Letter to my friends and family

[Rusty T]

I just wanted to put this draft out there. I am going to give it out not because I think myself important enough to warrant a preemptive strike, but because I know that there will be many who will be disappointed with me, worried about me, etc. Anyway, if you think I shouldn't, etc. feel free to say so.

____________________________________________________________


Why I Am Considering Orthodox Christianity



This is to those I most care about: my family, my friends, and those who I have loved and who have loved me over my life. Thank you all for your support and prayers.


I know my spiritual life has been a confusing one – not only for me but also for everyone. However, I don’t think that I’m that unusual. I have always asked questions (ask Sis. Sandra – my first Sunday School teacher at First Assembly) and had an inquisitive mind about the things of God. It is this questioning that has led me down many a wrong road. I’m interested in going down another road, and before I do so I would like to express to everyone why I am doing it and where it may lead me.


Let me define first of all (in my own words) what I mean by Orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christians are often known by their ethnic origin: Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox. However, they are all part of one group of Christians that trace their foundation to Christ and His disciples. I do not have the time to defend this claim, but I will go into further detail with anyone who wishes. The Orthodox Church can truthfully claim to have an unbroken two thousand year tradition.


Most would be familiar with Roman Catholicism and some would compare the Orthodox Church with them. There are many, many similarities, but the split between the two Churches was in 1054 AD. The Orthodox do not hold the doctrine of papal supremacy/infallibility. They do not consider Mary a co-redemptrix (not that all Catholics do). They do not teach the immaculate conception of Mary, etc. In short, the Orthodox Church is not Roman Catholic.


There are many things that Orthodox do that will not sit well with many of you, however. I’ll go ahead and mention them now, so it doesn’t appear that I am trying to hide anything from you. Orthodox Christians have a hierarchy that they have inherited from the early years of the Church – they have Bishops, priests, deacons, etc. They venerate saints, the Virgin Mary, and icons. This does not mean they worship what they venerate; rather it is a respect and honor. The Orthodox do not consider the Church to be divided into those who are alive and those who are dead. Instead we are all in Christ. It is this belief that leads the Orthodox to ask the saints and Mary to pray for them. This seems strange to many. The Orthodox do not consider it any stranger than asking a friend down the street to pray for you. Icons to the Orthodox are windows to the spiritual. Can we pray without them? Yes. But they are spiritual in nature. They are not considered mere paintings, but rather they lift one’s soul to spiritual matters and to God.


There are many, many more traditions and beliefs that I won’t address here because I’m not writing this to defend Orthodox Christianity. I need to explain why I’m interested in it. First – the Orthodox Church teaches the same things that have been taught from the very beginning. Although the Orthodox Church is not perfect, it has held the doctrines and teachings it upholds for many centuries. This in itself does not guarantee that they are right, but I see an uncompromising stance on faith that is not found in many churches today.


Second – I believe historically, the Orthodox Church isright when it claims to have an unbroken succession from the apostles. Again, this in itself does not guarantee rightness but it does speak to me. Why? Mainly because of the confusion in the church-world today. There are over 30,000 denominations and sects of Christianity. Many of them hold vastly different opinions about spiritual and corporeal matters. Where is the Church that hell could not prevail against? Some would say that this Church consists of some mystical membership, but I believe it to be the Orthodox Church. This is quiet a claim, but I think the Orthodox Church can make it.


Third – the doctrines of the Church are ones that I am coming to embrace as right – not that I have the ability to judge what’s right and wrong, but I do have the ability to discern as best I can. Their teachings on the Lord’s Supper, the Church, the coming of the Lord, theosis (the goal of Christianity – oneness with God), liturgical worship, etc. I am in no means an expert on all of these dogmas. I am, however, deeply moved by them. I am encouraged by them. I am moved to a deeper relationship with God by them.


I believe most of the reasons I am considering the Orthodox Church can be found in the three reasons above. There is so much to talk about, but I don’t want to bore you. I will say that I love you all and I hope you can be patient with me as I “follow hard after God” (Psalm 63:8). I’ll be glad to discuss anything with anyone. I am not ashamed of seeking the Truth. I do not want to hurt feelings or relationships, so I will not be contentious or argumentative.

[themuzicman]

Q1: How do you communicate your desire for Mary and other dead saints to pray for you to them? Are they omnipresent? Are they omniaware? Do you just hope they happen to be in the room when you pray?

