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Jaltus
March 30th 2003, 10:00 PM
Evangelical theology is not a monolithic entity. In fact, it is a fragmented system containing various viewpoints on issues even though there is a common ground of scriptural inerrancy. The natural question which one must ask is the one of cause: why is this true? What caused or allowed such a wide array of beliefs to filter in from the same biblical texts? The answer, in short, is hermeneutics is what divides. How one reads scripture is the most important question after determining what scripture is. One of the hermeneutical dividing lines comes from the specific texts that one group holds as normative over against what another group holds as normative. These normative sections of scripture are “control texts,” texts that decide how the Bible is read and interpreted.

This paper will deal with three important issues. The first, which will be traced throughout the course of the paper, is the concept of control texts. Since this will be constructive and descriptive, a working definition is called for, but it must also be a definition which can be nuanced after the investigation. Therefore, control texts will be defined for the moment as biblical passages that govern how other biblical passages are read and understood. Questions arising from this definition involve what type of texts should govern according to genre sensitivity and grammatical constructs, along with the issue of having a canon within the canon, but these issues will be dealt with later in this paper. The second matter is that this concept will be traced through the work of Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, and Gregory Boyd. The reason for this is because they hold common presuppositions and they are the leaders of the movement known as Open Theism, giving them common exegetical and theological aims. Each scholar will be looked at in terms of their stance on scripture and methodology (prescriptive), their actual practice (descriptive), and then a full critique including both positives and negatives of each author (analysis). The final issue is what Evangelical scholars can take from this investigation, both how to change in light of what the Open Theists do correctly and how to guard against their errors. A tentative definition of control texts will then be proposed derived from this discussion.

Clark Pinnock
Scripture and Method
One of the most colorful and creative theologians from the Evangelical tradition is Clark Pinnock. He has traveled from a staunch Calvinist stance to a classical Arminian position and beyond. He has always held to the same position on the authority of scripture, specifically he believes in inerrancy. He does, however, look to recover the usefulness of narratives, thereby widening (in his opinion) the understanding of inerrancy. This move stems from his firm belief in the value and authority of the Old Testament as it was used and understood by the apostles.

Important in Pinnock’s conception of scripture is his understanding of inspiration. He makes a clear distinction between the “mechanical analogies” of inspiration and a concept that allows for the full humanity of the Bible. Inspiration is what accounts for the divine aspect of the Bible without erasing the humanity of it. Pinnock especially thinks this divine activity should be seen as focused on the “preparation and production” of scripture. Derived from this understanding of how enscripturation works, Pinnock clearly draws a line between what is inspired and what is not, namely that texts can be inspired, but interpretation is not. This allows for the diversity of thought that happens within any part of the church, be it high church or low. It is through this process of conversation that he sees the importance of inspiration surfacing. As long as we realize how differences stem from what we understand scripture to be saying rather than the authority scripture itself has, there should always be a place for dialogue.

Methodologically speaking, Pinnock truly is a systematic theologian. He wants what he says to convey the gospel clearly, and he wants to interact with the current schools of thinking. Pinnock is very much a foundationalist and operates that way with no apology. He states that his four criteria for theology are scripture, tradition, reason (philosophy), and experience. He has no problem letting them freely mingle and work separately within his work.

Practice
Now that his methodology has been discussed, the next issue is to see how Clark Pinnock uses scripture. The overriding theme in any of Pinnock’s systematic work is that God is love. He outright states that this is his primary assumption in all the recent theological endeavors he has undertaken. The verse on which he bases this theological cornerstone is I John 4:8, which reads, “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” A quick perusal of his work shows that this verse often appears in his books. Pinnock even states that his idea of libertarian free will (LFW) stems from his conviction about God’s love, going so far as to say, “In a sense God needs our love because he has freely chosen to be a lover and needs us because he has chosen to have reciprocal love…” He even goes on to say that creation is itself an expression of love, of God wanting free creatures with which to interact. In order to give a philosophical backdrop to this starting point, Pinnock appeals to Kierkegaard’s notion of God’s passion being “to love and be loved.” Creation is not just about power, though it does show God’s power. It is truly about God wanting relationship because God is in fact love. This impacts the doctrine of God incredibly by taking away the near Deistic tendency of some to make the Triune God intimately connected with all of creation. This aspect of God wanting relationships then impacts how God is viewed temporally and it forces a reassessment of many divine attributes. Having “God is love” be a controlling text drastically impacts how one views God.

The next important issue is how Clark Pinnock deals with narrative texts. Explicitly stating how he wants to take the entire Bible as inerrant, Pinnock tends to give a much larger role than most theologians to scripture stories. His definition of inerrancy expands the bounds within which most Evangelicals try to stay. In order to take principles from the text about the driving issue of God’s interaction with the world, Pinnock naturally looks at narrative passages that describe scenes of man and God dealing with each other. Such passages as Genesis 22 and Exodus 32 become more prominent in building a theology proper. Jonah becomes a message only of God’s mercy and love. Job goes from being a quixotic book which commentators ignore to an integral part of salvation-history, showing God’s loving interaction with mankind. People are able to reject God’s will for their lives. It is narrative passages that actually show how God mingles with humanity in a loving give-and-take relationship. Since God is described this way, then biblically one cannot say God is not this way. If one denies the open relational view, one must then have solid reasoning for then a majority of the narrative passages of the Old Testament make very little sense.

That last point, the importance of the Old Testament narratives, leads us directly into the conflict between most Calvinist theologians and Open Theists such as Clark Pinnock. What about the language of accommodation? Normally called anthropomorphism, a major hermeneutical difference of Pinnock is that, while holding to the impossibility of ever fully comprehending the infinite God with a finite mind, he believes the language of the Bible is not a type of condescension enabling men to get a fleeting grasp of who God is. As Pinnock says,
“The dynamic metaphors have been viewed as accommodation to the human mind and not taken with full seriousness. They were given for the benefit, as Philo said, of those whose natural wit is dense and dull. Texts are taken for their psychological effect but not for their theological significance. Offense has been taken from the fact that they involve language drawn from the human sphere, but what other language is there? (How ironical that we who celebrate the incarnation of the Word should still balk at concrete images and that those who believe humankind is created in the image of God should balk at anthropomorphisms!)”

This type of language mankind uses is the only type of language mankind has, given by God. Theology (or the biblical text) is naturally going to be in human ways, since that is in fact the only way people are able to talk about anything including God. Therefore, this concept of anthropomorphism is at best a misunderstanding, at worst a construct used to ignore passages that do not fit into one’s theological paradigm.

Critique
Clark Pinnock offers many challenges to the general way that Evangelical’s do theology. While many complain about his results, his methodology is both a strength and a weakness. His first major weakness is his use of “God is love” as his overarching paradigm. By using such a passage, it would only make sense if all “God is…” statements were also considered normative. However, that is not the case. In one of the more daring parts of his book, Pinnock declares that God enjoys having a body. In fact, he even posits that, since man is made in God’s image, God does indeed have some sort of physicality (other than the incarnation). However, if a control text is one in the form of “God is…,” it is difficult to ascertain why John 4:24, “God is spirit,” is ignored. How is he able to choose between passages that seem to explicitly state what or who God is? This is a major point of contention, showing an inconsistency in the practice of his method.

