Trumpet

[themuzicman]

How does one disassociate Matt 24:31 from 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16?


"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

What is the great trumpet, if not these? What is the scriptural basis for this great trumpet? In the OT, the trumpet was used to worship, to call people to battle and to warn them of the Day of the Lord's judgment was upon them.

The only GREAT trumpet I see is


It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

And that appears to be a gathering of the children of Israel to Jerusalem.

What symbolism is being referred to there?

Michael

[GoBahnsen]

How does one disassociate Matt 24:31 from 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16?


"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

What is the great trumpet, if not these? What is the scriptural basis for this great trumpet? In the OT, the trumpet was used to worship, to call people to battle and to warn them of the Day of the Lord's judgment was upon them.

The only GREAT trumpet I see is


It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

And that appears to be a gathering of the children of Israel to Jerusalem.

What symbolism is being referred to there?

MichaelGood question, I want to know as well. :popcorn:

[themuzicman]

cricket.. cricket...

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

How does one disassociate Matt 24:31 from 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16?
Well there are 112 occurances of the word Trumpet in the ESV bible. You disassociate Matt 24:31 from 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16 by context, the way you would with any other mention of the word trumpet.

I'm not sure I understand your question.
What is the great trumpet, if not these? What is the scriptural basis for this great trumpet? In the OT, the trumpet was used to worship, to call people to battle and to warn them of the Day of the Lord's judgment was upon them.

The only GREAT trumpet I see is


It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

And that appears to be a gathering of the children of Israel to Jerusalem.

What symbolism is being referred to there?

Michael
Sorry muz, I'm still not clear on what specifically you are asking. :huh:

[themuzicman]

Preterism relies heavily on the use of symbols, especially from the OT to interpret NT prophecies.

The use of trumpet in those three instances appear to refer to a similar event.

If not, what is the symbolism of the trumpet that defines each as a different event?

Michael

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Preterism relies heavily on the use of symbols, especially from the OT to interpret NT prophecies.

The use of trumpet in those three instances appear to refer to a similar event.

If not, what is the symbolism of the trumpet that defines each as a different event?

Michael
I see said the blind man.

Don't have time to give a detailed answer.

IOW, this is off the cuff, so I reserve the right to retract anything I say as insuffeciently thought out.

Well here goes nothing:

You stated:

In the OT, the trumpet was used to worship, to call people to battle and to warn them of the Day of the Lord's judgment was upon them.
Well you list is not complete there are several other uses for trumpets in the old testament, including assembling God's people.

Ex:

Make two silver trumpets. Of hammered work you shall make them, and you shall use them for summoning the congregation and for breaking camp.

We determine the use of the symbolic meaning (as I said earlier) by context. It would be backwards to assume that the trumpets meant the same thing before considering the context.

As far as the Isa. passage and how it relates to the "Great Trumpet" in Matthew.

This is totally off the cuff so bear with me if I say something extra stupid.

Both the Isa. passage and the Matthew passage deal with the calling together of God's people (from a preterist perspective anyway). It would appear that the "great trumpet" if there is any significance to the parallel useage of that term, would imply the assembling symbolism of the trumpet.

Whereas the other passages deal with judgement and do not use the term great trumpet.

That is my quick answer. If you have any questions feel free to ask. If you think I am just flat out wrong tell me why and I will likely agree (since this is a "shoot from the hip" answer.)

Hope this at least gives the thread a boost, if for no other reason than to correct my errors made in haste.

[dynomite]

How does one disassociate Matt 24:31 from 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16?


"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

What is the great trumpet, if not these? What is the scriptural basis for this great trumpet? In the OT, the trumpet was used to worship, to call people to battle and to warn them of the Day of the Lord's judgment was upon them.

The only GREAT trumpet I see is


It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

And that appears to be a gathering of the children of Israel to Jerusalem.

What symbolism is being referred to there?

Michael

Hello Michael,

I would disassociate the trumpets based on context. First, I would suggest that Mt. 23-24 (and possibley 25, but the jury is still out on that for me) should all be taken together. In Mt. 23 Jesus pronounces "woes" upon the Pharisees for many things, but they travelled across sea and land to make a proselyte, but they made them twice the sons of hell, etc. Jesus concludes Mt. 23 with these words, "37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Jesus longed to "gather" the children of Israel together, but "YOU would not". "Jerusalem, Jerusalem" would not "gather" the children of Israel. Essentially the Pharisees and leaders were "children of the devil" and not God's messengers, although they sat on the seat of Moses. Upon the destruction of Jerusalem, the tribulation, etc., and when Christ is enthroned, which I believe the language of Mt. 24 is talking about, Jesus will send out his messengers to "gather" his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another. Now, is the "gathering" in Mt. 23 a resurrection? I would answer no. The Pharisees were travelling land and sea, but not gathering God's people. Jesus would send out his messengers to "gather" his elect from the four corners. Is the "gathering" in Mt. 24 a resurrection? If we allow the context to determine the meaning of the word, then I believe the answer is no. This trumpet blast is similar to the trumpets found in 1 Co. and 1 Thess, but I don't believe the same for several reasons. I would point out, however, that there is an element that the future judgment is brought into the presence and this is important in understanding eschatology. With the resurrection of Jesus Christ the future was brought into the present.

