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whag
01-22-2014, 06:12 PM
I would find it difficult as a Christian to explain certain concepts, such as the concept of Satan. Is there a minimal set of facts about Satan that can be presented? Was he a friend of God who became God's ultimate enemy, or is that even abusing the minimal information about him?

Jedidiah
01-22-2014, 06:37 PM
Well, there is nothing "ultimate" about him. He is just another creation.

Christianbookworm
01-22-2014, 06:43 PM
He's a fallen angel/archangel. The 'leader ' of the fallen angels.

Soyeong
01-22-2014, 07:06 PM
I can tell you've really been dying to know about Satan for these last few months.

whag
01-22-2014, 07:06 PM
He's a fallen angel/archangel. The 'leader ' of the fallen angels.

this is a foundational truth about who Satan was? I thought even that minimal fact of his origin can be doubted since OT passages are vague and possibly not have the meanings that Christians have read into it.

my question is, if it's widely disputed that Satan is a fallen angel, how else can he be personified within the bounds of orthodoxy? does a christian even need to enforce that belief on himself or can he just say 'I really have no idea what Satan is.' is belief in Satan necessary for spiritual growth in Christianity?

whag
01-22-2014, 07:11 PM
Well, there is nothing "ultimate" about him. He is just another creation.

not ultimate in terms of unlimited power, but ultimate in terms of scale of damage. just another creation, hardly.

JohnnyP
01-22-2014, 07:20 PM
I would find it difficult as a Christian to explain certain concepts, such as the concept of Satan. Is there a minimal set of facts about Satan that can be presented? Was he a friend of God who became God's ultimate enemy, or is that even abusing the minimal information about him?

To start, my view is that creatures of Genesis 2 are cherubim like angels, while regular animals are evolved in Genesis 1. So the Serpent is not really a talking snake, but like an angel who was created to help guide Adam, but instead led him astray. I don't know about a "friend" to God or Adam, but he was intended to be a "help meet." Evidence to the view:


Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle (OX), and to the fowl of the air (EAGLE), and to every beast of the field (LION); but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. (SIMILAR QUALITIES TO...)


Ezekiel 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Genesis 1:3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan as an evil "lucifer" and guiding light and power behind some nations, contrasted to Jesus as a righteous "lucifer" and guiding light. Evidence to the view:


Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? (POWER BEHIND BEAST KINGDOMS)

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (POWER BEHIND BABYLON)

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (POWER BEHIND TYRE)

vs.


Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (POWER BEHIND RIGHTEOUS)

whag
01-22-2014, 07:34 PM
that's a good start. i struggle to ascertain the extent of his office. on one hand, he's a helpmeet. on the other, a very important person with an endowment of jewels. is it reasonable to assume he did something to earn his appointment?

JohnnyP
01-22-2014, 07:44 PM
that's a good start. i struggle to ascertain the extent of his office. on one hand, he's a helpmeet. on the other, a very important person with an endowment of jewels. is it reasonable to assume he did something to earn his appointment?

It doesn't say so, but it may be that his job was to help keep Adam from the Tree of Knowledge, as others were placed to keep him from the Tree of Life, but he failed in his job. That's just a suspicion of mine...

whag
01-22-2014, 07:56 PM
It doesn't say so, but it may be that his job was to help keep Adam from the Tree of Knowledge, as others were placed to keep him from the Tree of Life, but he failed in his job. That's just a suspicion of mine...

yes, it could be anything, and that's why I'm asking these questions. minimally, he was a bejeweled angel with a high office: to guide adam. minimally, can we say he went recruiting his colleagues thereafter and planned their explusion from eden?

Manwë Súlimo
01-22-2014, 09:12 PM
A lot of what people think they know about him is just myth that self-perpetuates itself. There's not a whole lot we can say with certainty, and I'm not even sure we can be certain he's the "leader" in the sense that he's always calling the shots for the forces of darkness. But I'd say:

1) He exists
2) He has participated in acts of temptation and accusation
3) He attempted to throw a wrench in the ministry of Jesus and the formation of the early church
4) As a preterist, I'd say he's no longer active in the world but will be again one day
5) He will be destroyed

JohnnyP
01-22-2014, 09:56 PM
yes, it could be anything, and that's why I'm asking these questions. minimally, he was a bejeweled angel with a high office: to guide adam. minimally, can we say he went recruiting his colleagues thereafter and planned their explusion from eden?

The Bible itself isn't informative about how other angels became demons and allied with Satan, some views from Judaism and Christian Apocrypha:


The queen of demons is Lilith, pictured with wings and long flowing hair, and called the "mother of Ahriman" ( B. B. 73b; 'Er. 100b; Nid. 24b). "When Adam, doing penance for his sin, separated from Eve for 130 years, he, by impure desire, caused the earth to be filled with demons, or shedim, lilin, and evil spirits" (Gen. R. xx.; 'Er. 18b), and according to Pseudo-Sirach ("Alphabetum Siracidis," ed. Steinschneider, p. 23) it was Lilith, as Adam's concubine, who bore them (compare "Chronicles of Jerahmeel," ed. Gaster. xxiii. 1).