The next major issue is Pinnock’s handling of didactic or doctrinal sections. Such books as Romans and Colossians are often outweighed or overruled by narrative texts. Due to the way that God is pictured in narrative sections, the exegesis and understanding of doctrinal sections are adjusted to fit the narrative. Sections that talk about God making plans in time (Jeremiah 18:11; 29:11) control texts that talk of God making plans before the foundation of the world.(Ephesians 1:4). There really is no reason given as to why narratives should be placed before any other genre.

Clark Pinnock does offer positives for the Evangelical theologian. The first positive is his full backing of and compliance with the doctrine of inerrancy. He might not have conclusions which all would agree with, but one cannot fault him on his stance. Second is Pinnock’s “recovery” of narrative. Most theologians construct their theology based entirely on didactic or doctrinal passages, with the noted exception of the life of Christ. This is quite a glaring inconsistency. Through the sensitivity of Pinnock and those like him, the narrative sections, especially in the Old Testament, have been recovered and are once again valid areas from which to draw theology. While one may disagree on the extent of the conclusions able to be drawn from narrative passages, it is a wonderful thing to bring those sections back under the umbrella of inerrancy.

John Sanders
Scripture and Method
John Sanders is a theologian known for his comprehensiveness and cogency. While many do not necessarily agree with all he says, he is a solid contributor to Evangelical theology. Sanders is also a member of ETS, signing the statement on inerrancy annually. He holds to a threefold method in constructing theology. First, the concept must have consonance, meaning that it must be biblically sound and fit within the framework of Jesus’ own life. Second, the model must have conceptual intelligibility, meaning that what is said must have internal consistence. Third, the construct must adequately meet the demands of life, meaning the practical implications must be consistent with Christian experience. Essentially, these three criteria form a solid backbone to any theological work done by Sanders. He looks to be biblically sound, philosophically consistent, and practically intelligible.

Practice
John Sanders, much like Clark Pinnock, relies on the paradigm of “God is love.” He takes this as his overarching theme and as the strongest biblical theme on the doctrine of God. No matter what the discussion at hand, Sanders always stresses God’s love and His desire for relationship. In fact, Sanders critiques others for not putting love at the center, saying,
“Western theology has had a difficult time placing ‘God is love’ (I Jn 4:8) at center stage when discussing the divine attributes. Instead, it emphasizes the more abstract and impersonal attributes of omnipotence and omniscience. In my opinion this results from the failure to place the discussion of the divine nature under the category of a personal God carrying out a project…Discussions of God’s nature that begin with the notion of ‘absolute’ make it extremely difficult to speak of God’s love as anything other than mere beneficence, in which case God cares for us but not about us.”

This talk of absolutes limiting the discussion immediately rules out anything else being able to be on equal footing with love among the divine attributes. Sanders goes on to argue that the entire conception of God as love rules out, by the definition of love, any sort of compatibilist doctrine and leaves only the possibility of LFW. The entire model of God which Sanders backs is based on the control text of I John 4:8.

The next issue in Sanders’ handling of scripture is his use of narrative material as being normative. Interestingly enough, Sanders has much more play between narrative texts and didactic texts than Pinnock does. While Sanders does draw much of his concept of a relational God from the narrative texts, he does not limit his discussion to those texts nor does he fail to draw implications from didactic sections. Though freely allowing the interplay between these genres, he does start with narrative (since it describes the actions of God) rather than didactic in order to form his understanding of scripture. Once again, narrative passages are controlling the ways in which didactic or doctrinal passages are understood.

Sanders also delves into the issue of anthropomorphism. He begins with the explanation that any talk about God is going to be “tinged” with anthropomorphism since all language is
human. Sanders deals with the biblical argument for anthropomorphism, specifically looking at Numbers 23:19, I Samuel 15:29, and Hosea 11:9. While affirming the hiddenness and incomprehensibility of God for finite minds, Sanders nevertheless defends using anthropomorphic passages by observing that these verses are indeed part of the Bible and that Jesus was the ultimate anthropomorphism, God incarnate. Therefore, instead of this type of text being God where God condescends to our level in order that mankind can understand Him, all of scripture is seen to be at the same level of condescension. Sanders goes so far as to turn the issue on its head, rightly noting that man is made in God’s image. If this is true, then man is a theomorphism, and God therefore cannot be spoken of in anthropomorphic terms since man is made in His image in the first place. His conclusion, then, is that anthropomorphism is an improper term, but that all parts of scripture are equally valid for forming theology.

Critique
Sanders makes a strong case for understanding God as love, which fits in snugly with his relational framework. However, his stress on the love of God undermines other characteristics of God, namely holiness. Taking under the umbrella of holiness such items as God’s goodness, moral purity, and otherness, it is easy to see why such issues do not intrude upon what Sanders is trying to accomplish. Even when dealing with eschatology, Sanders avoids the issue of judgment. By working on the concept of God as love, issues such as wrath and judgment can be pushed aside in order to make a stronger case. The problem with this is it turns God into a sort of Santa Claus figure, always looking for our happiness and not necessarily our moral good. Admittedly, this objection can be deflected by a more full understanding of love, but that is not the kind of picture painted by Sanders. The God constructed by him seemingly eliminates the room for chastisement and discipline. While God is love, God is also “Holy, holy, holy” (Revelation 4:8), something that should fit within Sanders control texts, but does not seem to be there.

Another major problem in Sanders’ work is his reliance on the life of Jesus. While at first glance it seems as if one should consider that a strength, the problem is that it eliminates a large portion of the New Testament. In dealing with the doctrine of God in the New Testament, Sanders intentionally limits himself to the life of Jesus, along with some scattered teachings of Christ. He says,
“In this chapter I do not attempt to cover all of the New Testament in demonstrating that God enters into genuine give-and-take relations with humans – relationships in which God takes risks. Rather, I focus on the person and work of Jesus, for it is in Jesus that God does something radically different in terms of the divine – human relationship.”

The only time he strays from this set course is to overcome objections, using the life of Christ as a foil for such passages as Romans 9-11. While Christology is a centerpoint of theology, it should not be determinative in how the entire Bible is read. While stating and actual having sections of interplay between genres, Sanders’ tendency is to take narrative passages and use them to overcome or reinterpret didactic passages. This also occurs in his handling of anthropomorphism in that he tries to explain away the concept by talking about human language as metaphoric and dealing by analogy with the entire concept of God. However, there is a world of difference between divine accommodation and true anthropomorphism. Since God is beyond comprehension (something Sanders admits to as stated above), then by necessity some attributes or actions of God will be indescribable in human language, so metaphor must be used. While Sanders does address this, he still misses the thrust of the issue. He tries to argue this away by saying that metaphoric language either is literally the thing signified or only loosely connected, and then positing a middle path which he chooses for himself. That neglects that such things as omnipotence are well beyond what any metaphor can deal with in a realistic fashion. Though taking the biblical text seriously, Sanders does miss nuancing by trying to chart an intermediate course based on narrative sections of scripture.

