Not Welcomed To Church For Being An Orthodox Preterist!

[mrsnacks]

It finally happened. My wife and I are not welcomed to a church we had been attending for over 2 years.
We had shared our eschatology as Dee Dee knows with our pastor at a lunch and at his home . He seemed opened and really threw plenty of questions at my wife and I . We answered in a spirit of love and discovery. We were excited . For many years (30) I had been a futurist. After becoming a christian I had attended classes and Lindsey was the teacher at Campus Crusade. I got hooked on prophecy. I got a hold of every book and tape I could get my hands on. Attended prophecy seminars and etc. Watched Impe and Hal on TV.
Anyway my pastor had consulted others and asked me not to share my eschatological views with others in the church. He had ask me to do an apologetic series at the church , but said under no conditions should I touch on my views on the end times. It was tough sitting in church and constantly hear that Jesus is coming real soon and we've got to be ready for the rapture and etc.

So in a nutshell -- we are not welcome . He has refused to talk to us and not even a phone call in 3 months. He used to call us at least once a week. Others at the church have dissed us also. I guess we're heretics. So we are looking for another church.

The problem I have and maybe someone can help us out is that most churches are dispensational to the core. And all this "rapture and left behind theology " is really disturbing to sit through. Let alone all the preaching and teaching which we disagree and is in error. If we can't share what we believe and have to keep our mouths shut than I 'd rather stay home. My wife is desperate in a way to find a church , but this is what we keep coming up against. A mushy feely type of gospel . What do you do ? I do realize christians use the one verse to say we should not forsake the gathering of the saints. But what if the teaching is mostly false ?

[dizzle]

Hey Mrsnacks, I keep my mouth shut at church for the most part. I almost left, but where would I go? So I respect their position, it is not heretical, and get this kindo f stuff out of online stuff

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Hey Mrsnacks, I keep my mouth shut at church for the most part. I almost left, but where would I go? So I respect their position, it is not heretical, and get this kindo f stuff out of online stuff
That is harsh Mrsnacks.

I do pretty much the same as Dee Dee. There are a few close friends that know and/or suspect that my eschatology is not close to theirs, and one couple that shares my eschatological view. But for the most part I don't mention my eschatology.

I am fortunate that while my church is mostly futurist, there is not a lot of eschatlogical teaching from the pulpit nor in the discipleship classes.

So I do not get a lot of "futurism" with the exception of a few songs.

In fact it broke my heart the other day when I realized that "Awsome God" has a futurist verse.

:bawl:

I will pray for you and your wife as you go through this difficlult time.

:pray:

[dizzle]

Faramir though dwell on the Battle Hym of the Republic - think about it

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;

He's is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;

He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;

His truth is marching on.

[dizzle]

Think about it - that thare song has preterist interpretative principles

[dynomite]

It finally happened. My wife and I are not welcomed to a church we had been attending for over 2 years.
We had shared our eschatology as Dee Dee knows with our pastor at a lunch and at his home . He seemed opened and really threw plenty of questions at my wife and I . We answered in a spirit of love and discovery. We were excited . For many years (30) I had been a futurist. After becoming a christian I had attended classes and Lindsey was the teacher at Campus Crusade. I got hooked on prophecy. I got a hold of every book and tape I could get my hands on. Attended prophecy seminars and etc. Watched Impe and Hal on TV.
Anyway my pastor had consulted others and asked me not to share my eschatological views with others in the church. He had ask me to do an apologetic series at the church , but said under no conditions should I touch on my views on the end times. It was tough sitting in church and constantly hear that Jesus is coming real soon and we've got to be ready for the rapture and etc.

So in a nutshell -- we are not welcome . He has refused to talk to us and not even a phone call in 3 months. He used to call us at least once a week. Others at the church have dissed us also. I guess we're heretics. So we are looking for another church.

The problem I have and maybe someone can help us out is that most churches are dispensational to the core. And all this "rapture and left behind theology " is really disturbing to sit through. Let alone all the preaching and teaching which we disagree and is in error. If we can't share what we believe and have to keep our mouths shut than I 'd rather stay home. My wife is desperate in a way to find a church , but this is what we keep coming up against. A mushy feely type of gospel . What do you do ? I do realize christians use the one verse to say we should not forsake the gathering of the saints. But what if the teaching is mostly false ?