The speculation regarding the nature and origin of these demons and their leaders led as early as the second pre-Christian century, in those fragments preserved under the name of the Book of Enoch, to the story of the fall of the angels (Enoch, vii.-viii.; lxix.). Like Beelzebub, or Lucifer (Isa. xiv. 12; compare Slavonic Enoch, xxix. 4), two hundred 'Irin or "watchers" fell, attracted by the beauty of the daughters of men (Gen. vi. 4); only tradition obviously differed as to the leader of the rebellious host, whether it was Azazel or Shamḥazai. At any rate, they acknowledged the supremacy of Satan (liii. 3, liv. 6), though occasionally many satans are mentioned (xl. 7 et al.), and these fallen angels became "the evil spirits" (xv. 8, xix. 19) who taught mankind all the arts of deception, witchcraft, and sin (vii.-viii., lxix.). But their children, the offspring of this mixture of an earthly and a celestial race, became, when slain, the hybrid race of disembodiedspirits or demons doing the work of destruction until the Day of Judgment (xvi. 1). -Jewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5085-demonology#anchor7) (1 Enoch (http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm), 2 Enoch (http://web.archive.org/web/20061113025725/http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/2Enoch.html))


Another type of angels are those that are created through the deeds of man. In the words of our Sages: "He who fulfills one mitzvah, acquires for himself one angel-advocate; he who commits one transgression, acquires against himself one angel-accuser."11 These are formed from the (intellectual and emotional) energy which one invests in the performance of a mitzvah, the study of Torah, or in prayer—or, conversely, energy applied in the execution of a sin. -What Are Angels? Chabad (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/692875/jewish/What-Are-Angels.htm)

I've considered another possibility, that Satan's angels cast out from the War in Heaven of Revelation may not necessarily refer to all demons, but refers to cherubim in Genesis 3, where their removal would allow man back to the Tree of Life, damnation of man out of the Garden vs. salvation of man back into the Garden:


Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Epoetker
01-22-2014, 11:01 PM
Has your modern education left you ignorant of all the stories involving the scheming royal vizier (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilChancellor)? Even if it has, enough time in any human organization should see the pattern repeat itself in a hundred small ways.

37818
01-23-2014, 12:06 AM
". . . Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. . . ." -- Genesis 3:1.

". . . Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, . . . _ . . . Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; . . . _ . . . Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; . . . _ . . . Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." -- Ezekiel 28:2. 13-15.

". . . against the king of Babylon, . . . _ . . . How art thou fallen from heaven, O *Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." -- Isaiah 14:4, 12-15.

* Translated from the Hebrew into Latin and the Latin trasliterated to English as Lucifer.

" . . . the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." -- Revelation 12:9.

whag
01-23-2014, 06:36 AM
A lot of what people think they know about him is just myth that self-perpetuates itself.

true. judging from the scriptures offered so far, most Christians believe a myth that Satan was an angel who turned bad and recruited other angels to join him, who then became demons. is that a minimal fact that we can be certain about?




1)
2) He has participated in acts of...accusation

are you referring to Job? I thought Job was a myth.



3) He attempted to throw a wrench in the ministry of Jesus and the formation of the early church


was it just him or demons well? did he call the shots for the demons (I assume "forces of darkness" refers to Satan's army)?



)4 As a preterist, I'd say he's no longer active in the world but will be again one day

for what purpose will he be unbound?

whag
01-23-2014, 06:43 AM
Has your modern education left you ignorant of all the stories involving the scheming royal vizier (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilChancellor)? Even if it has, enough time in any human organization should see the pattern repeat itself in a hundred small ways.

Satan is similar to Jafar from Alladin?

Sparko
01-23-2014, 06:47 AM
Well you see whag, Satan and God were best buds until God found out that Satan was a Canadian, then he disowned him and tossed him out of the United States of Heaven. Satan then started recruiting Canadian actors and singers like Robin Thicke and exporting them to the USA. That was the beginning of the feud.

Meh Gerbil
01-23-2014, 06:49 AM
Satan is similar to Jafar from Alladin?
Jafar carried a staff and has an annoying parrot as a familiar.
Satan carries a pitch fork and has Darth Executor as a familiar.

Sparko
01-23-2014, 06:54 AM
Jafar carried a staff and has an annoying parrot as a familiar.
Satan carries a pitch fork and has Darth Executor as a familiar.

So they are the same after all?

Meh Gerbil
01-23-2014, 06:57 AM
So they are the same after all?
Sure, if you're willing to look past the differences between a staff and a pitchfork.

whag
01-23-2014, 07:00 AM
Well you see whag, Satan and God were best buds until God found out that Satan was a Canadian, then he disowned him and tossed him out of the United States of Heaven. Satan then started recruiting Canadian actors and singers like Robin Thicke and exporting them to the USA. That was the beginning of the feud.

When Satan tempted Jesus with the Kingdom of Canada, Jesus said no thanks.

Sparko
01-23-2014, 07:31 AM
Sure, if you're willing to look past the differences between a staff and a pitchfork.

I always thought Darth-e WAS Satan. Live and learn, I suppose.

showmeproof
01-23-2014, 04:27 PM
For anyone actually interested in studying about the origins of Satan, I recommend The Old Enemy (http://www.amazon.com/The-Old-Enemy-Neil-Forsyth/dp/0691014744/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390523202&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Old+Enemy) by Niel Forsyth

37818
01-23-2014, 07:09 PM
. . . judging from the scriptures offered so far, most Christians believe a myth that Satan . . ."

How do you draw your conclusion what Christians believe on the account of holy scripture to be myth. Please give a step by step explanation. Thanks.

Manwë Súlimo
01-23-2014, 07:16 PM
true. judging from the scriptures offered so far, most Christians believe a myth that Satan was an angel who turned bad and recruited other angels to join him, who then became demons. is that a minimal fact that we can be certain about?

I'd agree he's a spirit that turned bad, as I don't think any Christian can believe anything starts out bad. Not even Sauron was so... As for the rest, I'm not sure. It's not something I've particularly studied.



was it just him or demons well? did he call the shots for the demons (I assume "forces of darkness" refers to Satan's army)?

One of the minimal facts that most scholars in historical Jesus studies will admit is that Jesus had a ministry of exorcisms (though some would call these exorcisms psychosomatic). As a Christian, I'd say He experienced multiple real demons, not just the satan. I'm not sure if Satan "called the shots", though it's something I'm open to as every organization needs hierarchy - I'm just not sure how confident we can be about mapping a system out that we haven't received special revelation.


for what purpose will he be unbound?

He has a part to play yet.

Manwë Súlimo
01-23-2014, 07:18 PM
Oops, missed one...


are you referring to Job? I thought Job was a myth.

The early Jews always had the belief of the satan being an accuser - he even gets his name from that job description. I don't have any particular historical instance in mind.

whag
01-24-2014, 08:49 AM
I'd agree he's a spirit that turned bad, as I don't think any Christian can believe anything starts out bad. Not even Sauron was so... As for the rest, I'm not sure. It's not something I've particularly studied.

in general, what do Christians believe turned some angels bad?





One of the minimal facts that most scholars in historical Jesus studies will admit is that Jesus had a ministry of exorcisms (though some would call these exorcisms psychosomatic). As a Christian, I'd say He experienced multiple real demons, not just the satan. I'm not sure if Satan "called the shots", though it's something I'm open to as every organization needs hierarchy - I'm just not sure how confident we can be about mapping a system out that we haven't received special revelation.


how would jesus distinguish between psychosomatic episodes and demonic possession. also, Jesus' reference to a house divided would indicate organization and intelligent planning. the house is the house of satan's demons. jesus' point to the pharisees is that satan wouldnt exorcize demons from human beings. it would be counterintuitive. at least that's my interpretation.



He has a part to play yet.

what part will Satan play? where is he now?

whag
01-24-2014, 08:51 AM
thanks! I was gonna buy it, but it's not available digitally through google play.

whag
01-24-2014, 09:13 AM
it sounds like the character of Satan has been anthropomorphized over the years. I wonder if that has been due to people needing to interpret the inner voices they hear when they feel guilty. interpreting those voices as an accusing/lying/jealous spirit could be an understandable coping mechanism. Socrates called inner voices the daemon, I believe.

whag
01-24-2014, 09:28 AM
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_mythology)

here's a better explanation of the daemon concept in religion and philosophy.

Sparko
01-24-2014, 09:35 AM
My theory is that Atheists reject the notion of God because they don't want to be bothered by the concept of morality being something objective.

Gee this trolling thing is fun Whag.

whag
01-24-2014, 09:51 AM
My theory is that Atheists reject the notion of God because they don't want to be bothered by the concept of morality being something objective.

Gee this trolling thing is fun Whag.

Bothered theism comes in the form of the Phelpses and Rick Warren. yes, trolling can be fun in moderation.

Sparko
01-24-2014, 09:53 AM
Atheism is just a myth.

Darth Executor
01-24-2014, 10:10 AM
The dinosaurs were atheist, look where that got them.

whag
01-24-2014, 10:43 AM
Atheism is just a myth.

atheism is more about thinking rationally about phenomena than assigning it dubious causation. Thomas Paine was a theist, but his thinking on these matters more than suffices as a presentation of atheism. in fact, its far preferable to me than any Dawkins or Harris screed.

whag
01-24-2014, 10:44 AM
The dinosaurs were atheist, look where that got them.

yes, revered, admired, and feared even eons after their demise.

Shadow Templar
01-27-2014, 10:31 PM
yes, revered, admired, and feared even eons after their demise.

Demise. So they lost. Cool story, bro.

whag
01-28-2014, 10:13 PM
Oops, missed one...



The early Jews always had the belief of the satan being an accuser - he even gets his name from that job description. I don't have any particular historical instance in mind.

It's hard to get one's mind around the concept of that office. Who hired him and for what ultimate purpose?

whag
02-04-2014, 06:59 AM
scratching the surface of the Satan story reveals the incoherence of the belief. i dont understand it.

JohnnyP
02-04-2014, 11:33 AM
scratching the surface of the Satan story reveals the incoherence of the belief. i dont understand it.

The Serpent was created as a cherub to help Adam in Genesis 2, he double-crossed him instead, continues to mislead men, seems simple to me.

whag
02-04-2014, 11:58 AM
The Serpent was created as a cherub to help Adam in Genesis 2, he double-crossed him instead, continues to mislead men

His qualifications seem incompatible with the office to which he was appointed. No employer hires like that.

How does he try to mislead you?

JohnnyP
02-04-2014, 01:13 PM
His qualifications seem incompatible with the office to which he was appointed. No employer hires like that.

Free will allows for failure, look what happened to Judas as he was appointed to be a disciple.

As I said elsewhere, the Serpent's functions as Adam's helper seem similar to High Priest and Temple functions:


Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Compare:


Exodus 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

A priest is forbidden to enter the Temple except at the time of the service, nor may anyone enter the holy of holies except for the high priest at the proper times during the Yom Kippur service, as it says "And he shall not come at all times into the holy place inside the curtain in front of the cover that is on the ark, and he shall not die". -Torah.org (http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha-overview/chapter43.html)


The Serpent was anointed like a High Priest who was only allowed in the Holy Place, others died.
The Serpent was like a Cherub that covered the Mercy Seat from which God's Laws came.
The Serpent interpreted God's Laws about the Tree of Knowledge to Eve.
Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge and died.


So story mirrors one of the Serpent wrongly leading Adam and Eve into the Holy Place of God's Knowledge causing their deaths.

In the Gospels, the High Priest also helped cause the death of Jesus. So High Priests aren't always perfect.


How does he try to mislead you?

Job is a good example, universal among many believers, Satan trying to get us to curse God when things don't go our way.

whag
02-04-2014, 01:50 PM
Free will allows for failure, look what happened to Judas as he was appointed to be a disciple.

Consider that judas witnessed deity-proving miracles but then kissed God and got him arrested. This is hardly believable. in apologetics, we're told the disciples endured monstrous cruelty and never recanted ONLY because they had eyewitness confirmation of Jesus' deity.

Was it compelling proof or not? Only a madman would see a higher reward in killing God, therefore the judas story isn't believable. Free will isn't an excuse to ignore obvious mental illness in a person.






Job is a good example, universal among many believers, Satan trying to get us to curse God when things don't go our way.

Job is a myth. You really think suffering and hardship should be interpreted thus?

JohnnyP
02-04-2014, 05:48 PM
Consider that judas witnessed deity-proving miracles but then kissed God and got him arrested. This is hardly believable. in apologetics, we're told the disciples endured monstrous cruelty and never recanted ONLY because they had eyewitness confirmation of Jesus' deity.

Peter denied Jesus too. But are you saying all Christians not eyewitnessing Jesus recanted belief as they were being martyred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs)? That's kind of an amazing claim, is there any evidence of this? Recalling...



John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Was it compelling proof or not? Only a madman would see a higher reward in killing God, therefore the judas story isn't believable. Free will isn't an excuse to ignore obvious mental illness in a person.

Some speculate that Judas may have thought Jesus was a false prophet performing miracles of Satan. Others that he was a Zealot and because he didn't see a Warrior Messiah, believed he was a False Messiah. Various believable reasons as to why Judas did what he did.


Job is a myth.

When you ask, "How does he try to mislead you?" I take it as, "How do you believe he tries to mislead you?" I don't take every question about God or the Bible as a challenge to prove God exists or that the Bible is always about true events, we already know there is no proof about much of it, yet. Not really being interested in that goose chase or trying to defend it as a true story, I can only state belief that it is. I am more interested in discussing how the Bible can make sense, how an omniscient God can allow free will, etc.


You really think suffering and hardship should be interpreted thus?

Nope, sometimes stuff just happens too. When it does, I believe Satan and demons can try to cause people to lose faith and curse God for their misfortunes. As well as cause people to linger on thoughts of other sins like adultery, hatred, etc. It's not a case of "the devil made me do it" if we give in, but believers are responsible for asking God to remove those temptations.

whag
02-04-2014, 07:29 PM
Peter denied Jesus too. But are you saying all Christians not eyewitnessing Jesus recanted belief as they were being martyred? That's kind of an amazing claim, is there any evidence of this? Recalling...

No, I referenced a common apologetic that Christians use to explain why Christianity didn't fizzle out.


John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

one might as well credit Mormons and Muslims for believing that which they did not see. it hardly seems a virtue when people believe weird things apart from directly seeing them take place.



Some speculate that Judas may have thought Jesus was a false prophet performing miracles of Satan.

if it was a genuine religious misunderstanding, it surely becomes more believable. IOW, Judas cashes in on false prophet of Satan who deserves to die. I get that.



Others that he was a Zealot and because he didn't see a Warrior Messiah, believed he was a False Messiah. Various believable reasons as to why Judas did what he did.

surely, those explanations seek to minimize the incredulity of Judas' story, interpreting his actions as motivated by genuine religious misunderstanding. Did satan possibly experience a similar misunderstanding that makes the story more believable to you?




When you ask, "How does he try to mislead you?" I take it as, "How do you believe he tries to mislead you?" I don't take every question about God or the Bible as a challenge to prove God exists or that the Bible is always about true events, we already know there is no proof about much of it, yet. Not really being interested in that goose chase or trying to defend it as a true story, I can only state belief that it is. I am more interested in discussing how the Bible can make sense, how an omniscient God can allow free will, etc.

You said Satan tests you like he did with Job, then bow put of further discussion of that vital interaction.



Nope, sometimes stuff just happens too. When it does, I believe Satan and demons can try to cause people to lose faith and curse God for their misfortunes.

and if they succeed in getting you to curse God while you're suffering, what does God do? are they trying to force a divine reaction?


As well as cause people to linger on thoughts of other sins like adultery, hatred, etc. It's not a case of "the devil made me do it" if we give in, but believers are responsible for asking God to remove those temptations.

these demons have the power to read your mind and extend your negative thoughts? I'm not a believer, but when I get a negative thought I go for a brisk walk and counter negative thoughts with positive ones. this seems to me a more rational approach than thinking demons have access to your cognition.

my mother in law, for example, has gone off the rails with this belief in satan and would be much better off without the burden of believing in demons bent on her destruction. surely you agree this worldview isn't for everybody, yes?

Sparko
02-05-2014, 06:37 AM
Whag, I don't know if you are really that ignorant or are just acting like it.

The argument Christians use is that since the apostle knew Jesus and were eyewitnesses, they would know if Christianity was true or false. That being the case, they would have no incentive to be tortured to death to protect what they knew to be a lie.

It says nothing about all non eye-witnesses recanting their testimony. Simply put, if someone was just taking the apostles word for Christianity, they might indeed die for a lie, since they didn't know it was a lie. But the eye-witnesses WOULD know and would not die for what they knew was a lie.

The rest of your arguments about Satan are just as twisted and bad also. I assume you are just trolling, but perhaps you are really that ignorant. Either way you are not worth our time.

whag
02-05-2014, 07:23 AM
Either way you are not worth our time.

that's not true, and you should speak for yourself.

certainly some stubborn zealots with hot heads will beg for death rather than recant their faith. i imagine the apostles couldn't imagine life in a society which would put a sword to their neck merely because they had a differing theology. indeed,that would be an enjoyable existence.

I understand why you use the apologetic, because you think people think binarily. people are much more complex than that.I used Judas as an example of an inexplicable action. notice that johnny p seemed to agree Judas' actions makes no sense, so he gave some scenarios which explain the action.

read superfically, Judas' actions are those of a madman. read with the context of a superstitious culture brimming with false prophets and religious confusion, the stories make more sense. this was a culture that thought it morally acceptable to forge documents in other people's "authoritative" names. think about the moral confusion that abounded. give it a try and don't be afraid.

Sparko
02-05-2014, 07:27 AM
:rofl:

whag
02-05-2014, 08:40 AM
How do you draw your conclusion what Christians believe on the account of holy scripture to be myth. Please give a step by step explanation. Thanks.

If you don't know that genesis and job are myths by now, you must be a fundamentalist. Only fundamentalists insist that these stories are pure recorded history.

Sparko
02-05-2014, 08:58 AM
If you don't know that genesis and job are myths by now, you must be a fundamentalist. Only fundamentalists insist that these stories are pure recorded history.
More stupidity from whag.

Whag, have you ever gotten anything right when it comes to understanding Christianity?

whag
02-05-2014, 09:01 AM
More stupidity from whag.

Whag, have you ever gotten anything right when it comes to understanding Christianity?

Yes, in particular, that Genesis is wrong about biology and therefore a myth and also that Job isn't a historical account. Thank you for your time.

Sparko
02-05-2014, 09:04 AM
Yes, in particular, that Genesis is wrong about biology and therefore a myth and also that Job isn't a historical account. Thank you for your time.

proclaiming your view doesn't make it correct, you imbecile.

whag
02-05-2014, 09:12 AM
proclaiming your view doesn't make it correct, you imbecile.

Calling someone an imbecile makes you appear easily agitated. This is not a good attitude. Take a brisk walk.

Again, Genesis and Job are only historical accounts to fundamentalists. More reasonable Christians with a modicum of scientific and historical knowledge (even high school-level knowledge), understand this. Thank you for your time.

Sparko
02-05-2014, 09:20 AM
Calling someone an imbecile makes you appear easily agitated. This is not a good attitude. Take a brisk walk.

Again, Genesis and Job are only historical accounts to fundamentalists. More reasonable Christians with a modicum of scientific and historical knowledge (even high school-level knowledge), understand this. Thank you for your time.

I called you an imbecile because you act like one. You don't have a clue what Christians or Christian fundamentalists believe. You don't understand what we believe about Satan, or about Genesis, or Job, or God, or anything. And pretending you do makes you look like an imbecile.

Spartacus
02-05-2014, 09:26 AM
I called you an imbecile because you act like one. You don't have a clue what Christians or Christian fundamentalists believe. You don't understand what we believe about Satan, or about Genesis, or Job, or God, or anything. And pretending you do makes you look like an imbecile.

Actually, he seems to have a more or less accurate understanding of the current state of biblical scholarship. The earliest chapters of Genesis, at least, are generally regarded as intended as something other than literal history, and Job is typically regarded as part of the wisdom literature rather than as part of the historical account of the Israelites.

whag
02-05-2014, 09:33 AM
I called you an imbecile because you act like one. You don't have a clue what Christians or Christian fundamentalists believe. You don't understand what we believe about Satan, or about Genesis, or Job, or God, or anything. And pretending you do makes you look like an imbecile.

Actually, I do. Instead of name calling, you should simply present your case that Job is a historical account rather than obvious myth. It's kind of strange you think God and Satan literally interact that way. This is only controversial to Christian fundamentalists.

Go outside and take some deep breaths. You need it. Thank you for your time.

whag
02-05-2014, 09:59 AM
Actually, he seems to have a more or less accurate understanding of the current state of biblical scholarship. The earliest chapters of Genesis, at least, are generally regarded as intended as something other than literal history, and Job is typically regarded as part of the wisdom literature rather than as part of the historical account of the Israelites.

Thank you. Yes, I did not think I was making a really controversial claim here!

Sparko
02-05-2014, 10:13 AM
Thank you. Yes, I did not think I was making a really controversial claim here!

I never said that some Christians didn't believe parts of Genesis or Job were "myth" - I said that not only fundamentalists believe it is history.

Not to mention you seem not to know what is in Genesis in the first place. It is not just the creation story and Noah. :duh:

whag
02-05-2014, 10:29 AM
I never said that some Christians didn't believe parts of Genesis or Job were "myth" - I said that not only fundamentalists believe it is history.

I never said some Christians don't try to shoehorn historicity into myth. That's obvious. Usually that involves a heavy amount of speculation. Such as JohnnyP's speculations about Satan the helpmeet. =)

what I didn't let you get away with was your implication that Genesis and Job are historical accounts. They're actually reworked myths.


Not to mention you seem not to know what is in Genesis in the first place. It is not just the creation story and Noah. :duh:

It was obvious I was talking about the beginning of Genesis, but, yes, you have a point. Stories about demons having sex with human girls--and donkeys that talk--must certainly be historical. They MUST be. Thank you for your time.

Sparko
02-05-2014, 10:43 AM
I never said some Christians don't try to shoehorn historicity into myth. That's obvious. Usually that involves a heavy amount of speculation. Such as JohnnyP's speculations about Satan the helpmeet. =)

what I didn't let you get away with was your implication that Genesis and Job are historical accounts. They're actually reworked myths.



It was obvious I was talking about the beginning of Genesis, but, yes, you have a point. Stories about demons having sex with human girls--and donkeys that talk--must certainly be historical. They MUST be. Thank you for your time.


again, you just toss out your opinion as fact. You are a twit.

Cerebrum123
02-05-2014, 10:45 AM
again, you just toss out your opinion as fact. You are a twit.

Proverbs 18:2 Fools find no pleasure in understanding
but delight in airing their own opinions.

:teeth:

Sparko
02-05-2014, 10:46 AM
Proverbs 18:2 Fools find no pleasure in understanding
but delight in airing their own opinions.

:teeth:

Amen.

whag
02-05-2014, 11:00 AM
again, you just toss out your opinion as fact. You are a twit.

You've been a Christian for a decade, if not longer, without knowing Job is myth and not history. You should get out of the house more.

Thank you for your time.

Sparko
02-05-2014, 11:04 AM
Whag is so entertaining. :rofl:

Spartacus
02-05-2014, 11:05 AM
again, you just toss out your opinion as fact. You are a twit.

Given that I have voiced my support of Whag's claims, I'm inclined to take this personally.

whag
02-05-2014, 11:11 AM
Proverbs 18:2 Fools find no pleasure in understanding
but delight in airing their own opinions.

:teeth:

Ironic, since you can't process the concept of eons and evolution. =) I would think a key requirement of being a Christian is processing TRUTH, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you.

Sparko
02-05-2014, 11:17 AM
Given that I have voiced my support of Whag's claims, I'm inclined to take this personally.

Go right ahead. Do you think only fundamentalists accept Genesis and Job as historical?

whag
02-05-2014, 11:21 AM
Go right ahead. Do you think only fundamentalists accept Genesis and Job as historical?

The question isn't if some nonfundies take it as semi-historical but what basis in fact they have for interpreting it thus.

Sparko
02-05-2014, 11:23 AM
The question isn't if some nonfundies take it as semi-historical but what basis in fact they have for interpreting it thus.

Oh really? Let's see what you said:


If you don't know that genesis and job are myths by now, you must be a fundamentalist. Only fundamentalists insist that these stories are pure recorded history.

whag
02-05-2014, 11:28 AM
Oh really? Let's see what you said:

Exactly. You won't find any moderates who'd claim Genesis and Job are pure recorded history. Anyone that would claim that would is blissfully unaware of how these texts came about and evolved.

whag
02-05-2014, 11:29 AM
Forgot to say thank you for your time. I feel so worthy now.

Cerebrum123
02-05-2014, 11:29 AM
Ironic, since you can't process the concept of eons and evolution. =) I would think a key requirement of being a Christian is processing TRUTH, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you.

Oh, I understand the concept, I just don't accept it as true. I have my reasons.

Spartacus
02-05-2014, 11:31 AM
Go right ahead. Do you think only fundamentalists accept Genesis and Job as historical?

If the question is, do only fundamentalists take Genesis and Job as, in whag's words, "pure recorded history," then my answer is an unequivocal yes. There are parts of Genesis in particular that can be taken as history, but I think it's clear from the context of this thread that the specific parts of Genesis in question are the parts where Satan appears and not the parts discussing Abraham and his descendents.

Is Genesis PURE recorded history? Most certainly not. Is it entirely mythical? No, and I don't think whag's statements imply that it is.

Taking Job as historical also tends to discount the way in which Jews tend to treat the book-- as more like Psalms or Proverbs than Joshua or Kings

whag
02-05-2014, 11:34 AM
Oh, I understand the concept, I just don't accept it as true. I have my reasons.

And those reasons happen to be regurgitated fundamentalist crap. You've been informed of this time and time again, by Christian brothers, no less. Yet you still persist in the deliberate misunderstanding proverbs warned you about.

Cerebrum123
02-05-2014, 11:40 AM
And those reasons happen to be regurgitated fundamentalist crap. You've been informed of this time and time again, by Christian brothers, no less. Yet you still persist in the deliberate misunderstanding proverbs warned you about.

I don't have to listen to every Christian that comes along. I am open to the possibility that I am wrong, but I haven't been given good Biblical reason to accept either TE, or OEC. In fact, the more I study all subjects related to this, the further I am pushed away from those positions. My authority is Scripture, not the opinions of other Christians. This is going to be my last response to you, as you are obviously a troll.

whag
02-05-2014, 11:49 AM
I don't have to listen to every Christian that comes along. I am open to the possibility that I am wrong, but I haven't been given good Biblical reason to accept either TE, or OEC. In fact, the more I study all subjects related to this, the further I am pushed away from those positions. My authority is Scripture, not the opinions of other Christians. This is going to be my last response to you, as you are obviously a troll.

The genuinely curious study the moon and analyze its features to understand its origin and history. To people like you, it's merely a light because God said so, created ex nihilo with no substantive history.

This is but one example of how fundamentalism obliterates epistemology, preferring raw superstition and fear instead. You are a primate made of supernova dust. Deal with it.

RBerman
02-05-2014, 12:12 PM
If the question is, do only fundamentalists take Genesis and Job as, in whag's words, "pure recorded history," then my answer is an unequivocal yes. There are parts of Genesis in particular that can be taken as history, but I think it's clear from the context of this thread that the specific parts of Genesis in question are the parts where Satan appears and not the parts discussing Abraham and his descendents.
That depends on whose definition of "fundamentalist" you are using. In the early 20th century, "fundamentalist" was very similar to "evangelical," but the terms have diverged. As a result, I have reservations about considering myself a "fundamentalist," but I do believe that Genesis 1-11 is historical in its details as well as its overall thrust. As for Job, see below.


Taking Job as historical also tends to discount the way in which Jews tend to treat the book-- as more like Psalms or Proverbs than Joshua or Kings

As an evangelical and maybe a fundamentalist, I have no problems saying that the poetry which occupies most of the book is not a verbatim transcript of a conversation. I'm much less willing to assign the framing chapters at the beginning and the end to the realm of fable. It may certainly be interesting to see how various Jews treated various books, but I wouldn't assign controlling weight to their approach.

whag
02-05-2014, 12:37 PM
I do believe that Genesis 1-11 is historical in its details as well as its overall thrust.

That doesn't seem to be endorsing the text as pure recorded history. Cultures were well established across the globe prior to 4000 BC, yet Genesis says the origin of the world's cultures is the result of the gods putting a stop to a large-scale architectural project.

JohnnyP
02-05-2014, 04:30 PM
No, I referenced a common apologetic that Christians use to explain why Christianity didn't fizzle out.

I see, I wouldn't argue that myself since non-eyewitnesses can be adamant about faith to the point of martyrdom.


one might as well credit Mormons and Muslims for believing that which they did not see. it hardly seems a virtue when people believe weird things apart from directly seeing them take place.

For example it is said that Giordano Bruno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno) "correctly proposed that the Sun was just another star moving in space, and claimed as well that the universe contained an infinite number of inhabited worlds populated by other intelligent beings. The Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy, and he was burned at the stake."

Scientists also believe or suggest a lot of seemingly weird things without directly seeing them take place. Sometimes right and a virtue, sometimes wrong and maybe not so much.


if it was a genuine religious misunderstanding, it surely becomes more believable. IOW, Judas cashes in on false prophet of Satan who deserves to die. I get that.

surely, those explanations seek to minimize the incredulity of Judas' story, interpreting his actions as motivated by genuine religious misunderstanding. Did satan possibly experience a similar misunderstanding that makes the story more believable to you?

Some suggest that Satan in the Garden thought he was helping recalling the story of Prometheus, but still guilty of hubris and twisting God's Will to conform to his own ideas. A traditional view is that Satan was jealous and wanted to get out of being Adam's servant by causing his downfall. The Quran goes into more detail about that with Satan as Iblis, and I lean more to that interpretation although I don't rule out the first.


You said Satan tests you like he did with Job, then bow put of further discussion of that vital interaction.

Here I was just replying to your comment that Job is a myth, where I'm not interested in arguing whether it is or not. My belief and feeling is that Satan tries to lure me away from God when things don't go my way, similar to Job's story.


and if they succeed in getting you to curse God while you're suffering, what does God do? are they trying to force a divine reaction?

To me a primary work of Satan/demons now as deceivers and accusers is trying to get humans to reject the idea of God altogether -- "How could a real God do this to me?" -- "If I ditch belief in God I won't feel guilty all the time." -- Etc.


these demons have the power to read your mind and extend your negative thoughts? I'm not a believer, but when I get a negative thought I go for a brisk walk and counter negative thoughts with positive ones. this seems to me a more rational approach than thinking demons have access to your cognition.

my mother in law, for example, has gone off the rails with this belief in satan and would be much better off without the burden of believing in demons bent on her destruction. surely you agree this worldview isn't for everybody, yes?

It may be she's more enchanted and obsessed with the idea that she's special and a target for demons, rather than doing something more productive to combat it, like volunteer work. Doesn't really matter what causes your problem in that regard -- cancer, divorce, demons -- what matters is what you do about it.


Usually that involves a heavy amount of speculation. Such as JohnnyP's speculations about Satan the helpmeet. =)

Not much speculation required, following are created to be helpers in Adam's heavenly realm, which is implied here:



Genesis 2:18 ...I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field...

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field...

Not regular animals on earth from Genesis 1, since they were around before humans who evolved after them, my position. But cherubim.

whag
02-05-2014, 09:08 PM
I see, I wouldn't argue that myself since non-eyewitnesses can be adamant about faith to the point of martyrdom.



For example it is said that Giordano Bruno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno) "correctly proposed that the Sun was just another star moving in space, and claimed as well that the universe contained an infinite number of inhabited worlds populated by other intelligent beings. The Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy, and he was burned at the stake."

Scientists also believe or suggest a lot of seemingly weird things without directly seeing them take place. Sometimes right and a virtue, sometimes wrong and maybe not so much.



Some suggest that Satan in the Garden thought he was helping recalling the story of Prometheus, but still guilty of hubris and twisting God's Will to conform to his own ideas. A traditional view is that Satan was jealous and wanted to get out of being Adam's servant by causing his downfall. The Quran goes into more detail about that with Satan as Iblis, and I lean more to that interpretation although I don't rule out the first.



Here I was just replying to your comment that Job is a myth, where I'm not interested in arguing whether it is or not. My belief and feeling is that Satan tries to lure me away from God when things don't go my way, similar to Job's story.



To me a primary work of Satan/demons now as deceivers and accusers is trying to get humans to reject the idea of God altogether -- "How could a real God do this to me?" -- "If I ditch belief in God I won't feel guilty all the time." -- Etc.



It may be she's more enchanted and obsessed with the idea that she's special and a target for demons, rather than doing something more productive to combat it, like volunteer work. Doesn't really matter what causes your problem in that regard -- cancer, divorce, demons -- what matters is what you do about it.



Not much speculation required, following are created to be helpers in Adam's heavenly realm, which is implied here:




Not regular animals on earth from Genesis 1, since they were around before humans who evolved after them, my position. But cherubim.

though it doesn't make sense to me, I find your theology refreshing because it leaves a fair amount of room to pick and choose. I can tell you've struggled to have it make sense to you. I do admire that.

as for my-mom-in-law, she's too debilitated by fundamentalist guilt to think she's anything special. what makes me sad is that I can't get through to her because Christians have taught her to be suspicious of non-christians. where's her help to come from? she can't even pray for it because she doesnt know she has a problem, neither does she have the education to understand the nuances of her religion that allowed you to adapt to the discoveries in natural science.

I think there's a lot of wreckage of fundamentalism and few with any ideas on how to reverse the damage.

JohnnyP
02-05-2014, 09:54 PM
though it doesn't make sense to me, I find your theology refreshing because it leaves a fair amount of room to pick and choose. I can tell you've struggled to have it make sense to you. I do admire that.

as for my-mom-in-law, she's too debilitated by fundamentalist guilt to think she's anything special. what makes me sad is that I can't get through to her because Christians have taught her to be suspicious of non-christians. where's her help to come from? she can't even pray for it because she doesnt know she has a problem, neither does she have the education to understand the nuances of her religion that allowed you to adapt to the discoveries in natural science.

I think there's a lot of wreckage of fundamentalism and few with any ideas on how to reverse the damage.

I'm sorry you are in that situation and wish I could suggest something better. For me just getting out of my own head and helping others works best, like pulling the elderly neighbor's weeds and putting her trash cans in the street to be picked up, things simple as that.

But if she won't even admit she has a problem, I don't know if there's a whole lot you can do except to encourage her to do something different. Maybe even suggest a different church and go with her to emphasize happiness of fellowship, rather than morbid thoughts of Satan. Get some of her more reasonable Christian peers to talk to her, if you can. That may get through where you can't, but you are still helping.