Covenantal Worship and the Continuity/Discontinuity of the O&NT

[quetzalphoenix]

I've scanned the campus and haven't seen a thread discussing worship "style" (as Christians so blithely call it these days). My hangup with the whole huMONgous question is, what is normative in the OT for the NT? Should we take the temple or the synagogue as our model? (OR should we use a N'SYNC concert instead...) Can we see fulfillment of the temple system in Christ in such a direct way that a Covenantal worship service might have parallel, yet "new covenant" (although I am loathe to use this term...read Rev. Robert Rayburn's thesis on it....) rituals.

After all, at least Reformed Christians want to argue that circumcision has given way to baptism, and sacrifice to the Eucharist. Are there more ways that OT revelation about how to approach God should influence us, or are those the two central focii and are we free to organize in whatever manner retains the apostolic instruction, prayer, breaking of bread, and singing mentioned in the book of Acts and Paul's epistles?

Obviously, I am assuming a LOT in the question (like "infant" (I prefer "covenant") baptism, that classic dispensationalism is wrong, that there are two options for our models of worship, that there are even OUGHTS for worship) ...but the question is so huge, I'm looking for a place to start. Any resources, epiphanies, etc.?

Oh, and I would think that this question would have implications for views on paedocommunion, which I am very nearly sold on...

[Hitch]

As pentecoastals we used to snicker at the thought of a 'written' prayer, while we read the Psalms...

Thanx for bringing this up.



Take care

Hitch

[nfactor13131313]

>Obviously, I am assuming a LOT in the question...but the question is so huge, I'm looking for a place to start. Any resources, epiphanies, etc.?>

I don't think that you will find a clear normative in the OT, but rather a diversity of worship 'styles,' as you say, from the highly ritualized, to the ecstatic/charismatic.

As for starting places, though, how about Jesus' comments in John 4? To extend what was said there to your question, can it ever really be about location or manner or ritual or any of the external things by which humans make such judgements?

Another thought: when Satan tempts Jesus to worship him, Jesus' reply links worship with service. I think that might be a valuable place to look as well.. worship is an opportunity for service, first to God, second to our fellow believers, and by extension to the world.

Just a few thoughts. What conclusions if any have you come to?

Nathan

[quetzalphoenix]

Today @ 07:41 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49111#post49111)
nfactor13131313:

I don't think that you will find a clear normative in the OT, but rather a diversity of worship 'styles,' as you say, from the highly ritualized, to the ecstatic/charismatic.



I am guessing you meant NT, because in the OT, the improvisation of a different worship 'style' by Nadab and Abihu resulted in a fiery demise. God's character has remained the same...the question today is what is it about our worship that angers him?

Today @ 07:41 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49111#post49111)
nfactor13131313:

As for starting places, though, how about Jesus' comments in John 4? To extend what was said there to your question, can it ever really be about location or manner or ritual or any of the external things by which humans make such judgements?


I think you might want to reconsider your (implicit) definition of "ritual" Human beings are ritualistic creatures, from the moment we tie our shoes without thinking, brush our teeth in the same way, to singing songs in unision. You'll have to do a lot of exegetical work to make worship "in spirit and truth" in John 4 into "in good intention and good taste" or something likewise subjective. Yes, the location (the temple) is no longer a question because Christ is present by the sacraments and preached word. Oh, and what does it mean when Jesus says the hour is "now here" when people will worship in "spirit and truth"? His disciples (and he) were still observing the rituals of the OT...

Today @ 07:41 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49111#post49111)
nfactor13131313:
Another thought: when Satan tempts Jesus to worship him, Jesus' reply links worship with service. I think that might be a valuable place to look as well.. worship is an opportunity for service, first to God, second to our fellow believers, and by extension to the world.

Just a few thoughts. What conclusions if any have you come to?

Nathan

Very true, worship is an opportunity for service, but is it possible that the service is also to us from God? Here's a place for links to articles on the subject... http://www.prpc-stl.org/about_worship.html

I'm not sure that the focus of Jesus words here first directly with the question of the weekly worship service. Very true, our lives should be worshipful, with service flowing out of that font. I think that the parallelism in the quote is the sort that expands upon the first sentence, and it is not a restatement of the first. So to say that worship = service would be a misreading?

Conclusions? Only preliminary thoughts, based mostly on reading a slice of what's out there--from my postmillenial brothers/sisters, mostly, although I myself am amil. The temple paradigm seems to "work" but I am leery about finding systems too easily in scripture...not because I don't think it is systematic, but I don't know that it is neat.

[nfactor13131313]

>>I don't think that you will find a clear normative in the OT, but rather a diversity of worship 'styles,' as you say, from the highly ritualized, to the ecstatic/charismatic.>>

>I am guessing you meant NT, because in the OT, the improvisation of a different worship 'style' by Nadab and Abihu resulted in a fiery demise.>

I did mean the OT, actually.
And the example you give is from the highly ritualized tradition where innovation and extemperaneous interpretation is not welcome at all.

>God's character has remained the same...the question today is what is it about our worship that angers him?>

I don't think that I had mentioned any change in God's character in my comments, but maybe I was not clear enough.
I'm wondering why your question is particularly focused on what is wrong and not on what is right? Or do both questions have equal importance for you? Is it just as important to ask what it is about our worship that gives God joy?

If you want to find places where worship has angered God, Isaiah 1 is a good start. No condemnation of the way they worshipped... nothing 'technically' wrong with how they were doing it (as far as I can read). And yet God's anger is with how they connected the worship with how they treated one another, how they manifested God's kingdom on earth for the other nations to witness.

