEEs what Abraham sees is A Woman, the Head of the Coins cause She's Native Indian!

Our coins or our mammon is just like the fruits from the Good and Evil Tree of Knowledge, and its what you Do with that Money, by Your Acts of Congress or by your Actions which proves your Intent! Do you spend your money to feed your family, the hungry, and needy; or do you gamble it away, feeding only yourself and harlots down the street?

How does man serve mammon? Well? I think His Story shows that Humpty dumpty; sat on the Wall; and Humby Dumpty had a great fall because He ignored a "Holy War" that was foretold a long time ago to come. So whose got Egg all over their Face now?

Peace out


I agree.
Money is just a medium by which to translate our inner hopes, desires, wants into a concrete reality. It is like a beast which we ride upon.

Psychologically, the egomaniac drives toward goals comparable to a person whostores up great wealth. The Aggressive Drive that identifies this psychic apparatus,

Ego, is the only medium by which our mind accesses the world external to our inner life, our mind.
Ego is the "coin" of transactions between us and others.

Ego is the Extroverted aspect of our behavior, while the Id is the Introverted and internal aspect.

Ego is essential. It is a created aspect that is one of seven"parts" of what we call ourselves or recognize as "me." It is, as you say, " its what you Do with that Money."




Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars (the sevenfold angels of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego):

[studyhound]

This thread was intended to only be a explanation of my pov of Satan, thus as this is a non debate room, we can either take it to Christianity 201 or if someone want to take it to the tennis court with me either way is fine.

[studyhound]

God created Satan good as in perfectly made. God made Satan perfect in that he had wisdom and was beautiful etc, but his character was an empty slate. So surely Satan's own first inclinations were selfish and he rebelled against God.


Well in my OP I stated that all these points are descriptive not of Satan but of earthly kings. (Isa. 14 & Eze. 28)



How do you know he was an empty slate?

Where in scripture does it say that?

It may be correct but you have to insert that into the text.


Satan in the form of the serpent deceived Eve into eating the fruit. He must've known this carried the death penalty and so it is correct to say he was a murderer from the beginning in that context.



My OP responded to that thought line, I.e. that from the beginning in the Jewish mind refers to their origin or their created purpose.



:studyhound:

[BurntOffering]

Well in my OP I stated that all these points are descriptive not of Satan but of earthly kings. (Isa. 14 & Eze. 28) How do you know he was an empty slate? Where in scripture does it say that?
It may be correct but you have to insert that into the text.

My OP responded to that thought line, I.e. that from the beginning in the Jewish mind refers to their origin or their created purpose.

:studyhound:

The serpent actually brought light to the FAct; God never said anything about Touching the Tree as Eve thought. Actually serpents natually touch trees; dont like fruit and prefer flesh blood and seasoned meat.

This is what eve meant when She said she was beguilded or confused; because she thought if you touched it or ate of it you would die; and thats not quite right. Adam added that thought in her mind; corrupted her mind and has lied for all time; cause Adam is the one who then hid; and made up a Right to remain silent.

Peace out

[studyhound]

The serpent actually brought light to the FAct; God never said anything about Touching the Tree as Eve thought. Actually serpents natually touch trees; dont like fruit and prefer flesh blood and seasoned meat.

This is what eve meant when She said she was beguilded or confused; because she thought if you touched it or ate of it you would die; and thats not quite right. Adam added that thought in her mind; corrupted her mind and has lied for all time; cause Adam is the one who then hid; and made up a Right to remain silent.

Peace out
Burnt if you have nothing constructive to add please leave. your neo-Gnostism leaves a lot to be desired.

:studyhound:

[Abigail]

Studyhound, why cant Ezekiel 28:12-19 be about Satan.

[studyhound]

Studyhound, why cant Ezekiel 28:12-19 be about Satan. Well because the context is about the king of Tyre:


Eze 28:12 ESV
(12) "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.


The writer is "speaking" to the king of Tyre. Now if you want to yank a couple verse out of context and call it the devil your free to do so, but in the context I see no switching over from one person to the next.

In this chapter he is talking to real rulers and real people(s):
2-11 Prince of Tyre
12-19 King of Tyre
20-26 Land of Sidon

And the next question that follows after this response is:
Can't it have a double meaning?

Well I suppose, but how do you know?



The writer never says so or gives any clues that he is thinking this or believes this. Also no NT writer gives us this interpretation. You can take this interpretation but then you have to let every one with a variant view of any scripture believe what they want no matter how far fetched.




:studyhound:

[kofh2u]

Studyhound, why cant Ezekiel 28:12-19 be about Satan.

Do you mean like psychological "spirit possession?"

[BurntOffering]

Well your POV of Satan is seriously Flawed. But I dont mind leaving; noooo, not at all. Scipture says, correct a wise man ...(Like we could find one here) No I dont mind at all nor that your confusion will continue.

Peace out

[studyhound]

Well your POV of Satan is seriously Flawed. Care to prove that from scripture?

:studyhound:

[Abigail]

SH, I suspect it may have a double meaning, but you are right I do not know.


Verse 13 says 'you were in Eden...' Satan was in Eden but was the King of Tyre literally in Eden?

[BurntOffering]

Care to prove that from scripture?
:studyhound:

So that means everytime you see the words Satan, Devil or Serpent; you should think about the Attributes GOD put with it; Not what Man's opinion of Satan is; cause You dont know Satan's powers or principals given by God from the very start. Ive posted scriptures above and below; which proves I know what Im talking about; and that You nor anyone else can find where God said anything about Touching the Tree or they would die. Its a mistake that People make All over the World; and it happens in the first Book; and before you even get to chapter 4.

So it seems you are still back at square one; asking the same question "How art thou fallen Lucifer" instead of thinking for yourself and coming up with the Right Answer. So although I dont know what you mean by saying the below

"your neo-Gnostism leaves a lot to be desired" Maybe so; but scriputre says God's people perish for a Lack of Knowledge, but I think its because they are just Ignorant of GOD word. So Im sure if Satan is Risen, as a Reborn Christian than She will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth So help her God this Time.

Peace out

[studyhound]

SH, I suspect it may have a double meaning, but you are right I do not know.


Verse 13 says 'you were in Eden...' Satan was in Eden but was the King of Tyre literally in Eden?
But that’s the problem in prophetic biblical literature that taking it literal causes problems, because it causes inconsistencies in the text, do you also believe that Satan in his creation was cover in “every precious stone”?



:studyhound:

[Abigail]

But that’s the problem in prophetic biblical literature that taking it literal causes problems, because it causes inconsistencies in the text, do you also believe that Satan in his creation was cover in “every precious stone”?