John Sanders does offer some positive counterpoints to his weaknesses. While showing a strong reliance on narrative passages, he does bring the person of Christ to the forefront of the discussion of theology proper. It is an often overlooked aspect of theology that Christ in His incarnation is still part of the Trinity and should be treated as such. This means, hermeneutically, that Sanders is consistent in keeping his Trinitarian convictions throughout his reading of scripture, that when one person of the Trinity is acting, it is God acting. Included in this reading of scripture is his recovery of narrative passages from theological obscurity and
pushing them to the forefront of systematics. In addition, Sanders offers his method up front, showing a conviction in that construct that the effects on Christian living are also an important factor in reading scripture. Theology is not just an intellectual exercise. While not being able to bring together all biblical material, John Sanders offers a balanced view of scripture, even if one questions some of his conclusions.

Gregory Boyd
Scripture and Method
Gregory Boyd is known for his controversial views and his sensitive style of writing. One can truly sense his pastoral spirit when reading through many of his works. Boyd, being a former member of ETS, has stated most strongly his belief in inerrancy. Boyd was driven to embrace his theological stance by biblical convictions, concepts forced onto him by his reading of scripture. He makes it very clear that he sticks closely to the biblical text in order to derive theology, not clinging to his preconceived notions. He explicitly states that he is trying to balance all the different passages of scripture in order to reach a place where each passage is able to speak for itself, not being overwhelmed by other passages. Thus his method is biblical investigation and reading each text in isolation before allowing the play of intertextuality to take place. This does not mean, however, that he rules out extra-biblical works from having some sort of influence on how scripture is read.

Practice
As with both of the other theologians examined, Gregory Boyd makes use of I John 4:8. Boyd says that God’s triune nature is love. Boyd posits that God created out of love, and even that God condemns out of love. Since love can only come from a free will relationship, then God allows people to choose which way to go. Some freely choose to be with Him forever, and some freely choose hell. It is due to God’s love that creatures, therefore, are able to go to hell. If He did not let them go to hell, Boyd argues, then He would either have to destroy something He made to be eternal or override LFW, both of which would be wrong. Boyd sums it up by saying,
“Thus, while the content of what rebels will must be detested, judged, and exposed as being the nothingness that it is – for this content is incompatible both with God’s love and with his right as Creator to define reality – the fact that free beings choose this unreality is not incompatible with God’s love. So also we may now understand how it is out of God’s love for these rebel creatures that he eternally grants them the dignity of choosing this.”

It is God’s love that allows the freedom which sinners take advantage of, according to Boyd. The goal of all creation is love and having a loving relationship with God.

Gregory Boyd also uses narrative to help for his theological model. While this is consistent with the other two theologians discussed above, Boyd goes a step further and includes pagan myths in his understanding of how the world relates to God. He even states that biblical authors understood evil as essentially a spiritual war. This tends to give more weight to narrative passages (like Daniel 10) rather than doctrinal passages (like Romans 1-3). A quick
scan through Boyd’s book brings home the idea that his theology is based more on narrative passages than on didactic or doctrinal. Boyd’s model of praying in times of trouble is based almost entirely on the story of Job. Of the 19 passages in the appendix of God of the Possible defending in more detail the Openness model, all 19 are narrative. Gregory Boyd uses narrative sections of scripture nearly to the exclusion of didactic passages when constructing his theology.

Boyd’s take on anthropomorphism is much less rigorous and nuanced than either the constructs of Clark Pinnock or John Sanders. What it boils down to for Boyd, is that he takes all of scripture at face value and so anthropomorphism essentially does not exist. His definition is,
“A depiction of God in human terms. The Bible is full of anthropomorphic depictions of God, but, I argue, language about God changing his mind, speaking of the future in a subjunctive mode, or being surprised or disappointed are not among them. These expressions are just as literal as expressions of God being loving, faithful, or holy. The point is important to the trinitarian warfare theodicy in that it is founded on a dynamic understanding of God who interacts with his creation on a moment-by-moment basis.”

Boyd also gives four arguments against understanding texts about God changing as being anthropomorphic, only one of which should be mentioned. His argument is that those who take these passages as anthropomorphic create a canon-within-the-canon. If these passages are God accommodating Himself to our understanding, how is it that people are able to “properly” understand them? This line of argumentation, Boyd suggests, is self-refuting since if God designed the passages in order for readers to understand them in one way, how can people claim to understand them in another? Anthropomorphism is therefore not a viable category for understanding how the Bible functions in relating God to humankind.

Critique
Gregory Boyd has a lot to say which is derived from the Open View of God. While he does have some strong points, he also has some glaring weaknesses. His first weakness is that, due to his staunch stance on the love of God being the controlling factor for all other parts of theology proper, it is difficult to see how judgment fits into his texts. While he does say that God will judge those who work against Him, Boyd offers no convincing reason as to why God would not, out of His love, forgive the unsaved instead of condemning them. If God is love over and above anything else, then God is not as wrathful as loving, not as judgmental as loving, and not as holy as loving. Therefore, the other attributes of God can be overridden since God is more love than anything else.

The next major problem with Boyd is his inconsistency. As stated above, he believes in inerrancy, yet he also thinks that the only way to understand the ethos of the Bible is to understand how nonbiblical cultures operate. This is, at the very least, a difficulty. He is also inconsistent in terms of how he views certain texts. On the one hand, he says,
“It is true that according to the open view things can happen in our lives that God didn’t plan or foreknow with certainty (though he always foreknew they were possible). This means that in the open view things can happen to us that have no overarching divine purpose. In this view, ‘trusting in God’ provides no assurance that everything that happens to us will reflect his divine purposes, for there are other agents who also have the power to affect us, just as we have the power to affect others. This, it must be admitted, can for some be a scary thought.”

Only two pages later he says, “[Openness] affirms that whatever happens, God will work with us to bring a redemptive purpose out of the event (Rom. 8:28).” These are two very contradictory statements in that one affirms God will work out all things for the good of believers and the other denies the same thing. While the second statement can be nuanced to say that God only works with people to try to achieve good, but that defeats what Romans 8:28 says anyway. It is also difficult to understand what parts of scripture are anthropomorphic for Boyd, or if any are at all. He gives a definition for anthropomorphism in one book, and then denies that there is such a thing in another. Boyd is inconsistent in what he says both from one book to another and within a single book.

While there are weaknesses in what Gregory Boyd does, there are also some strengths. Boyd is more than willing to admit that there are sections of scripture that are problems for his side of the debate. He also takes narrative portions of scripture very seriously and tries to determine from the actual text he is studying whether or not a pericope should be considered anthropomorphic instead of necessarily using an outside text to come to that conclusion. The most important issue that Boyd embodies is his willingness to let scripture be the driving force of his theological model. Though disagreeing with where he ends, it is hard to fault where he begins.

The Evangelical Theologian and Control Texts
Positives
Overall, there are many good things to take from what these three prominent theologians are doing. The first important thing that an Evangelical theologian can learn from them is to take narrative portions of scripture seriously. Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, and Gregory Boyd all take into account narrative passages when constructing their theology. Too often Evangelicals run to didactic passages or doctrinal passages in order to formulate a theological stance without taking time to consider how this would affect their understanding of certain narrative sections, or even using these passages to overturn the obvious meaning of a narrative section.

Second, each of these three authors shows a strong belief in inerrancy. Though many do not agree with their interpretation of scripture, it is difficult to see how one can fault their high regard for scripture. Even the opponents of Open Theism acknowledge their use of scripture. This is a fundamental premise of being an Evangelical and should not be overlooked in discussions on the issue of Open Theism.

Third, all of these writers show a willingness to converse on the topic and a willingness to change. In the exchange in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, each of these authors talked about the need for further discussion on the topic. Though most theologians choose a position and stay there, Pinnock, Sanders, and Boyd all show some hint that they would change their stance if it could be shown unbiblical.

Negatives
While there are many good things to take from Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, and Gregory Boyd, there are also a few things in their example that should be avoided. The first problem is the inconsistency with the “God is...” passages. All three agree that God is love, but then neglect such issues as God is holy, or spirit, or just. If one is going to specify a control passage with a specific formula quite evident, then it is problematic to ignore texts of the exact same formula with only a single word change. Therefore, in order to be consistent, passages with the same grammatical formula should be given equal theological and hermeneutical weight.

The second issue is the use of didactic and doctrinal passages by the authors. While each of them claims to try to balance their view of scripture and to reclaim narrative such that it is on an equal playing field, all three overbalance and use narrative texts to control other genres. This can be clearly seen in the above discussions on each author. Coupled with this issue of genre priority is the general paucity of didactic texts which in fact backed the proposals of each writer. While they each go into detail refuting their oppositions’ interpretation of specific texts, they also rarely use those types of texts in a constructive way.

Finally, the authors have a tendency to promote a very mixed view of what anthropomorphism is. While this is a difficult concept to deal with, it is also something that cannot be defined away. That God is too large a concept to be contained by human language is not up for debate, but the degree with which He can be described is. That is where the three theologians are internally inconsistent, discarding definitions from one page to the next. They start off denying that anthropomorphism exists, then they admit that language calls for such a thing when talking about God, but they deny that the passages which they wish to use are anthropomorphic without giving an example of what then would be anthropomorphic in their opinions. It leaves one to wonder if they can indeed give a definition that actually works.

Jaltus
March 30th 2003, 10:01 PM
Conclusion
A Proposal for Control Texts
If the post-modern movement has taught theologians anything, it is that all interpretation is done with preconceived notions. In the same way, theology is done with preconceived notions built on specific texts which control how one views other texts. Calvinists will claim that John 10:28 rules out real apostasy, whereas Arminians will claim that Hebrews 6:4-6 rules out automatic perseverance for anyone who was ever saved. Therefore, admitting that control texts are something in theology, the next step is to move toward a better understanding of how one might have a better way of deciding what can be a legitimate control text. Grammatically speaking, and the example will be about the doctrine of God, if a text says, “God is…,” then whatever God is defines who or what God actually is. Texts that make such absolute statements about a specific topic should in fact be normative. For example, Titus 1:2 says that God cannot lie, which would overrule any interpretation where it could possibly look as if God was lying. The reason is because scripture clearly rules out such a proposition.
The second major point of clarification for control texts is the topic of genre. If a narrative passage and a didactic passage are in conflict, then the didactic passage should be taken at face value and the narrative passage reinterpreted. The reason for this is because most narrative passages in the Bible do not give a critique of the values being displayed, whereas a didactic or doctrinal section is explicitly laying out how one should live. Therefore, in terms of controversies between genre, a doctrinal passage should “control” a narrative passage. Does having a control text fall into the problem of having a canon-within-the-canon? Truthfully one can respond in the negative, pointing out that it is just a form of scripture interpreting scripture. As long as one does not neglect or completely nullify what a part of scripture explicitly says, then it is just a difference in interpretation and not an issue of canon-within-the-canon.

Concluding Remarks
Hermeneutics is one of the most difficult areas to walk into theoretically, but it is one of the easiest topics to describe in someone’s writing. How one reads scripture is indeed a very important issue. Therefore, control texts are something to be examined, both in what one reads and in how one writes. In examining Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, and Gregory Boyd it has been clearly seen that their hermeneutical decisions very much build their theology. By taking “God is love” as a control text, they are able to build the relational theology they end up with. By defining anthropomorphism as they do, it becomes less of an issue. By raising narrative to the same level as other genres, they are able to build a descriptive theology. Evangelical theologians can learn a lot both in terms of what to do and what not to do by studying these authors. In the end, a tentative direction was given for what a responsible form a control text can take. In this post-modern age one can no longer hold to reading all of scripture as being on a totally even playing field, but Evangelical theologians can make responsible and knowledgeable decisions about what texts they will take as normative.

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Sanders, John. “Be Wary of Ware: A Reply to Bruce Ware.” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. Vol. 45, No. 2. Ed. Andreas J. Kostenberger. Lynchburg, VA: Evangelical Theological Society: 2002, 221-231.

Ware, Bruce A. God’s Lesser Glory: The Diminished God of Open Theism. Downers Grove, IL: Crossway Books, 2000.

Ware, Bruce A. “Defining Evangelicalism’s Boundaries Theologically: Is Open Theism Evangelical?” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. Vol. 45, No. 2. Ed. Andreas J. Kostenberger. Lynchburg, VA: Evangelical Theological Society: 2002, 193-211.

Ware, Bruce A. “Rejoinder to Replies by Clark H. Pinnock, John Sanders, and Gregory A. Boyd.” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. Vol. 45, No. 2. Ed. Andreas J. Kostenberger. Lynchburg, VA: Evangelical Theological Society: 2002, 245-255.


All scripture quoted is from the NIV unless otherwise stated.

Tercel
January 12th 2004, 09:16 PM
Jaltus,

Is this by you? If so, congratulations on your impressive work. I'd give you some pearls if I weren't so stingy. I've got a few random thoughts which your ideas raise...

It has always seemed to me that people arbitrarily pick their control texts and come to very different conclusions in their theology as a result. An attempt to objectively isolate control texts is laudible. I agree with your propositions as to how control texts should be chosen. At the same time, as an errantist, I think the whole idea of control texts is problematic.

I still think you're going to run into trouble with control-texts. For example (taking a wild intuitive guess) I would say that it's more than crossed your mind that Numbers 23:19 should be used as a control text against the open view. Yet there are texts such as Hosea 11:9 that have almost identical construction and that by your criteria would be control texts too, yet I imagine you would find some of them -that passageare certainly- entirely unpalatable as a control text.

Something else that comes to mind is the idea of using the Fathers, or the Councils as the equivalent of "control texts". Why pick scriptures arbitrarily (or according to some "best" method) rather than recourse to the Church on the matter? The way the many Orthodox theologians view the Fathers and the Councils for example is in the same manner as you are using control texts (or more presicely they consider the Councils as controls for the Fathers as controls for the Scripture).

In your comments on the inconsistency of the use of "God is..." passages you imply that the scripture says "God is just" and "God is holy". I was given to understand that the only "God is X" passages were "God is love" and "God is spirit".

You seem to be opposed to the OVers understandings of "just" and "holy" merely on the grounds it is different from the standard Evangelical ones. I am somewhat pleased to note that it is, since one of my criticisms of Evangelicalism would be that these terms are largely understood wrongly and need to be understood in the context of God's love - which the OVers seem to be doing. So I wonder is your objection to their understandings simply "this is different to the way I understand it" or does it rest on something more solid?

You imply that it is necessary to hold to inerrancy to be "Evangelical". Other people I have talked to prefer to define "Evangelical" as a Christian from any denomination who is "on fire" for God and the gospel, and thus oppose "Evangelicals" against the nominals and "sunday-Christians". NT Wright, for example, calls himself an Evangelical while not being an inerrantist. Thoughts?

It seems to me that many of the most influencial Protestant theologians are starting to borrow extensively from Eastern Orthodoxy. While I certainly hope that Evangelical Protestantism turns Orthodox in doctrine, I have to wonder if the lay-people realise this is occuring. Sanders is a bit of a giveaway though - "Western theology has had a difficult time placing ‘God is love’ (I Jn 4:8) at center stage when discussing the divine attributes." Is Evangelicalism going to turn Orthodox within the next 40 years?

I'm not sure I can agree with your assessment that Boyd misuses Romans 8:28, while you are doubtless far better at Greek than me and can study the passage yourself, from what I've read the verse is more than somewhat ambiguous and can be rendered fine the way Boyd is suggesting.

geebob
January 13th 2004, 06:27 PM
Sanders makes a strong case for understanding God as love, which fits in snugly with his relational framework. However, his stress on the love of God undermines other characteristics of God, namely holiness. Taking under the umbrella of holiness such items as God’s goodness, moral purity, and otherness, it is easy to see why such issues do not intrude upon what Sanders is trying to accomplish. Even when dealing with eschatology, Sanders avoids the issue of judgment. By working on the concept of God as love, issues such as wrath and judgment can be pushed aside in order to make a stronger case. The problem with this is it turns God into a sort of Santa Claus figure, always looking for our happiness and not necessarily our moral good. Admittedly, this objection can be deflected by a more full understanding of love, but that is not the kind of picture painted by Sanders. The God constructed by him seemingly eliminates the room for chastisement and discipline.

I don't know where Sanders deals with Judgment and wrath, but I think you're going out on a ledge here making some assumptions from silence. The notion that displine and chastisement and discipline have no room is especially dubious.

For one thing, Sanders does believe in eternal damnation and he is a critic of universalism.

I think this part of your criticism needs a lot more developement and some solid evidence would help.

I'm also a little weary of your comments on Sanders and metaphore, but that's a whole ball of yarn that is a bit over my head as well. But you must understand that it is a whole philosophical view of language and not just a view of accomodation. language is metaphorical accomodation. language is always less than what it is about. (it's post modern stuff).

Jaltus
January 13th 2004, 10:25 PM
Today @ 04:27 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=376351#post376351)
geebob:
I don't know where Sanders deals with Judgment and wrath, but I think you're going out on a ledge here making some assumptions from silence. The notion that displine and chastisement and discipline have no room is especially dubious.

For one thing, Sanders does believe in eternal damnation and he is a critic of universalism.

I think this part of your criticism needs a lot more developement and some solid evidence would help.

My point was that he needs to include something about it because his doctrine of God is unbalanced. Remember, it would have fit perfectly into his book to raise those issues.

That being said, he is going to be writing a book on it pretty soon (at least he said so in an e-mail). He is an inclusivist, however.


I'm also a little weary of your comments on Sanders and metaphore, but that's a whole ball of yarn that is a bit over my head as well. But you must understand that it is a whole philosophical view of language and not just a view of accomodation. language is metaphorical accomodation. language is always less than what it is about. (it's post modern stuff).

Did you mean weary or wary? I'd assume the latter as I have not talked much of Sanders at all lately, so it is difficult for me to believe you are weary of this.

I know a lot about metaphor. I think you'll find that Kevin Vanhoozer's Is There Meaning in This Text? deals with the issue nicely. You might also want to look at Michael Horton's essay in Beyond the Bounds edited by Piper where he takes up this issue in a few pages (which is funny because someone else in the book wrote an entire essay on it that was abysmal).


Tercel,

I'll respond when I have a larger block of time and more time to think. I appreciate your comments. Yes, this was written by me about a year ago. Unfortunately, I could not get the footnotes to come over. Also, an update to this might help due to all the literature I have become aware of over the intravening year.

geebob
January 14th 2004, 08:41 PM
I would like to commend one thing about your essay here (not that there isn't more than one thing to commend) and that is that the core of open theism is not foreknowledge. So you do have a better grasp of openness in that then alot of other folks.

Jaltus
February 4th 2004, 08:22 PM
Jaltus,

Is this by you? If so, congratulations on your impressive work. I'd give you some pearls if I weren't so stingy. I've got a few random thoughts which your ideas raise...

Thank you. And feel free.


It has always seemed to me that people arbitrarily pick their control texts and come to very different conclusions in their theology as a result. An attempt to objectively isolate control texts is laudible. I agree with your propositions as to how control texts should be chosen. At the same time, as an errantist, I think the whole idea of control texts is problematic.

Well, that is where we will begin to disagree since I am an inerrantist, but continue.


I still think you're going to run into trouble with control-texts. For example (taking a wild intuitive guess) I would say that it's more than crossed your mind that Numbers 23:19 should be used as a control text against the open view. Yet there are texts such as Hosea 11:9 that have almost identical construction and that by your criteria would be control texts too, yet I imagine you would find some of them -that passageare certainly- entirely unpalatable as a control text.

Actually, I would tend to look at didactic or doctrinal genres as controlling narrative, especially narrative that has no authorial judgment laced within the text. Remember, little of what I said in the paper was constructire, it was meant more as an appraisal of Openness hermeneutics.


Something else that comes to mind is the idea of using the Fathers, or the Councils as the equivalent of "control texts". Why pick scriptures arbitrarily (or according to some "best" method) rather than recourse to the Church on the matter? The way the many Orthodox theologians view the Fathers and the Councils for example is in the same manner as you are using control texts (or more presicely they consider the Councils as controls for the Fathers as controls for the Scripture).

Sola scriptura. Mind you, I think very very highly of the ECFs and hold to most of the early councils as well (with one possible exception). I am not saying I do not use the eCFs as a lense, but I am saying that I do not let them control how I read scripture. I let scripture itself do that.


In your comments on the inconsistency of the use of "God is..." passages you imply that the scripture says "God is just" and "God is holy". I was given to understand that the only "God is X" passages were "God is love" and "God is spirit".

No, they are not. Those happen to be the only formal God is X in the NT, but the OT has a bit to say on the subject.


You seem to be opposed to the OVers understandings of "just" and "holy" merely on the grounds it is different from the standard Evangelical ones. I am somewhat pleased to note that it is, since one of my criticisms of Evangelicalism would be that these terms are largely understood wrongly and need to be understood in the context of God's love - which the OVers seem to be doing. So I wonder is your objection to their understandings simply "this is different to the way I understand it" or does it rest on something more solid?

Actually, my problem is that they did not deal with these characteristics of God at all. They totally avoided those issues, so that instead of having a problem with their definitions, I have a problem that they somehow do not even consider them within their framework.


You imply that it is necessary to hold to inerrancy to be "Evangelical". Other people I have talked to prefer to define "Evangelical" as a Christian from any denomination who is "on fire" for God and the gospel, and thus oppose "Evangelicals" against the nominals and "sunday-Christians". NT Wright, for example, calls himself an Evangelical while not being an inerrantist. Thoughts?

My definition of Evangelical is based upon how church historians define it for the US. In England, Evangelical means conservative, in Germany it just means protestant, but in the US it implies something completely different. Thus, the cultural setting determines how one defines the word.


It seems to me that many of the most influencial Protestant theologians are starting to borrow extensively from Eastern Orthodoxy. While I certainly hope that Evangelical Protestantism turns Orthodox in doctrine, I have to wonder if the lay-people realise this is occuring. Sanders is a bit of a giveaway though - "Western theology has had a difficult time placing ‘God is love’ (I Jn 4:8) at center stage when discussing the divine attributes." Is Evangelicalism going to turn Orthodox within the next 40 years?

No, and in many ways, more is the pity. I think EO could really help reshape the Evangelical world in a strongly corrective way. I hope and pray some of EO rubs off on us, but do not expect it to happen.


I'm not sure I can agree with your assessment that Boyd misuses Romans 8:28, while you are doubtless far better at Greek than me and can study the passage yourself, from what I've read the verse is more than somewhat ambiguous and can be rendered fine the way Boyd is suggesting.

The problem is that Boyd, when he quotes it, mentions how it is a wonderful promise from God, but then retracts the statement implicitly by saying that God is unable to make such a promise. Boyd never argues for a specific interpretation, but the way he phrases his comments specifically on the verse disallows his other comment. I do know all of the issues surrounding Rom 8:28, but I think Boyd cuts his own legs out from under himself.

Spiderman&Co.
March 8th 2004, 05:39 PM
A couple of questions/observations regarding Sanders. (I suppose these would apply to the Open View in general.)

1. Anthropomorphisms and "The eyes of the Lord"

Jaltus made the point about Sanders saying that, in effect, every form of revelation is an anthropomorphism. While this is a true, it seems to change the definition of the word "anthropomorphism", as it is commonly used and it ignores the real issue. For example, one of the biggest questions posed to Sanders and the OV crowd is why we don't take literally the charge that God has eyes, but we do take literally that God changes his mind.

The point is that there are some things that we accept as anthropomorphisms (i.e. "the eyes of the Lord") and some things we accept as literal. By saying that all language is anthropomorphic, Sanders has not, in any way, addressed the issue of why we take some Scripture as literal and some as not literal.

2. Relational aspect of hermaneutics

Sanders makes an interesting observation when he says that, in effect, that we would know nothing about God if not for his relationship with us. (Sanders makes this point early in "The God who Risks".) From that observation, he then seems to jump to the conclusion that a correct approach to interpreting revelation is to view it all on the basis of God's relationship with his creation.

I think the observation that we know nothing about God apart from his relationship to us is highly suspect in many circles. First, this seems to rule out any of the classical approaches to apologetics that speak of an understanding of God apart from Biblical revelation or His relationship with us. Also, that seems to undercut the point of Romans 1 which speaks of God making himself clear to us through the creation.

Further, even if his observation (that we know nothing about God apart from a relationship) is true, does it follow that our hermaneutical approach should be built around the narrative texts? Does it logically follow that our hermaneutical approach should be affected at all???

Jaltus
March 8th 2004, 05:56 PM
Good post, but I would like to say one thing in critique of your post above:

I do not think Sanders is saying that his relational approach causes him to give the pride of place to narrative, I think his giving pride of place to narrative is what makes him take the relational approach.

yxboom
March 8th 2004, 05:58 PM
A couple of questions/observations regarding Sanders. (I suppose these would apply to the Open View in general.)

1. Anthropomorphisms and "The eyes of the Lord"

Jaltus made the point about Sanders saying that, in effect, every form of revelation is an anthropomorphism. While this is a true, it seems to change the definition of the word "anthropomorphism", as it is commonly used and it ignores the real issue. For example, one of the biggest questions posed to Sanders and the OV crowd is why we don't take literally the charge that God has eyes, but we do take literally that God changes his mind.

The point is that there are some things that we accept as anthropomorphisms (i.e. "the eyes of the Lord") and some things we accept as literal. By saying that all language is anthropomorphic, Sanders has not, in any way, addressed the issue of why we take some Scripture as literal and some as not literal. You apparently miss the point Sanders' makes. It is that there is truth value to all "anthropomorphisms". All language is used "anthropomorphically" in that the words themselves decribe and tell us of something that we are able to relate to. So when the phrase "eyes of the Lord" is used, it has truth value. What is it conveying? What is the analogy attempting to portray? When such phrases as God delivered Israel "on eagle's wings", what was the anthropomorphism portraying.

So when applied to God changing His mind. Applied anthropomorphically, what is God, and the author portraying? Taken figurative or literal what truth value does God's changing His mind have if not simply God changed His mind?

Spiderman&Co.
March 9th 2004, 10:24 AM
You apparently miss the point Sanders' makes. It is that there is truth value to all "anthropomorphisms". All language is used "anthropomorphically" in that the words themselves decribe and tell us of something that we are able to relate to. So when the phrase "eyes of the Lord" is used, it has truth value. What is it conveying? What is the analogy attempting to portray? When such phrases as God delivered Israel "on eagle's wings", what was the anthropomorphism portraying.
OK. I'll buy it. I do want to make sure that I am fully understanding Sanders.



Applied anthropomorphically, what is God, and the author portraying? Taken figurative or literal what truth value does God's changing His mind have if not simply God changed His mind?
The truth value could simply be that we need to petition God because he has chosen to work his predetermined plan according to the petitions of his people.

Thus it appears that God takes on the human/finite characteristic of indecisiveness in order to convey the truth value that we should always pray and never cease.

Spiderman&Co.
March 9th 2004, 10:25 AM
Good post, but I would like to say one thing in critique of your post above:

I do not think Sanders is saying that his relational approach causes him to give the pride of place to narrative, I think his giving pride of place to narrative is what makes him take the relational approach.
Sorry to ask, but how are you using "pride of place" in this context???

Jaltus
March 9th 2004, 09:56 PM
"Pride of place" = most important idea, the idea that governs the other ideas

Spiderman&Co.
March 10th 2004, 02:30 PM
Good post, but I would like to say one thing in critique of your post above:

I do not think Sanders is saying that his relational approach causes him to give the pride of place to narrative, I think his giving pride of place to narrative is what makes him take the relational approach.
I wonder about that....In his "The God Who Risks", Sanders spends the majority of his time in the introductory chapters talking about "key models" (a concept that controls interpretation) and how the relational model is how he grounds interpretation. Then, in the following chapters, Sanders applies the relational model to specific Scriptures. For example, he jumps right into Genesis 1-3 and interprets the whole narrative as based upon a relationship "key model." Eve and Adam are not so much faced with an obedience issue as much as an issue of whether God has their "best interests" at heart.

I'm not so much dissagreeing with you as much as questioning whether Sanders has been interpreting the narrative correctly....I find his explinations of providential passages a stretch, to say the least, and wonder if a key model of relationality has been imputed upon certain Old Testament texts.

Jedidiah
March 12th 2004, 04:52 AM
Jaltus,

I cannot enter this discussion with any expertise in systematic theology. My theology is mostly my own and I make no pretense otherwise. I do have a question for you even so.

I do not fully understand all you said about Control Texts. How is it again that you suggest such Control Texts be selected? You very clearly point out that your results will differ radically depending upon which texts are selected as controlling.

