Will Catholics go to hell???

[LovingTheist]

Now I found this article from a site that claims to be Baptist but obviously is parody and makes fun of Christianity. If you trim all the insults and mockery towards the Catholic church, is any of what is said in this article about the Catholics going against the word of God true? Here is the article from LandoverBaptist.org (please remember that I do not support this kind of trash talk and I am only looking for people's opinions on this) Anyone can call himself a Christian, but that doesn’t make it so. Anyone can quote the Bible, but that doesn’t make him saved. Anyone can build a giant, elaborate cathedral, with stained glass windows and ornate sculptures, but that doesn’t make him Heaven-bound. Friends, the number of Hell-bound heathens claiming to believe in Jesus is countless. They go by names like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Moonies and Branch Davidians. No matter the name, they will roast on a spit above Satan’s hot coals for eternity while we sip Rothschild’s finest with our Savior in Heaven. But perhaps the most dangerous cult, whose members will be the first plunged into Lucifer’s fiery abyss, is also one of the most popular. I am, of course, referring to the Catholics.



Catholics claim to be Christians despite the fact that much of what they believe constitutes the essence of blasphemy. They spit in Jesus’ face every time they hold mass, yet many saved Christians still believe Catholics will be ascending to Heaven with us. How could our colleagues be fooled by a religion that is so obviously anti-Christian? They assume that, because the Catholics have millions of followers worldwide, they must believe something right. Well, let me tell you something – popularity means nothing. Sixty million Americans eat Spam but that hardly makes it good.

The ways in which Catholics defy God’s word are too numerous to describe in this sermon. So let me just focus on a few. First, they worship mortals, something God expressly admonished against. Catholics claim to love Jesus and claim to believe in the Holy Trinity. But they don’t limit their worship to God, as the Bible demands (Exodus 20:3). Instead, they pray to mere mortals – Mary, Joseph and the so-called “saints” – humans, whom they have made gods in their own right. Humans, who they believe can perform the miracles of our Savior. I once saw a Catholic woman praying beside her car in a mall parking lot. When I asked her if she was praying to the Lord, she said, “no,” she was praying to Saint Anthony to help her find her car keys.

This is idolatry, pure and simple. The Bible orders us not to pray to dead men (Psalms 106:28), and Jesus instructs us not to pray to angels (Colossians 2:18). We are to have one God, and one God alone. The Catholics actually worship a woman! Mary, the woman who was selected at random to serve as the incubator for Christ. There are actually documents written by popes that say Mary, a mortal female, is the key to salvation. Blasphemy doesn’t get more blatant than that.

But the Catholics don’t stop there. They actually bow before and pray to statues – graven images not only of God but of these mortals they (not God) have declared to be saints. Bowing to images is the essence of idolatry (Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 5;9; Isaiah 44:17; Daniel 3:5, 10, 15), even if the image is of God (Exodus 32:4-6 with Psalms 106:19-20). What happens to those who practice idolatry? They never enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

There are numerous other Catholic beliefs that run afoul of God’s word. The Catholics believe some people neither go to Heaven nor Hell, but instead wind up in an imaginary fantasyland they call “purgatory” (even though there is no such place described in the Bible). The Catholics believe we cannot confess our sins to God directly, but instead have to recite them to a pedophile intermediary, despite the fact that the Bible never suggests this. They think, in order to be forgiven of sin, we have to recite rote prayers over and over (like some elementary school kid ordered to write, “I will not talk in class” 100 times on the blackboard), even though such nonsense finds no support in the Bible. They baptize babies before they know the difference between Jesus and Pampers. Even worse, they reject the Bible in favor of the statements of some nelly queen in a dress and a Madonna bosom-cup hat, believing anything that idol says while in the cathedral comes from God. That is blasphemy if the term has any meaning! And worst of all, they don’t believe one must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

The bottom line is that the Catholic church is nothing more than a cult that happened to catch on. Granted, the pope has a greater following than Jim Jones did, but the distinction ends there. One need only watch an altar boy walk bowlegged from a priest’s chambers to recognize theirs is hardly the “true faith.” Homosexuality is not merely something the Catholics have overlooked and ignored. It is something they have actively promoted (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0100/investigation.html). And if all of that isn’t enough to convince you of the truth, bear in mind that Catholics claim to have seen visions of the face of Mary bleeding on objects ranging from an adobe wall to a bowel movement (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0400/briefs.html). They might as well be Elvis-spotters. And for all the good the pomp and circumstance of their services will do them, the Catholics might as well just sacrifice pets on their front lawns. That would give them the same shot at Heaven -- none. So say “farewell,” “goodbye,” “hope the heat doesn’t get to you” to all your Catholic friends. For one thing is certain. There is no room in Heaven for Mary-loving, incense-burning, Pope-adoring, candle-lighting, apparition-seeing, statue-slobbering, ring-kissing, wafer-eating, stained glass-loving, altar-boy banging, mackarel-snapping idol-worshipers!

[LovingTheist]

* Remember only what is in bold is from me!!

[VFarris01]

Not all Catholics will go to Hell... only the ones who practice Catholicism instead of the Christianity taught in the Bible.

[anthrogirl]

Isn't it God's job to decide who goes to hell...?

I simply cannot claim to hold the answers.

anthrogirl

[Em7add11]

Landover Baptist is a parody site run by atheists.

[anthrogirl]

Oh, is the OP from Landover Baptist? It's a pretty darn funny site--and dead on when it comes to parodying fudie Baptist thought (I grew up in this sad paradigm).

[LovingTheist]

Landover Baptist is a parody site run by atheists. I know.

[LovingTheist]

Isn't it God's job to decide who goes to hell...?

I simply cannot claim to hold the answers.

anthrogirl Just asking for opinions.

[Jude3b]

Only the saved go to heaven. If a Roman Catholic gets born-again; if they know Christ and receives Him as their personal Lord and Savior - they will go to heaven. The unsaved Roman Catholic, just like the unsaved from any religion - will end up in Hell. Anyone rejecting the love of Christ - ends up in hell.

[LovingTheist]

Only the saved go to heaven. If a Roman Catholic gets born-again; if they know Christ and receives Him as their personal Lord and Savior - they will go to heaven. The unsaved Roman Catholic, just like the unsaved from any religion - will end up in Hell. Anyone rejecting the love of Christ - ends up in hell. So you think all Catholics are saved ? Its pretty obvious that Catholics accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sins. So you think all denominations are saved ?

[LovingTheist]

I really dont care about this topic to be honest. Im just trying to get up to 25 posts so I can have an avatar. :lol:

[Jude3b]

So you think all Catholics are saved ? Its pretty obvious that Catholics accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sins. So you think all denominations are saved ?

A religion cannot get saved. Only people can be saved. Obviously not all Catholics are saved and certainly not all religious people in denominations are saved. Obviously you have not read any of my previous posts on Romanism and Denominationalism.

Many Roman Catholics and likewise an awful lot of religionists do not in fact accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sins. That is why so many religious people, Roman Catholics included are trying to earn salvation or trying to keep it by sacramentalism and other religious works. If they were truly believing "the Gospel" - they would not be trying to "earn" salvation by their works.

[LovingTheist]

A religion cannot get saved. Only people can be saved. Obviously not all Catholics are saved and certainly not all religious people in denominations are saved. Obviously you have not read any of my previous posts on Romanism and Denominationalism.

Many Roman Catholics and likewise an awful lot of religionists do not in fact accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sins. That is why so many religious people, Roman Catholics included are trying to earn salvation or trying to keep it by sacramentalism and other religious works. If they were truly believing "the Gospel" - they would not be trying to "earn" salvation by their works. Uhh, I have never met a Catholic that did not believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins. You are saying that believing it is not that same as accepting it? I never said a religion can save people. I basically knew all the answers to the questions I asked in this thread in advance. As I have said I had a hidden motive in this to up my posts and this is not a particular area I am interested in.

[anthrogirl]

Uhh, I have never met a Catholic that did not believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins. You are saying that believing it is not that same as accepting it? I never said a religion can save people. I basically knew all the answers to the questions I asked in this thread in advance. As I have said I had a hidden motive in this to up my posts and this is not a particular area I am interested in.
Hidden motive? How juicy! Do share!

anthrogirl

[billy_pilgrim]

Not all Catholics will go to Hell... only the ones who practice Catholicism instead of the Christianity taught in the Bible.
Since the Landover site is apparently a parody website, I won't address that article. I do think the above comment is worthy of being addressed, though. I'm glad some other people in this thread took up for Catholics, too. I converted to Catholicism in college after a period of Fundamentalism as a child, followed by a period of Atheism as a young adult. I was "born again" at the age of nine or ten, but I do not consider that the seminal event in my spiritual life. The way it occurred was dubious, for one thing. I regularly attended a fundamentalist church with my Grandmother, and one Wednesday night the church brought in a group of travelling performers to act out the Book of Revelation. I remember the pastor saying to the congregation that he didn't like frightening people to be born again, but sometimes fear was the only thing that worked. For a young kid, it was indeed a pretty scary performance. Afterwards, I went to the front, the pastor came to me and had me recite a prayer (I thought us Catholics were the only ones who recite rote prayers? Hmmm...). That's how I came to be born again. I consider myself to have been born again AGAIN when I began attending RCIA meetings every Thursday during college, which eventually led to my acceptance into the Roman Catholic Church at Easter in 1998. My beliefs as a Catholic are Christian beliefs. I don't know what you think you know about Catholics, but you and I believe in and are dedicated to the same God.

[elysian]

I was raised Roman Catholic- and didn't move terribly far from that interpretation- I'm Lutheran. And yes there are Catholics who have found and continue to find salvation in Christ, just as there are Baptists and Methodists and Pentecostals and Lutherans and non-denominational people who have found salvation in Christ.