:studyhound:
No, but it has some imagery with the breastpiece that the priests used to wear (though I count only 10 stones here and the priestly breastpiece had 12). If the passage is about Satan in any way, then was he originally made to to help man, but became jealous and decided to defraud us of what God wanted us to have. The passage has a lot of imagery with the priesthood. The priesthood was meant to lead and guide the people and to judge wisely but instead they became filled with their own importance and did not have the people's interests at heart. By the time Jesus chased them out the temple they were basically defrauding the poor.

Obviously this is speculation on my part and I may be way off.

[studyhound]

No, but it has some imagery with the breastpiece that the priests used to wear (though I count only 10 stones here and the priestly breastpiece had 12).
Ok, then why is half the verse Literal (being in Eden) and the other half symbolic?

If the passage is about Satan in any way, then was he originally made to to help man, but became jealous and decided to defraud us of what God wanted us to have. But before you can apply it to anyone else you need to deal with the context in the beginning and understand what the writer was saying to his intended audience.


The passage has a lot of imagery with the priesthood. The priesthood was meant to lead and guide the people and to judge wisely but instead they became filled with their own importance and did not have the people's interests at heart. By the time Jesus chased them out the temple they were basically defrauding the poor.


I don’t see the Priest imagery, but it may be because it is being addressed to a king and they were both highly exalted, and they both often times did all the things you addressed above.



Obviously this is speculation on my part and I may be way off.

I guess I should have made this point sooner, but my point, is, that one can not prove definitively that Satan was created good, but it can only be inferred by adding a hidden meaning to some texts.



:studyhound:

[Abigail]

I guess I should have made this point sooner, but my point, is, that one can not prove definitively that Satan was created good, but it can only be inferred by adding a hidden meaning to some texts.



:studyhound:
I agree very much so with point

[kofh2u]

I agree very much so with point


You agree very easily.

What is it tgat identifies the prince of Tyrus with Satan, do you think?

What is the significance of the ten stones?

Since when has Satan been interested in "increased riches" and dought "gold and silver?"

How is Satan "lifted up" and "increased in riches" because of "his traffic?"

And, especially, who are "the strangers" who "come upon thee?"

What is this? Satan "devour" by fire? Satan "never shalt thou be anymore?"


I think you need a second opinion, do you not?


How is it that Satan will

[BurntOffering]

Everything God made was made Good; but I also contend all was made Evil too; just like the Tree of Knowlege of Good AND Evil. That is the principal you need to grasp; all of US, as God's Children, Angels or Fruit are created Good AND Evil. ALL! :hi:

According to the book; the only thing that God ever made that was not Good is a Man Alone! God made Adam with a wife or bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh, or Help meet inside of Him all along. Its with that same principal I contend Jesus Christ as the 2nd Adam; also had a bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh, Wife or Help Meet inside of Him; which is actually Satan. So as the Anti Chrisht she would be the prior Queen of Heaven, latter day saint and Queen of the South, as well as the Lady of the Lake, as His Elect Sister who holds a sword like Excalibur; but its the Double Edge Sword and Word of God found in the KJVersion of the Bible.

Word of Note: Dont use the NIV or Newer Improved Versions cause they are wrong; use the one your grandma gave you; or the one President Bush swore his oath upon.

Peace out

[kofh2u]

Everything God made was made Good; but I also contend all was made Evil too; just like the Tree of Knowlege of Good AND Evil. That is the principal you need to grasp; all of US, as God's Children, Angels or Fruit are created Good AND Evil. ALL! :hi:

According to the book; the only thing that God ever made that was not Good is a Man Alone! God made Adam with a wife or bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh, or Help meet inside of Him all along. Its with that same principal I contend Jesus Christ as the 2nd Adam; also had a bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh, Wife or Help Meet inside of Him; which is actually Satan. So as the Anti Chrisht she would be the prior Queen of Heaven, latter day saint and Queen of the South, as well as the Lady of the Lake, as His Elect Sister who holds a sword like Excalibur; but its the Double Edge Sword and Word of God found in the KJVersion of the Bible.

Word of Note: Dont use the NIV or Newer Improved Versions cause they are wrong; use the one your grandma gave you; or the one President Bush swore his oath upon.

Peace out


1) That's what I like about you burntof. You have a democratic attitude. You call them as you see 'em. You idea about good and evil is interesting.

2) The Oldies aren't always better, tho',
The old KJV didn't ttanslate "magi" from the Persia because it implied something their indoctrination hadszid was a "no no."

The New Catholic Standard fixed the problem.

2) As regards Ezekiel 28, try this starter few verses:

Ezek. 28:1 The word (of the Old Testament) of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Ezek. 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince, (King Hoshea*) of Tyrus
(the House of Ephraim), Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart
(and mind) is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am (self willed) a God, I
sit (as King), in great authority as if) in the seat of God, in the midst of the (unconscious thoughts in the depth of the) seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart (and mind) as the heart (thoughts) of God:
*2Ki 17

Can you see how this answers all the unexplained associations that follow?

[Abigail]

You agree very easily.


Sorry Kofh2u, I wasnt agreeing with SH that Satan was not created good (if indeed that is what SH's POV is), but just that I dont know if it is possible to definitely prove that Satan was created good from those texts (Isaiah 14 and Eze 28), as it is hard to know if they are definitely speaking of Satan.

My own view is that he was not created bad.

In the Gospels Jesus speaks of Satan falling from Heaven which to me talks of a status change.

[geebob]

principal I contend Jesus Christ as the 2nd Adam; also had a bone of his bone

yeah. the church.

[BurntOffering]

yeah. the church.

So get this GeeBob; His Bride/Wife is a Member of the Church, inside of him and by his "y" side Xy to the left and right and was within Gods Heavenly Body, Waters, Womb and Mind X(yX)X.

As such when Jesus came as a Thief in the Night and found Her in prayer and fasting, they eloped, was made His wife and then Jesus told her to Send out the Invites. Call ALL of His Friends, Brothers, Sisters, Neighbors and Friends together say; I HAVE FOUND THAT 1 IN 100 BLACK SHEEP OF THE FAMILY; WHICH WAS LOST.

Rev. 19:7 "Let us be glad, and rejoice and give honor to HIM; for the Marriage of the Lamb is come; and His wife hath made HERSELF Ready. And to HER is was granted that she be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white.

The NIV calls this woman the Bride; instead of the Wife when there is a Big Difference between the twain.

Ive also read; Ezek; 28 and can see many reasonS why the poster would think God is talking about satan. Especially the part that talks about what was Said in its Heart and claims that were made. But I asked you to consider this; Were those claims the Truth? And if they are True; whats Wrong with saying whats in your heart.