>>As for starting places, though, how about Jesus' comments in John 4? To extend what was said there to your question, can it ever really be about location or manner or ritual or any of the external things by which humans make such judgements?>>

>I think you might want to reconsider your (implicit) definition of "ritual" Human beings are ritualistic creatures, from the moment we tie our shoes without thinking, brush our teeth in the same way, to singing songs in unision.>

Certainly, ritual is simply an element of being human. I'm just saying that we shouldn't make this aspect of our humanness a criteria for proper worship, any more than you might want to make emotion a criteria.. i.e., if I don't "feel" the right thing during worship, it can't be genuine.
(and I might add, thinking and saying the right thoughts/formulas would also not be a good criteria)

>You'll have to do a lot of exegetical work to make worship "in spirit and truth" in John 4 into "in good intention and good taste" or something likewise subjective.>

Wasn't doing real serious exegesis.. just in the 'spirit' of your question, a place to start.. an epiphany perhaps. a suggestion, nowhere near an exhaustive thesis or anything like that.
but it's certainly not an isolated text on this theme:
Ps. 51:16-17; Mic. 6:8.

As for it being subjective, I hope by that you mean something more like 'vague' or 'unclear' rather than actually subjective.. given that we are the subjects of worship, I would hope that worship has a subjective element to it.

>Yes, the location (the temple) is no longer a question because Christ is present by the sacraments and preached word. Oh, and what does it mean when Jesus says the hour is "now here" when people will worship in "spirit and truth"? His disciples (and he) were still observing the rituals of the OT...>

Jesus' sense of time is definitely not how we are used to speaking about such things. The hour is both coming and here. About to happen and already present.
As for keeping OT rituals, I don't have any problem with the keeping of rituals, and I'm sorry if my comments seemed to come off that way. It's a human thing, it's perfectly normal and natural, and not something that should be stripped away so that we can get at the 'essence' of worship in itself sans any ritual of any kind. That's impossible. Such an attempt would be analagous to the antinomian reaction to law, I think.
Jesus used ritual to teach, and He was never controlled by the ritual to the extent that He could not move beyond it and use it to show something that was not at first perceived by those who were participating in it.

>>Another thought: when Satan tempts Jesus to worship him, Jesus' reply links worship with service. I think that might be a valuable place to look as well.. worship is an opportunity for service, first to God, second to our fellow believers, and by extension to the world.
>>
>>Just a few thoughts. What conclusions if any have you come to?>>

>Very true, worship is an opportunity for service, but is it possible that the service is also to us from God?>

Absolutely, I think that's a great point. For how are we able to truly serve others except that God is working in us and through us?

>Here's a place for links to articles on the subject... >http://www.prpc-stl.org/about_worship.html>

Thanks for the link. I'm having difficulty loading it right now, but that's probably more to do with my computer and connection than the site.. I will try again later. :-)

>I'm not sure that the focus of Jesus words here first directly with the question of the weekly worship service. Very true, our lives should be worshipful, with service flowing out of that font. I think that the parallelism in the quote is the sort that expands upon the first sentence, and it is not a restatement of the first. So to say that worship = service would be a misreading?>

I also think that worship is something that cannot be limited to a once-per-week event.
As far as equating worship and service, I see Jesus' comment as being more along the Hebraic pattern of poetic repetition.. that is, stating one thing and then saying something synonymous. You see this in the OT more obviously, but doesn't seem that great a stretch to me.
Unless you want to draw a great distinction between ministry and service.. .or between ministry and worship.. perhaps you're making a finer distinction than I am, and that's fine.

>The temple paradigm seems to "work" but I am leery about finding systems too easily in scripture...not because I don't think it is systematic, but I don't know that it is neat.>

I agree that it's not neat.. definitely as messy as anything human gets.

Thanks for the thoughts and comments.

Nathan

[Woman]

Paul and Christ are pretty clear on the subject. I think Charasmatics would be spanked. (Paul allowed for speaking in tongues if necessary, but only in a very orderly and dignified way and preferably only if it could be interpreted.) Anything that brought attention to one's self was highly frowned on. If Christ hadn't risen I really think TV Evangelism would make him turn over in his grave.


I was taught that your life is your prayer.

[Socrates]

:thumb: Hey, Mona made a good point :yipee:

[Woman]

Soc - LOL


:cheers:


I'm seriously considering holding you responsible for the fact that I'm quoting Biblical authority!

:rant:

[Solly]

Quetzal

Only a hit and run comment at the moment, and more in the way of questions, but I think that in trying to decide upon continuities and discontinuities between the OT and NT, the facts to take into account are:

What, though normative for the Old covenant order of Israel, has been fulfilled and done away in Christ. For instance, sacrifices.

What, though part of the OT covenant stipulations, was never normative, yet is a guide for us, ie singing of psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

What, though normative in the OT in its way, yet was done away with the passing of those things, is still normative for us in a typological way. ie, is the manner of the average Israelite in worship our guide, or is the Levitical order more appropriate: kings and priests unto God and all that. Further on this, and as mentioned already, worship and service are linked together in the OT.

What is signified in the worship of the OT order ie. sacrifices, which, though part of the old normative structure, are not so for us, yet gives guidelines, cf Rom 12.

Finally, what of the OT order is, in the NT, clearly shown as having been done way, and what is preceptive in the NT as regards worship as its replacement.

As a Baptist, I obviously consider more done away, more typical and less symbolic for the NT Church state than my Presbyterian and Reformed brethren. Plymouth Brethren see even less; and some other groups don't even see that some stipulations were made in the NT at all, ie baptism and communion.

Presumbably, you are referring to the structured worship of the gathered church, so I'll be wathcing this thread with interest, and contributing where I can.