Without waiting for your answer I will suggest that, for example, every “God is…,” statement must be givens equal control. Similarly every individual passage must have equal control value. Using the examples you cited (John 10 and Hebrews 6) I would only build a theology that interprets each of these passages in a manner that allows both to be equally true. If the only distinction (and I realize this is not the case) between Calvinist and Arminian is the handling of these two passages, one group giving control to one and the other contrariwise gives control to the other, I see a clear problem. Since the scripture is inerrant, both must be equally true. One or both of the interpretations given to these passages must be in error. Can you clear up this matter for me a bit?

I regret having missed this thread for so long.

beeman

Spiderman&Co.
March 12th 2004, 09:58 AM
I cannot enter this discussion with any expertise in systematic theology. My theology is mostly my own and I make no pretense otherwise. I do have a question for you even so.

After reading your post, I think that you may be entering the discussion with more expertise than you give yourself credit for.

Jedidiah
March 12th 2004, 05:01 PM
Spide,


After reading your post, I think that you may be entering the discussion with more expertise than you give yourself credit for.

What expertise I may "appear" to have is not to the point. I have not done the reading or study, and thus lack the historical background. All my theology is derived by trying to make all of scripture, especially the areas that seem to divide, agree in interpretation. I believe that it is necessary to remain open to change as long as we are not in our final perfect state.

Is that more clear or more confusing?

beeman

Jaltus
March 14th 2004, 03:52 PM
Jaltus,

I cannot enter this discussion with any expertise in systematic theology. My theology is mostly my own and I make no pretense otherwise. I do have a question for you even so.

I do not fully understand all you said about Control Texts. How is it again that you suggest such Control Texts be selected? You very clearly point out that your results will differ radically depending upon which texts are selected as controlling.

My suggestion, which is not developed fully in this paper at all since the assignment was to critique rather than to create, would rather be that doctrinal/didactic texts should be given the more prominent place in the formulation of theology since narrative is often nonjudging about what happens whereas doctrinal/didactic are intentionally judgmental. Narratives tell you what happened, but doctrinal tell you what to believe and didactic why you should believe it. Narrative would say Jesus rose from the dead and some people believed it. Doctrinal would explain what Jesus' resurrection means and didactic would tell us what it can do for us. Thus, the last two tell us how to interpret the former.

Interpretation is the key issue here. How does one understand the Bible? My suggestion is to allow the didactic and doctrinal passages to give us a grid to read the narratives through while still allowing those same narratives to shape our worldview. If one is to read the narratives and then the doctrinal/didactic passages, the two types could seem to go against each other because one has already begun interpreting the narrative portions even though the text itself has not (necessarily) put value markers upon what is being recounted.


Without waiting for your answer I will suggest that, for example, every “God is…,” statement must be givens equal control. Similarly every individual passage must have equal control value. Using the examples you cited (John 10 and Hebrews 6) I would only build a theology that interprets each of these passages in a manner that allows both to be equally true. If the only distinction (and I realize this is not the case) between Calvinist and Arminian is the handling of these two passages, one group giving control to one and the other contrariwise gives control to the other, I see a clear problem. Since the scripture is inerrant, both must be equally true. One or both of the interpretations given to these passages must be in error. Can you clear up this matter for me a bit?

I agree that every "God is..." statement should be understood equally, which was one of my criticisms of the OV thinkers list in the OP. As for every individual passage carrying equal weight, that is true but unrealistic. Let me explain why. Some passages in scripture are much more difficult to understand. The only way to really be clear about what is being said is to understand all of scripture and the context of the specific passage. Let me give an example from a passage I was teaching in Sunday School today:

1 John 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

This verse then means that all Christians should be martyrs. If we add this to other verses talking about how Jesus laid down His life and we should do the same, the case quickly becomes overwhelming. But this misses, first, the context of the passage:

1 John 3:17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?

By looking at this (which is the verse next verse) it is clear that John is not talking about all Christians needing to die, rather he is talking about all Christians needing to value others above themselves to the point where they would sacrifice anything in their life for their brother. This can be seen through the context of the passage (context being surrounding verses, yes, but also the book as a whole - the canonical context).

The problem with this is how does one begin to understand the context in the first place? That is the question I am trying to raise and answer by talking about control texts. Control texts are those which influence your understanding of other texts. They "control" how you read scripture. Instead of letting this be an uncoscious process, it needs to be something done consciously. I'll talk a thoughtful Christian over a Christian of blind faith any day.


I regret having missed this thread for so long.

beeman

I regret you having missed it for so long as well. Your questions are very insightful.

- Jaltus

Jedidiah
March 15th 2004, 03:42 AM
My suggestion, which is not developed fully in this paper at all since the assignment was to critique rather than to create, would rather be that doctrinal/didactic texts should be given the more prominent place in the formulation of theology since narrative is often nonjudging about what happens whereas doctrinal/didactic are intentionally judgmental. Narratives tell you what happened, but doctrinal tell you what to believe and didactic why you should believe it. Narrative would say Jesus rose from the dead and some people believed it. Doctrinal would explain what Jesus' resurrection means and didactic would tell us what it can do for us. Thus, the last two tell us how to interpret the former.

Actually I did read what you wrote about the difference in genre. I will have to admit to letting that slip by to some degree. I got sidetracked on a slightly different issue. I have to agree, after all, that expository passages would take the lead over narratives in pretty much all cases. In terms of interpretation there is no question.

It was that key issue of interpretation that I let slide. I would think that the difference in emphasis between the two sorts of passages would be a matter of practical interpretation rather than linguistic content.

However, rather than saying it is unrealistic to give equal weight to all passages, I would prefer to say it is less practical to depend equally all passages. Interpretation of narratives does depend heavily on guidance from expository passages.

In the area of context which you touched on in your response, I can only agree.

I appreciate your efforts.

beeman

geoff
March 15th 2004, 04:26 PM
Well written Jaltus.

I've done a fair bit of study on Hermeneutics, but I hadnt quite put together some of those points you made about those guys.

Jaltus
March 17th 2004, 04:48 PM
I have a professor (Kevin Vanhoozer) who is working on making genre the heart of hermeneutics in order to create a true Evangelical hermeneutic that allows for literalism, literary readings, and humility when dealing with the approriate texts. He is a prof of ST, but he is quite close to having the heart of a BTer.

geoff
March 17th 2004, 04:51 PM
Jaltus,

I am unsure of the terms "SFer" and "BTer" (maybe old age is setting in, or I am too tired.. heh)

yxboom
May 15th 2004, 03:09 PM
I would guess Systematic Theologian and Biblical Theologian

John D. Brey
July 4th 2004, 12:33 AM
Hi Jaltus,

Interesting essay. ---- It's nice to see persons questioning hermeneutics; but I fear you have yet to appreciate just how deep the rabbit hole really goes? --- Control texts lead to an infinite regression. What justifies the control text? ---- In truth, there's a sacramental protocol for hermeneutics that is closer to Derrida than most Christians would be comfortable acknowledging.


John Brey

Spiderman&Co.
July 6th 2004, 09:54 AM
Control texts lead to an infinite regression. What justifies the control text?I disagree. Such an outlook would logically lead a person to theological and Biblical skepticism. Further, saying that the question of control texts leads to an infinite regress has little in the way of warrant.

As in any literary interpretation, we allow the text to determine its own control texts. It is not a random or haphazzard process, but one in which the text itself reveals points of emphasis and issues of priority. It is a long process, to be sure, but there is no need for skepticism as God has given us a collections of writings that are clear and intelligible.

John D. Brey
July 8th 2004, 10:52 PM
Hi Spidy,


>>I disagree. Such an outlook would logically lead a person to theological and Biblical skepticism.<<

--- But that's not how we decide if something is true or false. I.e, we don't make the truth of a statement dependent on what we think the ramification would be if it were true. If something is true, then we just have to live with the consequences.

>>Further, saying that the question of control texts leads to an infinite regress has little in the way of warrant. <<

If control text are used to control the text, then what will control the control text?

>>As in any literary interpretation, we allow the text to determine its own control texts.<<

How??

>>It is not a random or haphazzard process, but one in which the text itself reveals points of emphasis and issues of priority. It is a long process, to be sure, but there is no need for skepticism as God has given us a collections of writings that are clear and intelligible.<<

I believe in the inerrancy of God's Word. I believe God's word is alive and powerful and sharper than a two-edged sword.

But my love for God's word has spilled over to a love for truth in itself. Following truth down dark alleys where there are prostitutes and pimps and other asundry lowly types has seemed to separate me from those whose truth seems to hang out only in the nicer neighborhoods where they abide!



John Brey

Ormly
July 12th 2004, 11:01 AM
Hello ALL,


There is much in this thread that if it can viewed properly and be allowed to bring rectification/adjustment from a sincere desire to know God, it will have accomplished much.

Hebrews 12:1 (NASB)
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

In this case the sin may be our own agenda that hinders the more perfect understanding that is not hidden but only obscured by our unwillingness to be adjusted due to inbred traditional dogmatic persuasion; our allegiance to it rather than objective truth from scripture.

As a test of our abilities and in the light of your arguments for and against can we examine the control text 'God is Love' as it compares to 1 Corin.13 to now see a significance heretofore gone unnoticed by most. ---then make the extention to conclude it is the kingdom of God Paul alludes to.

In Him,

Orm

Spiderman&Co.
July 13th 2004, 05:10 PM
If control text are used to control the text, then what will control the control text?


As in any literary interpretation, we allow the text to determine its own control texts.How??It is important not to overcomplicate the issue of control texts. Interpreting Scripture is, in many ways, identical to interpreting any other piece of literature. We are simply trying to understand the meaning of the author. This means first determining points of emphasis. When you post on T-Web, you have in mind certain points you wish to convey and certain issues that you wish to emphasis. You do this by wording your sentances and writing a certain length of content to reflect your intentions. The same is true of Scripture.

Further, we use logic itself to interpret which portions of Scripture are of greater theological importance (i.e. "control texts"). Some theological issues, by their very nature, will be more important than others by virtue of the issue itself. For example, if the Scirpture teaches that God is providentially in control of all things, then we would understand, logically speaking, that these texts would "control" other anthropomorphic texts in which it appears that God may not have providential control.

To say that control texts lead us to an infinite regress would then render interpretation of any literature (including my current post) meaningless. But surely we (or most of us, anyway) do not approach literature in this way.

Ormly
July 13th 2004, 08:19 PM
Matthew 16:17 (NASB)
And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


Spiderman, Assuming the understanding of the scriptures is the main reason for reading them, can you fit the above verse readily into the scheme for doing so?

Orm

Spiderman&Co.
July 14th 2004, 09:11 AM
Matthew 16:17 (NASB)
And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


Spiderman, Assuming the understanding of the scriptures is the main reason for reading them, can you fit the above verse readily into the scheme for doing so?

Orm
Yes. I believe so.

Ormly
July 14th 2004, 09:33 AM
Good. Care to eloborate as to it how you believe it does?
Orm

BTW I see you only have 192 pearls and have been here longer than me. What did you do wrong? I mean 8 pearls are 8 pearls. Ya know what I mean?:teeth:

Spiderman&Co.
July 20th 2004, 04:08 PM
Good. Care to eloborate as to it how you believe it does?
Orm

I really don't see the problem in this verse or its relation to my point. Could you explain to me the issue you have detected?

Ormly
July 21st 2004, 04:56 AM
I really don't see the problem in this verse or its relation to my point. Could you explain to me the issue you have detected?In a nutshell, Peter lived the way to take in knowledge of the Lord. The way He was is what Jesus was referring to as to how He would build His Church. So much is the reason the church is weak is because it has failed to understand the issue of "upon this rock". The Rock is God Himself in Jesus, the man.The manna/bread of life in John 6; the abiding in Christ, all this Peter went after in and with his disposition and the enemy was continuously on his heels. Keep in mind Jesus was the "living word"; the testimony of the heart of the Father made flesh. He is what we are purposed to become with our time spent on earth. So I have no argument, to the contrary, I enjoy the study of the scriptures for they lead me as Jesus lead His small group of followers. He was their souce from they learned. Some saw and did it properly as Peter did while most others ended up crucifying Him. While John 20.22 in the indwelling life of Christ that we receive His nature, Pentecost is given to those with Peter's hunger to be united with Christ in Character and sonship.. Pentecost is the power to function as Christ. Pentecost is our helper to become.

Hope this helps,

Orm

Spiderman&Co.
July 21st 2004, 01:40 PM
Orm,

I agree with your points. I just wasn't sure if you were disagreeing with me - that's where I became a bit confused....But an interesting point to be made about Peter is that even while being with Christ for some three years Peter still denied he knew Jesus....

Ormly
July 21st 2004, 07:59 PM
Orm,

I agree with your points. I just wasn't sure if you were disagreeing with me - that's where I became a bit confused....But an interesting point to be made about Peter is that even while being with Christ for some three years Peter still denied he knew Jesus....Haven't we done the same many times while continuing to exclaim "we are born again Christians". There's something wrong with that picture. How do we change it? --- Please don't tell me more Bible study and church involvement. --- and times running out for us "born again Christians" to find out.

Orm

Spiderman&Co.
July 21st 2004, 10:26 PM
Haven't we done the same many times while continuing to exclaim "we are born again Christians". There's something wrong with that picture. How do we change it? --- Please don't tell me more Bible study and church involvement. --- and times running out for us "born again Christians" to find out.

Orm
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Interestingly enough, this idea of living by the Spirit is impossible, I think, if a person is not "born again." That is, if a person does not undergo a fundamental change. Bible study and church involvement has little real meaning unless it is done by someone who is living by the Spirit and spiritually reborn.

Ormly
July 22nd 2004, 06:30 AM
Or attempting such. So now the question should be How do we live in the Spirit to which I would reply: How hungry are you [we] that you find out? ----Or will indifference rule the day?

I wrote this elseware:
This will sound a bit strange to you, given the indoctrination of "humanistic Christainity" we've been made to endure, but the salvation of all mankind was incidental to the main reason Jesus came to give Himself. In other words the salvation of man was necessary in order to put back on track God's purpose for having created him in the first place. The quick response I expect: "Well it was to glorify Him" is too quick an answer.

In light of John15-17; 1 John; the beattitudes and the great comandment, to name but a few scriptures, Deeply ponder those few and all of scripture will be looked at differently. There is challenge to us who are born again based on the faith OF Christ that is supposed to be residing in His nature within us that we progressively become what He was in His flesh ----- this side of Glory.

Orm:smile: