God's Sovereignty applied to life.

[calvinistkid]

Just about all Christians at least pay lip-service to the sovereignty of God. However, just how far would you take the idea when confronted with a real-life situation? How far do you think God's sovereignty goes in an event like the Sept. 11th attacks?

[yxboom]

CK I moved our discussion to this forum (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=49542#post49542). Check your PMs.

[calvinistkid]

Ok... this is seperate though, right? I didn't really want to debate here, just find out what other people thought.

[yxboom]

I voted but since you hadn't checked your PMs I thought I would drop you a note is all. By all means don't mind me.

[calvinistkid]

Thanks for the reminder. I didn't even know I HAD a pm box. I like this place :yipee:

[Captain Ochre]

God was entirely sovereign over the acts of 9-11, and part of his sovereignty included allowing free moral agents to determine the events of that day. Nobody could have lifted a finger had the act not been permitted by God.
IOW, I chose "other", since complete sovereignty and complete control don't seem to convey the same idea.

[calvinistkid]

Yesterday @ 10:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=50457#post50457)
Captain Ochre:

God was entirely sovereign over the acts of 9-11, and part of his sovereignty included allowing free moral agents to determine the events of that day. Nobody could have lifted a finger had the act not been permitted by God.
IOW, I chose "other", since complete sovereignty and complete control don't seem to convey the same idea.

So when God chose to allow "free moral agents" to determine the course of events, did He know what they would do with this ability? Was this a decision that is solely applicable to Sept. 11th and other "bad" events, or does it apply to everything that ever has or will happen? Does God ever go against the will of the "free moral agents"?

[Pilgrim]

I wouldn't ask that questino in the light of such tragedies. These things happen and I think the more helpful questino to ask is "In light of such tragedy, how do we respond?"

Pilgrim

[calvinistkid]

Today @ 08:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51211#post51211)
Pilgrim:

I wouldn't ask that questino in the light of such tragedies. These things happen and I think the more helpful questino to ask is "In light of such tragedy, how do we respond?"

Pilgrim

To the contrary, Pilgrim, I think that is a question that MUST be asked. The answer to that question will decide how we respond to such actions. I merely asked the question to see how other people felt on the issue. As I said in my opening post, almost all christians will say "God is sovereign.", but there is a HUGE difference among christians when asked a question such as this one. And personaly, I find it comforting to think of how God's hand is present in such events. The first question in many people's minds after such a tradgedy is "How could God let this happen?" Well, Pilgrim, how would you answer them?

[Pilgrim]

I still don't agree with your assertion, regardless of how the events came to pass, our response tot he event should stay the same and that is to care for the "orphan and the widow" to provide healing and comfort and all for the glory of God.

Ultimately my comfort does not come from finding the cause of a certain action but in the fact that I know God is good, a sentiment which is at the heart of Calvins theology. In fact he says that the fundamental benevolence of God is the foundation of all theology.

So whether or not God caused a certain event, or "allowed" it to happen our comfort is still in the fact that what ever is the good thing, God is doing it.

In regards to evil I think we often confuse what is painful to us with what is bad. Or what feels good to us with what is actually good. It is hard to admit but that equation doesn't wash.

In response to the question you pose, as a pastor I would not try to answer such questions in the aftermath of such travesty. I would simply be a place where people could come to voice questions, doubt and frustration with out fear of judgement. I would help them process through all of that with out offering snap or cliche answers because in the individuals moment of hurt that would not be productive for healing.

[calvinistkid]

Pilgrim, let me just say (and this is from personal experience) that those questions, if left unanswered, can be FATAL to a person's faith. Just look at the first entry in my journal. I explain it there.

[Pilgrim]

I'll do that. Thanks for being vulnerable. I'll try and respect that as we talk.

[$cirisme]

I voted other. I think he could have had complete control over everything, but he chose not to.

[calvinistkid]

Um... I don't want to sound defensive here... but what do you mean by "vulnerable"?

[Captain Ochre]

Today @ 08:14 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51184#post51184)
calvinistkid:



So when God chose to allow "free moral agents" to determine the course of events, did He know what they would do with this ability?


Sorry to sound Clintonesque, but it depends on what "when" means.
If God is atemporal (as the creator of time might be expected to be), then "when" isn't that easy to pin down.


Was this a decision that is solely applicable to Sept. 11th and other "bad" events, or does it apply to everything that ever has or will happen? Does God ever go against the will of the "free moral agents"?

Probably.
I'm guessing that Satan has a will that is constantly being stunted by God's pesky restrictions.
Siimilarly, Hitler had a will for world domination that was ultimately frustrated, and God may well have had a direct hand in that beyond the free actions of allied free moral agents.

[calvinistkid]

Sorry if I sounded unclear. I meant "when" not in a time sense, but more as "under what circumstances"

[Captain Ochre]

Yesterday @ 10:36 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51299#post51299)
calvinistkid:

Sorry if I sounded unclear. I meant "when" not in a time sense, but more as "under what circumstances"

Hmmm.
"So when [under what circumstances] God chose to allow "free moral agents" to determine the course of events, did He know what they would do with this ability?"
bracketed bits added by C.O courtesy of calvinistkid

I don't think that I know what you're asking/saying.

I'll take a mostly-wild guess.
I don't think that it is logically possible to know what free moral agents will actually do if those free moral agents do not exist at all anywhere in time, space-time, or whatever.
IOW, if they are not actual, there are no actual actions associated with their "decisions".

[Chappie]

So when God chose to allow "free moral agents" to determine the course of events, did He know what they would do with this ability? Was this a decision that is solely applicable to Sept. 11th and other "bad" events, or does it apply to everything that ever has or will happen? Does God ever go against the will of the "free moral agents"?

I do not necessarily believe that through freewill God gave man authority over events. Whenever man's choices affect the continuity of events, I choose to call it interference rather than control.

I see the purpose and extent of freewill to be God giving us the ability to choose our eternal destiny. We might make a billion choices in a lifetime; still there is only one choice that we make that has eternal consequences. To accept Christ, or not to accept Christ.

Whither we wear a red hat or a blue hat, whither we desire to fly or not to fly, whither we marry Sue of Sally, whither we eat peanut butter with jelly, or peanut butter without jelly: Do you see God as such a control freak that he would rather robotize man just so he can exert or constantly prove his sovereignty. One pop of his power and we can all figure out who is sovereign.

In this lifetime, there is but one choice that we are capable of making that really concerns God. Will you accept my only begotten Son as your lord and savior? Will you love him, honor him, obey him, and forsaking all others; give yourself only to him to the very best of your abilities. When Christ proposes, will you say, “I DO"? :pray: Amen...

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
(Whole Chapter: Joshua 24 In context: Joshua 24:14-16)