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learning
May 15th 2004, 09:37 AM
This is from the book 'The Ultimate Guide to Christian History' and has some of the first debates of the Christian church.

Here's the first.

Whether new Gentile christians should become Jewish and follow the Mosaic law. The counsel of Jerusalem, after hearing from Paul and Peter, sent these lifestyle guidelines, since Peter pointed out that since they had received the Holy Spirit and were acceptable to God, how could they argue that God didn't accept them as they were.
Here are the guidelines, from page 95 of above book.
1. Abstain from food sacrificed to idols.
2. Abstain from eating blood
3. Abstain from eating the meat of strangled animals
4. Abstain from sexual immorality.

from the counsel of Jerusalem.

In the first few centuries, the debates were very important, and the first of importance was the 'person of Jesus Christ'
from above book page 113
"The early church drew a simple line in the sand doctrinally. It was the person of Christ.
Any belief that took away from either the humanity of Christ or the deity of christ was considered heresy." (see first John 4:1-3.)
Heresies from page 114
Ebionites 'were a Jewish-Christian sect that taught Jesus was merely a very obedient man who became the Messiah."
Docetism "(from the Greek verb 'to seem')
granted that Christ was not really a man, but only seemed to be a man and seemed to suffer and die.
Arianism '(which appeared in the next centuries) stated that Christ was of God, but not equal to God.
Gnosticism 'believed to possess a special knowledge of the spiritual and a disdain for the material world. Why would a Messiah have a 'body', of all things?"
Next came the debate over the canon, because of a heresy where someone said the Old Testament was not scripture, so the church figured out the canon of the Old and New Testament by the 'Council of Carthage' in 400 A.D.

Not in debate, but of importance was Tertullian, who in A.D. wrote books promoting the christian faith, his famous being 'Apologeticum' and also he was known for being the first person to use the Latin word for 'Trinity'.

from page 172 of above book
'In the Red corner: Jesus was one nature- divine and human at the same time.
And in the Blue corner: Jesus was of two natures - divine and human, but the two do not intermix.

Round 1. - 381 A.D. Second Ecumenical Council
The winner: the blue corner
Round 2. - 431 A.D. Third Ecumenical Council
The winner: the red corner
Round 3. - 449 The 'Robber Synod'
The winner: the red corner
Round 4. 451 The Council of Chalcedon
The winner: the blue corner

....The conflict continued to escalate and finally came to a head under the emperor Zeno, causing a split between the Eastern And Western churches.'
end of quote

Other debates were what Martin Luther put up his 95 thesis's for, were for debate. ie., the authority of the church over the authority of God's word, over things like indulgences, penace, etc.

Also, things like baptism, predestination, feewill etc., which are still debated today.

This helps me to see why there are so many denominations. Some hold to a certain position, and want that freedom to hold to that position. Other denominations came about with revival, and the 'older church' didn't approve of these revivals sometimes, so the 'newer' church was more or less forced out on their own, and formed their own 'societies' eg. Methodism.

Learning we have a rule against back to back postings by the same poster. Your post have been combined into one. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

Thanks

Jude3b
May 15th 2004, 12:33 PM
The reason why there are so many denominations:
1) Men are not subject to Christ.
2) Men are subject to their Religion and religious teachers.

The body of Christ, the true church of God, that we read about in the New Testament is "subject unto Christ, its head (Eph 5:24); therefore we all have "one mind" (2 Cor. 13:11), "the mind of Christ" (I Cor. 2:16); hence are able "to be likeminded one to another," and "with one mind and one mouth (to) glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom 15:6). We "stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel" (Phil 1:27).

Satan knows a united body of Christ - the church of God, means that the world would be greatly impacted for Christ - much more so than it is currently. He could not conquer the church of God (body of Christ) by killing us off with martyrdoms and persecutions during the 1st to 4th century A.D.- so he decided to join "Christendom" and he set up Roman Catholicism, about 270 A.D. He joined the church and he continues to join every sect and denomination that men dream up. He creates creeds and dogmas that add to the Word of God and/or take away from the Word of God. He makes an idol out of denominations and sects.

We are "all one in Christ Jesus." "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1) Why? Because we have been "made free from the law of sin and death" (verse 2). To be in Christ, then signifies to be born of God and to have our sins removed by his grace. We become members of Christ and His church by the new birth, for without this experience of being "born again" we "can not see the kindgom of God" (John 3:3). By this spiritual birth we enter the spiritual family (Acts 2:47), where we possess the divine life which flows in all its members, and are thus "all one in Christ Jesus" by virtue of a spiritual blood-relationship.

John chapter 17 gives us the conditions for perfect unity in the Body of Christ, the church of the living God:
1- We must be "in Christ"
2- We must be kept in his name.
3- We must receive the Word of God and keep it.
4- We must be sanctified, which removes from the heart the cause of divisions.

External organization will never bring true unity. It is nothing more than a miserable counterfeit. Efforts to encourage Ecumenism is nothing more than another smokescreen, sponsored by Satan, to bring all religious groups back under the Vatican. The true body of Christ, will have no part of this false unity. Unity among religious groups is not true Christian unity.

Bible unity is based on spiritual life and is in perfect accordance with the Word of God. The truly saved have spiritual fellowship with each other, and know each other.

Not one text in the New Testament teaches that division among God's people is right; but everywhere unity is enjoined and division denounced. We read of one Lord, one salvation, one God, one faith, one Spirit, one mind, one mouth, one body, one baptism, one new and living way, one Bible, and one heaven. ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.

learning
May 15th 2004, 12:48 PM
Yes, I agree with what you said, and do you know that in quoting things from John 17, (I just learned this last year) that John 17 is considered the High Priestly prayer of Jesus, the Holy of Holies of the Bible by Bible scholars. It is Jesus' plan for the church, for the believers, His blueprint, His vision.

I am just quoting the 'History' of the church, and I can see God's Spirit does and has worked despite our outward organizations, the inward work still continues.
And even in these 'outward organizations' this inward work has shown to be there time after time.

I met a lady in a town called 'Tabor' in the Czech Republic. This was in 1996, after they were freed from Communism, and she was a christian, could speak a little English, and she knew my husband and I were Christians without us telling her. She spoke of how she belonged to a church connected with the 'Brothers' from Morovia, and I told her of how my church founder (John Wesley) had come across some of them on a ship and was impressed by their faith, and she said she had heard of that story too. She told me how she listened to the christian radio, and prayed and sang hymns with it, and worshiped with the 'brothers' in this old castle in Tabor. I told her of a joke I had heard the Mennonite Brothers in Canada tell. "There would be no 'Catholics, or Methodists or Anglicans in heaven, only 'Brothers in Christ'" and she laughed and said, 'Yes, we are all one in Him'

learning
May 15th 2004, 12:50 PM
She added "We are all the Bride."

Tercel
June 3rd 2004, 12:44 AM
from page 172 of above book
'In the Red corner: Jesus was one nature- divine and human at the same time.
And in the Blue corner: Jesus was of two natures - divine and human, but the two do not intermix.

Round 1. - 381 A.D. Second Ecumenical Council
The winner: the blue corner
Round 2. - 431 A.D. Third Ecumenical Council
The winner: the red corner
Round 3. - 449 The 'Robber Synod'
The winner: the red corner
Round 4. 451 The Council of Chalcedon
The winner: the blue corner

....The conflict continued to escalate and finally came to a head under the emperor Zeno, causing a split between the Eastern And Western churches.'That seems to me to have only a tangential relationship to the truth. I'd say the book is worth squat... throw it away before it misleads you further.

Jude3b
June 3rd 2004, 12:55 AM
Yes, I agree with what you said, and do you know that in quoting things from John 17, (I just learned this last year) that John 17 is considered the High Priestly prayer of Jesus, the Holy of Holies of the Bible by Bible scholars. It is Jesus' plan for the church, for the believers, His blueprint, His vision.

I am just quoting the 'History' of the church, and I can see God's Spirit does and has worked despite our outward organizations, the inward work still continues.
And even in these 'outward organizations' this inward work has shown to be there time after time.

I met a lady in a town called 'Tabor' in the Czech Republic. This was in 1996, after they were freed from Communism, and she was a christian, could speak a little English, and she knew my husband and I were Christians without us telling her. She spoke of how she belonged to a church connected with the 'Brothers' from Morovia, and I told her of how my church founder (John Wesley) had come across some of them on a ship and was impressed by their faith, and she said she had heard of that story too. She told me how she listened to the christian radio, and prayed and sang hymns with it, and worshiped with the 'brothers' in this old castle in Tabor. I told her of a joke I had heard the Mennonite Brothers in Canada tell. "There would be no 'Catholics, or Methodists or Anglicans in heaven, only 'Brothers in Christ'" and she laughed and said, 'Yes, we are all one in Him'

Amen, that is a nice message. Thank you for sharing it.

kofh2u
June 5th 2004, 09:37 PM
That seems to me to have only a tangential relationship to the truth. I'd say the book is worth squat... throw it away before it misleads you further.


The idea...
..that each of us has "the... The truth"...

That is the reason we fight and argue among our twelve different major denominations, is it not? We all are smugly sure.

We argue, not that it ourselves, Modern Homo Sapiens who have always had a dozen different views on any matter, it is not us, we argue, who must BECOME more democratic in our acceptance of others. It is the other fool who must surely see it our way, true?

No.
It is more "human" to find the others wrong and out of step with us, the Truth holders.

We forget that it is He, Christ, who is the Truth,...

.... not Jude3, not you, not Roman Catholicism, not.... well, the other denominations either.

The "legislation" of rules and doctrines, and orderly expression of what the Christian message WOULD be (and WAS) for the next thousand (1000) years was OK'd by the Big Boss (whether right or wrong). It must have been close enough for those early days of the Christianization of the Western World.

We know this is true because it is stated plainly in Scripture:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Christian authority) set up (during the reign of Gregory I, {590-604AD}), and judgment was GIVEN unto them (Universal Catholicism):

learning
July 11th 2004, 01:56 PM
That seems to me to have only a tangential relationship to the truth. I'd say the book is worth squat... throw it away before it misleads you further.

This book is just basics of christian church history, and they have a few sidebars like that above quote about the debates of the church that are meant to he somewhat humorous.
I thought it interesting considering debates that are still going on today.