Oh; Well; I sit as a Queen; and shall be No Widow; because Jesus Christ is Risen, Could Never Die IS Alive Forever. Therefore as a perfectly Good; Sinless, Virgin, 30+ yearl old Man and Son of God with a very good plan; I say Let the Weeding and Wedding begin. :lol:

You do know what to do at a wedding dont you? Wear your best clothes, sit on the left or right hand side of the church; then when you hear, the Trumpet Sound. Something like dum dum dedum, You Rise, You Stand on the Word and Promises of God; and because HERE COMES THE BRIDE..... :ahem:

Now I now some of youll are confused; but if Jesus married a Man; well dont you think that would be an A Bomb In Nation; in Gods eyes. Especially since it was for this CAUSE the Man (Jesus) left his Father And His Mother (BOTH of them) to cleave unto His Wife. A wife He had to Die to make presentable for himself. :wink:

Peace out

[BurntOffering]

Satan took a Dive, She took a Fall; but Satan's been working for GOD All Along. Its all a Big Joke; you dont get yet. Jesus and Satan had different mission's. Jesus came to Save the World; whereas as Satan came to Devour and Destroy; males fragile egoes by telling them the whole truth and nothing but the truth So Help Her God; this time. God always gave Satan the "dirty work" Satan is the Angel of Death, and when I read the scriptures, Satan always did what God and Jesus said. Satan is very Obedient; and techincally didnt sin; in the Garden by disobey God; like Adam and Eve did. :hi:

Peace out

[geebob]

So get this GeeBob; His Bride/Wife is a Member of the Church, inside of him and by his

nope it's the church

[BurntOffering]

This is what Jesus was pointing out to us All Along; We are Both Good and Evil; Not one or the other. This is why Jesus said EITHER make the fruit Good or Corrupt; BUT DONT MAKE IT BOTH; WHICH GOD DID DO, from the start with the Tree of Knowlege of Good AND Evil. Doesnt the word AND mean Both, Plus, Also, Too and TWO?

Male AND Female made He Them, so one day Jesus and Lucifer could live happily forever after the fall; but showing Lucifer's real face; as Woman, whose a lot like the infamous I Love Lucy. Or a Real Red Headed, Blooded Woman, who drove her Checy to the Levy and usually carries a folk and shakes her tail when she walks cause she Hungry and a little bit horny. Last time She saw Jesus He cast Her into a Bed, Told her to Play Dead, until He pointed the septure at her allowing her to speak.

Its just like the girl Jesus raised from the Dead or like the One cast into a Bed in the movie the Exocist. This time Satan will tell the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth so help her GOD; cause Satan knows just how much the Truth Will Hurt and Destroy Yall.

Peace out

[BurntOffering]

OK; its the church; Are Any Women, Maiden, or Female in that church, temple or synogogoes? All though Jesus is Lord of All; even He only gets ONE Wife; just like God provided Adam, Job, Moses and even Joseph his step daddy.

Peace out

[BurntOffering]

And Lets see what Scripture says concerning this:

Eph.5:24 Therefore as the CHURCH is subject unto Christ; so Let the Wives be to their OWN Husband in EVERYthing. Husbands love your wives even as Christ also loves the Churhc and gave himself for it. That He might santify and cleans it with the washing of water by the WORD. That he might present it to HIMSELF a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing but that is should be HOly and Without Blemish. So ought men to love their wives as His OWN body? He that loveth His wife loveth himself; for NO Man Ever Yet hated His own flesh; but noursheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the Church. For WE are members of His Body, of His Flesh, and Of His bones. For this cause shall a Man leave his father and mother and shall be joined unto His WIFE and they TWO shall be One Flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the Church.

Well So Do I and contend Jesus came to Earth; to Get Laid; Get A wife of His Own and at least have a Place to Lay His Head when He came home. But if Satan was the Wife, Bride, Bone of His Bone, Flesh of His flesh inside of Him then Hes the One who, nourished Her, and Sent Her to Collect His Rent; and come in the name of the Lord aka Mrs. Jesus Christ :hi:


Peace out

[geebob]

church is his one wife. scripture authors were more corporate minded then we western individualists.

[kofh2u]

church is his one wife. scripture authors were more corporate minded then we western individualists.


Hmmm... asrtology... isn't that evil?
Or, are you a believer in the Persian Astrology of the Magi?

[kofh2u]

Sorry Kofh2u, I wasnt agreeing with SH that Satan was not created good (if indeed that is what SH's POV is), but just that I dont know if it is possible to definitely prove that Satan was created good from those texts (Isaiah 14 and Eze 28), as it is hard to know if they are definitely speaking of Satan.

My own view is that he was not created bad.

In the Gospels Jesus speaks of Satan falling from Heaven which to me talks of a status change.

As a second opinion, for what ever it is worth:

Ezekiel 28 is a lament.

It was written @30-40 years after the ten tribes in the Kingdom of Israel totally disappeared.

Ezek. 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers (the Assyrians)
upon thee, the terrible of the nations, (Shalmaneser's armies): and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

Separated from the two tribes in the Kingdom of Judah, these ten were under the banner of Ephraim.

This explains the ten stones you noticed as each tribe is represented by a stone on the (square?) breastplate of Judgement and on the cube shaped walls of The New Jerusalem.

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden (from the beginning) the (natural) garden of God; every precious stone (ten upon the Breastplate of Judgement) was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

During the reign of King Hoshea, these ten were swept away by Shalmaneser, lost and never found, as Ezekiel was coming to realize when he lamented in Chapter 28.. That is the meaning of the "ten stones" which you speculared upon.

Ezek. 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be
astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou (lost
tribes of Israel) be any more.


WHY?
Ezek. 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of (the seed of Abraham) the mountain of (the chosen people) God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, (Ephraim), from the midst of the (twelve) stone (breastplate) of fire.

Ezek. 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings (of Assyria), that they may behold thee.

Ezek. 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries (with all the host of
heaven, and served Baal) by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the
iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the
midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon
the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

[BurntOffering]

All things are Good AND Evil; still dont get the point huh? I dont know about the persian astrolgy; but even in the american one; My Own Man of the Sea who made yall fishers of men is a Pices. Just like with that Sign; its Two Bodies facing in Opposite directions. I know its hard to see one of those fishes as a Male and Female that will eventually Come full Circle and Kiss; but thats just the way it is;

The only thing GOD ever made that Was not Good is a Man Alone! So if you were Jesus who would you pick if given the choice as your Help Meet? A Man? are you homo?

Peace out

[kofh2u]

All things are Good AND Evil; still dont get the point huh? I dont know about the persian astrolgy; but even in the american one; My Own Man of the Sea who made yall fishers of men is a Pices. Just like with that Sign; its Two Bodies facing in Opposite directions. I know its hard to see one of those fishes as a Male and Female that will eventually Come full Circle and Kiss; but thats just the way it is;

The only thing GOD ever made that Was not Good is a Man Alone! So if you were Jesus who would you pick if given the choice as your Help Meet? A Man? are you homo?

