Can God become so angry at a person, that he causes them not to repent?

[Gavin]

Would you agree to this statement: "God can become so angry at a person in this life, that he can cause them not to repent?

I am curious if arminians would agree to that. If the question is too vague, then feel free to avoid the poll and expand on your reasons for doing so and your own view.

Thanks!

[yxboom]

You might consider changing the title to the question you posed cause the title is too abstract and there is another thread by the same or similar name.

As for the question.......it appears extremely loaded in terminology. Forgive me for being skeptical cause your question requests an unqualified answer which you will then appeal to Romans i:28.

[Sozo]

Today @ 10:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=50715#post50715)
Gavin:

Would you agree to this statement: "God can become so angry at a person in this life, that he can cause them not to repent?

I am curious if arminians would agree to that.

What could a person "do" that would make God angry?

[Sozo]

Today @ 10:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=50715#post50715)
Gavin:

Would you agree to this statement: "God can become so angry at a person in this life, that he can cause them not to repent?

I am curious if arminians would agree to that.

One more thing...

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

[yxboom]

That is II Peter 3:9 :thumb:

[Gavin]

boom,


You might consider changing the title to the question you posed cause the title is too abstract and there is another thread by the same or similar name.

As for the question.......it appears extremely loaded in terminology. Forgive me for being skeptical cause your question requests an unqualified answer which you will then appeal to Romans i:28.

I edited it.

Sozo,

What could a person "do" that would make God angry?

Sin?

[yxboom]

Not the Subject the Title :bonk:

I'll do it.

[Gavin]

whoops once again my complete ignorance on computers comes through.:huh:

[Gavin]

Come on Arminians don't be shy.

I promise I won't appeal to Romans 1, I just want to know if you agree to that, for the purposes of another discussion I am having.

Gavin

[geebob]

I have no strong opinion on this as if he could get so angry, it does not interfere with my paradigm in much of a significant way that I can tell. As long as that person had a real chance and a good chance not to make God that angry prior to making him that angry, I have little qualms with the idea.

[Sheepdog]

first off, my theology is not entirely in line with Arminianism, so don't take my comments as representing of Arminians, unless another wants to step up and confirm what i say.

second, i don't know if it is logically viable for something to cause a non-event. but, since this is just a terminology issue, it doesn't affect the crux of the question.

third, i neither agree nor disagree with the question, because it seems loaded with a false dilemma. i believe that God would be a cause of refusal to repent. not the cause. if we reduce this to causal logic, you will see what i mean:

let:
N be volition to not repent
H be hardening of heart by God
S be the life of sin that is disdained by God

basic causality is:
If C then E; and
If not-C then not-E

the argument thus follows:
1. If C then E
2. C
3. Therefore E

the Bible teaches:
1. If S then H
2. S
3. Therefore H
(cf. Is. 6:9,10 in context; Rom. 1:18-24)

Also:
1. If H, then N
2. H
3. Therefore N
(cf. Is. 6:9,10 John 12:38-40)

But, from logic we know:
1. If C then E
2. If E then F
3. Therefore If C then F

Thus:
1. If S then H
2. If H then N
3. Therefore if S then N
4. S
5. Therefore N

so, what we end up with here is, the ultimate cause of the refusal to repent is the life of sin the natural man chooses to live in. God's hardening is technically a cause, but more in terms of an intermediary cause.

[Gavin]

Sheepdog,

first off, my theology is not entirely in line with Arminianism, so don't take my comments as representing of Arminians, unless another wants to step up and confirm what i say.

second, i don't know if it is logically viable for something to cause a non-event. but, since this is just a terminology issue, it doesn't affect the crux of the question.

third, i neither agree nor disagree with the question, because it seems loaded with a false dilemma. i believe that God would be a cause of refusal to repent. not the cause. if we reduce this to causal logic, you will see what i mean:

let:
N be volition to not repent
H be hardening of heart by God
S be the life of sin that is disdained by God

basic causality is:
If C then E; and
If not-C then not-E

the argument thus follows:
1. If C then E
2. C
3. Therefore E

the Bible teaches:
1. If S then H
2. S
3. Therefore H
(cf. Is. 6:9,10 in context; Rom. 1:18-24)

Also:
1. If H, then N
2. H
3. Therefore N
(cf. Is. 6:9,10 John 12:38-40)

But, from logic we know:
1. If C then E
2. If E then F
3. Therefore If C then F

Thus:
1. If S then H
2. If H then N
3. Therefore if S then N
4. S
5. Therefore N

so, what we end up with here is, the ultimate cause of the refusal to repent is the life of sin the natural man chooses to live in. God's hardening is technically a cause, but more in terms of an intermediary cause.

That seems like a fast and loose way of thinking through the issue to me. Does sin always lead to hardening? Maybe, but I don't think the verses you cited proved it. What about, for example, the apostle Paul? He was by his own admission the "chief of sinners" (regardless of the hyberbolic language) - and for this very reason he was shown mercy.

I Timothy 1
15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Thoughts?

[Sheepdog]

Today @ 12:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Gavin:

Sheepdog,



That seems like a fast and loose way of thinking through the issue to me. Does sin always lead to hardening? Maybe, but I don't think the verses you cited proved it. What about, for example, the apostle Paul? He was by his own admission the "chief of sinners" (regardless of the hyberbolic language) - and for this very reason he was shown mercy.

I Timothy 1
15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Thoughts?

good point, Gavin.

but then again, Paul was knocked out of his socks by Jesus, literally (eh, ok, i am exaggerating). so, it is likely possible that Jesus can and does overcome the hardening in people.

then again, the logic does not account for cases where C does exist without E. mainly, there is no case where E would exist without C. or so the causal logic goes. so then, i guess you are probably right as well.

[Johnny MacManky]

Would you agree to this statement: "God can become so angry at a person in this life, that he can cause them not to repent?

I am curious if arminians would agree to that. If the question is too vague, then feel free to avoid the poll and expand on your reasons for doing so and your own view.

Thanks!

Hi,

I'll stick my head above tha parapet and admit to being the 'Arminian' who was first to vote 'yes'. I'm not saying I'm right, just expressing my gut reaction.

The episode concerning Moses and Pharaoh sprang to mind as soon as I read the question. Ex. 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart. . .

I would qualify my answer by questioning whether it was 'anger' that motivated God to harden Pharaoh's heart. Irrespective, I have no problem with the concept of God considering that a person had used up all their 'chances' to accept God's Grace, to the extent that God would withdraw His preventient grace (that distinctive Wesleyan doctrine), thus making it impossible for that individual to repent.

Cheers

John