Is God Present in Hell? (Freak versus Geoff) commentary

[dizzle]

Okay this thread is for commentary on the debate between Freak and Geoff on God’s presence in Hell located here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=33804#post33804


Bottles are prohibited, face paint is encouraged.

Please note that debate participants are not permitted to post in the comments thread for their particular debates until such debate is over. At that time, they are free to post and address any spectator commentary that they choose.

[geoff]

hurry up and comment :)

[dizzle]

Dig your avatar.

[geoff]

Why thank you, he does the dancing for me :)

[o2bwise]

The same fire that consumes sin, is the same fire that is bliss for the redeemed. Song of Solomon states that the fire that cannot be quenched (put out) is God's love. As an object lesson, Daniel 3 points to a furnace that Israeli's dwell in, with the Son of God. Meanwhile, Babylonians, who are not even in its fulness, are consumed. Jesus states that the lost are cast into a furnace where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. He then states that the righteous shine forth as the sun.

Hell is not a location as much as it is an experience. It is the experience of the lost when confronted with an unveiled revelation of the love of God. This revelation exposes to the lost their wicked characters as in a moment.

The lost bear the wages that are inherent to sin. These wages are borne in direct proportion to the degree to which sin is perceived. Those wages are painful emotions such as guilt, shame, and embarrassment.

God does not change. This IS the fire of His love. But, a sinful mentality lacks a certain sort of perception which we call faith. It is faith that is able to perceive and this appropriate acceptance, assurance, and forgiveness. Lacking this perception, while God does not change, His forgiveness is beyond perception and thus beyond reach.

Thus, the response to this psychic agony is DESPAIR, which is the final identity of their person.

Despair will crush out their lives. Judas is a good example of what befalls the lost. He goes out and hangs himself. Why? Did God "arbitrarily" induce these destructive feelings? NO! They came from within his own sin-sick mind.

Freak and Geoff are both wrong. Freak does not realize that "hell" is induced by divine love and is temporary. Geoff does not see that hell is the experience of lost simply being in the unveiled presence of God, who is, and always will be, love.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[Woman]

Makes sense. I never did believe in a physical heaven or hell - not a PLACE in time and space that one "goes" to. That didn't ring true.

[geoff]

o2bwise

Freak and Geoff are both wrong. Freak does not realize that "hell" is induced by divine love and is temporary. Geoff does not see that hell is the experience of lost simply being in the unveiled presence of God, who is, and always will be, love.

I dont see what this really has to do with the topic, which is "is God present in hell"

Secondly, I would like to see scriptural support for "hell is the experience of the lost simply being in the unveiled present of God".

According to Scripture, hell is quite clearly a lake of fire. You can read it yourself. It a lake of burning sulphur. We have another biblical example of that, Sodom and Gomorrah (read lennart Moller in "the exodus case for an interesting look at some discoveries around the area where these towns would have been). They were BURNT up by sulphur raining down on them, in an example of the wrath of God against the wicked. If that is simply "the experience of the lost simply being in the unveiled present of God" I'll eat my hat.

[studyhound]

Having gone through the post in the debate it seems that these two are just talking past one another. freak seems to be talking about"hell" from a gehenna type ala Luke 12.5.

While geoff is taking a lake of fire ala Rev. 20.14.

I think this could have been a better prepared debate. Specific verses to define which defintion they would be using. I see this alot when People talk about hell.

[studyhound]

Hey geoff aren't you supose to wait till you are done with the debate to post here? Just a wonderen:thumb:

Please note that debate participants are not permitted to post in the comments thread for their particular debates until such debate is over. At that time, they are free to post and address any spectator commentary that they choose.

[geoff]

Studyhound,

probably... as for talking past one another... I knew what he would say... the debate is over really already, because he wont see..

and if you read my posts you would see i defined what I meant by hell a few times, and also pointed out that he was confusing hell the intermediary state. What more can I do?

[Freak]

Today @ 10:32 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
geoff:

Studyhound,

probably... as for talking past one another... I knew what he would say... the debate is over really already, because he wont see..

and if you read my posts you would see i defined what I meant by hell a few times, and also pointed out that he was confusing hell the intermediary state. What more can I do?

Geoff,

The question is about God's presence in hell not about it's timing.

[geoff]

freak, concentrate on the debate...

for a start, just dont day "blah blah" - say WHY... try proving you are right instead of asserting it... then you can make me look bad and everyone can have a laugh.. and life will be so much simpler...

[Freak]

Yesterday @ 11:44 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
geoff:

freak, concentrate on the debate...

for a start, just dont day "blah blah" - say WHY... try proving you are right instead of asserting it... then you can make me look bad and everyone can have a laugh.. and life will be so much simpler...

I have given you the reason why I believe God is present in hell but for some odd reason you keep on avoiding the debate topic. This debate is not about whether hell is present or future it's about whether God will be present.

[o2bwise]

Hi Geoff,

I dont see what this really has to do with the topic, which is "is God present in hell"

Well, I beg to differ. I offered that hell is the experience of the lost when subjected to the unveiled presence of God's love. I also showed how God's love is the unquenchable fire.

It is thus implied that God is "present."


Secondly, I would like to see scriptural support for "hell is the experience of the lost simply being in the unveiled present of God".

I thought I provided this. Jesus refers to the lost being cast into a furnace where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. He goes on to say the righteous shine as the sun. Same conversation, same context. Obviously, the sun is quite fiery.

Truth is extracted primarily via the means which the Bible provides, such as in Proverbs or Isaiah 28. It is the linkage of texts with common word and thematic usages that allws a picture to emerge.

Coupled with the Matthew text:
Isaiah 33:14-16
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil: 16 He will dwell on high; His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks; Bread will be given him, His water will be sure.

The above text asks who dwells in THE (not "a") everlasting burnings. I would expect an orthodox answer to be, "The lost dwell there, of course!"

Not so. The lost dwell there temporarily, the righteous, who shine as the sun, dwell there forever.


Consider these texts:
2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?


Galatians 4:1-9
1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born F12 of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?


Peter speaks of fire that melts elements. The Greek word rendered elements is in the Bible in ONLY these four renderings. I would not deny there is not a physical application, BUT, if one heeds the biblical counsel to compare spiritual with spiritual, etc., there is another rendering.

Galatians is all about a church that is deviating from the purity of the gospel and is thus in bondage. To what? Sin!

"Elements" in Galatians, is sin.

There is a fire that consumes SIN. It cannot be coincidence that Peter and Galatians use the very same Greek word (and it is used nowhere else in the scriptures). In the last days, Christ sends a fire. It consumes sin.

In the righteous, it consumes sin and the righteous survive because they let the sin leave their experience. In the lost, it consumes the sinner with the sin.

One, in an ultimate sense, suffers torment. The other group, in an ultimate sense, "shine as the sun." Same fire.

As Jesus said, in that Matthew text, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

The furnace texts are similar. Recall that Babylonians are destroyed in the same furnace the Israelites survive in. (Daniel 3 - and yes, this is a physical illustration, but certainly, it is frought with spiritual application.)

Consider also:
Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times.

Pr 17:3
The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold, But the Lord tests the hearts.

Pr 27:21
The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold, And a man is valued by what others say of him.

Look at what is says about the Lord TESTING the hearts.

1 Corinthians 4:5
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

1 Corinthians 3:11-13
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.


Consider also:
Psalm 22:14
I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me.

Ps 68:2
As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

The wicked perish before what? "The presence of God." But, I thought it was fire! Well, yeah, it is. God is love and fire is a metaphor for that love. That love reveals the counsels of the heart and if a heart is altogether evil, the heart will be destroyed.

Geoff, I could go on and on. THIS is precisely how truth is gleaned, how it is mined from the ore that is the word. I wonder if you are looking for some single explicit reference in order to satisfy your question.

If so, you are mandating a RECIPE that is something other than the biblical recipe given for deriving truth.

You need to chain texts together for this is how truth is unearthed.


According to Scripture, hell is quite clearly a lake of fire.

I think the above powerfully suggests otherwise. Such an interpretation can be made, only upon reliance to the surface of the word.


God Bless You,

Tony (o2)

[geoff]

Tony,

That was quite a long post, and I apologise for not having time to answer every part of it.

Well, I beg to differ. I offered that hell is the experience of the lost when subjected to the unveiled presence of God's love. I also showed how God's love is the unquenchable fire.

So, God's presence is Hell. Interesting. Of course, God loves to hang out with the wicked, and wants to eternally, so that His love can torment them forever and ever.

Jesus refers to the lost being cast into a furnace where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I imagine most people would wail and gnash their teeth when thrown into a fire. We have a Biblical example of this fire in relation to God's wrath, Sodom and Gomorrah. The flood is another example of how God deals with Sin, He destroys it.

This is all very much beside the point, and it has to do with the nature of hell and not Gods presence IN hell.

If you want to discuss the nature of hell, there are some threads devoted to it already.

Freak, I notice you changes your statement from "is God present in hell" to "whether God will be present".

That is very confusing, either God is present in Hell Now... or He isnt NOW, but will be later. They are 2 very different things.

[o2bwise]

Hi Geoff,

I don't think you are fully aware of my position.

1. I stated a few times already that hell is a TEMPORARY abode. (The lost do not live forever, they eventually perish.)

2. I did not mention this, but I believe there is no life after this death, which is called sleep. Not until the resurrection (bringing one from death to life) that is.

3. I have stated a few times the idea that physical representations have spiritual applications. I have already done this with fire.

4. I have shown, in detailed fashion, my view that the fire is God's love and that this is what shows a sinner his evil character. Thus, with my view, it is required that God is present.

Maybe could you read my posts again?

Maybe it's kind of like a paradigm shift and is so different from your understanding that you are having a hard time seeing what I am saying.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[geoff]

Tony;

1. Hell is generally defined as the "final resting place of the wicked" - this is a "standard theological viewpoint". This comes from Scriptures directly.
2. Soul sleep... interesting, but hard to prove.
3. Often they do, however, we are given a physical demonstration of what the "physical representation" is, so there can be no doubt.
4. "Fire" is used in this manner from time to time, however, not in the same way as it is used to describe hell

[Freak]

Geoff--

The debate never presumed a time of hell, the question was raised if God is present in hell (whenever hell might occur) and we see from Scripture He is present.

[o2bwise]

Hi Geoff,

There is no more I can say. You seem to require some explicit, literal declaration.

Isaiah 28:9-13
9 "Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts? 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little." 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people, 12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which You may cause the weary to rest," And, "This is the refreshing"; Yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.


Proverbs 2:1-9
1 My son, if you receive my words, And treasure my commands within you, 2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom, And apply your heart to understanding; 3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment, And lift up your voice for understanding, 4 If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God. 6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding; 7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk uprightly; 8 He guards the paths of justice, And preserves the way of His saints. 9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice, Equity and every good path.


1 Corinthians 2:13
These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Strong words, but it is study like the above that makes the position I contend to be apparent. One would never get it by taking any text in isolation and asserting any doctrine on the basis.

One may get it by stringing texts with common themes, words, imagery together. THEN (and only then) a picture emerges that is derived on an amount of evidence far more compelling and powerful than your physical, literalistic assertions.

With that, I suppose I am done...

Take Care and May God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[geoff]

Tony,

Contrary to your assumptions, I know what you are saying, its not new, I have studied it. However, it is not set in stone, so you should not be claiming it as fact. It isnt. I suggest you do some reading... you will find on just what shakey ground you are standing... or better, talk to "theonomy" who is some what of an expert on these matters (far more than I). I am sure he would be glad to, he is a fun guy :hrm:

I really hope you posted those last 3 verses to try and "convict" me of something... because, as Jesus said, first remove the plank from your own eye... then try and find the speck in mine.

[George Blaisdell]

Freak:

"The... question was raised if God is present in hell... and we see from Scripture He is present."

Indeed so... And even the question itself is Biblical...

Dost Thou work wonders for the dead? Do the shades rise up to praise Thee? Are Thy wonders known in the darkness, or Thy saving help in the land of forgetfulness?

But I, O Lord, cry to Thee.
My prayer comes before Thee.

geo

[dizzle]

The debate is now over and this thread is open for the debate participants.

[geoff]

OOps :bonk:

[DBoone]

The Bible says that the smoke in the lake of fire of their burning goes up forever. Revelations something:something.

Jesus gives the parable of the rich man and Lazarus where He describes the rich man burning and asking for a drop of water on his tongue. If he knew it was just the burn of despair in his psyche he wouldn't be asking for water.

[geoff]

DBoone,

Yes, its an Eternal Punishment. The 'smoke' is symbolic. It doesnt mean "Actual" smoke.

Lazarus and the Richman is a parable, not a doctrinal statement on the nature of hell. In fact, its not meant to "describe" hell, but to show the eternal consequence of ones actions, and how it is irreversable.