The Lutheran understanding of salvation is very similar to the Catholic understanding of salvation. We don't believe you recite a "sinner's prayer" and bingo- you're saved- you can sin all you want and do what you want, because you said "I believe in Jesus." A person who believes in Jesus will follow Him and will surrender to His will not out of "duty" or in attempt to "earn" brownie points or "buy" salvation but as a response to His grace and love for us. (you will know them by their fruits) We do believe salvation is a process that begins with Baptism, when we are named and claimed as children of God. As we grow in faith and grace and are conformed to God's will and purpose (see Romans 12:1-2) we are transformed. Jesus "cleans us up" from the inside out, so that our actions and life are a reflection upon Him. Jesus not only claims us, but He causes us to become more like Him as we follow Him as His disciples.

Yes Roman Catholics can be saved!

If you are saved it is entirely to God's credit (the Holy Spirit speaks to the heart and leads us to salvation, it is God's free gift)

If you are damned it is entirely your own fault (the one sin that is not forgiven is rejecting the Holy Spirit- the person who says in his/her heart "there is no God" despite evidence to the contrary, the person who sees no need to repent, is the person who condemns him/herself to damnation)

[Jude3b]

Since the Landover site is apparently a parody website, I won't address that article. I do think the above comment is worthy of being addressed, though. I'm glad some other people in this thread took up for Catholics, too. I converted to Catholicism in college after a period of Fundamentalism as a child, followed by a period of Atheism as a young adult. I was "born again" at the age of nine or ten, but I do not consider that the seminal event in my spiritual life. The way it occurred was dubious, for one thing. I regularly attended a fundamentalist church with my Grandmother, and one Wednesday night the church brought in a group of travelling performers to act out the Book of Revelation. I remember the pastor saying to the congregation that he didn't like frightening people to be born again, but sometimes fear was the only thing that worked. For a young kid, it was indeed a pretty scary performance. Afterwards, I went to the front, the pastor came to me and had me recite a prayer (I thought us Catholics were the only ones who recite rote prayers? Hmmm...). That's how I came to be born again. I consider myself to have been born again AGAIN when I began attending RCIA meetings every Thursday during college, which eventually led to my acceptance into the Roman Catholic Church at Easter in 1998. My beliefs as a Catholic are Christian beliefs. I don't know what you think you know about Catholics, but you and I believe in and are dedicated to the same God.

Please my dear Roman Catholic friend, tell me, if you died today are you sure you would go to heaven?

[anthrogirl]

This is getting ugly.

[Jude3b]

This is getting ugly.

How about you anthrogirl, would you go to heaven if you died today?

[LovingTheist]

Oh look what I started...

[Christy]

Isn't it God's job to decide who goes to hell...?

I simply cannot claim to hold the answers.

anthrogirl


:thumb: Good answer

[adpierce]

Alright, well I used to be a Lutheran, and then was Pentacostal, now I'm Baptist, so I've been all over the place doctrinally. I think that anybody who truly believes the Catholic Doctrine cannot in fact enter Heaven. Only God knows if that is true though. Because I do in some aspects believe some of the article from landover baptist, although I hate the site because it really misrepresents us baptists. First of all God is a Jealous God, if you pray to anybody or anything besides God, that's not good. It's idolatry.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The bible is clear that you can repent of these things and be sanctified by Christ, but the fruits of a unregenerate soul are clear, and idolatry is one of them.

Also their view on Justification is a big point of debate with me. I do not believe that you can earn your way into heaven. All have fallen short the bible says, and God's holiness is a thing that is unattainable by mankind, we have sin that deserves judgement. Good thing that God has had grace on us and the judgement that should have been poured out on man was poured out on Christ, so that whoever should believe in Him can have eternal life.

[anthrogirl]

How about you anthrogirl, would you go to heaven if you died today?
Maybe, maybe not--I have no idea.

anthrogirl

[Search'n Urchin]

The only people who will go to hell are those who teach that there are people who go to hell.:teeth:

[billy_pilgrim]

Please my dear Roman Catholic friend, tell me, if you died today are you sure you would go to heaven?
You know, that's ultimately for God to judge (not you or anyone else). But I think I've got just as good a shot at getting there as you.

[billy_pilgrim]

The bible is clear that you can repent of these things and be sanctified by Christ, but the fruits of a unregenerate soul are clear, and idolatry is one of them.

Also their view on Justification is a big point of debate with me. I do not believe that you can earn your way into heaven. All have fallen short the bible says, and God's holiness is a thing that is unattainable by mankind, we have sin that deserves judgement. Good thing that God has had grace on us and the judgement that should have been poured out on man was poured out on Christ, so that whoever should believe in Him can have eternal life. I'm not going to debate with you on justification. I don't even know whether to drag out this thread any longer, but you seem like a reasonable person. Catholics don't believe you can earn your way into Heaven either. Charity is a Christian virtue, and we practice it, same as other Christians. On the idolatry issue ... I don't think God had Christians in mind when he inveighed against "idolaters." And Catholics are Christians. We do worship Christ, even when we kneel before an icon of Him. The Catholic encyclopedia defines "idolatry" as "divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God." Christians from Thomas Aquinas to Thomas Merton have knelt before images of Christ and prayed to Him (not to the image of Him). Would you really damn so many?

Again, from the Catholic encyclopedia:

"An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practised in the Catholic Church, viz., that while the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows "that in images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped, that no petitions can be addressed to them, and that no trust is to be placed in them. . . that the honour which is given to them is referred to the objects (prototypa) which they represent, so that through the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover our heads and kneel, we adore Christ and venerate the Saints whose likenesses they are" (Conc. find., Sess. XXV, "de invocatione Sanctorum")."

I know you're going to bring up the issue of the Saints next. Let's try to head some of that off by pointing out the text above does not say "adore" the saints or "worship" the saints. It says "venerate the saints," the way you would venerate a wise ancestor. Some Catholics do pray to Saints, though I think the practice generally is not as prevalent as it once was. Maybe among older Catholics, or Catholics from old countries like France, Spain. I don't pray to Saints. But I don't necessarily consider anything wrong with it. I've heard my Grandmother hold one way conversations wiht my dead Grandfather. It's a bit superstitious in my opinion (especially when she asks him to help her win the lottery:lol:), but I don't think it damns a soul to hell.

[Jude3b]

:thumb: Good answer


Do you want to live your whole life and never know if your going to hell or heaven until you die?

God says in His Word that you can know for sure one way or the other? Would seem to me that is the most important question anyone could ever settle!

Please don't let religion and religious people confuse you. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." (I Cor. 14:33)

God made His Word simple because He is: "... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

[Jude3b]

I'm not going to debate with you on justification. I don't even know whether to drag out this thread any longer, but you seem like a reasonable person. Catholics don't believe you can earn your way into Heaven either. Charity is a Christian virtue, and we practice it, same as other Christians. On the idolatry issue ... I don't think God had Christians in mind when he inveighed against "idolaters." And Catholics are Christians. We do worship Christ, even when we kneel before an icon of Him. The Catholic encyclopedia defines "idolatry" as "divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God." Christians from Thomas Aquinas to Thomas Merton have knelt before images of Christ and prayed to Him (not to the image of Him). Would you really damn so many?

Again, from the Catholic encyclopedia:

"An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practised in the Catholic Church, viz., that while the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows "that in images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped, that no petitions can be addressed to them, and that no trust is to be placed in them. . . that the honour which is given to them is referred to the objects (prototypa) which they represent, so that through the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover our heads and kneel, we adore Christ and venerate the Saints whose likenesses they are" (Conc. find., Sess. XXV, "de invocatione Sanctorum")."

I know you're going to bring up the issue of the Saints next. Let's try to head some of that off by pointing out the text above does not say "adore" the saints or "worship" the saints. It says "venerate the saints," the way you would venerate a wise ancestor. Some Catholics do pray to Saints, though I think the practice generally is not as prevalent as it once was. Maybe among older Catholics, or Catholics from old countries like France, Spain. I don't pray to Saints. But I don't necessarily consider anything wrong with it. I've heard my Grandmother hold one way conversations wiht my dead Grandfather. It's a bit superstitious in my opinion (especially when she asks him to help her win the lottery:lol:), but I don't think it damns a soul to hell.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:4)

The Bible concludes that those who make or have statures have been corrupted:
"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves... Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female...." (Deut. 4:15-16)

[billy_pilgrim]

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:4)

The Bible concludes that those who make or have statures have been corrupted:
"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves... Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female...." (Deut. 4:15-16)
Well, that pretty much precludes any sculpture at all, now doesn't it. Better toss out your Hummels, Jude3b.

[VFarris01]

Well, that pretty much precludes any sculpture at all, now doesn't it. Better toss out your Hummels, Jude3b.(3) You shall not have any other gods before Me. (4) You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth; (5) you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me; (6) and doing kindness to thousands, to those loving Me, and to those keeping My commandments.
The difference between J3b's Hummels and statues used by the RCC lies in v5.

[billy_pilgrim]

(3) You shall not have any other gods before Me. (4) You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth; (5) you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me; (6) and doing kindness to thousands, to those loving Me, and to those keeping My commandments.
The difference between J3b's Hummels and statues used by the RCC lies in v5.

How many times, how many ways do I have to say this? We don't worship the statues and art works. The simple act of kneeling before a statue or icon, a likeness of God, does not constitute bowing down before an idol, unless you think Christ is a false god. Think about the implications of what you are saying: millions upon millions of Christians from the early days of the church to the present, likely damned. Christians were creating icons and representations of Christ as far as back as the third century, at least.

[VFarris01]

How many times, how many ways do I have to say this? We don't worship the statues and art works. The simple act of kneeling before a statue or icon, a likeness of God, does not constitute bowing down before an idol, unless you think Christ is a false god. Think about the implications of what you are saying: millions upon millions of Christians from the early days of the church to the present, likely damned. Christians were creating icons and representations of Christ as far as back as the third century, at least.How many times, how many ways does God have to say this?

(5) you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them;
RCs do worship statues and art work. The simple act of kneeling before a statue or icon, a likeness of God (RCs know what God looks like?), does constitute bowing down before an idol (see Exodus 20:5), unless you don't think God is a jealous God (see again Exodus 20:5). Think about the implications of what I am saying; million upon million of RCs from the early days of the RCC to the present are damned as are Christians from the third century on who violated Exodus 20:5.

