The Baptists' Control problem

[themuzicman]

Why is it that Baptist denominations have such a problem with being control freaks?

From condemning CCM as demonic, to forbidding people to see movies, to restating their statement of faith to preclude OVT, to the pulling of children from public schools, to no alcohol, no gambling, no dancing, etc, etc, etc.

What is up with all that? Since when is it the church's place to tell its membership what to do with their lives, especially when they've been so WRONG in the past?

Michael

[Amazing Rando]

Why is it that Baptist denominations have such a problem with being control freaks?

From condemning CCM as demonic, to forbidding people to see movies, to restating their statement of faith to preclude OVT, to the pulling of children from public schools, to no alcohol, no gambling, no dancing, etc, etc, etc.

What is up with all that? Since when is it the church's place to tell its membership what to do with their lives, especially when they've been so WRONG in the past?

Michael

I'd imagine they do it with the same motivation Christians tell each other "No murdering! No stealing! No adultery!"

In other words, they think they're doing the right thing, misguided as they may be.

[elysian]

Legalism is one of the pitfalls I've seen in certain Baptist churches (though not all.) It reminds me of something my Dad always used to say when we were younger: "avoid the mere appearance of evil." Therefore for instance even if you didn't smoke or drink it was a bad reflection on you if your friends did.

Catholics have their own brand of legalism that is strikingly similar though with the exception of "dirty" movies (they pretty much agree with Baptists on "immoral" movies) it's in different areas. Baptists generally condemn drinking, smoking, and gambling which are all OK for Catholics (if you've ever been to Bingo or Monte Carlo night at a Catholic church you know what I mean.) Catholics get legalistic when it comes to liturgical observances (miss a Holy Day of Obligation or eat meat on Friday during Lent, for instance, and it's confession and penance for you!) whereas Baptists don't do liturgical observances and wouldn't have a clue about Holy Days and all that. They just expect you to show up for worship and Sunday School and perhaps Wednesday night study- and not to get caught with Jack Daniel's and Marlboros.

Funny it's the sex and not the violence that the Baptists and the Catholics both condemn in the movies. My mother used to have a hissy fit when there was kissing or sexual innuendo in a movie or on TV but we could watch all the 80's slasher flicks we wanted because "everyone knows Freddy Krueger isn't real." :lol: :lol:

[trueseeker]

Why is it that Baptist denominations have such a problem with being control freaks?

From condemning CCM as demonic, to forbidding people to see movies, to restating their statement of faith to preclude OVT, to the pulling of children from public schools, to no alcohol, no gambling, no dancing, etc, etc, etc.

What is up with all that? Since when is it the church's place to tell its membership what to do with their lives, especially when they've been so WRONG in the past?

Michael

Muz,

The irony of it is that Baptist's think everything is predestinied. So no matter how much they try to control things, they are going to happen the way they were going to happen anyway.

[Bib Lit Major]

Quick correction: Not all Baptist denominations believe in predestination, and many are rather open on the idea with some believing in simple foreknowledge while others are set on predestination (my experience in a Southern Baptist church encountered both). In fact, Free Will Baptists believe salvation can be lost....a very un-predestinarian view.

[anthrogirl]

I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist environment (I still don't know how to dance, never saw any movies or listened to secular music, wasn't allowed to talk to Catholics, etc.). By the time I graduated from high school (fundamental Christian school), I went apedookie! I shudder to think of the seriousness of the things I was involved in, given my naiveté at the time. My sense of self and the world was royally screwed up. I took offense to 98% of the doctrine when I was younger, but no one in the church would "show up"--they simply lumped me into the category of 'infedel', rather than providing support for the ontological/epistomilogical questions I had. For them, "Blind Faith" was considered a virtue (!).

anthrogirl

[Jade]

Why is it that Baptist denominations have such a problem with being control freaks?

From condemning CCM as demonic, to forbidding people to see movies, to restating their statement of faith to preclude OVT, to the pulling of children from public schools, to no alcohol, no gambling, no dancing, etc, etc, etc.

What is up with all that? Since when is it the church's place to tell its membership what to do with their lives, especially when they've been so WRONG in the past?

Michael
Please do not lump all Baptists under the same potluck table. Northern Baptists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Northern Baptists, and probably others, each with their own set of bylaws, customs, legalisms, and apathetical attitudes. In each group, there is the occasional church that's alive and kickin' but for each church that's truly following christ, there are probably a good ten that are barely breathing. You could walk into a Southern Baptist church in Kansas, have 4 hymns, and offering, followed by a sermon and a 10 verse altercall. By contrast, you could attend a southern baptist church in Oklahoma that doesn't have hymnals and makes you think you've stumbled into a charismatic church by accident. Oh and then there are Independent Baptist Churches and it's rare to find any Independents that agree with another Independent.

Yes, I'm jaded. I was raised Southern Baptist; I've been in both live and dead churches; I've also attended my share of Independent and Northern Baptist churches. I've seen one too many church splits over stupid stuff and I've also seen a good number of real revivals. But at the moment, I'm none of the above. I'm not anything save a follower of Jesus.

As for the main part of your topic the main verse, if it is a concious philosophy that is, they are drawing from is:

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord

What's that? You say there's more to that verse. Surely not. Let's not be caught doing anything that might be mistaken for secular or worldly. Oh and that CCM has the same beat, it must be devil music. Okay, I'll hush now.

[Solly]

:lol: Baptist laughter at the strains of Antinomian whingeing :lol:

[trueseeker]

Quick correction: Not all Baptist denominations believe in predestination, and many are rather open on the idea with some believing in simple foreknowledge while others are set on predestination (my experience in a Southern Baptist church encountered both). In fact, Free Will Baptists believe salvation can be lost....a very un-predestinarian view.

Yeah I know, I've been involved with Conservative, American and Southern Baptists. However, I just had the impression from Muz's post that he was talking about Conservative Baptists. In my experience they are the control freaks, where the others weren't. But I suppose in different areas other Baptist may be control freaks as well. I used to tease some of my Conservative Baptist buddies about their need for all the rules, if everyone was predestinied to do what they are going to do anyway. Finally one responded back, we were predestinied to make all the rules, so we can't help ourselves. :lol:

They must have been predestinied to leave the Conservative Baptists too, well over half of their youth group I hung out with a few years have moved on to other denominations.

[Solly]

Of course, the phenomenon you are describing is not something that has to do with being Baptist, but rather "Fundamentalist in America", and comes from the same source as Chrisitan RW politics. Siege mentality.
However, I do frequently note the tone that also comes across the pond, of American/Corinthian autonomy: I can do what I want, all things are lawful for me. Fundamentalists have fundamentally misunderstood the Bible's teaching on the nature of the world and holiness, but I submit that nonFundie conservative Christians more often than not radically misunderstand it too, only the other way, forgetting the injuction, not all things edify, not all things are profitable.
The church is called to be a counter culture, but more often than not one either finds it being merely a sub-culture of the predominant culture, or just apeing another counter-culture movement, usually youth culture with its incipient rebelliousness in dress, manners, music, and entertainments.
Baptist fundamentalism has missed the boat in that sense, since it is often reacting to an understanding of the culture in which it exists that is half a century out of date. nonFundie conservatives seem to go the other way, and embrace all that culture has to offer - leaving aside of course the few taboos that even they can't deal with yet, like full or semi pornography. How is holiness evidenced in the modern American church these days?

[elysian]

nonFundie conservatives seem to go the other way, and embrace all that culture has to offer - leaving aside of course the few taboos that even they can't deal with yet, like full or semi pornography. How is holiness evidenced in the modern American church these days?

There's nothing wrong with being conservative if your conservatism does not become legalism. Conservatism is rightly defined as taking a critical and rational view of the status quo- neither embracing change solely for change's sake, nor resisting needed and necessary beneficial change. It is an issue of informed balance. Traditionalism is not necessarily conservatism. Just because something's old or been made a tradition does not give it intrinsic value- and just because something is new does not mean it's improved!

Anyway, I agree with you on the issue of holiness and Christianity in America. What some mistake for holiness is merely the facade of the whitewashed Pharisee. (Matthew 23:27) I have heard stories of people who take offense at a dirty word or a spot of nudity on TV, who go on to beat their kids or to cheat and steal. I've also seen extreme examples such as Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church in which they condemn certain groups, especially gays (their ridiculous tag line is "God hates fags".) The point that seems to be missed is that we are not capable of making ourselves holy! The best we can do is the whitewashing that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for- all pretty and nice on the outside, but rotten to the core on the inside. The only way we can be made holy is to let Jesus make us holy from the inside out. (Romans 12:1-2.) This truth seems to be lost on so many Christians but it seems Americans have a harder time because we are so merit-driven. We just can't seem to get the point that we have to surrender, to submit, and let Jesus transform us. We simply can't do it ourselves!

[Tobias Reiper]

Muz,

The irony of it is that Baptist's think everything is predestinied. So no matter how much they try to control things, they are going to happen the way they were going to happen anyway.

Speaking as a Baptist, I have never heard any Baptist preacher say anything in support of predestination, other than with regards to end time prophecy.

[yxboom]

Why is it that Baptist denominations have such a problem with being control freaks?

From condemning CCM as demonic, to forbidding people to see movies, to restating their statement of faith to preclude OVT, to the pulling of children from public schools, to no alcohol, no gambling, no dancing, etc, etc, etc.

What is up with all that? Since when is it the church's place to tell its membership what to do with their lives, especially when they've been so WRONG in the past?

Michael
I was saved independant fundamental Baptist denom, and it was the independant fundamental baptist denom that caused me to leave.

[elysian]

I learned a lot about the Bible at Baptist Bible studies. My sister and her family as well as my Dad and my Grandma are all Baptists (Southern and Regular) and I absolutely respect their faith although there are points of Baptist theology that I disagree with. Some Baptists' preoccupation with eschatology baffles me as well. I remember taking a class at my sister's church long ago on Revelation and the End Times and quite frankly it didn't make much sense to me. But there is much good Christian witness that comes from the Baptist traditions- Beth Moore is one strong Christian witness from the Baptist tradition that I can think of off hand.

[Findo]

I think Aussie baptist must be a bit different from US ones.. over here we (as I have grown up and attend a baptiist church) seem to run a whole gammut of leanings, while generally being fairly middle of the road in terms of traditoinal/modern.

There is no 'rules' in baptists here that say you must not drink or smoke (although there is probably a small number of indies who would) except for the generation of my grandparents who didn't drink or dance.

Anway.. we know Jesus wasn't a baptist, otherwise He would have turned the wine into water... :tongue:

[Solly]

Indie Fundie Baptist is a peculiarly US phenomenon, right out of the prohibition era. Most Uk Baptists are like the Aussies, because they were never fundie. It was more the Methodists that were like that, with there Temperance Leagues, etc. Calvinistic Baptists of the kind I am in are not part of the mainline Baptist scene, and have become somewhat ghettoised, ecclesiastically and culturally.

Btw, told you I would find you LSBoy

[Findo]

I have nothing to say to that.

[Daywalker]

Why is it that Baptist denominations have such a problem with being control freaks?

From condemning CCM as demonic, to forbidding people to see movies, to restating their statement of faith to preclude OVT, to the pulling of children from public schools, to no alcohol, no gambling, no dancing, etc, etc, etc.

What is up with all that? Since when is it the church's place to tell its membership what to do with their lives, especially when they've been so WRONG in the past?

Michael
Down in the South, where I live, the Independent Fundamental Baptists openly state that they alone have the truth...well...at least some among the Indep. Bapt. Basically, any group that holds to a type of "church succession" mentality quickly gravitates towards a cultic control from what I have seen, IMHO.

There is a book put out that is read in many baptist Seminaries. It is called "Trail of Blood". This book supposedly gives historic documentation to "prove" (yeah, RIGHT!) that the baptist church can literally be traced to the very martyrs of Jesus himself. Some say that John the Baptist was the first baptist. Methodists, Presbys, etc...do not COUNT.

From that point, they can then surmise that since they are the pillar and ground of truth and called of God to give the word of God and lead the flock, that all things must go through their approval and "fit in" with their scheme of things. Since they tend to be staunch (some would say stubborn), staying conservative can be easy if that is your roots-but that means that society can easily pass you bye. When this happens, you can either adjust to the times OR hold to the historic conservatives and only play "Amazing Grace", "Battle Hymn of the Republic" etc etc etc. CCM was a movement that was popularized OUTSIDE of their camp, you see...THUS, it never had their "okay" to get started, nor can they RELATE TO IT. Thus, since God did not raise this "spiritual movement" through the HISTORIC CHURCH, it is of the devil.

This logic can be applied to things regarding TV, MOVIES, etc etc etc. Having been an Indept. baptist for a decade, I know that these are the ways they think.

[Daywalker]

Again, "since it did not start through us and THEE local church"-chances are, it is of Satan...

[Daywalker]

Why is it that Baptist denominations have such a problem with being control freaks?
Michael
Also, the controll freak syndrome kicks in because it is the by product of their supreme independence. I tend to think of the Choleric temperment in regards to the INDEPT. baptists preachers that I personally have known. It is often a reflection too of their insecurity, "they know that they are not like the other groups"...hence, they potentially become MORE UNLIKE the other groups and can not loose the battle to what did not come through "their trail of blood"-so, protect the "sheep" at all costs.

There is a lot more that I could say, but I just hope that I have not confused the issue. Sorry if I did. LOL :wink:

[Solly]

Can people also remember that the Baptists were persecuted by catholic and protestant alike, in Britain, Europe and America alike. Read the Last Will and Testament of Obadiah Holmes, or the life of Roger Williams of RI, or the life of John Bunyan. Anglicans/Episcopalians, and Presbyterians, and Independents/Congregationals alike all had open season on the re-baptizers, and some of them paid with their lives; that's why some of us don't say that we are Protestants.

[Sinai]

Why is it that Baptist denominations have such a problem with being control freaks?

From condemning CCM as demonic, to forbidding people to see movies, to restating their statement of faith to preclude OVT, to the pulling of children from public schools, to no alcohol, no gambling, no dancing, etc, etc, etc.

What is up with all that? Since when is it the church's place to tell its membership what to do with their lives, especially when they've been so WRONG in the past?

Michael
As Solly pointed out in an earlier post, "the phenomenon you are describing is not something that has to do with being Baptist, but rather 'Fundamentalist in America'." It should also probably be noted that there are too many varieties of Baptist denominations and too many differences within many of those denominations to paint with such a broad brush as the OP with any degree of accuracy.

But then again, if you consider some of the major doctrines that have characterized Baptists over the centuries, it really should not be particularly surprising that there are so many different varieties.

For example, Baptists generally regard the Bible as their sole authority, but insist that every believer has the right and responsibility to read the scriptures and to prayerfully determine the meaning of the passages in harmony with the overall teachings of the Bible. As the great Baptist theologian Dr. Herschel H. Hobbs said, "The moment a Baptist seeks to coerce another person--even another Baptist--in matters of religion, he violates the basic belief of Baptists."

Think about that for a moment. If not even the President of a Baptist denominatin can dictate what his subordinates are to believe about a particular issue or scriptural passage, and if all Baptists are encouraged to study the Bible for themselves, there is a greater liklihood that different believers may disagree on certain points. As long as their areas of agreement significantly outweigh the areas of disagreement and as long as they can respect each other's opinions and right to hold each interpretation, they probably can work together toward reaching a common goal. If the differences become too pronounced or if they focus on those differences rather than cooperating with each other, they are more likely to split or fragment into two or more groups.

Now add the fact that Baptist churches are generally autonomous and are free to associate with similar churches or groups of churches. Is there any wonder there are so many different varieties of Baptists?