'Patterns', Hebrews 8:5 and 'church'...

[Spiritus Naturae]

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.

In some of my inter-actions with the accappella Churches of Christ I find a fundamental error in the understanding of the word 'pattern' as used in the New Testament, especially in this verse. The understanding is that we, Christians, are to follow the 'pattern' in the New Testament in order to establish what we do in the corporate worship setting. In other words, it is a 'blue print' for 'churches' to follow today.

Any input?

:innocent:
Jonathan

[elysian]

I never understood churches that forbid instrumental music, and I wonder where they get it, especially when the Psalms give us examples of praising God with vocal and instrumental music:

For example,
Psalm 150 (NIV)
Praise the LORD . Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens. Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness. Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD .
Praise the LORD .

So here the psalmist advocates not just instrumental music with varied instruments, but also dancing and vocal music as well!

Where in the New Testament did praise and worship become non-instrumental or non-musical?

[Spiritus Naturae]

I never understood churches that forbid instrumental music, and I wonder where they get it, especially when the Psalms give us examples of praising God with vocal and instrumental music:

For example,
Psalm 150 (NIV)
Praise the LORD . Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens. Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness. Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD .
Praise the LORD .

So here the psalmist advocates not just instrumental music with varied instruments, but also dancing and vocal music as well!

Where in the New Testament did praise and worship become non-instrumental or non-musical?

Nowhere, Elysian, that's the root of the problem. But if one takes the hermenuetic of the acappella CoC, the Psalms are part of an Old Covenant and therefore, null and void for believers today. Interesting thinking, eh?

[Jaltus]

Of course the question becomes what they do with the verses from Paul which explicitly mention speaking to one another in Psalms.

[Spiritus Naturae]

Of course the question becomes what they do with the verses from Paul which explicitly mention speaking to one another in Psalms.

Well, you're in luck, Jaltus, as I can tell you what they told me...Church of Christ Elder to a bewildered 'Spiritus':"How can one speak to another believer in 'Psalms'? Paul was refering strictly to the voice, to vocalization and therefore instruments are negated."

Wha...? :duh:

[elysian]

Nowhere, Elysian, that's the root of the problem. But if one takes the hermenuetic of the acappella CoC, the Psalms are part of an Old Covenant and therefore, null and void for believers today. Interesting thinking, eh?

That's hard for me to understand. I'm Lutheran and we have a strong heritage of using all kinds of music and instruments in worship. We also understand the New Testament to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament, not a replacement or nullification of it.

Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17 (NIV)

and even more telling:

"He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Luke 24:44 (NIV)

So if Jesus says He came to fulfill the Law of Moses (the Pentateuch) and the Prophets, as well as the Psalms, then they have hardly been nullified! They have been brought to fulfillment and are known in their fullness. I still find it hard to understand how that leads to "no instruments" or that the Psalms have no relevance today.

I did find something that might explain the "no instruments" line of thinking, and it has nothing at all to do with Scripture, rather from what I see it goes back to early church teachings (NOT Scripture) and a desire to be different from both the Jews and the Roman Catholics. This "Sola Scriptura" church is making doctrine out of something not taught in Scripture- the same error that they accuse Roman Catholics and liturgical Protestants of...strange.

Here's the link to the Assembly non-denominational church's list (http://www.bible.ca/H-music.htm) of (non-Scriptural) teachings against instrumental music in worship. It's very freaky and appears to be more of a rebellion against Jews and Catholics than anything dictated in Scripture.

[Spiritus Naturae]

That's hard for me to understand. I'm Lutheran and we have a strong heritage of using all kinds of music and instruments in worship. We also understand the New Testament to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament, not a replacement or nullification of it.

Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17 (NIV)

and even more telling:

"He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Luke 24:44 (NIV)

So if Jesus says He came to fulfill the Law of Moses (the Pentateuch) and the Prophets, as well as the Psalms, then they have hardly been nullified! They have been brought to fulfillment and are known in their fullness. I still find it hard to understand how that leads to "no instruments" or that the Psalms have no relevance today.

I did find something that might explain the "no instruments" line of thinking, and it has nothing at all to do with Scripture, rather from what I see it goes back to early church teachings (NOT Scripture) and a desire to be different from both the Jews and the Roman Catholics. This "Sola Scriptura" church is making doctrine out of something not taught in Scripture- the same error that they accuse Roman Catholics and liturgical Protestants of...strange.

Here's the link to the Assembly non-denominational church's list (http://www.bible.ca/H-music.htm) of (non-Scriptural) teachings against instrumental music in worship. It's very freaky and appears to be more of a rebellion against Jews and Catholics than anything dictated in Scripture.

Hey, Elysian, I am familiar with that site. They are indeed a non-istrumental Church of Christ and teach that those who have the instrument in worship are 'lost' for 'the truth is not in them'. They do not seem to understand that Salvation is through Christ not some 'church'. Quite strange...

[Spiritus Naturae]

So, let us revisit Hebrews 8:5 and place it within it's proper context, that is within the verses before and after 8:5.

1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN."
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

Of course, context is of the utmost importance in understanding the Word. There is no set of law and regulation laid out in the New Testament as was found in the Old. The pattern here is 'example and shadow'. This does not somehow mean we follow some unspoken rules defined in the NT when it comes to 'church' and 'how to get into heaven'. It is all very clear. The non-instrument issue is tired and pointless. God has never interacted with His creation in such a way. When God speaks to an issue it is distinctly and succinctly laid out for us as believers to see, just as it was for the Jews under the Old covenant.