Anyway, in both 1 Thess. and 1 Co. the surrounding context is the resurrection, which is not the context of Mt. 24, and includes the dead being raised. Is there similar language? Yes. Why? Because there is a close unity between the current gathering and the gathering of that final day. The context of 1 Co. 15 is the reign of the Messiah and how he will reign until the last enemy, death, is put under his feet, then comes the resurrection. I see no contextual reason to believe that the Paul thought all of Christ's enemies, including the death and therefore the resurrection, was going to occur in his lifetime. In fact, I believe the destruction of Jerusalem was the beginning of putting Christ's enemies under his feet and it then turned to the Roman Empire and now possibly America and the Middle East. All in all, Jesus is still gathering his elect and they are participating in the eschatological day, b/c the future has been brought into the present.

What say you?

dynomite

[themuzicman]

Well, you've told me what's it NOT... So, what IS it?

Michael

[dynomite]

Well, you've told me what's it NOT... So, what IS it?

Michael


Michael,

I would say that the trumpet in Mt. 24:31 is the Gospel trumpet, which consists of the preaching of the Gospel going out into all the world since the destruction of Jerusalem. It is the current means of gathering the elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. I believe the trumpet in 1 Thess. and 1 Co. are related and the completion of this trumpet call, so they are closely associated, but distinct. For example, every Sunday we celebrate "the Lord's Day"/"Day of the Lord", which is a foretaste of "the Day of the Lord", i.e. there is a gathering, call to worship, separation, judgment of sin, and a meal, etc. They are closely related, but dstinct. The Trumpet in 1 Thess. and 1 Co. is the last trumpet blast, concluding history, raising the dead, and Jesus handing the Kingdom over to the Father.

I hope that helps.

dynomite

[themuzicman]

Michael,

I would say that the trumpet in Mt. 24:31 is the Gospel trumpet, which consists of the preaching of the Gospel going out into all the world since the destruction of Jerusalem. It is the current means of gathering the elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. I believe the trumpet in 1 Thess. and 1 Co. are related and the completion of this trumpet call, so they are closely associated, but distinct. For example, every Sunday we celebrate "the Lord's Day"/"Day of the Lord", which is a foretaste of "the Day of the Lord", i.e. there is a gathering, call to worship, separation, judgment of sin, and a meal, etc. They are closely related, but dstinct. The Trumpet in 1 Thess. and 1 Co. is the last trumpet blast, concluding history, raising the dead, and Jesus handing the Kingdom over to the Father.

I hope that helps.

dynomite

What gospel trumpet? Where is it defined? Where is this symbolism coming from? If Jesus expects that His disciples will understand the idea of a "great trumpet", it has to be explained somewhere.

Michael

[FirstSunday33ad]

It should also be noted that the use of "heavenly" trumpets to signal a world changing event is used in non-Christian literature of the period. It is possible that as this was understood by the people of the day as meaning such an event, that it is used in the NT in this context. The repeated use of divine trumpets as signals of the next world event in Revelations - which is the most "Roman" book in the Bible - seems to lend this possibility some credence.

[dizzle]

I will be addressing this when I get to that passage in my Matthew 24 commentary.

[studyhound]

I will be addressing this when I get to that passage in my Matthew 24 commentary.
Oh you tease.......:ddw::innocent:

[themuzicman]

It should also be noted that the use of "heavenly" trumpets to signal a world changing event is used in non-Christian literature of the period. It is possible that as this was understood by the people of the day as meaning such an event, that it is used in the NT in this context. The repeated use of divine trumpets as signals of the next world event in Revelations - which is the most "Roman" book in the Bible - seems to lend this possibility some credence.

You know, that's interesting, because my prof just said this morning that Revelation cannot be understood outside of the Old Testament. Seems to me that it is a very hebraic book.

Michael

[John Reece]

You know, that's interesting, because my prof just said this morning that Revelation cannot be understood outside of the Old Testament. Seems to me that it is a very hebraic book.

Michael

:thumb: