Making prayer requests to Saints

[themuzicman]

By what means to the dead saints (and Mary) hear prayer requests? Are they omniscient? Omnipresent? Omniaware? Or do you just hope the one you're making the request of happens to be in the room and hear you?

What if 100 people are making requests to the same saint at the same time? or 1,000? or 1,000,000? (Considering the number of Catholics, that's not unrealistic.) How does Mary answer all those requests?

Michael

[Amazing Rando]

By what means to the dead saints (and Mary) hear prayer requests? Are they omniscient? Omnipresent? Omniaware? Or do you just hope the one you're making the request of happens to be in the room and hear you?

What if 100 people are making requests to the same saint at the same time? or 1,000? or 1,000,000? (Considering the number of Catholics, that's not unrealistic.) How does Mary answer all those requests?

Michael

Now Muz, I'm just as suspicious of saint prayer as you are, but I think it's important to understand where they're coming from and how they perceive it. It's been explained to me that it's exactly like asking your family, friends, or church to pray for you. That what they're doing is asking Mary, St. Peter, etc. to petition God on their behalf.

[themuzicman]

But with friends and family, you have to either physically go where they are, or use some form of communication, such as a phone, email, etc.


I want to know what form of communication they use to get their request to the saint in question, and how that saint handles receiving thousands or millions of requests every day!

Michael

[Amazing Rando]

But with friends and family, you have to either physically go where they are, or use some form of communication, such as a phone, email, etc.


I want to know what form of communication they use to get their request to the saint in question, and how that saint handles receiving thousands or millions of requests every day!

Michael

Those are good questions I can't answer! Just gotta wait for a knowledgable Catholic or Orthodox person to show up!

[Rusty T]

Perhaps she petitions the Lord to bless all those who are asking for her prayers . . . not unreasonable. But again, this is a question that I don't need an answer for.

tizzi

[themuzicman]

Would God, then, say something like this: "You know, Mary, I didn't realize that tizzidale was short on cash this month. Thanks for bringing this to my attention! I'll get right on it!"

Or like this: "You know, I was going to let tizzidale go broke this month, because her brokeness in that situation would bring her closer to me, but dear old Mary came and asked if I could help her out. I never could say 'no' to Mary..."

Point being that if we think that a saint praying for us is going to somehow get God to do something other than what He was going to do before, we either deny his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, or his eternal goodness and infinite wisdom!

So, if we're going to confirm that these things exist, do we honestly believe that an honorable mention from a saint or from Mary would make God do something better?

Michael

[Rusty T]

Would God, then, say something like this: "You know, Mary, I didn't realize that tizzidale was short on cash this month. Thanks for bringing this to my attention! I'll get right on it!"

Or like this: "You know, I was going to let tizzidale go broke this month, because her brokeness in that situation would bring her closer to me, but dear old Mary came and asked if I could help her out. I never could say 'no' to Mary..."

Point being that if we think that a saint praying for us is going to somehow get God to do something other than what He was going to do before, we either deny his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, or his eternal goodness and infinite wisdom!

So, if we're going to confirm that these things exist, do we honestly believe that an honorable mention from a saint or from Mary would make God do something better?

MichaelI could make the same arguments about making requests for prayer of my friend down the street. Is God going to [insert action here] just because. . . yada yada yada.

James 5:16-18 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the earth yielded its harvest. (NRSV)

[Amazing Rando]

I gotta go with Tizzy there. Prayer does things. I don't know how, but prayer is powerful.

[Xmansmommy]

By what means to the dead saints (and Mary) hear prayer requests? Are they omniscient? Omnipresent? Omniaware? Or do you just hope the one you're making the request of happens to be in the room and hear you?

What if 100 people are making requests to the same saint at the same time? or 1,000? or 1,000,000? (Considering the number of Catholics, that's not unrealistic.) How does Mary answer all those requests?

Michael

I've often wondered the same thing about God. :nsm:

[VFarris01]

(5) And when you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the open streets so that they may be seen of men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. (6) But you, when you pray, enter into your room and shutting your door, pray to your Father (God, VF01) in secret. And your Father (God, VF01) seeing in secret will repay you in the open. (7) But when you pray, do not be babbling vain words, as the nations; for they think that they shall be heard in their much speaking. (8) Then do not be like them, for your Father (God, VF01) knows what things you have need of before you ask Him.

There is no precident in the Bible of prayer to saints. There is only one to whom we are to pray... God.

[Rusty T]

We [I] do not pray to saints. We ask for their prayers.

[VFarris01]

We do not pray to saints. We ask for their prayers.There is no precident in the Bible of asking dead saints to pray for us. There is only one we need ask... God.

[Rusty T]

You ask God to pray for you? Don't you ask friends, pastor, confidante? The Orthodox Church teach that there is a continuity in the body of Christ. There is a great cloud of witnesses who are indeed in God. Of course, this question, like so many will eventually come down to authority, and I don't want to argue.

tizzi

[themuzicman]

I could make the same arguments about making requests for prayer of my friend down the street. Is God going to [insert action here] just because. . . yada yada yada.

The difference is that God could speak to that friend to do something specific on your behalf, either through encouragement or a specific or doing something that is key to your situation. Saints aren't going to be able to do that.

Michael

[VFarris01]

You ask God to pray for you?No. God is the one to whom I pray.
We ask Him (JC, VF01) to intercede on our behalf.
There is no precident in the Bible of asking the dead to pray for us, only the living are to "relay" prayers.
There is only one mediator... Jesus Christ.

(5) For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus, (6) the One having given Himself a ransom on behalf of all, the testimony to be given in its own time, (7) to which I was appointed a herald and apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie), a teacher of the nations, in faith and truth. (8) Therefore, I desire the men to pray in every place, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting.Don't you ask friends, pastor, confidante?Certainly... there is Bible precident for this practice; the verses are legion.The Orthodox Church teach that there is a continuity in the body of Christ. There is a great cloud of witnesses who are indeed in God. Of course, this question, like so many will eventually come down to authority, and I don't want to argue.What is your point?

[Ramonda]

By what means to the dead saints (and Mary) hear prayer requests? Are they omniscient? Omnipresent? Omniaware? Or do you just hope the one you're making the request of happens to be in the room and hear you?

What if 100 people are making requests to the same saint at the same time? or 1,000? or 1,000,000? (Considering the number of Catholics, that's not unrealistic.) How does Mary answer all those requests?

Michael

Well, you must have a different definition of dead and the afterlife than I do. While I no longer belong to a church that prays to saints and Mary, the belief of that religion is that they are very much alive though different than living in the physical. If I recall, they were defined as being capable of helping those who do pray because they "are in heaven with God". I didn't pray to saints because I could never remember which one did what so I went directly to God. Yet I have seen people who have had results praying to saints. I think prayer from the heart, always gets good results.

[Jude3b]

By what means to the dead saints (and Mary) hear prayer requests? Are they omniscient? Omnipresent? Omniaware? Or do you just hope the one you're making the request of happens to be in the room and hear you?

What if 100 people are making requests to the same saint at the same time? or 1,000? or 1,000,000? (Considering the number of Catholics, that's not unrealistic.) How does Mary answer all those requests?

Michael

Praying to the "so-called" saints of Romanism won't do you any good! "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Tim. 2:5)

[Jezz]

By what means to the dead saints (and Mary) hear prayer requests? Are they omniscient? Omnipresent? Omniaware? Or do you just hope the one you're making the request of happens to be in the room and hear you?

What if 100 people are making requests to the same saint at the same time? or 1,000? or 1,000,000? (Considering the number of Catholics, that's not unrealistic.) How does Mary answer all those requests?
My answer: I have no idea. It's a mystery.

Point being that if we think that a saint praying for us is going to somehow get God to do something other than what He was going to do before, we either deny his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, or his eternal goodness and infinite wisdom!

So, if we're going to confirm that these things exist, do we honestly believe that an honorable mention from a saint or from Mary would make God do something better?
Allow me to rewrite the above, with a few minor substitutions:

Point being that if we think that praying to God is going to somehow get God to do something other than what He was going to do before, we either deny his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, or his eternal goodness and infinite wisdom!

So, if we're going to confirm that these things exist, do we honestly believe that a prayer to God would make God do something better?
As tizzidale pointed out (and I have just made more explicit), this particular objection against requests of intercession to the saints is a double-edged sword that would make all prayer ineffective and pointless. It would also make asking friends/rellies to pray for you pointless as well.

The purpose of prayer is not to change God's mind. It's to change ours. I suspect (but this is speculation, because as I said above it's a mystery) that asking for the prayers of the saints is in much the same vein - the primary purpose being for us to focus on their righteousness as an example of God's grace and of what we should aspire to. I think that the saints will be praying for us regardless of our asking for it anyway.