Q2: Do you agree with the Athenian creed (which is othodox) that those who have performed good works will go on to eternal life?

[Solly]

I note and approve that you don't get into saying, you are wrong and this is why, apart from the number of denominations. that is a good, calm letter, that leaves room for discussion, although shows that you have made your decision. it's a good guide to what i might have to do myself in the future.

[Rusty T]

Q1: How do you communicate your desire for Mary and other dead saints to pray for you to them? Are they omnipresent? Are they omniaware? Do you just hope they happen to be in the room when you pray?We ask them. How they hear? God knows. The saints are considered to be in theosis (perhaps George can answer this better) with God.


Q2: Do you agree with the Athenian creed (which is othodox) that those who have performed good works will go on to eternal life?
Do you mean the Athanasian creed?

[Ishmael]

I note and approve that you don't get into saying, you are wrong and this is why, apart from the number of denominations. that is a good, calm letter, that leaves room for discussion, although shows that you have made your decision. it's a good guide to what i might have to do myself in the future.

What are you converting too [sic]?

[Abigail]

It's 5pm in UK Ishmael, so Solly's off home and now we have to wait in suspense to hear his answer

[themuzicman]

Q1: Definition from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis)Theosis, deification, or divinization, is a doctrine developed in Eastern Orthodoxy, especially in the hesychast tradition. According to this teaching, Man is to become holy, godly, united with God as completely as it is possible for a created being to do so, somewhat in this life but consummately in the resurrection. This is not to be taken to mean that the Divine Nature of God will become united with the mortal nature of humanity: the ontological wall between the created and the Uncreated will not be torn down. The doctrine is analogous to the Western Christian doctrine of sanctification.

What aspect of theosis gives them the ability to hear everyone on earth who communicates with them?

Q2: Yes. (My fault. I can never remember how it's spelled.)

[Solly]

What are you converting too [sic]?

Just before i go...

I am moving in my Calvinism, away from traditional forms to a more progressive form, which will mean I will end up leaving the church I minister to in time, perhaps even by the end of the year. Plus I don't want to use the KJV anymore, or thee and thou in prayer, and all the other cultural habits that go with being in the denomination I am in. I've been influenced by Anabaptism, Gospel and Culture, Barth, Tweb, etc, and like a pastor friend of mine with whom I share a lot in common on these things, at times I find myself more comfortable dealing with liberal-evangelicals and evangelical-liberals than evangelicals themselves, not because of what they believe, but because the latter don't seem to want to learn or move from their shibboleths no matter how much you show them they are not in scripture. Evangelicalism is fossilizing in this country.
That's a different kind of move to you, but to me its a move into a wider world, a wider network, rather than the ghetto of churches that constitutes our denomination, fighting wars from 2 centuries ago, and living in fear of that big bad world out there.

[Rusty T]

What aspect of theosis gives them the ability to hear everyone on earth who communicates with them?
I don't know. I don't need to know. There probably are some great Orthodox explanations out there. I will look if you want me too. But the need to dissect the how of spirituality is not something that Orthodox Christianity is known for (hope that didn't come across wrongly)


Q2: Yes. (My fault. I can never remember how it's spelled.)
This is the very first line of the Athanasian Creed.

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith"

What exactly in the Creed are you asking about?

Tizzi

[themuzicman]

Q1: I should think that is a very important question to answer before trying to communicate with them. It still seems very much like prayer.

Q2:40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

Which does preceed #44, and appears to contradict it.

Michael

[JardinPrayer]

I thought the bible says we are all "saints" who believe and follow God. And, I also thought we had scripture specificially telling us we are forbidden to "contact the dead," which, with the exception of Mary, I believe all the "Saints" are.

I'm not being antagonistic...just don't see the practices you're tracing back to the apostles supported scripturally. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

[Rusty T]

Q1: I should think that is a very important question to answer before trying to communicate with them. It still seems very much like prayer.I should have said "the how of theology" in the Western sense. The "how" of spirituality is very important in Orthodoxy. Sorry for that. As far as it being important for me to answer the question - if it becomes something I must define, I will try my best.


Q2:40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

Which does preceed #44, and appears to contradict it.This is a paraphrasing of John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

tizzi

[Rusty T]

I thought the bible says we are all "saints" who believe and follow God. And, I also thought we had scripture specificially telling us we are forbidden to "contact the dead," which, with the exception of Mary, I believe all the "Saints" are.
I understand what you are saying. I am not an Orthodox theologian (are any?), but can I refer you to this article : http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8044.asp

This is not a debate thread, so I think I'm justified in linking since I'm not arguing by linking, merely referring. (I hope so)

[Soundsurfr]

I just wanted to put this draft out there. I am going to give it out not because I think myself important enough to warrant a preemptive strike, but because I know that there will be many who will be disappointed with me, worried about me, etc. Anyway, if you think I shouldn't, etc. feel free to say so.
To me it's disappointing that you would feel the need to write and publicly explain your choice of beliefs to others who might be "disappointed".

I am an atheist - a former christian - with three children. I've encouraged all three of them to explore religion objectively and make their own choices. All three of them are still in the process of doing that (they're all in their teens), and they're all on different paths right now. I can't imagine being angry or even "disappointed" with any of them for believing what they might believe and not believing what they might not believe. If they were to join a cult or some organization that placed them at odds with me or the rest of the family, that would be cause for concern, and I would I would certainly voice against it, but generally I think beliefs are personal, and we each come to our own in spite of the pressures or even the insistence of others.

Good luck in your orthodoxy.

[elysian]

In some ways I understand how you feel, Tizz. I essentially left the RC church when I was 15- when a CCD instructor explained that if you don't agree with the RC church then you aren't a Catholic. For me it wasn't anything personal against Catholics but it was conscience. I knew I was Christian but not Roman Catholic. After investigating several Christian denominations I became Lutheran which had its difficulties in my family. By tradition most of my family (especially my Dad's side) is Regular Baptist (more conservative than Southern Baptists, though similar.) So my Catholic mother -who is still Catholic- she's a convert and very much a practicing Catholic- at first had a hard time understanding why I could not remain Catholic. My sister, Dad and Grandma wondered why I didn't "go all the way" and become Baptist like them.

One POV that helped me and my relatives come to an understanding of sorts was C.S. Lewis' book Mere Christianity. Lewis explains that one of the reasons there are so many churches is because God's house has many rooms. Like rooms in a house, each church has a different emphasis and feel (even within denominations.) We are all in God's house but we are comfortable in our own room. I might prefer the kitchen (so apt for a Lutheran! :lol: :lol: ) but another might prefer the family room or a sun room. Some rooms are formal and ornate, some are casual and "come as you are." Some are noisy, some are quiet. But in God's House all believe: Jesus Christ is God's Son, one Person of the Triune God who became man and Who died to save us from sin.

Probably the most awkward aspect for me of becoming Lutheran (which in the Midwest at least has strong ethnic implications- I have some German ancestry but I also have a lot of English ancestry as well as some French and even Native American) is that typically people are "born into the church." Like Roman Catholics, we like to train our children into the faith very young. My son was three months old when he was baptized. It is unusual to be an adult convert, though I am blessed to be a part of a church that is demographically diverse and not an "ethnic preservation society." We have a high percentage of adult converts- as well as a good number of older children. We take evangelism seriously! Unfortunately many Lutheran churches do not. I hope moving beyond cultural preservation and ethnicity is a trend. Lutheranism is growing faster in Africa than anywhere else in the world but in the US the stereotype of Lutherans is that we're all little old German ladies.

If the Holy Spirit is leading you to Orthodoxy, then it is God's will for you, just as I believe that God has led me and continues to lead me to His truth and that He has landed me in the church where He wants me to be. :pray: :pray:

Your family and friends will understand, especially if they see the fruits of the Spirit in you. I know my mother was quite distressed when I decided to become Lutheran but over time she became tolerant and asked questions and now is even supportive. She has even gone to worship with me. Much of this has to do with the fact that my church has played an incredibly vital role in my life. I know that if God had not led me to my church (the local church I am a part of now) when He did I would not be among the living right now. The Holy Spirit has done many mighty works through my church and has blessed me beyond comprehension. You will know when you are where God wants you to be. Eventually your family and your friends will understand, and may even learn and grow from your example even if they do not become Orthodox. The goal of evangelism after all is to become God's instrument through which people become disciples of Christ!