Mr Snacks,

This may sound cliche, but just be patient. Most dispie seminaries have changed their position to a progressive dispensationalism, but you will have to wait a few more years before these men take over the pulpits. They still won't agree with you, but they aren't committed to Old School Dispie thought. Where are you currently located? I don't know your position on other issues, but I would seek out a conservative Reformed church (PCA, OPC, etc.), because there are preterists in these churches, so you will be more welcomed.

Even if you have to drive a little bit of distance I am sure there is a church along these lines in your area.

dynomite

[mrsnacks]

Thanks to you all : We live in Vegas. It is very difficult for me to sit with my mouth shut most of the time. It really wasn't just one issue. Our views on eschatology are not isolated. You live by what you believe.

If you believe that Christ is reigning at the right hand of the Father -- then you are not going to act like the devil is winning and hide and live a defeated life of fear. You are not going to hope and pray that the rapture comes and rescues you so you can escape this terrible place . You don't look at the jews as a people ( present Israel) that can do no wrong and have God's favor while they reject His Son . Those who reject the Son rejects the Father. I could go on and on .
I know since we came to the orthodox preterist camp- our lifestyle has changed. We look at God in a different way . We know that there is work to be done here and rescue and escape is not on our minds. We run to God's truth and Word - not to the next prophecy seminar to see if the capture of Sadam is a fulfillment of prophecy. We learn hermeneutics and exegete Scripture correctly and seek the truth from God and not by men.

It just amazes me that you have to be silent or that you have chosen to be silent. The question is that what God truly wants you to do ?

A close friend of mine has broken ties with me because of this. I shared because he asked me. We use to talk prophecy a lot . I told him I was in the preterist camp. We talked for hours. He consulted others and came to the conclusion -- I am nuts and into heresy.

I am okay with that really. If it's for my stand with what is true. God's favor is more important than man's favor.

I hope we can find a church that is open . I can't put on a false face though .

[Daywalker]

Anyway my pastor had consulted others and asked me not to share my eschatological views with others in the church. He had ask me to do an apologetic series at the church , but said under no conditions should I touch on my views on the end times. It was tough sitting in church and constantly hear that Jesus is coming real soon and we've got to be ready for the rapture and etc.

So in a nutshell -- we are not welcome . He has refused to talk to us and not even a phone call in 3 months. He used to call us at least once a week. Others at the church have dissed us also. I guess we're heretics. So we are looking for another church.

The problem I have and maybe someone can help us out is that most churches are dispensational to the core. And all this "rapture and left behind theology " is really disturbing to sit through. Let alone all the preaching and teaching which we disagree and is in error. If we can't share what we believe and have to keep our mouths shut than I 'd rather stay home. My wife is desperate in a way to find a church , but this is what we keep coming up against. A mushy feely type of gospel . What do you do ? I do realize christians use the one verse to say we should not forsake the gathering of the saints. But what if the teaching is mostly false ?
I do not know the whole story to this, but I feel that I know enough.
You mentioned that most churches are dispensational to the core, well...they have SHUNNED ME because I am way more dispensational then most of them are.

When I was less dispensational than what I am now, I was going to an Indep. Baptist Church. I could not share my beliefs without getting into the thick of things. If I spoke up, it was certain division. Know what I did? I just kept speaking up. I do not favor Christian hiding what they believe no matter what the issue may be. God is not into politics.

Jeremiah 20:9 Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.

Now, you can tell that I am not a Preterist, BUT the bottom line that I faced was this...What kind of man would I be if God handed me the truth and I tucked my tail between my legs just to please some "pimp of a pope" who is making his money by lying to the people of God? I mean, If PAUL was willing to lay down his life and suffer to produce the words of my God, who was I to hide something that wasn't mine to hide to begin with?

I have been asked before to not tell people what I believe and stuff at Christian single's events and what not. My answer is : I will hide what I know just as soon as you can show me one man in the word of God that did the same. I don't see God's men making bargains with the word of God.