[themuzicman]

Well, you must have a different definition of dead and the afterlife than I do. While I no longer belong to a church that prays to saints and Mary, the belief of that religion is that they are very much alive though different than living in the physical. If I recall, they were defined as being capable of helping those who do pray because they "are in heaven with God". I didn't pray to saints because I could never remember which one did what so I went directly to God. Yet I have seen people who have had results praying to saints. I think prayer from the heart, always gets good results.


But the question is "How do they hear you? How do they receive your request for them to pray?"

[themuzicman]

My answer: I have no idea. It's a mystery.

You're kidding... All this devotion to communcating with saints, and you don't even know if they're getting the message?

Allow me to rewrite the above, with a few minor substitutions:

Point being that if we think that praying to God is going to somehow get God to do something other than what He was going to do before, we either deny his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, or his eternal goodness and infinite wisdom!

The difference is that God responds. This has been my pet peeve about prayer for many years, now.

So, if we're going to confirm that these things exist, do we honestly believe that a prayer to God would make God do something better?[/box]

I believe that God instructs us to do something better.

As tizzidale pointed out (and I have just made more explicit), this particular objection against requests of intercession to the saints is a double-edged sword that would make all prayer ineffective and pointless. It would also make asking friends/rellies to pray for you pointless as well.

Except that friends can have a direct impact on your life, by an encouraging word, or following God's will here, on your behalf! What's a dead saint going to do?

The purpose of prayer is not to change God's mind. It's to change ours. I suspect (but this is speculation, because as I said above it's a mystery) that asking for the prayers of the saints is in much the same vein - the primary purpose being for us to focus on their righteousness as an example of God's grace and of what we should aspire to. I think that the saints will be praying for us regardless of our asking for it anyway.

So, you try to communicate with saints, not knowing whether it does you a lick of good, and the only reason to do so is so that you can imitate them instead of Christ?

This seems to be a very large pill to swallow with zero benefit.

Michael

[Rusty T]

I recommended this article in another thread, but decided to post from it. (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8044.asp)


THE CONCEPT OF THEOSIS

The ultimate goal of the saint is to imitate God and live the life of deification (theosis). St. Maximos the Confessor (seventh century) writes that the saints are men who have reached theosis; they have avoided unnatural development of the soul, that is, sin, and tried to live the natural way of life (i.e., living according to created nature), turning and looking always towards God, thus achieving total unity with God through the Holy Spirit (On Theology, 7.73).

It may be stated here that the Saints are first of all "friends" of God. Secondly, through their genuine piety and absolute obedience to God, they pleased Him and have therefore been "sanctified" both in soul and body, and subsequently glorified in this world. Third, they have been accepted in God's bosom after their passing from the world into eternal life. Fourth, many of them have been given special "grace" or "favor" to perform miracles either before their departure from this world or after. Fifth, they have been granted the special gift to pray and intercede for those still living in this world and fighting the "good fight" for the glory of God and their own perfection in Christ. This intercession springs from the fact that they also are part of the "Communion of Saints". They share prayers and good works with Christians on earth and there is a constant interaction and unity between the glorified saints in Heaven and Christians who still live in the world.



THE INTERCESSION OF THE SAINTS

The fact that Christians ask the prayers of saints and their intercession is prefigured in the New Testament. St. Paul asks the Christian Ephesians, Thessalonians, Colossians and Romans to pray for him (Ephes. 6:19, 1 Thesal. 5:25; Colos. 4:3, and Rom. 15:30-31). In every Liturgy, we ask God the Father to accept, on our behalf, "the prayers and the intercession" of all the Saints who now live in heaven. The Fathers of the Church also accept as a matter of course the prayers and the intercession of all the saints.

In one of his letters, St. Basil (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/) explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God (Letter 360). Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs, who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that "they are common friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent prayers" (Chapter 8). St. Gregory of Nyssa (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/) asks St. Theodore the Martyr "to fervently pray to our Common King, our God, for the country and the people" (Encomium to Martyr Theodore). The same language is used by St. Gregory the Theologian in his encomium to St. Cyprian (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-history.html#Cyprian). St. John Chrysostom says that we should seek the intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have special "boldness" (parresia), before God. (Gen. 44:2 and Encomium to Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).

THE VENERATION OF THE SAINTS

In the Orthodox Church the worship (latreia) given to God is completely different from the honor (tim) of love (agape) and respect, or even veneration (proskynesis), "paid to all those endowed with some dignity" (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. III, 40). The Orthodox honor the saints to express their love and gratitude to God, who has "perfected" the saints. As St. Symeon the New Theologian writes, "God is the teacher of the Prophets, the co-traveller with the Apostles, the power of the Martyrs, the inspiration of the Fathers and Teachers, the perfection of all Saints ... " (Catechesis, I).