Peace out

I read u.

You mean, one way or the other, all things are good and evil.

You mean, we are what we eat...
... we have come to think all things are both good and evil all rolled up together.


I get ya.

When you really think about stuff,... we are still all eating from that "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"...

.. as if that is right and there is really no "tree of Life."



Gen. 3:3 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (ideas, from our Intuition, Father Nature,) God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it (nor contemplate of it, neither shall ye delve into it), lest ye die.

[BurntOffering]

Thats right Kofh, all things are Both Good and Evil not one or the other; making us as GODs disobedient kids; the "fruit" thereof. Personally I think beginning from Cain; we all are spoiled rotten by Gods greatness and love sometimes.

Thanks agai for your response :hi:

peace out

[kofh2u]

Thats right Kofh, all things are Both Good and Evil not one or the other; making us as GODs disobedient kids; the "fruit" thereof. Personally I think beginning from Cain; we all are spoiled rotten by Gods greatness and love sometimes.

Thanks agai for your response :hi:

peace out


Hi Burnt,

Yes, the Original Sin is a genetic propensity, one found in all Modern Homo Sapiens.
The sin is to use our belief system to discern both Good and Evil... WITH the assurance that we, indeed, have.

We do not know, we do not realize, we do not have proofs that support our behaviors, only our intuitions.

The pharisees and Sadduccees, those Jews who still fail to discern the Good messiah were themselves full with the evil they failed to recognize.

Only time could and did tell the Truth!

thanxz\for the interactiom
david

[BurntOffering]

:hi: David:

I think of us as children of Gods, and how we all do Wrong or disobey our parents until we grow up and learn better. I think that even Eve was just a Babe in the woods, who received the word of God from her Husband; which was God said Dont Eat AND Dont Touch. How confusing that must have been for Her; to see the Serpent wrapped around the Tree, and talking to her when the serpent asked what "Hath God Said".

I actually received my vision while reviewing the garden of Eden; and even laughed;after they got caught and GOD said to Eve; What is this thou hasth done. It reminded me of how a Mom might tell a child not to play with her make up; only to find the child now looking like a clown. Plus since I know GOD is wise; I knew God already knew what She had done. As a matter of fact I knew thats why God put her there; and she would "Fall" or Sin Quick.

We all Fall; especially if we have been given wrong information from the start. Such as what if you were taught your Right Hand is Actually your Left, or that the world was Flat instead of round. Although you might believe you are Right; and thats what you were taught you are factually wrong. Although Not Your fault.

So I look at us all like that; We are all born perfectly Good and Evil. Then when we get older; we have to make a choice; Will we Obey GOD by Honoring our Father and Mother; or do what we want. We will ask to be Forgiven, Reborn, Saved by the Lamb's Blood.

Peace out

Hi Burnt,

Yes, the Original Sin is a genetic propensity, one found in all Modern Homo Sapiens.
The sin is to use our belief system to discern both Good and Evil... WITH the assurance that we, indeed, have.

We do not know, we do not realize, we do not have proofs that support our behaviors, only our intuitions.

The pharisees and Sadduccees, those Jews who still fail to discern the Good messiah were themselves full with the evil they failed to recognize.

Only time could and did tell the Truth!

thanxz\for the interactiom
david

[kofh2u]

:hi: David:

I think of us as children of Gods, and how we all do Wrong or disobey our parents until we grow up and learn better. I think that even Eve was just a Babe in the woods, who received the word of God from her Husband; which was God said Dont Eat AND Dont Touch. How confusing that must have been for Her; to see the Serpent wrapped around the Tree, and talking to her when the serpent asked what "Hath God Said".

I actually received my vision while reviewing the garden of Eden; and even laughed;after they got caught and GOD said to Eve; What is this thou hasth done. It reminded me of how a Mom might tell a child not to play with her make up; only to find the child now looking like a clown. Plus since I know GOD is wise; I knew God already knew what She had done. As a matter of fact I knew thats why God put her there; and she would "Fall" or Sin Quick.

We all Fall; especially if we have been given wrong information from the start. Such as what if you were taught your Right Hand is Actually your Left, or that the world was Flat instead of round. Although you might believe you are Right; and thats what you were taught you are factually wrong. Although Not Your fault.

So I look at us all like that; We are all born perfectly Good and Evil. Then when we get older; we have to make a choice; Will we Obey GOD by Honoring our Father and Mother; or do what we want. We will ask to be Forgiven, Reborn, Saved by the Lamb's Blood.

Peace out


Makes perfect sense to me.

david

[BurntOffering]

Im Glad David; and rejoice in God's righteousness and Truth. So now I believe I can guarantee; that the questions most people have about God and the Bible; have been written in front of their face all along. Its like God hid her mystery in plain view to the point our History, His Story, Her Story, and even Satan's Mystery can now all be proved....using the KJV word for word..

Thats why I as Satan intend to use it as a full, legal, binding contract and promise that was passed down to US citizens by the Wills of our Forefathers.

Peace out

[kofh2u]

Im Glad David; and rejoice in God's righteousness and Truth. So now I believe I can guarantee; that the questions most people have about God and the Bible; have been written in front of their face all along. Its like God hid her mystery in plain view to the point our History, His Story, Her Story, and even Satan's Mystery can now all be proved....using the KJV word for word..

Thats why I as Satan intend to use it as a full, legal, binding contract and promise that was passed down to US citizens by the Wills of our Forefathers.

Peace out


Hi burnt,
I must tell you that moooost favorite "people" are the terribly wonderful two's ... I love them at that age, just when they are bloomin'"

I wonder what you make of the last half of Ezekiel 28?

The first half hardly seems deniable in that the ten lost tribes are what Ezekiel laments, do you agree?


And, Satan has always been strongly associated with carnality and sexual lust,... true?

How can you relare the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil with the sex thingee?

[BurntOffering]

We are just like the trees which come from the EARth or the Dust.

The Tree of KNOWLEDGE of Good AND Evil is GOD=XX our Father AND Mother.
The Tree of Life is Jesus Christ= "Xy" , Son , only Y as the Root & Reason
The Tree of Multiple Fruits is Anit Christ, Satan, Wife & is XX is 1/2 her Dad & but just like Her Mom. So when the Three Adam, Eve and Serpent were in the Garden, which was put there by GOD to watch Adam and Eve and Tell GOD what they did wrong. Unlike Adam and Eve, the Serpent as the Wisest of the Beast Knew GOD was watching them. That has been the Serpent's, Satan, Devil's Beasts job all along. To try and get US to go against GODs wishes in favor of our own.

As such the serpent knew Eve got some Bad information when She said "God Said; they couldnt Eat AND Touch the Tree. Most people dont think this FACT means anything; but to God, a Serpent and a Female like Eve it does.