...and MrSnacks, I don't. I could get real mean, nasty, and ugly about this too. Not towards you, but towards the pastors that do that kinda stuff. Man, I would not ask a Christian to HIDE what they believe even if it WAS rank blasphemy. By bottling up what we PERCEIVE to be truth, all it does it destroy us on the insides, when the reason why we want to speak up is for the Lord.
God will use a man that is a little OFF on his theology before he will use a man that will back down out of the fear of man. That is a fact. Furthermore:

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Even if you looked at JUST the practical implications of this verse, how could you be obedient to THAT verse if you are not EXHORTING while you are assembling?

My advice: Worry about God first. The brethren can just "get over it". If that means leaving, leave. If you can stay, stay. Do what God gives you the peace to do in accordance with your conscience.

What I ended up doing is to break off from my roots and the churches that "grew me" to do my own work for the Lord. I felt/Feel more free now to serve the Lord than I ever have.
Grace,
mike
Your pastor won't call you , huh? I will reserve my comments about the man't character...

[mrsnacks]

Hi again : I thank you for your input. it gave me some balance.

I am not one to shut up about this. I am one who is very careful and to speak the truth in love. What I mean by that is I came to the pastor and others to share. I didn't force my beliefs on them nor get upset when they did not present evidence to refute what I believed . I presented my case why I left futurism and came to the preterist camp.We all opened the scriptures. As Dee Dee knows - I was testing and wanted to make sure for many months that I was not being deceived. I listened to debates , talked to both camps. Read books listned to DeMar , Gentry, Bahnsen and others and did a lot of praying and checking with my wife. I did expect the pastor to get back to me and at least look into what I shared but he didn't. He cut us off. My friend cut me off also.

I don't know about this patience thing . Why and what for? You may offend someone with the truth ?? But then again - I thought I was right so many times in my life concerning doctrine. I still may be wrong who knows .I don't think so. Is church the kind of place where if we disagree and have good grounds to support the fact the teaching is in error- we are to shut up ? There are many leaders -Willard, Geisler , Hannegraph, Koukl, the late Walter Martin, Bahnsen ,and many others who have spoken out against the church on many issues.Were they wrong to ? So should they have shut - up and acted nice and tolerant ?

If the church pastor said to his congregation- brothers and sisters - the rapture will take place tomorrow. We will all meet here at 8:00 pm ready to go. So I guess for the sake of peace and that I wouldn't offend anyone by giving them the idea that I don't agree --I go along with this nonsense keeping my mouth shut . I guess that's what Jesus would have me do right ?

Some here say to don't say anything and keep your mouth shut. Is that biblical? If some one here can show me and give me Bible. I haven't heard any yet - just opinions. That doesn't sound like church to me . It reminds me of the EST seminars back in the 80's I had heard about. The leader talked and you kept your mouth shut for 48 hours.

What happened to the verse that stated if a brother is deceived or in error go to him .
Anyway , it's not the first time this has happened.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Hi again : I thank you for your input. it gave me some balance.

I am not one to shut up about this. I am one who is very careful and to speak the truth in love. What I mean by that is I came to the pastor and others to share. I didn't force my beliefs on them nor get upset when they did not present evidence to refute what I believed . I presented my case why I left futurism and came to the preterist camp.We all opened the scriptures. As Dee Dee knows - I was testing and wanted to make sure for many months that I was not being deceived. I listened to debates , talked to both camps. Read books listned to DeMar , Gentry, Bahnsen and others and did a lot of praying and checking with my wife. I did expect the pastor to get back to me and at least look into what I shared but he didn't. He cut us off. My friend cut me off also.

I don't know about this patience thing . Why and what for? You may offend someone with the truth ?? But then again - I thought I was right so many times in my life concerning doctrine. I still may be wrong who knows .I don't think so. Is church the kind of place where if we disagree and have good grounds to support the fact the teaching is in error- we are to shut up ? There are many leaders -Willard, Geisler , Hannegraph, Koukl, the late Walter Martin, Bahnsen ,and many others who have spoken out against the church on many issues.Were they wrong to ? So should they have shut - up and acted nice and tolerant ?

If the church pastor said to his congregation- brothers and sisters - the rapture will take place tomorrow. We will all meet here at 8:00 pm ready to go. So I guess for the sake of peace and that I wouldn't offend anyone by giving them the idea that I don't agree --I go along with this nonsense keeping my mouth shut . I guess that's what Jesus would have me do right ?

Some here say to don't say anything and keep your mouth shut. Is that biblical? If some one here can show me and give me Bible. I haven't heard any yet - just opinions. That doesn't sound like church to me . It reminds me of the EST seminars back in the 80's I had heard about. The leader talked and you kept your mouth shut for 48 hours.

What happened to the verse that stated if a brother is deceived or in error go to him .
Anyway , it's not the first time this has happened. Well, I can only speak for myself. First of all, if you really did come to your pastor et al with love and respect, and they still dissed you, I'd say shame on them for not showing Christian love over a non-salvation issue.

As far as fighting error in the church, I agree we must not remain silent. But I also think we need to pick our battles. IMHO, dispy futurism is scripturally unsupported, and 99.9% of the people in my church couldn't offer up a single counter to any scriptural argument I used against it, yet they would sware it is "gosple" (pun intended).

That to me is a sign of a bigger problem in the church (and not just my churhc). Many (most :soapbox:) Christians today don't know enough theology to light a birthday cake candle. That is why I teach apologetics and am considering developing a herminutics class as well (though I wouldn't call it that cause no one would know what that means :argh:)

However, if it was widely known that I were a preterist, it would lable be as someone with "bizzarre" views and damage my ability to be considered a sound teacher. So I keep my eschatology in the back ground, in order to make other ministry oportunities more effecient. In fact, I think the best way to get people to accept preterism is to teach them to examine the bible critically for themselves. IOHO you can not get the "ignorant masses" to even consider preterism until you first remove a certain degree of ignorance. (And I speak from personal experience about being ignorant and needing that ignorance removed before I accepted preterism myself)

Fortunately for me, my church is not big into eschatology, and it is not often a subject of discussion. Now if my church did start teaching eschatology heavily(or at all, I have never seen anything offered as far as classes and never heard anything from the pulpit either, the only thing I have seen is an advertisement for the Left Behind series on the church web site and that was over 2 years ago. IOW, my silence on eschatology is typical of my church, but if asked about it I will not pretned to be a futurist), then I might have a problem

However, preterism may be your battle. If it is, you would be wrong to keep it in the background.

Hope this helps.

I will continue to pray for you and your wife. :pray:

[GoBahnsen]

It finally happened. My wife and I are not welcomed to a church we had been attending for over 2 years.
We had shared our eschatology as Dee Dee knows with our pastor at a lunch and at his home . He seemed opened and really threw plenty of questions at my wife and I . We answered in a spirit of love and discovery. We were excited . For many years (30) I had been a futurist. After becoming a christian I had attended classes and Lindsey was the teacher at Campus Crusade. I got hooked on prophecy. I got a hold of every book and tape I could get my hands on. Attended prophecy seminars and etc. Watched Impe and Hal on TV.
Anyway my pastor had consulted others and asked me not to share my eschatological views with others in the church. He had ask me to do an apologetic series at the church , but said under no conditions should I touch on my views on the end times. It was tough sitting in church and constantly hear that Jesus is coming real soon and we've got to be ready for the rapture and etc.

So in a nutshell -- we are not welcome . He has refused to talk to us and not even a phone call in 3 months. He used to call us at least once a week. Others at the church have dissed us also. I guess we're heretics. So we are looking for another church.

The problem I have and maybe someone can help us out is that most churches are dispensational to the core. And all this "rapture and left behind theology " is really disturbing to sit through. Let alone all the preaching and teaching which we disagree and is in error. If we can't share what we believe and have to keep our mouths shut than I 'd rather stay home. My wife is desperate in a way to find a church , but this is what we keep coming up against. A mushy feely type of gospel . What do you do ? I do realize christians use the one verse to say we should not forsake the gathering of the saints. But what if the teaching is mostly false ?I'm just coming around to Preterism lately. Like one of the posts here said: People need to be brought out of their general ignorance of sound doctrine before they are better prepared to think the Revelation is historical for the most part. I was spiritually "raised" in the front row of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, getting my futurist view from my smooth Pastor Chuck Smith. I loved that man (still do...though I feel sorry for him now) and for me to walk away from him was real tough. Now all my CC friends basically ignore me and I haven't even let the preterist cat out of the bag yet. But I plan to. Poor folks, they foolishly gave me their emails, now they have to put up with my thought provoking (short) takes I send them. But they are very silent in turn. It has to be strange for them because they all know they can turn to us if they have a need (and do), but again they are very silent. I'm hoping to out last them. Wear them down over time. So they know this isn't a fling or flash in the pan, new fad thing. The servant of the Lord must not strive but be patient. I'll do my best to light their houses on fire and wait patiently for them to come out. Keep up the good fight of faith. Take ground for the Kingdom. Look for an OPC in your area. It's worth the drive.

