A Skeleton in God's Closet

[learning]

Hi, this is a fictional adventure type book, of what would happen if someone tried to put hoax out on the world, of a skeleton of Jesus after being crucified. It is very well put, but the apologetic part of one 'Jon' archaelogical christian, in defense of the church and christianity, is one I'ld like to quote. The one who has put up this 'hoax' is arguing against christianity, and Jon is arguing for.
"Hear me out! I'm saying it's unfair to blame the Church for all the violence on this planet! History would've been much bloodier if there had been no Christiannity. It was Christians who insisted on truce days in the Middle Ages, built hospitals to care for the wounded, intervened in quarrels to keep peace, erected orphanages, shelters for the homeless, and--"
"Yes, yes, yes. . . I know the minor credits, but---"
"That's just it: you've totally ignored the credits, Austin! You've forgotten all about the Church's single-handedly keeping Western culture alive during the Dark Ages, civilizing the barbarian invaders of Rome, recopying manuscripts in monastery libraries so that we'd even have such things as books written before Gutenberg. Here you are, one of the world's great Semiticists, and you gnaw at the cultural hand that fed you!"
"Now, see here, Jonathan-"
"No, it's worse than that, Austin: you're trying to chop that hand off entirely! Have you forgotten that Christianity is the alma mater of Western civilization, the 'nourishing mother' that built the schools and invented the university? That its record, after all, is far more positive than you seem to recall? Christianity lay behind many of the greatest accomplishments in the last two thousand years, ranging from basilicas and cathedrals in architecture, to Leonardo and Michelangelo in art, to Johann Sebastian Bach in music. The Church fostered some of the greatest minds ever to enlighten our world -- Augustine, Aquinas, Dante, Luther, Shakespeare, Milton, Newton --"
....
"The existence of evil doesn't disprove God's existence, Austin. On the contrary, Christianity offers a solution, a remedy for evil."
from pages 312,313, of "A Skeleton in God's Closet" by Paul L. Maier

[salvationfound]

I've read the book. Thanks alot for quoting that its my favorite part of it.
People often forget that Christianity despite dark spots has done some of
the greatest work in history. But of course critics often try to hide those
parts of it cause heaven forbid we make Christianity a good thing.

[Minnesota]

But of course critics often try to hide those
parts of it cause heaven forbid we make Christianity a good thing.


If, in fact critics (I assume you mean those with at least a modicum of education in theology) are often guilty of doing these things, it shouldn't be hard to cite a few examples. Three will suffice.

[salvationfound]

If, in fact critics (I assume you mean those with at least a modicum of education in theology) are often guilty of doing these things, it shouldn't be hard to cite a few examples. Three will suffice.

Your absolutely right I made the statement so I should do what you ask.
Herrrreeee we go.

(I hope I do this linking websites thing right.)

1.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj7.shtml

Kyle Gerkin goes on a rant about the atrocities of Christian history. Then he
shrugs off any information about the good things Christians have done. He
even goes as far as to say that their good deeds have nothing to do with
their Christian beliefs.

That's one

2.
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_gunn/church_history.html

John Gunn speaks on the church history and speaks of how the church
throughout all of history has oppressed the people. Once again they make it
seem as though the church has done absolutely nothing good in history.

That's two

3.
And last but not least a book

"The Dark Side of Christian History"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/ref=ase_internetinfidelsA/102-5044222-5610541

Does anybody honestly believe this book will deal strongly on the good
things Christianity has done in the past?

Hey what do you know that's three.

So I met your challenge and found three examples and guess what it only
took me 5 minutes to find them.

So what do I win?

[Minnesota]

Well, I can see why you might believe you met my "challenge," but I see it as a failure. Recall, you said, "People often forget that Christianity despite dark spots has done some of the greatest work in history." First of all, you fail to explain just what these "greatest work in history" were. Now I agree that the cathedrals the church constructed were pretty darn neat, but they hardly qualify as some of the greatest work in human history (especially when you consider the suffering of the poor that was created by the monies rerouted into their construction) and aside from these particular accomplishments, I can't think of anything else that does. AND, I saw nothing in any of the three that indicated anyone forgot anything. Not bringing up a subject is not the same as forgetting it. So even if there was something that qualified as a great Christian work, it doesn't matter.

"But of course critics often try to hide those parts of it."
Didn't see any of this "hiding" either. An article on the dangers of swimming does not require that the joys of swimming be mentioned. The author wouldn't be "hiding" the joys of swimming, but simply finds them irrelevant. So too with the two articles in question. And your last example hardly qualifies on any of your grounds. You may feel that every criticism of Christianity must be balanced by praise, but that's just not how the process of argument works. How many Christian works damning other beliefs or points of view also present the good side of these beliefs and views?

So what do you "win"? Well, how about a big 0

[salvationfound]

Thanks very much I can use you as my fourth link. You just proved my
point.

Have you even read the first post?
Hasn't done some of the greatest work in history? Your honestly saying that
Bach is not one of the greatest musicians in all of history? Michaelangelo is
not one of the greatest artists?

The Church is the one who created Harvard (another one of the greatest).

You did exactly what skeptics often do forget the accomplishments or shrug
it off as nothing like Kyle Gerkin. Tell me who has created more
hospitals? (Now you may say what if The Church didn't exist we'd still have
hopspitals but the question is who created most of them in reality
and not saying what if.)

This book that this post started off with is talking about you. So tell me who
created the most hospitals in the world and the most schools? How many
people are better than Bach and Michaelangelo?

I got an idea when I make a movie version of A Skeleton in God's Closet I'll
give you the part of Austin. Your doing a good job playing him now.

Thanks for giving me a fourth link.

[Minnesota]

.







*sigh*





.

[learning]

sigh....:) how I love how patient atheists are with christians or theists!

ah hem, ever read the history of nursing? Ever wonder why nurses are still called 'Sister' in Britain and Australia still? Ever read who started the washing of hands before surgery, because he had read in the Bible about the priests having to wash their hands a lot, so he tried it, and low and behold, all of a sudden, women were not dying after childbirth where the Doctors, interns were told to wash their hands before examining (and after) because of this Doctor.

Ever wonder who started most hospitals and nursing homes in most cities? Now I'm not Roman Catholic, but I've worked in a nursing home that was started by sisters and it is still regarded as the best nursing home in my city, even though the government is taking over more now. They (the nuns) started it as a home for the poor and the aged, and it went on from there. I remember once hearing these sisters discuss how they were 'bumping' a gentleman up on the list into the home, because even though he had been down on the list, he had no place else to go. And I've seen them respect other religions of the residents in the home, from Jewish to Protestant, to nothing.

[Minnesota]

Ever read who started the washing of hands before surgery, because he had read in the Bible about the priests having to wash their hands a lot, so he tried it, and low and behold, all of a sudden, women were not dying after childbirth where the Doctors, interns were told to wash their hands before examining (and after) because of this Doctor.

I think Dr. Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis would disagree.


History of Antiseptics

By Mary Bellis

Ignaz Semmelweis
According to Wikipedia*, "Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis (July 1, 1818 - August 13, 1865) was the Hungarian physician who demonstrated that puerperal fever (also known as "childbed fever") was contagious and that its incidence could be drastically reduced by enforcing appropriate hand-washing behavior by medical care-givers. He made this discovery in 1847 while working in the Maternity Department of the Vienna Lying-in Hospital. His failure to convince his fellow doctors led to a tragic conclusion, however, he was ultimately vindicated.

Semmelweis realized that the number of cases of puerperal fever was much larger at one of his wards than at the other. After testing a few hypotheses, he found that the number of cases was drastically reduced if the doctors washed their hands carefully before dealing with a pregnant woman. Risk was especially high if they had been in contact with corpses before they treated the women. The germ theory of disease had not yet been developed at the time. Thus, Semelweiss concluded that some unknown "cadaveric material" caused childbed fever.

He lectured publicly about his results in 1850, however, the reception by the medical community was cold, if not hostile. His observations went against the current scientific opinion of the time, which blamed diseases on an imbalance of the basical "humours" in the body. It was also argued that even if his findings were correct, washing one's hands each time before treating a pregnant woman, as Semmelweis advised, would be too much work. Nor were doctors eager to admit that they had caused so many deaths. Semmelweis spent 14 years developing his ideas and lobbying for their acceptance, culminating in a book he wrote in 1861. The book received poor reviews, and he responded with polemic. In 1865, he suffered a nervous breakdown and was committed to an insane asylum where he soon died from blood poisoning.

Only after Dr. Semmelweis's death was the germ theory of disease developed, and he is now recognized as a pioneer of antiseptic policy and prevention of nosocomial disease."

SOURCE (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blantisceptics.htm)

I'm interested to know where you got your misinformation.

[ilkhani'tus]

Your absolutely right I made the statement so I should do what you ask.
Herrrreeee we go.

(I hope I do this linking websites thing right.)

1.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj7.shtml

Kyle Gerkin goes on a rant about the atrocities of Christian history. Then he
shrugs off any information about the good things Christians have done. He
even goes as far as to say that their good deeds have nothing to do with
their Christian beliefs.

That's one

2.
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_gunn/church_history.html

John Gunn speaks on the church history and speaks of how the church
throughout all of history has oppressed the people. Once again they make it
seem as though the church has done absolutely nothing good in history.

That's two

3.
And last but not least a book

"The Dark Side of Christian History"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964487349/ref=ase_internetinfidelsA/102-5044222-5610541

Does anybody honestly believe this book will deal strongly on the good
things Christianity has done in the past?

Hey what do you know that's three.

So I met your challenge and found three examples and guess what it only
took me 5 minutes to find them.

So what do I win?I beleive that the point of those links was to show the side of xian history that the preachers, etc. themselves will not...

It'd be like expecting AIG or the Catholic Church to come clean about the bad things that Martin Luther or the Church itself has done respectively.


It ain't gonna happen....Religions are in the business of acquiring new converts, not driving potential converts away with the skeletons in their closet!


Those people are trying to get the "other side" of the story out. Those like Helen Ellerbee who wrote "The Dark Side of Christian History" have made it clear by the title that that's what she's doing.

Why would you even expect her to start praising the xian system? It would go against the title of her book.


Oh, and all that xian and science stuff? You may want to check out this review of "The Biblical Basis of Modern Science" (http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/bibleandscience.htm) by this religious group.

[Vorkosigan]

"Hear me out! I'm saying it's unfair to blame the Church for all the violence on this planet! History would've been much bloodier if there had been no Christiannity. It was Christians who insisted on truce days in the Middle Ages, built hospitals to care for the wounded, intervened in quarrels to keep peace, erected orphanages, shelters for the homeless, and--"

Something they picked up from the Romans and Jews...later, Nazis and Communists did the same thing. I suppose you then argue that Nazism and Communism are OK, because they operated charities....?????

"That's just it: you've totally ignored the credits, Austin! You've forgotten all about the Church's single-handedly keeping Western culture alive during the Dark Ages,

On my planet, the Church was one of the primary causes of the Dark Ages....

[recopying manuscripts in monastery libraries so that we'd even have such things as books written before Gutenberg.

....copying almost entirely Christian ones of course, losing so many, and destroying pagan ones....and of course, the re-entry of classical learning was accomplished by information from the Arabs....

"No, it's worse than that, Austin: you're trying to chop that hand off entirely! Have you forgotten that Christianity is the alma mater of Western civilization, the 'nourishing mother' that built the schools and invented the university?

Incredible... because the oldest universities are all Arab. I believe U of Fez in Morrocco is the world's oldest currently functioning university, but other Arab universities also make that claim.

music. The Church fostered some of the greatest minds ever to enlighten our world -- Augustine, Aquinas, Dante, Luther, Shakespeare, Milton, Newton --"

Bwahaha....Augustine started out as a pagan and cut his teeth on classical culture, Aquinas' books were rejected and banned in a couple of places, at first -- rational argument had an uphill struggle to face (it came of course, from the Arabs). Newton was an alchemist, an Arian and a heretic.Shakespeare's religious beliefs are completely unknown, Milton was an extremely unconventional thinker who probably saw God as Chaos and whose views were close to Newton's (see Rumrich's book), Dante copied the Inferno from similar Arab trips to hell. In other words, the only true Christian-inspired person there was Luther, and he was a raging anti-Semite and authoritarian who believed that handicapped children should be killed. Great list, eh?

Vorkosigan

[learning]

Actually, the dark ages was caused by barbarian tribes attacking and destroying the strength of Rome. You know, like from my heritage, the Vikings, you know, people who only stopped their raids on Great Britain and the world after they became Christians.

[Vorkosigan]

Actually, the dark ages was caused by barbarian tribes attacking and destroying the strength of Rome. You know, like from my heritage, the Vikings, you know, people who only stopped their raids on Great Britain and the world after they became Christians.

On my planet Christianity reached Denmark in 965 and Norway even earlier. Yet the Viking raids continued for long afterwards.

Vorkosigan

[HRG_new]

Incredible... because the oldest universities are all Arab. I believe U of Fez in Morrocco is the world's oldest currently functioning university, but other Arab universities also make that claim.

And IIRC the two oldest [i]European[i] universities were secular: Bologna (for studying Justinian's Corpus Juris) and Salerno (medicine).

[learning]

Christianity reached Norway, but many of the people kept to their gods, and ignored the celtic Christians that came to them. Some kings became Christians, but even then it took awhile for the people to become Christians.

[learning]

And IIRC the two oldest [i]European[i] universities were secular: Bologna (for studying Justinian's Corpus Juris) and Salerno (medicine).

what are the dates for those universities, and anyways, this is getting too picky :)
You know that most Universities were started, in the U.S. and Canada, by the church, in fact, after the 'Great Awakening' a revival in the U.S. and Great Britain, many colleges and universities were started in the U.S., because the people believed in training their future ministers and others for the future. I believe three or four were started then.
In Ireland, before the Roman Catholic church, there were many educational institutes set up by the Celtic church monks.

I do have a date for the Cairo University being set up in 970 A.D., but the Paris University was 1150 A.D. and here are Bologna 1119 A.D., Paris 1150A.D., Oxford 1170 A.D.

In Africa at this time, King Lalibela of Ethiopia builds 11 churches and chapels, cut into rock in the Lasta Mountains, some in the shape of a cross.The Trans Sahara trade continues.
In Asia at this time, Mongols invade China and later attack Delhi, and Genghis Khan dies in 1227 A.D. and then the Mongols overthrow the Chin dynasty in China. In north America, the Mississippians dominate a wide area, and have a culture influenced by Mexico and the Pueblo builders are at their peak. In south America, the Aztecs begin small states, the Mayan capital Chichen Itza is left and a new capital Mayapan which has 5 miles of wall. The Chimu kingdom continues in Peru. (this info - last two, three paragraphs) from the Usborne Timelines of History)

[learning]

A quote from the person who is credited with the founding of modern nursing

"To understand God's thoughts we must study statistics, for these are the measure of his purpose." Florence Nightingale

[learning]

Here's a quote to do with 'The Great Awakening' and it was from this revival, that actually, the separation of church and state came about, because of the idea of tolerance for those with different religious views.
www.tcr.org/advpl_2.html

"Although the Great Awakening only lasted from 1735-1745, it not only increased church membership but also stimulated education and promoted separation of church and state. As itinerants inspired New Lights to study the Bible, converts focused increasingly on education in lieu of games...
The Great Awakening influenced the founding of prestigious universities, including Princeton, Dartmouth, Brown, Rutgers, Washington, and Lee and Hampden-Sydney."

I have also heard that the Univ of Pennsylvania and UNC came about from a revival as well.