Yes Satan has been always associated with Sex and Lust; which is because Thats who GOD put in charge of Man's Hellish Itch All along. S/He is the Angel that blocks Man's way into Heaven, Garden of Eden or between a Woman legs as its been said by some men. But S/he is 2nd, so if He's the 1st or the Alpha, then S/He is the Beta, Double Him as a "W"oman. In other words Double You "W" as a "M"an cause S/he a Two. Actually I think God made Adam at first XX, then caused a Deep sleep to fall on him; and removed the bottom part of the left X making him then Xy and stuck the bone in between her legs making her a XX. Men have been trying to get back into heaven and get their bone back every since. God planned it that way; cause GOD wanted Both Her Son and Daughter to be Happy and Live Happily forever after. As such if Satan is the Queen of the South, His Elect Sister and Lady, then Scripture show Jesus cast Her into a Bed and Told her to play Dead, until He allowed Her Out of Hell or to Rise Again.

Sorry havent had a chance to review the last part of Ezk yet; but the number 10 stands for both Hands with each have 5 fingers. :teeth: So just llike the game of life its between inny, minne, miney and moe as the Finger of God wrote on the wall.

Please know most people now are taught Ordinal numbers 1-10, instead of Cardinal #s 0-9. Most people put themself first, and think of God as that Zero or nothing at all. But they fail to realize the -l to the left of the 0 on the numbers chart( -1, 0, +1) is not only Negative, TWICE as Powerful and Dark. It represents when GOD didnt have a Human Body, and was Spirit questioning herself and two kids in Her womb "To be or To be Not" . Well they all 3 Agreed TWO Bee; and Made up this Whole story; knowing You wouldnt Get it or Under Stand KNOWLEGE until the VERY END, and KNOWLEGE means (Know Now the No, the L, Line, Ledge or Edge) you Stand Upon or Up Under. or Lin :pray:

Peace out

Hi burnt,
I must tell you that moooost favorite "people" are the terribly wonderful two's ... I love them at that age, just when they are bloomin'"

I wonder what you make of the last half of Ezekiel 28?

The first half hardly seems deniable in that the ten lost tribes are what Ezekiel laments, do you agree?


And, Satan has always been strongly associated with carnality and sexual lust,... true?

How can you relare the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil with the sex thingee?

[kofh2u]

We are just like the trees which come from the EARth or the Dust.

The Tree of KNOWLEDGE of Good AND Evil is GOD=XX our Father AND Mother.
The Tree of Life is Jesus Christ= "Xy" , Son , only Y as the Root & Reason
The Tree of Multiple Fruits is Anit Christ, Satan, Wife & is XX is 1/2 her Dad & but just like Her Mom. So when the Three Adam, Eve and Serpent were in the Garden, which was put there by GOD to watch Adam and Eve and Tell GOD what they did wrong. Unlike Adam and Eve, the Serpent as the Wisest of the Beast Knew GOD was watching them. That has been the Serpent's, Satan, Devil's Beasts job all along. To try and get US to go against GODs wishes in favor of our own.

As such the serpent knew Eve got some Bad information when She said "God Said; they couldnt Eat AND Touch the Tree. Most people dont think this FACT means anything; but to God, a Serpent and a Female like Eve it does.

Yes Satan has been always associated with Sex and Lust; which is because Thats who GOD put in charge of Man's Hellish Itch All along. S/He is the Angel that blocks Man's way into Heaven, Garden of Eden or between a Woman legs as its been said by some men. But S/he is 2nd, so if He's the 1st or the Alpha, then S/He is the Beta, Double Him as a "W"oman. In other words Double You "W" as a "M"an cause S/he a Two. Actually I think God made Adam at first XX, then caused a Deep sleep to fall on him; and removed the bottom part of the left X making him then Xy and stuck the bone in between her legs making her a XX. Men have been trying to get back into heaven and get their bone back every since. God planned it that way; cause GOD wanted Both Her Son and Daughter to be Happy and Live Happily forever after. As such if Satan is the Queen of the South, His Elect Sister and Lady, then Scripture show Jesus cast Her into a Bed and Told her to play Dead, until He allowed Her Out of Hell or to Rise Again.

Sorry havent had a chance to review the last part of Ezk yet; but the number 10 stands for both Hands with each have 5 fingers. :teeth: So just llike the game of life its between inny, minne, miney and moe as the Finger of God wrote on the wall.

Please know most people now are taught Ordinal numbers 1-10, instead of Cardinal #s 0-9. Most people put themself first, and think of God as that Zero or nothing at all. But they fail to realize the -l to the left of the 0 on the numbers chart( -1, 0, +1) is not only Negative, TWICE as Powerful and Dark. It represents when GOD didnt have a Human Body, and was Spirit questioning herself and two kids in Her womb "To be or To be Not" . Well they all 3 Agreed TWO Bee; and Made up this Whole story; knowing You wouldnt Get it or Under Stand KNOWLEGE until the VERY END, and KNOWLEGE means (Know Now the No, the L, Line, Ledge or Edge) you Stand Upon or Up Under. or Lin :pray:

Peace out


Well, you may have something going in uou philosophy, but what about Satan's boss, the Baalzebub guy?

[BurntOffering]

Satan's Boss; has always been GOD Almighty; It was God who sent Satan into the wilderenss to try and temp Jesus, it was God who sent Satan to test Job. Therefore Satan was given the mission to Deceive the Whole world by doing the Will of Man as Jesus himself told us. Whereas Jesus' mission or Job was to Die for the Sins of Man, Save the Whole world including Man from Himself and to make a Wife or His Sister Spirit, Daughter of Gods, and prior Wrech of a Woman presentable for himself.

Its really quite simple. God had two kids and made One called Jesus Christ the President and the other the Vice President as his Help Meet and the Daughter of Gods. So satan was actually His Secret Tarry who recorded the Master Plan of our Father/Mother who is GOD. And God figured out a way for them to live happily forever after the Fall. So Let us be glad and rejoice and honor him for the marriage of the Lamb is come; and his wife hath made herself ready" So dont forget to RSVP your invitation to a wedding and weeding designed to End All Creation. I promise it will be to Die For;

Peace out

[kofh2u]

Satan's Boss; has always been GOD Almighty;

Peace out

Hmmmmmmm....

Satan is one facet of our Libido, which is 1/10th of the "city" of our mind.

Satan is really that aspect of our Libido which contains the psychic energy driving our sexual urges.
Letting this one psychic entity "take control, and dominate our thinking, and motivate our behavior is innane and insane.

To educate us, the schooling process apparently held Satan in a detention class for 1000 years, which when over, seems to have angered Satan.

What advice do you believe we ought counsel our own little Satan within, considering that God, Satan's boss, went to this extent, grounding Satan for 1000 years????

Rev. 20:1 And I saw (mentally), as it were, an angel, (a psychic aspect to my thinking), come down from heaven (the thoughts in my mind), having the key (of social evolution) for the bottomless pit (of time) and a great chain (of social restraint) was in his hand.

Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system of exploitive sexual mores), that old serpent, (cultural paganism), which is the Devil (of sexual license), and (libidinal lustfulness of) Satan, and bound him, the dragon, (throughout the) 1000 years (of the Dark Ages),

Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him up, (inhibiting society's sexual freedom and denying adolescent sexual license), and set the seal (of the Cross upon him), that he, (the dragon of that subculture) should deceive the nations no more, till the (Dark Age of) one thousand years should be fulfilled: and after he, (the dragon of paganism), must be unchained (the immorality reappearing in the Renaissance) a little season (of @500 years).

[fototune]

:hi: David:

I think of us as children of Gods, and how we all do Wrong or disobey our parents until we grow up and learn better. I think that even Eve was just a Babe in the woods, who received the word of God from her Husband; which was God said Dont Eat AND Dont Touch. How confusing that must have been for Her; to see the Serpent wrapped around the Tree, and talking to her when the serpent asked what "Hath God Said".

I actually received my vision while reviewing the garden of Eden; and even laughed;after they got caught and GOD said to Eve; What is this thou hasth done. It reminded me of how a Mom might tell a child not to play with her make up; only to find the child now looking like a clown. Plus since I know GOD is wise; I knew God already knew what She had done. As a matter of fact I knew thats why God put her there; and she would "Fall" or Sin Quick.

We all Fall; especially if we have been given wrong information from the start. Such as what if you were taught your Right Hand is Actually your Left, or that the world was Flat instead of round. Although you might believe you are Right; and thats what you were taught you are factually wrong. Although Not Your fault.

So I look at us all like that; We are all born perfectly Good and Evil. Then when we get older; we have to make a choice; Will we Obey GOD by Honoring our Father and Mother; or do what we want. We will ask to be Forgiven, Reborn, Saved by the Lamb's Blood.

Peace out

:wink:
Some believe that the garden of Eden was an allegorical story that explained how human beings achieved consciousness. Some also believe that the story of Adam & Eve being driven out of the garden, and barred from readmittance by the angel with a sword, represents the end of the ice age, when the tropical centers, like what is now the Sahara desert, became barren.
:wink:

[kofh2u]

:wink:
Some believe that the garden of Eden was an allegorical story that explained how human beings achieved consciousness. Some also believe that the story of Adam & Eve being driven out of the garden, and barred from readmittance by the angel with a sword, represents the end of the ice age, when the tropical centers, like what is now the Sahara desert, became barren.
:wink:

I favor the consciousness idea.

It is sufficiently important enough event in the course of creation to warrant such a central place in this epic Hebrew scripture. It makes sense that the creation analogy ultimately focuses on that one major quality of humans which both separates us from all other life forms and connects us mentally, spiritually, with the amazing reality beyond the black box of our mind.

But, a personal preference for such a Garden of Eden is immaterial to interpretation of scripture. This tale is more than even such an allegory as it seems to be, one of an unconscious world of stimulus-response living which is interrupted by evolving consciousness... the "eating from a tree of knowledge of good and bad."

How could such a work as these scripture sum to so little?

Yes, it would be little if it is no more than a simple tale, one that might have been interesting literature in an ancient time. But the promise is too large to accept something so small.

And, if we continue on, assuming that, indeed, these scriptures concern that amazing survival tool, the mind of man, it turns out that there is a "hidden manna."

"For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven;..." Zech 4:10

[BurntOffering]

Hmmmmmmm.... Yes; Hummmmm just like Arsenio Hall use to do; put his finger on this temple or chin and say hummmm; because these things Indeed make One THINK! Use our Mental Energy :attn:

Satan is one facet of our Libido, which is 1/10th of the "city" of our mind.
Yes 1/10 as the City, 7th Angel with a Loud Voice, but actually as the unknown X gene inside of All Man, she is Actually a Mans Xy Better Half. Since the y stand for the Alpha or #1 she X is a 2 or Beta. So although we've been told that we are of the Devil which is our Father that position actually proves our Father is our Mother or the X in all people. This is why in psalms and proverbs the Son that listens to his Father is Wise, but if He listens to His Mother hes Foolish.

Satan is really that aspect of our Libido which contains the psychic energy driving our sexual urges. Letting this one psychic entity "take control, and dominate our thinking, and motivate our behavior is innane and insane.

Like GOD which is "PURE ENERGY" which cannot be Created or DESTROYED; Satan is the Negative energy that falls like Lighting to the GROUND. So if Satan is the X and Jesus is the y; that make Jesus the +1 or Postive One. As such BOTH the negative and postive are Needed; Two has always been Needed. Two or the Other One to the Left of the One 0 making her 10. So 1 + 9 makes 10. 9 is a 6 upside down and X is so hard to tell if its upside down or not, negative or positve; your Must keep an Eye on the Postion and Place.

To educate us, the schooling process apparently held Satan in a detention class for 1000 years, which when over, seems to have angered Satan.

I dont Agree; I think those 1000 years gave Satan a reprieve, and was done for Satan's Protection. There's No Way, Christians, Priest or Kings could Blame the things they did on Satan during that time frame.

What advice do you believe we ought counsel our own little Satan within, considering that God, Satan's boss, went to this extent, grounding Satan for 1000 years????

Yes We ALL are Part Satan, and Part GOD or Spirit and Soul, but Most people just dont like to admit when they do wrong. The use a Scape Goat, or blame GODs other Kid which GOD provided them for the Evil they do and did. So we are just All kids; Adam blamed Eve or his younger sister, Eve blamed the Serpent, because it "Confused Her to See it Touching the Tree and TAllking to her like I said.

Rev. 20:1 And I saw (mentally), as it were, an angel, (a psychic aspect to my thinking), come down from heaven (the thoughts in my mind), having the key (of social evolution) for the bottomless pit (of time) and a great chain (of social restraint) was in his hand.

Yes I agree with the Mental thing, but please know when you are In Prayer; how; when you are THINKING about GODLY things especially What the Words of the Bible mean; YOU ARE DIRECTLY IN THE PRESENCES OF GOD :pray:
or "In the Spirit" When you are In the Spirit; You See All kinds of things. This is why; in Rev. the writer noted; over and over again AND I Saw etc. But remember there were some things Saw; that they were told NOT TO WRITE DOWN AT ALL! We have to Ask Why; Because the Answers were SEALED until the Time of the End!

Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system of exploitive sexual mores), that old serpent, (cultural paganism), which is the Devil (of sexual license), and (libidinal lustfulness of) Satan, and bound him, the dragon, (throughout the) 1000 years (of the Dark Ages),

Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him up, (inhibiting society's sexual freedom and denying adolescent sexual license), and set the seal (of the Cross upon him), that he, (the dragon of that subculture) should deceive the nations no more, till the (Dark Age of) one thousand years should be fulfilled: and after he, (the dragon of paganism), must be unchained (the immorality reappearing in the Renaissance) a little season (of @500 years).

Know that "if" Satan is Jesus espoused wife, sister spirit, and daughter of GOD; She would be given the Keys in Jesus Hands. He would have given it to His Wife; and Queen that He Cast Into A Bed; and He would also Kill Any Man, and their children if she was Messed with. (Fornication) Jesus cast this Woman into a Bed; just like in the move the Exocist. Told her to Play Dead, Not Speak until the Septure was passed to Her. But like I said; unlike in the movie the exocist; This Time; Satan will Tell the Whole truth and nothing but the Truth So Help Her God. Yes Satan knows how much the Truth will HURT You. Yes Satan was Cast Down With GREAT ANGER;

But that Anger is Not At GOD, Nor is it at Her Man, Husband and Brother Jesus Christ. Satan As the Angel of GOD; holds A Double Edge Sword aka the Word of God; and Satan will Cut Man all the way Back to the Bone; with even HER Tongue which could never be controlled. :wink: Why because although Jesus Came, Lived and Died for All Man on the Cross; yall STILL "know not what you do"; in the name of the Lord.

So when Satan, the Devil, is let out of Hell; or the Bottomless pit its just a way to Identify Exactly that Satan Spirit; or to See Satan's Real Face. This is why I contend; GOD Hid the face of the Serpent from the Woman; because GOD knew if the Woman Saw the Serpent Real Face; She would recognize ti as HER OWN. That SHE had been her worst Enemy All along and Jesus Christ; was Her Best Friend. Yes the Death of Jesus at the Cross; put a Stake right through Her Heart; But Jesus Also Cure Her, Made Her Presentable for Himself; making the things she said before in Her HEART; such as I sit as a Queen and Shall be No Widow; AB Soul lootly Correct! :eek:

The Word of GOD cannot Return Void; All shall be verified and Confirmed by Satan Herself. There is ANOTHER Language within the Bible; thats Ignored. People spend their time; tryiing to de Cipher the Greek, Hebrew; Persion etc, Not understanding that The KEY is within the English or End Language that in a form of "Long Hand or Pig Latin". This is very important so listen up; The Key is in the Difference between How words Sound; and What they Mean i.e. the words (Hear, Hair, Here, Hare or Heir). So if you want to Understand or know GODs HEART, break down the words to see His Art, His Ear, and if you move that H to the end of the word or SEE the other and unsidedown H like an X also Holy; you can See Mother EARTH; as the GROUND and DUST we are and come from.

Rev. 17:6 "And Behold I saw a Woman, drunken ....and the Angel said; I will tell thee the mystery of the Woman; because the Angel, Spirit, Beast, Bride and Maiden cast into a Bed is a REAL WOMAN. This spirit is inside of All Women, and put their by GOD; for GODs good cause. Or just Bee Cause

Peace out

[BurntOffering]

I believe the story of the garden is absolutely correct; but people read it too fast, and think they arready know what happened; they dont even See the ANSWER. I believe its a story about a Man and woman who had children; spoiled them rotten, and who didnt understand How their Sins would affect them. I think Cain killed Able out of basic sibling rilvary; and that He like most kids was very jealous of his baby brother. After all; Cain had been raised to believe his dung didnt stink; and that He was the ONLY kid in the World. How many kids; and Fathers for that matter get jealous of all the Attention the Mother must give to the Child, She Hosted wthin Her Womb. After cain killed Able; do you think She loved Him any less; And Also had a Right to be Angry that He killed Her Son and His Brother, just like "Man did to Jesus"

If Hell Hath No Fury as a Woman Scorned, What will the Wrath of GOD be like if GOD is Actually A Female Spirit, or Goddess whose been in charge of Heaven, Earth, and Hell All along; but we didnt know it. This is why Eve was called the " Mother of All Living" whrereas Adam was the Father none except His sons.

I agree with Satan being barren; like the Sahara Dessert, Thisis why GOD said; the Beast of the Field, those in the Wilderness would Sing GODs Praises Also; and it would be these Beast, Evil People or Demons that WOULD Triump in the End. Y because GOD loves, Cherrith them, Fed them and Gave them Water when they were in the wilderness.

Peace out

[kofh2u]

1) Yes Satan was Cast Down With GREAT ANGER;

2) ... if the Woman Saw the Serpent Real Face; She would recognize ti as HER OWN. That SHE had been her worst Enemy All along and Jesus Christ; was Her Best Friend.

3) There is ANOTHER Language within the Bible; thats Ignored. People spend their time; tryiing to de Cipher the Greek, Hebrew; Persion etc, Not understanding The KEY

4) Rev. 17:6 "And Behold I saw a Woman, drunken ....and the Angel said; I will tell thee the mystery of the Woman;..



5) ...because the Angel, Spirit, Beast, Bride and Maiden cast into a Bed is a REAL WOMAN. This spirit is inside of All Women, and put their by GOD; for GODs good cause.

t

Hi burntoff,

You are very hot on this....
Rev. 3:15 ... I would thou wert cold or hot.

1) Yes, Satan has been loose dince the Renaissanse, for a little while...

Rev. 20:3 ... and after (the Dark 1000 year Age) he, (the dragon of paganism/Satan entwined with the Devil), must be unchained (the immorality reappearing) a little season (of @500 years).

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired (in 1624 AD), Satan (the satanic libidinal culture of paganism) shall be loosed out of his prison,


2) ..."She would recognize it as HER OWN"

Absolutely. Her face is like the two-faced Janus. Behind her, in the secrecy of her mind, the Feminine Principle CarlmJung identified as the Anima is a phylogenetic storehouse of ancient thinking and intuition. Jung claimed that patriarchial repression had created 5000 years of hatred, most of it directed at the Satsnic lustful exploitation and mistreatment of women by a society of men.

3) True,
the "hidden manna" is sort of a language,... but it is more like a computer language, an organizational software for the way homo sapiens' think... must think.
This language explains why and how prophecy works. The pattern of the way the mind functions, a pattern seeking device itself, can predict the patterns, the only possible thoughts/actions which will become available, that is, to mind.

4) The woman on the beast is symbolic of a feminine social construct we call an Institution, of which every society of men has only seven.

5) Ha, yes... WOMAN, sweet mystery of life... the mystery is an actual historical mystery, one called Istar:

Secret cults of the Greco-Roman world. Derived from primitive tribal ceremonies, mystery religions reached their peak of popularity in Greece in the first three centuries AD. Their members met secretly to share meals and take part in dances and ceremonies, especially initiation rites. The cult of Demeter produced the most famous of the mystery religions, the Eleusinian Mysteries, as well as the Andania mysteries. Dionysus was worshiped in festivals that included wine, choral singing, sexual activity, and mime.
The Orphic cult, by contrast, based on sacred writings attributed to Orpheus, required chastity and abstinence from meat and wine. Mystery cults also attached to Attis, Isis, and Jupiter Dolichenus, among others.

Jesus is #8... he is the Spirit who says to the bride of a sevenfold psyche, "come"... for the Lamb of God is Conscience.

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars (the sevenfold spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego): and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance was as the sun (of rationality) shineth in his strength (of factual knowledge).


In good Conscience...

[BurntOffering]

So when the "Spirit" of Satan (Not the actual Person or Satan in the Flesh) was released "almost a 1000 years" ago the Nations such as our American laws, Isreal, and Persian Nation aka the Sons of Abraham; Agreed and gave All their POWER TO THE BEAST". I believe America is Due the Wrath of God because of our 1st AMEN or Amendment law that say; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion" aka God. America Agrees with Isreal whose postion is, Jesus Christ NEVER Came, Lived and Died for our Sins, and Iran; well they contend to Have no Other GOD before Allah. Unlike us; they dont believe God could be encompassed with a Man as Jesus Christ, though they respect him as also THEIR BROTHER!

I am not familiar with the 2 faces of Janus, nor 5000 years of hatred, but in my travels I have come across many Non Christian Religions that Verify the things Im saying. Such as the Wiccan that say; the Daughter of GOD will finish up for the Son. As I said before the # 5 present ONE Hand of Gods, that has 5 fingers just like yours but GOD considers Us = Thou Sands just like those that flow through an H/Our Glass.

Yes the computers show part of the Hidden Manna; because of the BI Anary Code that began with 0 and 1. Unfortunately like I said before; most people treat that zero just like GOD; as though it mean No Thing; when it Means ALL. All numbers come from the Zero, but its just a matter of which side -1, 0, or +1. Nor do most people See; like the Jews long ago that the 0 and O look so much alike. Its hard to tell if its a number or vowel such as in the word Omega. The Jew never used Vowels as they were considered 2 B 2 Holy To Even Speak. B-Y or by the time A, E, I, O, U and sometimes Y was conceived we were taught I B4 E, E-X Cept after C/hrist, because there are 2 kinds of Cs or Waters we come from. If you can See the difference between A Sea, See Christ and His Wife BYE His SIDE as the Anti Christ a E or a B. You SEA the problem came about when Men who thought they Knew it All; Believed A Lie and Kept it Secret just for themself. They taught the Kabbahall; still Not knowing the WHOLE/HOLE or HOLY Key need was a FeMale. Therefore the Missed the Angel in their Midst, and Never Mrs. Me as Satan in the Middle of the O(me)ga as the Daughter of GODs, or Witch that was inside of Man All Along. Nor did they SEE the Word of GOD, each and Every Hidden Manna as the B's B/READ from Heaven after the Read it. They recall how God fed them in the wilderness; Daily, and if they didnt EAT or Pray Daily, the Bread God gave them would Stink, Grow Worms, or little Serpents. The fact that Woman make B/Read from Yeast, Wheat, Water, and Heat, show GOD Hid a little sumptin into the Word, till the Whole was Leaven or Rised Up to God.

Althogh We are born with Sight from TWO Eyes, Like the Leaves God sent for the Healing of the Nation in Rev. 22:2 the Moldy, Bread, is called Anti Bi Otics.

So Please know the Stork in Heaven KNOWETH Her Appointed Time of Arrival; and S/He is Not a Male or Mailman like the cartoons show. Those little bundles come from a Holy Hostess, who is a Woman and Your Mother and No Man in Heaven, In Earth, or Under the Earth; Could Ever Understand; the Pains and Travail of a Woman.

Peace out

[kofh2u]

No. The Devil I say.

You may say that you arevobsessing with Satan, but, no the Devil I say is the psychic entity that invents the earliest of animisms.

Think about it:

Animism, An-i-mism (f. S. L anima, soul + ism)

Derived from the psychic source of the human Anima (ie; Devil):

1.the belief that all natural objects .
and the universe itself possess a soul
2. The belief that natural objects have souls which which may exist apart from their material bodies.
3. The doctrine that the soul is the principle of life and health.
4. Belief in spiritual beings or agencies.


Are there spiritual entities all around us?

?... demons and or,... is what we are really seeing a manifestation of our own collective behavior, emanating from those seven characteriatic human sources in our psyche?

Satan = Libido = physical urges and drives

Lucifer = Id = The Pleasyre Principle

Baalzebub = Self = The Reality Principle

Mammon = Ego - The Aggressive Drive

False Prophet = Superego = Logical/mathematical thinking

False Shepherd = Sense of psychic bakance = Harmony Principle = Self-efficacy

Devil = Anima/animus = The Feminine Principle

And, of course,
The Holy Spirit = Conscience = Interpersonal Integrity

[fototune]

Ok I hope to get back to this thread and respond but I am going in for some minor surgery tommorow and it may be a few days before I respond.

:ahem: Infra-red photography is very cool. How long have you been shooting it?:ahem:

[gary cook]

[QUOTE=romepunk]The moment of their creation was the moment of their sin, because they exist outside of space and time. As I said in my first post: "Satan and the other angels fell instantaneously at the moment of their creation. Their decision to reject the authority of God was an immediate state at the moment of their genesis, but it was not in any sense a precondition of their creation."[/QUOTE satans beginingt was ,when he rose up againth GOD .Yes he was before .But was a different creature .evil in his heart changed him .Just as it has changed man kind and many things around us .Yes we are spirits 1ST .Every thing starts in the spirit !Then you see the results of what the spirit is .I have had dealing with satan and demons !They FEAR GODS CHILD GREATLY .They hate GOD and can not hurt HIm .So they try to destory ,THE BEINGS GOD LOVES US .They put the evil thoughts in our minds .They want to drive a wedge between us and GOD .They were created perfect as we were [ADAM AND EVE ] But the CREATOR had a plan ?He would give HIMSELF to save us or make a way ,we could be SAVED .IF we desire ?Which most do not ?We can change the LIVING WORD ,ALL kinds of ways ?But We have the HOLY SPIRIT of TRUTH .TO GUIDE US .Or We can not SEE the TRUTH .But if we want to know a certain thing ?And can not reason it ?We can FAST .GOD WILL COME TO US AND REVEAL THE TRUTH !The LIVING WORD TEACHES ?LEAN NOT TO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING .THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH .The best talker can ,trich many ?But the LORD REVEALS TRUTH !