[VFarris01]

Roman Catholics are in denial. What they say and what they do are in contradiction.

(1) You shall not make idols to yourselves; and you shall not set up for yourselves graven images, or a memorial pillar. And you shall not place any stone image in your land, to bow yourselves to it; for I am Jehovah your God.
(15) Therefore you shall carefully watch over your souls, for you have not seen any likeness in the day Jehovah spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire, (16) that you not deal corruptly, and make for yourselves a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female, (17) the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens; (18) the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth; (19) and that you not lift up your eyes towards the heavens and shall see the sun, and the heavens, and you be drawn away and worship them, and serve them; which Jehovah your God has allotted to all the peoples under all the heavens.
(23) Be on guard for yourselves, that you not forget the covenant of Jehovah your God, which He has made with you, and make to yourselves a graven image, a likeness of anything which Jehovah your God has forbidden you. (24) For Jehovah your God is a consuming fire; He is a jealous God. (25) When you father sons and son's sons, and you have been long in the land, and have dealt corruptly, and have made a graven image, a likeness of anything, and have done evil in the sight of Jehovah your God, to provoke Him to anger; (26) I call the heavens and the earth to witness against you today that you shall soon utterly perish from off the land to which you go over the Jordan to possess it; you shall not prolong your days on it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
(8) You shall not make a graven image for you, any likeness of anything in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, and in the waters from under the earth. (9) You shall not bow yourself to them nor serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, and on the third, and on the fourth generation of those that hate Me, (10) and doing kindness to thousands of those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(22) You shall not raise up for yourself any standing image, which Jehovah your God detests.
(15) Cursed is the man who makes a carved and molten image, an abomination to Jehovah, the work of a craftsman's hands, and who sets it up in a secret place! And all the people shall answer and say, Amen!
(1) Manasseh was a son of twelve years when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty five years in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother was Hephzibah. (2) And he did the evil in the eyes of Jehovah, according to the idolatries of the nations that Jehovah expelled from before the sons of Israel. (3) And he built again the high places that his father Hezekiah had destroyed, and raised up altars for Baal, and made an Asherah, as did Ahab the king of Israel, and worshiped all the host of the heavens, and served them. (4) And he built altars in the house of Jehovah, of which Jehovah had said, In Jerusalem I will put My name. (5) And he built altars for all the host of the heavens in the two courts of Jehovah's house. (6) And he made his son to pass through the fire, used magic, and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spirit-knowers. He expanded to work the evil in the eyes of Jehovah, to provoke Him to anger. (7) And he set a graven image of the Asherah that he had made in the house of which Jehovah had said to David and to his son Solomon, In this house, and in Jerusalem, that I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, I will put My name forever. (8) And I will not again make the feet of Israel wander any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they observe to do all that I commanded them, and to all the Law that My servant Moses commanded them. (9) But they did not listen, and Manasseh caused them to be led astray above the nations that Jehovah had destroyed from before the sons of Israel. (10) And Jehovah spoke by His servants the prophets, saying, (11) Because Manasseh the king of Judah has done these abominations, doing more wickedly than all that the Amorites did before him, and has made Judah also to sin with his idols, (12) therefore so says Jehovah, the God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing evil on Jerusalem and Judah, so that whoever hears of it, his two ears shall tingle. (13) And I will stretch out over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab, and shall wipe Jerusalem as one wipes a dish (he wipes and turns it on its face). (14) And I will forsake the remnant of My inheritance, and give them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall be for a prey and for a spoil to all their enemies, (15) because they have done evil in My eyes, and have provoked Me to anger from the day their fathers came out of Egypt, even to this day. (16) And also Manasseh has shed very much innocent blood, till he has filled Jerusalem from mouth to mouth; apart from his sin that he caused Judah to sin, to do evil in the eyes of Jehovah. (17) And the rest of the acts of Manasseh, and all that he did, and his sin that he sinned, are they not written in the Book of the Matters of the Days of the Kings of Judah? (18) And Manasseh lay with his fathers, and was buried in the garden of his house in the Garden of Uzza. And his son Amon reigned in his place.
(6) So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts: I am the First, and I am the Last; and there is no God except Me. (7) And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare this, and set it in order before Me, since I placed the people of old? And as to things to come, even which shall come, let them declare concerning them. (8) Do not dread, nor be afraid. Have I not declared and made you hear since then? So you are My witnesses: Is there a God besides Me? Yea, there is none. I have not known a Rock. (9) Those who form a carved image are all of them vanity. And their delights do not profit; and they are their own witnesses. They do not see, nor know, that they may be ashamed. (10) Who has formed a god, or poured out an image to no profit? (11) Behold, all his companions shall be ashamed; and the craftsmen, they are from men. They shall assemble, all of them shall stand; they shall dread; they shall be shamed together. (12) He carves iron with a tool; he works in the coals and forms it with hammers, and works it with his powerful arm; then he is hungry, and has no strength; he drinks no water and is weary. (13) He fashions wood, and stretches a line; he marks it with a stylus; he shapes it with a carving tool, and he marks it with a compass. And he makes it according to the figure of a man, as the beauty of a man, to sit in the house. (14) He cuts down cedars and takes cypress and oak, and he makes the trees of the forest strong for him. He plants a tree, and rain makes it grow. (15) And it shall be for a man to burn; yea, he takes of them and is warmed; and he kindles it and bakes bread. Yea, he makes a god and worships; he makes a carved image and bows to it. (16) He burns half of it in the fire; he eats flesh on half of it; he roasts roast, and is satisfied. Then he warms himself and says, Ah, I am warm; I have seen the fire. (17) And he makes a god of the rest, his carved image; he bows to it and worships, and prays to it, and says, Deliver me, for you are my god.
(14) Every man is stupid from lack of knowledge; every refiner is put to shame by the carved image. For his molten image is a lie and no breath is in them. (15) They are vanity, the work of delusion. In the time of their judgment they shall perish. (See also Jeremiah 51:16-18)
(18) What does an image profit, for its maker has carved it; a molten image, and a teacher of falsehood? For does the maker trust in his work on it, to make mute idols? (19) Woe to him who says to the wood, Awake! To a mute stone, Rise up, it shall teach! Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, but no breath is in its midst.
(22) Professing to be wise, they became foolish (23) and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. (24) Because of this, God gave them up to impurity in the lusts of their hearts, their bodies to be dishonored among themselves, (25) who changed the truth of God into the lie, and worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
(16) All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (17) so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.

Which are we to follow; RC traditions or "God-breathed" Scripture?

[Jude3b]

Well, that pretty much precludes any sculpture at all, now doesn't it. Better toss out your Hummels, Jude3b.

God hates idolatry:

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a bother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an IDOLATER... with such an one no not to eat." (I Cor. 5:11)

God declares that idolaters will not enter heaven.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an IDOLATER, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." (Ephesians 5:5).

Maybe, you should consider fleeing idolatry, instead of making jokes about Hummels!

[Ramonda]

God hates idolatry:

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a bother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an IDOLATER... with such an one no not to eat." (I Cor. 5:11)

God declares that idolaters will not enter heaven.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an IDOLATER, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." (Ephesians 5:5).

Maybe, you should consider fleeing idolatry, instead of making jokes about Hummels!

Why wouldn't the bible book be considered idolatry? On some the word Holy appears on the cover.

[billy_pilgrim]

Why wouldn't the bible book be considered idolatry? On some the word Holy appears on the cover.

Hi Ramonda. You might as well let it go. I made the mistake of rerring to one of these people as "reasonable." There is no reasoning with them; there is not even any way to debate them. They'll just quote some more scripture at you and tell you you're going to hell.

[Jude3b]

Why wouldn't the bible book be considered idolatry? On some the word Holy appears on the cover.

The Bible cannot be considered idolatry because it is true!

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." (Psalm 119:160)

"The words of the Lord are pure words; as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (Psalm 12:6-7).

Might I ask you Ramonda, what is your final authority? Are you a person of faith? Are you a Christian?

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:5-6)

[VFarris01]

Why wouldn't the bible book be considered idolatry? On some the word Holy appears on the cover.Hi Ramonda. You might as well let it go. I made the mistake of rerring to one of these people as "reasonable." There is no reasoning with them; there is not even any way to debate them. They'll just quote some more scripture at you and tell you you're going to hell.I am sorry you feel the truth is unreasonable, bp. Which is more reasonable, the "God-breathed" word of God or "man-breathed" RC tradition?

As far as "debate" goes, why not use Scripture to support one's beliefs? I cannot tell anyone they are "going to hell," that is something up to God. I can tell them what they do is contrary to the Word of God and the word of God says certain acts are "abominations" and "worthy" of hell.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an IDOLATER, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

But hey, it is only God's word.

Ramonda, the Bible does not fit the description of an idol. To use something bp hates:

(16) a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female, (17) the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens; (18) the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth.

[Ramonda]

The Bible cannot be considered idolatry because it is true!

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." (Psalm 119:160)

"The words of the Lord are pure words; as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (Psalm 12:6-7).


You say it is true. How do you know? You give evidence as quotes from the book itself. That is my point. We can interpret the bible in many different ways to where different people will give different meanings. "Elmer Gantry" quoted the bible referencing why idols fit only his criteria. Here is a similar quote from the bible that disagrees with his.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:"

Note where that quote disagrees with his and says "any likeness of any thing"?

The bible is a book of words and has a shape and likeness to a book. Yet it is called holy by many, God's only word by many, sworn on by many, revered by many, and by some given a special place in their homes where they may gaze on that book in a worshipful manner.

That is idolization.



Might I ask you Ramonda, what is your final authority? Are you a person of faith? Are you a Christian?


My final authority concerning the bible would be the same as yours, interpretation of the book itself. Naturally we are interpreting interpretations of others.