Have courage and may God bring you to an understanding of His will for your life and vocation. :pray: :pray:

[Rusty T]

To me it's disappointing that you would feel the need to write and publicly explain your choice of beliefs to others who might be "disappointed". . . .
Thanks for the response. I know how you feel. But to many that I know, my abandoning a certain POV may equal abandonment of core values that they hold dear. This letter was not meant to be addressed to my Tweb friends - since I have been open with my journey to Orthodoxy. I wanted to put the draft out there to get some feedback before I give it privately to those I care about (how I will do that is yet to be seen). I guess you'd have to be in my shoes to understand why I feel it is necessary. Perhaps it is not.

tizzi

[Rusty T]

Have courage and may God bring you to an understanding of His will for your life and vocation. :pray: :pray:

Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

[Rusty T]

themuzicman,

Anything further about the Athanasian Creed? Will you retract your statements about it?
tizzi

[Rusty T]

For those who care;





Why I Am Considering Orthodox Christianity



This is to those I most care about: my family, my friends, and those who I have loved and who have loved me over my life. Thank you all for your support and prayers.



I know my spiritual life has been a confusing one – not only for me but also for everyone. However, I don’t think that I’m that unusual. I have always asked questions (ask Sis. Sandra – my first Sunday School teacher as First Assembly) and had an inquisitive mind about the things of God. It is this questioning that has admittedly led me down many a wrong road. Nevertheless, I must make one more journey - a journey to the ancient Church and its teachings. I wanted to take the time to explain to those I care most about why I am doing this and what it may mean.



Let me define first of all (in my own words) what I mean by Orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christians are often known by their ethnic origin: Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox. However, they are all part of one group of Christians that trace their foundation to Christ and His disciples. I do not have the time to defend this claim, but I will go into further detail with anyone who wishes. The Orthodox Church can truthfully claim to have an unbroken, two thousand year-old tradition.



Most would be familiar with Roman Catholicism and some would compare the Orthodox Church with them. Thought there are many, many similarities, the split between the two Churches was almost one thousand years ago. The Orthodox Church does not hold the doctrine of papal supremacy/infallibility. They do not consider Mary a co-redemptrix (not that all Catholics do). They do not teach the immaculate conception of Mary, etc. In short, the Orthodox Church is not Roman Catholic.



There are many things that Orthodox do that will not sit well with many of you, however. I’ll go ahead and mention them now, so it doesn’t appear that I am trying to hide anything from you. Orthodox Christians have a hierarchy that they have inherited from the early years of the Church – they have Bishops, priests, deacons, etc. They venerate saints, the Virgin Mary, and icons. This does not mean they worship what they venerate; rather it is a respect and honor. The Orthodox do not consider the Church to be divided into those who are alive and those who are dead. Instead we are all in Christ. It is this belief that leads the Orthodox to ask the saints and Mary to pray for them. This seems strange to many, but the Orthodox do not consider it any stranger than asking a friend to pray for them. Icons, to the Orthodox, are windows to heaven. Can we pray without them? Yes. But they are spiritual in nature. They are not considered mere paintings, but rather they lift one’s soul to spiritual matters and to God. Not only this, but icons tell the Gospel. This is why the Orthodox say the icons are ‘written’ and not ‘painted’.



There are many, many more traditions and beliefs that I won’t address here because I’m not writing this to defend Orthodox Christianity. I need to explain why I’m interested in it. First – the Orthodox Church teaches the same things that have been taught from the very beginning. Although the Orthodox Church is not perfect, it has held the same doctrines and teachings it for many centuries (they would say from the beginning). This in itself does not guarantee that they are right, but I see an uncompromising stance on faith that really appeals to me.



Second – I believe historically, the Orthodox Church isright when it claims to have an unbroken succession from the apostles. Again, this in itself does not guarantee rightness but it does speak to me. Where is the Church that hell could not prevail against? Some would say that this Church consists of some mystical membership, but I believe it to be the Orthodox Church. This is quiet a claim, but I think the Orthodox Church can make it.



Third – the doctrines of the Church are ones that I am coming to embrace as right – not that I have the ability to judge what’s right and wrong, but I do have the ability to discern as best I can. Their teachings on the Lord’s Supper, the Church, the coming of the Lord, theosis (the goal of Christianity – oneness with God), liturgical worship, etc. I am in no means an expert on all of these dogmas. I am, however, deeply moved by them. I am encouraged by them. They move me to a deeper relationship with God.



I believe most of the reasons I am considering the Orthodox Church can be found in the three reasons above. There is so much to talk about, but I don’t want to bore you. I will say that I love you all and I hope you can be patient with me as I “follow hard after God” (Psalm 63:8). I’ll be glad to discuss anything with anyone. I am not ashamed of seeking the Truth. I do not want to hurt feelings or relationships, so I will not be contentious or argumentative.