[Daywalker]

Hi again : I thank you for your input. it gave me some balance.
You are welcome. :thumb:

I did expect the pastor to get back to me and at least look into what I shared but he didn't. He cut us off. My friend cut me off also.
THAT is the kinda stuff that ticks ME off...
I have no problem if even a good friend decides that he does not want to fellowship with me because he thinks that I am a heretic and incompatible with his beliefs-as long as he cared enough about me to try to restore me. Snacks, you might as well get used to it, most Christians do not have the integrity to deal with doctrinal matters. It is easier to be disloyal and walk away then to try to be honest and forthright. I have been abandoned many a time on these matters. I do feel that you should approach your pastor and friends and ask them why they have done this because they also need to be restored due to their unscriptural treatment/abandonment of you.
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

I confronted a few friends of mine and the reply was "oh, I am just soooooooo busy that I can't make time to call you back, etc etc" Whatever.

Is church the kind of place where if we disagree and have good grounds to support the fact the teaching is in error- we are to shut up ?
Therein lies the difference between a ministry and a business...

If the church pastor said to his congregation- brothers and sisters - the rapture will take place tomorrow. We will all meet here at 8:00 pm ready to go. So I guess for the sake of peace and that I wouldn't offend anyone by giving them the idea that I don't agree --I go along with this nonsense keeping my mouth shut . I guess that's what Jesus would have me do right ?
Well, in my OVT, dispensational futurism, the "rapture" is not the next thing on the time clock of prophecy, so I don't fit in with them, but...
If he does make that announcement remember to tell everyone that you would like them to give you all of their possesions FIRST. :grin:

What happened to the verse that stated if a brother is deceived or in error go to him . Anyway , it's not the first time this has happened.
And it won't be the last. But, I knew that if I lived in a shell that this turtle would not go anywhere for God unless he stuck his neck out. :lol:
Grace,
Mike

[Daywalker]

Snacks, I will say a word of prayer for you.

For those reading: Put little faith in the progressive dispensationalists...as a dispensationalist I can tell you that they represent a POLITICAL type of movement within the ranks of dispensationalism. They are willing to sell out their forefathers and suck up to the covenentals. Anybody that can do that is not about truth and integrity, but about politics. There may be some fine men among them, but even in a dumpster you may find a gold ring.

[GoBahnsen]

Snacks, I will say a word of prayer for you.

For those reading: Put little faith in the progressive dispensationalists...as a dispensationalist I can tell you that they represent a POLITICAL type of movement within the ranks of dispensationalism. They are willing to sell out their forefathers and suck up to the covenentals. Anybody that can do that is not about truth and integrity, but about politics. There may be some fine men among them, but even in a dumpster you may find a gold ring.I'm just learning about preterism. Up to now I have continued being a pre trib pre mil guy, but figured it was going to have to go because I keep finding everything else (soteriology) so messed up, that was taught by my dispensational pastor. It sounds like you are an informed dispensationalist, so what would you thoughtfully say to me to keep me from embracing preterism?

[dizzle]

so what would you thoughtfully say to me to keep me from embracing preterism?

When you are interested in hearing why you should embrace preterism come see me.

[GoBahnsen]

When you are interested in hearing why you should embrace preterism come see me. Ok Dee Dee, what in your opinion is the single most devastating preterist argument against pretrib. dispen.? Thanks for taking an interest in a lowly grasshopper.:kiss:

[dizzle]

Ok Dee Dee, what in your opinion is the single most devastating preterist argument against pretrib. dispen.? Thanks for taking an interest in a lowly grasshopper.:kiss:

Okay I will post on another thread just for you in Eschatology an argument I developed in another debate that is my opener for why dispie furutism is wrong. Look for the thread for you....

[GoBahnsen]

Okay I will post on another thread just for you in Eschatology an argument I developed in another debate that is my opener for why dispie furutism is wrong. Look for the thread for you....Thanks mama.