I am a person who has experienced God in my life so faith isn't what I would use to describe myself other than the faith that I still have more to learn and experience. I was raised Catholic but as I leaned towards mostly what Jesus represents to me, I left organized religion because I no longer wanted other people's interpretations of God when we are all fully capable of receiving our own with the holy spirit.

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:5-6)

Again, that quote has to be questioned based on other areas in the same book. I do not mean to suggest that you and others cannot believe the bible as you do, but anybody that states that anybody is going to hell based on a few quotes is contradicting the book elsewhere. There is an assumption that Catholics are commiting idolatry. I was never confused about pictures and statues being just pictures and statues and had nothing to do with God. So for anyone to say for another that they are breaking a commandment would be for that person to say that they are God because they can read the heart and mind of millions of individuals? To me that is why Jesus said to remove our own beams before we worry about the speck in the other person's eyes.

Ultimately my final authority is the last judgement. I prefer letting God be the decider and live harmoniously with my fellow being no matter what their belief system is.

[VFarris01]

You say it is true. How do you know? You give evidence as quotes from the book itself. That is my point. We can interpret the bible in many different ways to where different people will give different meanings. "Elmer Gantry" quoted the bible referencing why idols fit only his criteria. Here is a similar quote from the bible that disagrees with his.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:"

Note where that quote disagrees with his and says "any likeness of any thing"?

The bible is a book of words and has a shape and likeness to a book. Yet it is called holy by many, God's only word by many, sworn on by many, revered by many, and by some given a special place in their homes where they may gaze on that book in a worshipful manner.

That is idolization.First, thank you for recognizing Mr. Lancaster's Oscar winning character.

Second, I "agree" with your sentiment the Bible can be "interpreted" many different ways. The problem is there are people who will do what you did with verses like:

(3) You shall not have any other gods before Me. (4) You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth; (5) you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me; (6) and doing kindness to thousands, to those loving Me, and to those keeping My commandments.

and:

(8) You shall not make a graven image for you, any likeness of anything in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, and in the waters from under the earth. (9) You shall not bow yourself to them nor serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, and on the third, and on the fourth generation of those that hate Me, (10) and doing kindness to thousands of those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Certainly the verses can be taken to mean anything. However, the problem lies in not taking the Bible as a whole. The Bible defines what "anything" is:

(16) a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female, (17) the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens; (18) the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth.

The definition then of "anything" is not the Bible (unless possibly you write it on something described in the above passage).

The Bible "stands alone" if we use all of it instead of just "parts."

[Jude3b]

The clearest proof that the Bible is the Word of God is the fact that it transformed me and it continues to transform and regenerate the human character of millions of people worldwide.

The promises of salvation and deliverance contained in its pages are, to millions, proved to be a living reality.

How about you? Why not read the true book that reveals the true story about Jesus for yourself and make up you own mind about it?

Before you do, ask God to open your eyes, heart, and mind as you read.

You might just find the answers you're looking for to the questions that religion simply does not answer. Nearly every page of the Bible contains reasons to believe in Jesus and receive eternal life.

It is my hope that everyone who reads the Bible will recognize that Jesus is who He claims to be and will enjoy His free gift of life everlasting.

[Cephas]

Anyone who calls himself a Christian and sins unrepentantly in the eyes of God will go to hell. A Christian is not a Christian who is only one outwardly.

I still have much sin to get out of my system.

[Twilly Spree]

Billy's doing a great job here. Alot of you have terrible misconceptions about Catholicism.

[Jude3b]

So you think all Catholics are saved ? Its pretty obvious that Catholics accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sins. So you think all denominations are saved ?

It seems that you are asking me three questions:

First, "So you think all Catholics are saved? NO, I DO NOT!

Second, "Its pretty obvious that Catholics accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sins." Obvious to who and how?

It was not obvious to me as a Roman Catholic, including my service as an altar boy. I knew that Jesus died on the cross, but why was a mystery. The gospel was never clearly given to me, during my 27 years in Roman Catholicism. It was not until I heard Billy Graham preach and I heard the gospel and believed it and than was saved.

Since Rome teaches a system of religious works in the form of sacramentalism, I believe that many dear Catholics do not have a revelation of the simple good news of the Gospel. The good news that Jesus Christ went to the cross for us, in our place and we do not have to "earn" salvation by doing Romanism's Religious works.

Third, "So, I think all denominations are saved?" NO, DENOMINATIONS CANNOT BE SAVED. Only people can be saved. Every person has to accept or reject Jesus Christ. Those who receive Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior are saved. Those who refuse to believe On, and fully trust in Christ as their Lord and Savior are lost. There is only one way to heaven, that is by way of the cross, through Jesus Christ - our Lord and Savior.

Thank you for asking.

[Jawa Man]

First off, I am not Catholic. Second, I think you guys are treating the idols in Catholicism issue unfairly. When God gave the commandment to not worship idols, it seems clear (at least to me) that He was referring to the idols of the day. People actually worshipped the hunks of wood and metal. In Catholicism, the believer recognises the idol is only a representation of the greater thing.

Also, Catholics do not worship the saints (in the modern sense of the word). The word worship never used to only be applied to God. I believe in an Anglican... marriage thing... one of the vows was that the husband would worship the wife with his body. The definition of worship was different then, just like the word faith (nowadays, regarding religion, faith = belief, but faithfulness = loyalty. The word used to mean being loyal).

Another thing: when you pray to a saint, you're basically asking him to pray to God for you. Let's say I'm having trouble speaking to God, because maybe I sinned really bad or something. Then I go to my Pastor, who's spiritually more mature than I am, and I say, "Could you ask God to...blahblah?" Same stuff. You ask the saints to pray on your behalf since they are on a higher spiritual standing than you.

Let's go Catholics!

[Jude3b]

First off, I am not Catholic. Second, I think you guys are treating the idols in Catholicism issue unfairly. When God gave the commandment to not worship idols, it seems clear (at least to me) that He was referring to the idols of the day. People actually worshipped the hunks of wood and metal. In Catholicism, the believer recognises the idol is only a representation of the greater thing.

Also, Catholics do not worship the saints (in the modern sense of the word). The word worship never used to only be applied to God. I believe in an Anglican... marriage thing... one of the vows was that the husband would worship the wife with his body. The definition of worship was different then, just like the word faith (nowadays, regarding religion, faith = belief, but faithfulness = loyalty. The word used to mean being loyal).

Another thing: when you pray to a saint, you're basically asking him to pray to God for you. Let's say I'm having trouble speaking to God, because maybe I sinned really bad or something. Then I go to my Pastor, who's spiritually more mature than I am, and I say, "Could you ask God to...blahblah?" Same stuff. You ask the saints to pray on your behalf since they are on a higher spiritual standing than you.

Let's go Catholics!

Dear Jawa:

Please consider this fact- regardless of what Roman Catholic statues are intended to do, one thing is certain - they transgress God's instructions. When God gave the ten commandments, the second one was:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" (Exodus 20:4).

God also ordered:

"Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth." (Deut. 16:22) (see also Deut. 4:15-23).

Asking a living person on earth to agree with you in prayer, is not the same as praying before a statue to a dead Roman Catholic (so-called) saint.

[adpierce]

Prayer to the Dead

Deuteronomy 18
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Deuteronomy+18%3A10-12&x=7&y=9#footnote_206236450_1)] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD , and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

It even seems the bible condemns consulting the dead. The saints and mary are dead.

It is also is not as simple of a thing as just asking a friend to pray for you. It is very likely that when a catholic does a hail mary they might repeat that over and over again. Who when asking a friend for prayer would ask that person repeatedly? If you ask a friend for prayer it would be a shame if you didn't enter into prayer before God yourself. The benefit of asking a friend to pray for you is that they have the blessing of being able to pray for others. The benefit is theirs not yours.

[Jawa Man]

adpierce-

I'm just going to say I have no quotes from you here because tonight I just feel too lazy to click the quote tags. This is nothing against you. It's just a random moment I'm having.

Anyway, first we gotta ask ourselves, "Okay, so what kind of contact with the dead is God talking about here?" He's obviously not commanding the Israelites to avoid a Christian practice. He was telling them to avoid what the nations already in Israel did. So what we need to do is see what the local necromancers and all those types of dead-contacter peoples did back in Canaan.

Here's a good story about Saul that helps us see how they contacted the dead back then. 1 Samuel 28:1-19 tells the deal. Saul was in a big mess, so he decided to contact a medium for the dead, although he outlawed them. Now let's see what mediums actually did, and what contacting the dead actually was. Was it to honor a saint and ask for his prayers? It may include that (and in fact I've read that at least some Canaanites actually did ask the dead for prayers), but it seems to be more. Not only is Saul just making a request, but the role of the medium was to actually bring Samuel's spirit to Saul. Saul's intention was not just to make his request known (i.e. Samuel, please pray for me, that the Lord will show me what to do!, and then do a little bow of respect), but he actually came to the medium to bring Samuel to him and to hear his advice. So we see the role of mediums was to bring someone's spirit around for the purpose of talking to him, like a seance.

I think more evidence that seance-contacting was the actual sin can be found right after the Deutoronomy passage condemning contacting the dead. Deutoronomy 18:13 and on talks about how the other nations sinned by listening to these sorcerers, mediums, etc. So you could argue from this that the sin was to contact so you could listen, which relates to my seance thing.

Special help from catholic.com!

By the way, how do you think a doctrine as obviously heretical as this would creep its way into the tradition? We see plenty of examples of heresies being recorded. People wrote entire books on heresies back in the old days of the Church, even on the stupidest stuff. I think I read on tektonics that one Early Church writer condemned a group in his "book on heresies" as heretics for having a different view of astronomy! So why don't we see debates over this in the Church if one view is considered heresy? If we can't find these, I think it's safe to assume it was just always in the tradition and wasn't disputed. We've got too many examples of disputed doctrine from the Early Church to say a doctrine like this slipped through without conflict, in my opinion.

[adpierce]

The fact is Christ Himself condemned the Pharisee's for extra scriptural traditons that they had manufactured. I see your justification for prayers to the dead as not being heretical because it has been part of Catholic tradition doesn't have any validity. Man-made traditions are very susceptible to being heretical. The bible doen't support anywhere prayer to the dead, or communicating to the dead. The passage I quoted earlier shows that communcating to the dead was condmened. By the way if you're contacting the dead yourself, then you are the spiritist, or medium. Which is by no means better, even if you're not getting any response back. You also didn't address my concern about the way the prayer to the dead is performed. Chanting prayers over and over to a saint, or mary is nothing like asking a friend for prayer. Who when asking a friend would chant prayers over and over.

[Jawa Man]

The fact is Christ Himself condemned the Pharisee's for extra scriptural traditons that they had manufactured.
I don't think your interpretation of why Christ condemned them is correct, though I can see how you get it from where Christ addresses traditions of men. First off, though, Christ does not condemn extra scriptural traditions, just traditions of men (which He does not call synonomous). Second, the Catholics and Orthodox say that their traditions are not man-made, but were given by Christ to the apostles and passed down to this day. Third, Christ is not attacking having traditions, but following traditions that cause someone to break the Law. If traditions were not allowed, then all forms of culture and ethnic traditions around the world would need to be destroyed to fit in with Christ's message. Instead, Christ only says don't let tradition get in the way of doing what is right.

This passage is in Mark 7:6-16.
I see your justification for prayers to the dead as not being heretical because it has been part of Catholic tradition doesn't have any validity.
You don't really go against my argument in any way (so how can I respond to this?), though, except this...
Man-made traditions are very susceptible to being heretical.
Can you prove to me this is man-made, without saying, "It's not in the Bible"? For instance, according to the Bible alone, can I marry more than one wife? Can I find the Trinity actually described in the way it is believed by orthodox (note the lowercase o) Christians in the Bible? So you see not all things that even Protestants believe are in the Bible, so they might be heretical, too.
The bible doen't support anywhere prayer to the dead, or communicating to the dead.
I don't believe in sola scriptura, so this isn't a problem for me. And since the doctrine of sola scriptura isn't even in the Bible, there's no logical reason for believing it in the first place.

By the way, I'm aware Lutherans have a more tradition-friendly view of sola scriptura, so this isn't addressed to them.
By the way if you're contacting the dead yourself, then you are the spiritist, or medium.
When I ask Mary to pray for me, I don't ask her to come to me or summon up her spirit so we can talk together.
Which is by no means better, even if you're not getting any response back.
Why not?
You also didn't address my concern about the way the prayer to the dead is performed. Chanting prayers over and over to a saint, or mary is nothing like asking a friend for prayer. Who when asking a friend would chant prayers over and over.
True, I wouldn't say, "Pastor, pray for me, pray for me, pray for me..." But here's an example. You're a nice peasant boy living under a good king. You know you are a pretty law-breaking person, so you decide it would be better to find one of the king's lords or knights. You decide you will ask them to ask the king to have this thing accomplished for you, and since they are closer and more holy and law-abiding to the king, the king will be more motivated to respond. So you fall to the knees of a knight, and trying to show all humility, you say, "O Holy Sir Knight, have pity on me and ask the king for me! Please ask for me! Please ask for me!" You may keep repeating this in even different ways. But the point is you grovel to show yourself as pitiful as you can, so they'll have mercy on you.

Note this does not replace God, but helps when praying to him yourself. Prayers to saints aren't supposed to replace prayers to God, but help strengthen them. The prayers of a righteous man availeth much, so if I get the righteous of God to pray for me as well, my prayers will avail much more, since I myself am not righteous.

[Jude3b]

The fact is Christ Himself condemned the Pharisee's for extra scriptural traditons that they had manufactured. I see your justification for prayers to the dead as not being heretical because it has been part of Catholic tradition doesn't have any validity. Man-made traditions are very susceptible to being heretical. The bible doen't support anywhere prayer to the dead, or communicating to the dead. The passage I quoted earlier shows that communcating to the dead was condmened. By the way if you're contacting the dead yourself, then you are the spiritist, or medium. Which is by no means better, even if you're not getting any response back. You also didn't address my concern about the way the prayer to the dead is performed. Chanting prayers over and over to a saint, or mary is nothing like asking a friend for prayer. Who when asking a friend would chant prayers over and over.

Excellent points adpierce. Are you new to the theology Web? If yes, welcome aboard.

[Constantine]

RCs do worship statues and art work. The simple act of kneeling before a statue or icon, a likeness of God (RCs know what God looks like?), does constitute bowing down before an idol (see Exodus 20:5), unless you don't think God is a jealous God (see again Exodus 20:5). Think about the implications of what I am saying; million upon million of RCs from the early days of the RCC to the present are damned as are Christians from the third century on who violated Exodus 20:5.

So then when I salute the American flag, or show reverence for it at a flag ceremony or place my hand over my heart and say the Pledge of Allegiance I am guilty of idolatry and with me 250 million Americans are going straight to hell!

Jude3b, are you the guy who makes those annoying pamphlets the Pastor at a local Baptist church keeps handing out? Anyone can throw a few Bible verses around. See, even I a heathen idol worshiping Catholic can do it:

"‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’" (Matt. 7:21).

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (Rom. 2:13).

"So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead" (Jas. 2:17).

"But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . .Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? (Jas. 2:18-20).

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:24)

Oh yeah, I got more:

"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:44-45).

[Note: that one might not be in your Bible cause you guys threw out some of the books you didn't like]

"Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).

Just throwing verses around accomplishes nothing. Having some intelligence behind a point supported by some Bible verses is actually worth something.

According to you, ignorance is the worst sin. Because all those who have never had the chance to be "saved" because they are ignorant of Christianity are all damned to hell. Not because they did anything wrong but instead through no fault of their own they just haven't had the chance to hear the Gospel. How can you believe in a God who would send a Buddhist monk living in Tibet who spent all his life working for the poor to hell?

Your God is a jerk.

[Jude3b]

So then when I salute the American flag, or show reverence for it at a flag ceremony or place my hand over my heart and say the Pledge of Allegiance I am guilty of idolatry and with me 250 million Americans are going straight to hell!

Jude3b, are you the guy who makes those annoying pamphlets the Pastor at a local Baptist church keeps handing out? Anyone can throw a few Bible verses around. See, even I a heathen idol worshiping Catholic can do it:

"‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’" (Matt. 7:21).

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (Rom. 2:13).

"So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead" (Jas. 2:17).

"But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . .Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? (Jas. 2:18-20).

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:24)

Oh yeah, I got more:

"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:44-45).

[Note: that one might not be in your Bible cause you guys threw out some of the books you didn't like]

"Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).

Just throwing verses around accomplishes nothing. Having some intelligence behind a point supported by some Bible verses is actually worth something.

According to you, ignorance is the worst sin. Because all those who have never had the chance to be "saved" because they are ignorant of Christianity are all damned to hell. Not because they did anything wrong but instead through no fault of their own they just haven't had the chance to hear the Gospel. How can you believe in a God who would send a Buddhist monk living in Tibet who spent all his life working for the poor to hell?

Your God is a jerk.

Constantine: 1) I am not the printer who produces the tracts that they hand out at your local Baptist church. 2) Are you a Buddhist? 3) You state that "God is a jerk" - You are by far the real jerk! Who are you to be critical of God?

[Prakk]

Anyone that hasn't gone to mass SHOULD, and they should listen carefully to the creeds recited, and ask themselves, if someone really believes that, can they be unbelievers? I think the answer is self evident. I love my Catholic wife.

Hugh McBryde

[Constantine]

Constantine: 1) I am not the printer who produces the tracts that they hand out at your local Baptist church

My comment was half sarcasm though all the fundamentalist I encounter seem to use the same verse throwing technique you do.

Are you a Buddhist?

As I stated in my post and the cross on my name would suggest, I am Catholic.

You state that "God is a jerk" - You are by far the real jerk! Who are you to be critical of God?

No, I said your God was a jerk. I believe in the God of the Bible, in Jesus Christ. Not this guy you describe as throwing all non-fundies into hell.

Your God would send that Buddhist Monk to hell because he wasn't Christian even though he never had the chance to be and he was doing God's work anyway. Don't you think your theology must be flawed? How can an all merciful and loving God send a genuinely good person to hell? The answer is he doesn't, only evil people go to hell. Why can't you see that?

[Palinator]

I think that their salvation, as with any of us, comes down to having Christ as their savior. If they truly believe in Him and that their salvation is purely from the sacrifice of Jesus for us and not anything we did and have a relationship with Him as their Lord and Savior, then I thing that they will be saved. I think that is the important part, even if I don't agree with all of their teachings.

[aries_luv_ppl]

I agree with Jude3b (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/member.php?u=3053).

I think those who are saved are those who read the scriptures themselves and believe that the Bible is of the turth and only truth and entire Bible is the truth.

Church and Christians aren't perfect. But what make so many people don't believe in Christ is falsehood teaching by so call insitution of God, the church.

I mean church supposed to be a place for pastor or preist to shepherd God's sheep. But pastor is human. Sometimes they made mistake. That's why the only way to be saved is to read Bible itself, and look up related original meaning of word.

What I want to add is that we have to read Bible in context. I think Bible is both symbolic ( parable, etc ) and literal, but like I say, have to read within context.

Hmm... interesting you know the answer, so would you mind to share?

[Jude3b]

My comment was half sarcasm though all the fundamentalist I encounter seem to use the same verse throwing technique you do.



As I stated in my post and the cross on my name would suggest, I am Catholic.



No, I said your God was a jerk. I believe in the God of the Bible, in Jesus Christ. Not this guy you describe as throwing all non-fundies into hell.

Your God would send that Buddhist Monk to hell because he wasn't Christian even though he never had the chance to be and he was doing God's work anyway. Don't you think your theology must be flawed? How can an all merciful and loving God send a genuinely good person to hell? The answer is he doesn't, only evil people go to hell. Why can't you see that?

Constantine:

I guess that explains your strange posts. Being a Roman Catholic explains it. You do not really believe the Bible and obviously know even less about what it says, so I understand now where you are coming from - with calling God a jerk.

Now, you have stated that the God that I describe would "throw all non-fundies into hell." Since you have stated this is what I have said, please list a post where I have stated that. Than you raise some issue about a Buddhist Monk. Do you have anything to back up your accusation about me and your Buddhist Monk's salvation or lack there of?

Are you going to heaven Constantine? Are you sure? Why?

[Constantine]

I think those who are saved are those who read the scriptures themselves and believe that the Bible is of the turth and only truth and entire Bible is the truth.

Then you still get the Buddhist monk problem. If you must read the Scriptures and believe in the inerrancy of the Bible to be "saved" then that poor monk who lives in Tibet who does the work of God by helping the poor is not "saved" and thus will go to hell.

I guess that explains your strange posts. Being a Roman Catholic explains it. You do not really believe the Bible and obviously know even less about what it says, so I understand now where you are coming from

I believe the Bible to be Divenly inspired and inerrent when speaking on matters of Morality, Faith, and Salvation. I find it strange that someone who doesn't believe the Bible (yours only contains 66 books) by rejecting multiple entire books is preaching to someone who does the believe the Bible, the ENTIRE Bible.

with calling God a jerk.

Now you are deliberatly misrepresenting what I said and baring false witness. Maybe before trying to remove the splinter from anyone elses eye you should remove the plank stuck in yours.

How can you be an effective Ambassador for Christ if you lie about what others say?

You prance about in arrogance. Where is your humility?

Jude3b needs some serious self examination before he attacks anyone else.

Now, you have stated that the God that I describe would "throw all non-fundies into hell." Since you have stated this is what I have said, please list a post where I have stated that. Than you raise some issue about a Buddhist Monk. Do you have anything to back up your accusation about me and your Buddhist Monk's salvation or lack there of?

Your definition of idolator certainly includes a Buddhist. So then because you said Idolators go to hell it is logical to conclude that by your way of thinking this nice monk will burn forever in eternity. And for what grave crime? That which was not his own fault, ignorance.

Are you going to heaven Constantine? Are you sure? Why?

If I were to die right now I am pretty sure I'd end up in Purgatory. As far as my Salvation goes, I am confident that I will go to heaven (eventually) because I have no mortal sins on my soul.

Feel free to condemn me all you want, for it is your choice to do so. But be aware that Jesus has taught us not to judge others lest thee be judged.

[Jude3b]

Two factors motivate me to post on TWEB.

First, to expose the fact that religion and in particular Roman Catholicism is not Biblical. It is a religion comprised of tradtions of men which violate scripture at every turn.

Secondly, As a saved "Born-Again" ex-Roman Catholic, I would love for the religious that read my posts to experience the freedom and peace that I and millions of others have found since we broke free from the bondages of the Roman Catholic religion, by placing our hope for salvation in Jesus Christ alone.

Dear Roman Catholic friends: You do not have to live all your life in fear of going to Hell or even if you do hope to end up in heaven, you do not have to fear the fire of the Roman Catholic Purgatory.

Jesus wants to save you today. Like it states in Rev. 3:20, He is knocking at the door of your hearts and He wants to come into you and save you. Won't you invite Him in to be your Lord and Savior? Romanism cannot save you!

You will find that if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to save you and be your Lord, that He will never fail you. He will become more real and more precious to you each and every day. You will never have to go back to trusting in some religion - because you will have a relationship with Jesus Christ and that is better than anything this world has to offer.

God wants you to be saved today: "... behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." (2 Cor. 6:2).

If you want to become a child of God, just pray and talk to God from you heart. Pray and receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, really mean it and God's Word promises that you will be born into God's family. Amen.

[Constantine]

Jude3b, Why do you believe the Bible?

I of course have my own reasons for believing the Bible but they all fail without the Catholic Church so then I am curious to see if you a "Born-again" Christian can tell me why I should believe the Bible to be the Word of God.

I see the Bible as getting it's authority from the Church who gets Her Authority from Peter who got his authority from Christ.

Prove to me the inspiration of the Bible under a different premise and I would be more inclined to listen to you.

[Jude3b]

DIVINE AUTHORITY OF THE SCRIPTURES.

The truth of the Bible is determined by its nature; while its authority is dependent altogether upon its source. The more carefully and reverentially we study the sacred Scriptures, the more deeply are we impressed with the fact that they have proceeded from one source.

The writers of the Bible did not claim to be the authors; but, as the apostle Peter affirms, they "spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21).

The special messengers of God by whom the Bible was written were given the power of performing miracles, by which their inspiration was attested and their messages made authoritative; but the "more sure word of PROPHECY" (2 Peter 1:19) furnishes the greatest external proof of its inspiration. To this more than to anything else Christ and the apostles made their constant appeal. Matthew, narrating the deeds of the Savior, gives us the standing phrase, "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet"; while Peter affirms, in words unmistakable, that the "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21). From these facts Paul adduces his conclusion relative to the authority of the Bible, in these words: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16).

Christianity is the only faith that has ever dared to base itself on prophecy, contented to stand or fall with its exact fulilment. The fifty-third chapter of Isaiah, for example, describes Christ's crucifixion and atonement work with such accuracy of detail that the inspiration of the prophet is assured.

One of the clearest proofs that the Bible is the word of God is the fact that it now transforms human character and accomplishes the regeneration of lost and sinful men, such as I. The promises of salvation and deliverance contained in its pages are, to millions of people, proved to be a living reality.

The Bible claims for itself, divine inspiration. "Hear the word of the Lord," cries Isaiah. "Give ear, O earth, for the Lord hath spoken" (chap. 1:10,2).
Jesus says concerning Moses, "He wrote of me" (John 5:46).

The apostles themselves were specially inspired by the Holy Spirit, for Jesus said to them, "Take no thought how or what ye shall speak... for it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:19,20).

The Bible emerges from every legitimate test, external and internal, with glories undimmed, and bearing every evidence that it is indeed the word of God. And since it is clearly proved to be the divine Word, its absolute authority is forever settled.

God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6) because He is perfect. His Son, Jesus, doesn't change (Hebrews 13:8) because He is perfect. Why, then, should God's perfect Word keep changing, according to the whims and doctrines of Roman Catholicism?

If you will seriously read your Bible and compare its words with the teachings of Roman Catholicism - you will be forced to decide which you believe is the final authority: God's written Word, or the teachings and traditions of the Roman Catholic religion.

Your decision will become critical as you discover that God's Word and the teachings of the Roman Catholic religion are diametrically opposed on many major points of doctrine - especially on Salvation.

Will you side with the Word of God or the Roman Catholic traditions of men?

"...let God be true, but every man a liar..." (Romans 3:4)

[Jawa Man]

Jude, what do you think, then, of the amount of Evangelicals and born-againers (including myself) who have being going into Catholicism (RCC and EO)?

[Jude3b]

Jude, what do you think, then, of the amount of Evangelicals and born-againers (including myself) who have being going into Catholicism (RCC and EO)?

I have not heard of any significant number of true Christians backsliding and becoming Roman Catholic. While some religious people do change their religions, I seriously doubt that very few Bible believing saved people - backslide enough to become steeped in Romanism.

I do know many ex-Roman Catholics, like myself, who got saved and "came out of her (Romanism) my people" - and now worship at good solid Bible believing churches. This world is full of millions of "ex-Roman Catholics" who are now saved and Love the Lord with all their heart, mind and soul. Look at Central and South America for an excellent example of people getting saved and delivered from the religion of Romanism.

If someone backslides like yourself and enters the babylonian cult of Roman Catholicism, my first question is if you were ever truly saved - wondering how you can be so ignorant of the Word of God and to ask why you want to disobey the Word of God and "touch the unclean thing?

Obviously, I will pray that you repent, get saved and "come out of her"!

[Constantine]

The truth of the Bible is determined by its nature; while its authority is dependent altogether upon its source. The more carefully and reverentially we study the sacred Scriptures, the more deeply are we impressed with the fact that they have proceeded from one source.

The writers of the Bible did not claim to be the authors; but, as the apostle Peter affirms, they "spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21)

How do you know St. Peter isn't just talking about 2 Peter? And because something says it is Divine doesn't make it so.


The special messengers of God by whom the Bible was written were given the power of performing miracles, by which their inspiration was attested and their messages made authoritative; but the "more sure word of PROPHECY" (2 Peter 1:19) furnishes the greatest external proof of its inspiration. To this more than to anything else Christ and the apostles made their constant appeal. Matthew, narrating the deeds of the Savior, gives us the standing phrase, "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet"; while Peter affirms, in words unmistakable, that the "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21). From these facts Paul adduces his conclusion relative to the authority of the Bible, in these words: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16).

Indeed the Prophetic accuracy of the Bible is impressive, but that only means that those Prophecies are correct. It does not prove that every word in the Bible is Inspired.

Christianity is the only faith that has ever dared to base itself on prophecy, contented to stand or fall with its exact fulilment

First off, I think that Muslims will tell you their faith is based on Prophecy. Secondly Christianity bases itself on the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.

One of the clearest proofs that the Bible is the word of God is the fact that it now transforms human character and accomplishes the regeneration of lost and sinful men, such as I. The promises of salvation and deliverance contained in its pages are, to millions of people, proved to be a living reality.

Muslims say the same thing about the Koran. Are you going to go start learning Arabic now?

The Bible claims for itself, divine inspiration. "Hear the word of the Lord," cries Isaiah. "Give ear, O earth, for the Lord hath spoken" (chap. 1:10,2).
Jesus says concerning Moses, "He wrote of me" (John 5:46).

The Koran also claims for itself Divine Inspiration. You cannot use a claim of a book to prove the book. I could write something as say "the Lord hath written this book" and it wouldn't make it so.

The Bible emerges from every legitimate test, external and internal, with glories undimmed, and bearing every evidence that it is indeed the word of God. And since it is clearly proved to be the divine Word, its absolute authority is forever settled.

Are you a young-earth creationist? You seem to use the same logic as they do.

Your decision will become critical as you discover that God's Word and the teachings of the Roman Catholic religion are diametrically opposed on many major points of doctrine - especially on Salvation.

You seem to think that Catholics don't even own Bibles. I've read mine, and continue to read it. At every Mass we have multiple readings from Scripture. Infact if you go to daily mass you'll hear the entire Bible in a little over a year and I think it is two and a half years for just weekly mass.

Jude3b: I pray that you find the truth. The way you a presenting Christianity will drive non-Christians away. Your arguements for proing Biblical Inspiration are inadequate to say the least. Whenever you present Apologetics arguements you must first do it in as humble a manner as possible and examine your own arguements as if you are some hardened skeptical atheist.

What you are doing is dangerous to your own faith.

Why do I believe the Bible to be inspired? Well I believe the Bible to be inspired because like I said Christ gave the authority to Peter, and he passed that onto his Successors, the Bishops of Rome later called Popes.

The Bible gets its authority from the Church, not the other way around. You can use the Bible as a history book to prove the Church's authority and then use the Church's authority to give the Bible Spiritual authority as well as historical but you seem to be getting it backwards.

I think I'll start a thread on Proving Inspiration after I get done studying today.

[Jude3b]

I think that their salvation, as with any of us, comes down to having Christ as their savior. If they truly believe in Him and that their salvation is purely from the sacrifice of Jesus for us and not anything we did and have a relationship with Him as their Lord and Savior, then I thing that they will be saved. I think that is the important part, even if I don't agree with all of their teachings.

Dear Joan of Arc:

I don't know anybody who will disagree with your statement. Obviously there is only one way to go to Hell and that is Not having Jesus Christ as Savior.

But, how many Roman Catholics have you talked to that will openly state that they are sure of going to heaven - because Jesus Christ is their savior and they truly believe in Him and that their salvation is purerly from the sacrifice of Jesus for us and not anything we did (to earn) a relationship with Him as their Lord and Savior????? I'll bet its very few.

When I talk to most Roman Catholics - I usually get some vague answer like "I hope to go to heaven after purgatory - becasuse I don't plan to die with any mortal sins unconfessed" - which is tantamount to saying God will let me go to heaven, because I'm not such a bad person. Where is the glory and credit due to Jesus Christ - for what He accomplished and finished on the cross?

You want to hear something strange? Most of the time when I am in a witnessing situation and I ask the Roman Catholic that I am talking to - to tell me why Christ died on the cross - more often than not they tell me "to be a good example for us" - Nothing is said about Him dieing on the cross so that my sins would be forgiven. Most Roman Catholics - and this is true I think of all unsaved people - do not have a clue why Christ came and went to the cross.

[Jawa Man]

I've never heard of that Jude, but I wouldn't be surprised. But usually I see two extremes. Catholics will mistakenly emphasize good works more than the grace of God, and the more Protestant-bent emphasize believe and faith, to a point where they rely on cheap grace.

[scholasticus]

Dear CT,

As has been mentioned before, the website it comes from is pretty tongue-in-cheek, and I imagine it probably does more harm than good.

If anyone actually finds substance in the arguments put forward in that little snippet, I would direct you to some basic Catholic apologetics, such as you might find on the following websites:

www.catholicoutlook.com

www.catholic.com

www.catholicapologetics.org/cabiapbk.htm

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ345.HTM

...and probably many more.

I especially recommend this little primer for Jude 3b! :) God bless you mate (make sure you read every page ;p )

OK, let's try and redress the balance a little here:

TO CHRIST BE THE GLORY!!!!!

and to me the blame

Peace

Keir

[Jude3b]

I've never heard of that Jude, but I wouldn't be surprised. But usually I see two extremes. Catholics will mistakenly emphasize good works more than the grace of God, and the more Protestant-bent emphasize believe and faith, to a point where they rely on cheap grace.

Dear JawaMan:

I notice the same thing. But something to keep in mind is this. We cannot for certain know a man's heart. We really will have to wait until judgment day to find out who is truly saved and who is not. One of my heroes was always Mother Teresa. No finer woman could be found. Yet, who could surely say that she was fully trusting in Christ and Him alone for her salvation. It is possible she was trusting in her "good works" to earn salvation. It is possible she was trusting in the "idol of Roman Catholicism" and not the one true God. I certainly hope not and I don't mean to imply that she was. She certainly bore good fruit and Jesus did say, "By their fruits you will know them!"

Protestants who seem to believe in "cheap grace" are another case. It is entirely possible that someone could have come forward in a church service and did not really mean their prayer - asking Jesus to be their savior - but not really believe it with their heart of hearts. Not really mean it. They go right on with their sinful life. Are they saved, I doubt it. But, we will still have to wait until that judgment day to know for sure.

[Jawa Man]

I'm glad we hold the same opinions on some things, Jude! :teeth:

[Palinator]

When I talk to most Roman Catholics - I usually get some vague answer like "I hope to go to heaven after purgatory - becasuse I don't plan to die with any mortal sins unconfessed" - which is tantamount to saying God will let me go to heaven, because I'm not such a bad person. Where is the glory and credit due to Jesus Christ - for what He accomplished and finished on the cross?

You want to hear something strange? Most of the time when I am in a witnessing situation and I ask the Roman Catholic that I am talking to - to tell me why Christ died on the cross - more often than not they tell me "to be a good example for us" - Nothing is said about Him dieing on the cross so that my sins would be forgiven. Most Roman Catholics - and this is true I think of all unsaved people - do not have a clue why Christ came and went to the cross.
Huh, that is interesting. I'm going to go ask about why Christ died on the Catholic forum I post on.

[Jawa Man]

Joan, I'm sure some Catholics might be confused, but I think it's like if I went to a Protestant board and asked people. I'm sure all would say, "For my sins," but some would be thinking, "So I could have a free trip to Heaven: FOR NOTHING!"

[Jude3b]

Huh, that is interesting. I'm going to go ask about why Christ died on the Catholic forum I post on.

Dear Joan of Arc:

Please let me know the results of your survey over on the Catholc forum.

[Palinator]

Dear Joan of Arc:

Please let me know the results of your survey over on the Catholc forum.
My thread title was "Why did Jesus die?" There are about 45 views on in and four replies. Because this thread is not quite 24 hours old at this time, there will likely be more replies over the next few days. The two notable answers so far are one reply saying Jesus died to take our place as a sacrifice for our sins because sin must have a consequence and to give the gift of Himself through the Eucharist (communion) and one reply saying that he always wondered about that and expressing uncertainty about why death and how it saves us.

The natural order of things has consequences for actions. Humans actions reap the consequence of a lose of eternal life.

2 reasons Jesus died:

1. He took on our consequences so we still have the option of eternal life. He can't just take away the consequence, because that would be taking away our freewill…

2. By becoming human and dying, Jesus is able to give us the gift of Himself.

I have long wondered this exact question...how exactly it works that Jesus' death actually redeamed our sins.

One thing I've never understood...why DEATH? Like, why did Jesus actually have to die and be resurrected for our sins to be redeamed? Also, how is it exactly that Jesus was able to take upon our consequences...how is it that what he did actually saved us?

Thread at Catholic forum asking Why did Jesus Die (http://board.onerock.com/index.php?showtopic=1122&pid=21298&st=0&#entry21298)

[Constantine]

I think the answer from Nicole was satisfactory though I would have worded it differently.

I thought this answer was rather amusing:

Because he was nailed to a cross and pierced with a spear. Duh.

It is hardly in good taste but it does remind us not to take ourselves too seriously.

Also if you want to know something about Catholic doctrine you shouldn't go quote hunting on a message board you should look it up in the Catechism.

[Jude3b]

My thread title was "Why did Jesus die?" There are about 45 views on in and four replies. Because this thread is not quite 24 hours old at this time, there will likely be more replies over the next few days. The two notable answers so far are one reply saying Jesus died to take our place as a sacrifice for our sins because sin must have a consequence and to give the gift of Himself through the Eucharist (communion) and one reply saying that he always wondered about that and expressing uncertainty about why death and how it saves us.





Thread at Catholic forum asking Why did Jesus Die (http://board.onerock.com/index.php?showtopic=1122&pid=21298&st=0&#entry21298)

Dear Joan of Arc:

One thing that might skew your survey on a theological website compared to my witnessing in person one on one with Roman Catholics that I meet on the street or work with on a job. The people on a theological website - will often give you a theological answer - whereas the average everyday Roman Catholic person - often has no clue about theological questions, nor do they have much interest it seems in them.

[Palinator]

Dear Joan of Arc:

One thing that might skew your survey on a theological website compared to my witnessing in person one on one with Roman Catholics that I meet on the street or work with on a job. The people on a theological website - will often give you a theological answer - whereas the average everyday Roman Catholic person - often has no clue about theological questions, nor do they have much interest it seems in them.
It's not entirely theological, but yes, the results will bare a certain bias. Still, it is interesting and there was that post by the individual who did not understand redemption very well and expressed that.

[Palinator]

On the site, more people have started responding on the Catholic site and tried to explain Jesus's death. I thought this was an interesting question one brought up. Did he die for us, or for God the father?

[Jude3b]

On the site, more people have started responding on the Catholic site and tried to explain Jesus's death. I thought this was an interesting question one brought up.

Christ died on the cross for us and it was the Will of the Father that He do so.

[Jude3b]

Not all Catholics will go to Hell... only the ones who practice Catholicism instead of the Christianity taught in the Bible.


Amen to that VFarris01. Let us pray that they will all come to faith in Christ and be delivered from that religion.

[BurningBush--U]

The devil and demons believe. That does not cut it.

There is more to it.

You must follow scripture, and negate any of mans doctrines and or understandings. Weed your hearts using the law as a guide, the heart
must be pricked to the point of Change!

[Jude3b]

The devil and demons believe. That does not cut it.

There is more to it.

You must follow scripture, and negate any of mans doctrines and or understandings. Weed your hearts using the law as a guide, the heart
must be pricked to the point of Change!



Dear BurningFush--U:

Thank you for joining our Thread here on TWEB. Welcome!

I agree with your post.

But may I ask you please, are you saying that Roman Catholics will go to hell, if they remain Roman Catholic?

[Joe Gofish]

Now I found this article from a site that claims to be Baptist but obviously is parody and makes fun of Christianity. If you trim all the insults and mockery towards the Catholic church, is any of what is said in this article about the Catholics going against the word of God true? Here is the article from LandoverBaptist.org (please remember that I do not support this kind of trash talk and I am only looking for people's opinions on this) Anyone can call himself a Christian, but that doesn’t make it so. Anyone can quote the Bible, but that doesn’t make him saved. Anyone can build a giant, elaborate cathedral, with stained glass windows and ornate sculptures, but that doesn’t make him Heaven-bound. Friends, the number of Hell-bound heathens claiming to believe in Jesus is countless. They go by names like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Moonies and Branch Davidians. No matter the name, they will roast on a spit above Satan’s hot coals for eternity while we sip Rothschild’s finest with our Savior in Heaven. But perhaps the most dangerous cult, whose members will be the first plunged into Lucifer’s fiery abyss, is also one of the most popular. I am, of course, referring to the Catholics.



Catholics claim to be Christians despite the fact that much of what they believe constitutes the essence of blasphemy. They spit in Jesus’ face every time they hold mass, yet many saved Christians still believe Catholics will be ascending to Heaven with us. How could our colleagues be fooled by a religion that is so obviously anti-Christian? They assume that, because the Catholics have millions of followers worldwide, they must believe something right. Well, let me tell you something – popularity means nothing. Sixty million Americans eat Spam but that hardly makes it good.

The ways in which Catholics defy God’s word are too numerous to describe in this sermon. So let me just focus on a few. First, they worship mortals, something God expressly admonished against. Catholics claim to love Jesus and claim to believe in the Holy Trinity. But they don’t limit their worship to God, as the Bible demands (Exodus 20:3). Instead, they pray to mere mortals – Mary, Joseph and the so-called “saints” – humans, whom they have made gods in their own right. Humans, who they believe can perform the miracles of our Savior. I once saw a Catholic woman praying beside her car in a mall parking lot. When I asked her if she was praying to the Lord, she said, “no,” she was praying to Saint Anthony to help her find her car keys.

This is idolatry, pure and simple. The Bible orders us not to pray to dead men (Psalms 106:28), and Jesus instructs us not to pray to angels (Colossians 2:18). We are to have one God, and one God alone. The Catholics actually worship a woman! Mary, the woman who was selected at random to serve as the incubator for Christ. There are actually documents written by popes that say Mary, a mortal female, is the key to salvation. Blasphemy doesn’t get more blatant than that.

But the Catholics don’t stop there. They actually bow before and pray to statues – graven images not only of God but of these mortals they (not God) have declared to be saints. Bowing to images is the essence of idolatry (Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 5;9; Isaiah 44:17; Daniel 3:5, 10, 15), even if the image is of God (Exodus 32:4-6 with Psalms 106:19-20). What happens to those who practice idolatry? They never enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

There are numerous other Catholic beliefs that run afoul of God’s word. The Catholics believe some people neither go to Heaven nor Hell, but instead wind up in an imaginary fantasyland they call “purgatory” (even though there is no such place described in the Bible). The Catholics believe we cannot confess our sins to God directly, but instead have to recite them to a pedophile intermediary, despite the fact that the Bible never suggests this. They think, in order to be forgiven of sin, we have to recite rote prayers over and over (like some elementary school kid ordered to write, “I will not talk in class” 100 times on the blackboard), even though such nonsense finds no support in the Bible. They baptize babies before they know the difference between Jesus and Pampers. Even worse, they reject the Bible in favor of the statements of some nelly queen in a dress and a Madonna bosom-cup hat, believing anything that idol says while in the cathedral comes from God. That is blasphemy if the term has any meaning! And worst of all, they don’t believe one must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

The bottom line is that the Catholic church is nothing more than a cult that happened to catch on. Granted, the pope has a greater following than Jim Jones did, but the distinction ends there. One need only watch an altar boy walk bowlegged from a priest’s chambers to recognize theirs is hardly the “true faith.” Homosexuality is not merely something the Catholics have overlooked and ignored. It is something they have actively promoted (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0100/investigation.html). And if all of that isn’t enough to convince you of the truth, bear in mind that Catholics claim to have seen visions of the face of Mary bleeding on objects ranging from an adobe wall to a bowel movement (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0400/briefs.html). They might as well be Elvis-spotters. And for all the good the pomp and circumstance of their services will do them, the Catholics might as well just sacrifice pets on their front lawns. That would give them the same shot at Heaven -- none. So say “farewell,” “goodbye,” “hope the heat doesn’t get to you” to all your Catholic friends. For one thing is certain. There is no room in Heaven for Mary-loving, incense-burning, Pope-adoring, candle-lighting, apparition-seeing, statue-slobbering, ring-kissing, wafer-eating, stained glass-loving, altar-boy banging, mackarel-snapping idol-worshipers!
Once again I see that the Baptists are sending people to hell,and I was thinking that was the job of Christ but then again some people on this board think they are god.
It is amazing Jim jones,Chas russell,David Korish,Joe Smith,Baker and many other said they where all Bible believieng Christians and that they where all guided by the Holy Spirit,Does the Bible not say God is not a God of Confusion.
We have over 32,000 non-catholic deominations in the world today all saying they are Bible believer and are all lead by the Holy Spirit.32,000 popes against one

[Joe Gofish]

Now I found this article from a site that claims to be Baptist but obviously is parody and makes fun of Christianity. If you trim all the insults and mockery towards the Catholic church, is any of what is said in this article about the Catholics going against the word of God true? Here is the article from LandoverBaptist.org (please remember that I do not support this kind of trash talk and I am only looking for people's opinions on this) Anyone can call himself a Christian, but that doesn’t make it so. Anyone can quote the Bible, but that doesn’t make him saved. Anyone can build a giant, elaborate cathedral, with stained glass windows and ornate sculptures, but that doesn’t make him Heaven-bound. Friends, the number of Hell-bound heathens claiming to believe in Jesus is countless. They go by names like Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Moonies and Branch Davidians. No matter the name, they will roast on a spit above Satan’s hot coals for eternity while we sip Rothschild’s finest with our Savior in Heaven. But perhaps the most dangerous cult, whose members will be the first plunged into Lucifer’s fiery abyss, is also one of the most popular. I am, of course, referring to the Catholics.



Catholics claim to be Christians despite the fact that much of what they believe constitutes the essence of blasphemy. They spit in Jesus’ face every time they hold mass, yet many saved Christians still believe Catholics will be ascending to Heaven with us. How could our colleagues be fooled by a religion that is so obviously anti-Christian? They assume that, because the Catholics have millions of followers worldwide, they must believe something right. Well, let me tell you something – popularity means nothing. Sixty million Americans eat Spam but that hardly makes it good.

The ways in which Catholics defy God’s word are too numerous to describe in this sermon. So let me just focus on a few. First, they worship mortals, something God expressly admonished against. Catholics claim to love Jesus and claim to believe in the Holy Trinity. But they don’t limit their worship to God, as the Bible demands (Exodus 20:3). Instead, they pray to mere mortals – Mary, Joseph and the so-called “saints” – humans, whom they have made gods in their own right. Humans, who they believe can perform the miracles of our Savior. I once saw a Catholic woman praying beside her car in a mall parking lot. When I asked her if she was praying to the Lord, she said, “no,” she was praying to Saint Anthony to help her find her car keys.

This is idolatry, pure and simple. The Bible orders us not to pray to dead men (Psalms 106:28), and Jesus instructs us not to pray to angels (Colossians 2:18). We are to have one God, and one God alone. The Catholics actually worship a woman! Mary, the woman who was selected at random to serve as the incubator for Christ. There are actually documents written by popes that say Mary, a mortal female, is the key to salvation. Blasphemy doesn’t get more blatant than that.

But the Catholics don’t stop there. They actually bow before and pray to statues – graven images not only of God but of these mortals they (not God) have declared to be saints. Bowing to images is the essence of idolatry (Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 5;9; Isaiah 44:17; Daniel 3:5, 10, 15), even if the image is of God (Exodus 32:4-6 with Psalms 106:19-20). What happens to those who practice idolatry? They never enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

There are numerous other Catholic beliefs that run afoul of God’s word. The Catholics believe some people neither go to Heaven nor Hell, but instead wind up in an imaginary fantasyland they call “purgatory” (even though there is no such place described in the Bible). The Catholics believe we cannot confess our sins to God directly, but instead have to recite them to a pedophile intermediary, despite the fact that the Bible never suggests this. They think, in order to be forgiven of sin, we have to recite rote prayers over and over (like some elementary school kid ordered to write, “I will not talk in class” 100 times on the blackboard), even though such nonsense finds no support in the Bible. They baptize babies before they know the difference between Jesus and Pampers. Even worse, they reject the Bible in favor of the statements of some nelly queen in a dress and a Madonna bosom-cup hat, believing anything that idol says while in the cathedral comes from God. That is blasphemy if the term has any meaning! And worst of all, they don’t believe one must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

The bottom line is that the Catholic church is nothing more than a cult that happened to catch on. Granted, the pope has a greater following than Jim Jones did, but the distinction ends there. One need only watch an altar boy walk bowlegged from a priest’s chambers to recognize theirs is hardly the “true faith.” Homosexuality is not merely something the Catholics have overlooked and ignored. It is something they have actively promoted (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0100/investigation.html). And if all of that isn’t enough to convince you of the truth, bear in mind that Catholics claim to have seen visions of the face of Mary bleeding on objects ranging from an adobe wall to a bowel movement (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0400/briefs.html). They might as well be Elvis-spotters. And for all the good the pomp and circumstance of their services will do them, the Catholics might as well just sacrifice pets on their front lawns. That would give them the same shot at Heaven -- none. So say “farewell,” “goodbye,” “hope the heat doesn’t get to you” to all your Catholic friends. For one thing is certain. There is no room in Heaven for Mary-lov