Throughout early Christianity, Christians customarily met in the places where the martyrs had died, to build churches in their honor, venerate their relics and memory, and present their example for imitation by others. Interesting information on this subject derives from the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (gopher://ccat.sas.upenn.edu:3333/00/Religious/ChurchWriters/ApostolicFathers/Martyrdom_Polycarp)(ch. 17-18), according to which the early Christians reverently collected the remains of the saints and honored them "more than precious stones." They also met on the day of their death to commemorate "their new birthday, the day they entered into their new life, in Heaven." To this day the Orthodox have maintained the liturgical custom of meeting on the day of the saint's death, of building churches honoring their names, and of paying special respect to their relics and icons. The Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.), in summarizing this practice of the Church, declares that "we adore and respect God our Lord; and those who have been genuine servants of our common Lord we honor and venerate because they have the power to make us friends with God the King of all."

The feast days and the celebrations honoring the saints had become a common practice by the fourth century. The twentieth canon of the Council of Gangra in Asia Minor (between the years 325 and 381) anathematizes those who reject the feast days of the saints. So great was the esteem in which the Apostles, prophets, and martyrs were held in the Church, that many writings appeared describing their spiritual achievements, love and devotion to God.

Together with the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (gopher://ccat.sas.upenn.edu:3333/00/Religious/ChurchWriters/ApostolicFathers/Martyrdom_Polycarp), information on the veneration of the Saints derives from the Martyrdom of the Martyrs of Scilli, a small town in North Africa (end of the second century). The list of sources indudes St. Athanasius' Life of St. Anthony (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/NPNF2-04/c10.1.htm); St. Basil's Homily honoring the "Forty Martyrs"; Gregory of Nyssa's Homily honoring St. Theodore; St. John Chrysostom also delivered a considerable number of sermons dedicated to the Martyrs of the Church.



The Fathers, and all early Christians in general, paid especially great respect to the relics of the martyrs. In addition to the sources already mentioned, Eusebius of Caesarea (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/), the Church historian, says that "those who suffered for the glory of Christ always have fellowship with the living God" (Church History, 5:1). In the Apostolic Constitutions (5:1) the martyrs are called "brothers of the Lord" and "vessels of the Holy Spirit." This helps to explains the special honor and respect which the Church paid to the relics of the martyrs. St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Cyril of Jerusalem (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/), and St. John Chrysostom (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/) remind us that the relics of the martyrs "are filled with spiritual grace," that even their tombs are filled with a special "blessing." This Patristic practice still continues today, and people from all over the world visit churches that possess the relics of martyrs and saints. Also, according to the ancient tradition, the consecration of new churches takes place with the deposition of holy relics in the Holy Table of the sanctuary.

Great controversies have occured in the past over the special honor due to the icons of Christ as well as those of the saints of the Church. The Iconclastic controversies which began in Byzantium in the seventh century shook the entire church. The Fathers of the Church, however, declared quite clearly that the honor belongs to the "prototype" and not to the material image of Christ or the Saints. The Acts of the Fourth session of the Seventh Ecumenical Council at Nicaea (787 A.D.) illuminate this particular point:



"We accept (aspazometha) the word of the Lord and his Apostles through which we have been taught to honor (timan) and magnify (megalynein) in the first place Her who is properly and truly the Mother of God (Theotokos) and exalted above all the heavenly Powers; also the holy and angelic Powers; the blessed and all-lauded Apostles; and the glorious Prophets and the triumphant Martyrs who fought for Christ; holy and God fearing Doctors, and all holy men; to seek their intercession (presveies), to make us at home with the all-royal God of all, so long as we keep his commandments and strive to live virtuously. Moreover we accept (aspazometha) the image of the honorable and life-giving Cross, and the holy relics of the saints; and we receive the holy and venerable images; we accept them and we embrace them, according to the ancient traditions of the Holy Catholic Church of God, that is to say our holy Fathers, who also received these things and established them in all the most holy Churches of God and in every place of His dominion. These honorable and venerable images, as has been said, we honor, accept and reverently venerate (timitikosproskynoumen): the image of the incarnation of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, and that of our immaculate Lady, the all-holy Mother of God, from whom he pleased to take flesh and to save and deliver us from all impious idolatry; also the images of the holy and incorporeal Angels, who appeared to the just as men. Likewise we also venerate the figures and the effigies (morphas, eikonismata) of the divine and all-lauded Apostles, the God-speaking Prophets, and the suffering martyrs and holy men, so that through their representations (anazografiseos) we may be able to be led back in memory and recollections to the prototype, and participate in their holiness"

(Nicene and Post–Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/), Vol 14, p. 541).

The early Christians used to meet on the name-day of a saint, which in practice usually was the day of his death. These gatherings took place either around the tomb of the saint or in the church, which kept and preserved his holy relics, or in churches with great historical and theological significance. Such a gathering, called a feast-day or festival (Panegyris), commemorates the memory of the saint. The faithful participate in these feasts to listen to an encomiastic speech praising the deeds or the martyrdom of the venerated saint, and in general to derive spiritual profit. An interesting description is that of the panegris of St. Thekla of Seleucia in Asia Minor (mid-fifth century), and of St. Demetrios in Thessalonica, Greece (twelfth century). The Church Fathers and the canons of the Church accepted this type of gathering, which still takes place, but they strongly warn against the "commercialization of such festivals" (Speros Vryonis, Jr., "The Panegyris of the Byzantine Saint," The Byzantine Saint, 1981).

The Orthodox Church gives a special place to the honor and veneration of the Virgin Mary the Mother of God, the Angels, and St. John the Baptist. Concerning the Virgin Mary, as Mother of God, suffice it to say that the Third Ecumenical Council in Ephesus (431 A.D.) officially adopted the term Theotokos in her honor. There is a period of fasting (the first 14 days of August) and numerous feasts and hymns dedicated to her. Her image is traditionally painted above the Sanctuary and called "more spacious than the heavens" (Platytera). The Virgin Mary, being the mother of God, earnestly intercedes for us, for she gave her flesh to Christ in all humility and obedience, so that the Word of God could become man.



The Orthodox believe the angels to be incorporeal beings, created by God before the actual creation. They are immortal, not by nature but by the grace of God, and are called "second lights," the first light being God Himself. Their nature was originally changeable, but after the Incarnation of Christ, the angels were considered as saved (sesosmenoi) and, therefore, unaltered. The Fathers believed that every believer has his own "guardian angel"; the angels pray for us, sing, and unceasingly glorify the Holy Trinity. They also serve as examples that people should follow.

St. John the Baptist, whose icon is found on the Iconostasis of all Orthodox churches, was the prophet who baptized Christ and prepared His coming on earth; yet he suffered martyrdom for his holiness and obedience to the will of God. The Church has five feasts in honor of St. John the Baptist.

CANONIZATION OF SAINTS

The Orthodox Church does not follow any official procedure for the "recognition" of saints. Initially the Church accepted as saints those who had suffered martyrdom for Christ. The saints are saints thanks to the grace of God, and they do not need official ecclesiastical recognition. The Christian people, reading their lives and witnessing their performance of miracles, accept and honor them as saints. St. John Chrysostom, persecuted and exiled by the civil and ecclesiastical authorities, was accepted as a saint of the Church by popular acclaim. St. Basil the Great was accepted immediately after his death as a saint of the Church by the people. Recently, in order to avoid abuses, the Ecumenical Patriarchate (http://www.patriarchate.org/) has issued special encyclical letters (tomoi) in which the Holy Synod "recognizes" or accepts the popular feelings about a saint. Such an example in our days is St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain (1955).

Since the early Christian period there have been preserved many moving descriptions of the lives and martyrdoms and the miracles of the saints. They were (and still are) called synaxaria (from the Greek word Synaxis, meaning a meeting in the church for liturgical purposes, where the lives of the Saints were read). St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain composed synaxaria of the saints during the eighteenth century; and, most recently, Fr. George Poulos and Dr. Constantine Cavarnos have written lives of the saints in English.

[themuzicman]

Did you notice that the only actual scripture cited there was for people still here on earth praying for others, whom they would have later contact with?

The rest is just traditions of men.

Michael

[Maxentius]

...Of course, this question, like so many will eventually come down to authority, and I don't want to argue.

tizzi

Yes, it does always come down to authority. I think that people should realize that unless the other person accepts your source of authority, an argument from that authority does not hold any water. Picture a Muslim quoting the Koran to "prove" that Jesus is not God. I do not accept the authority of the Koran so the argument is not valid.

It is also not necessary for us to understand how a saint could hear our petitions for their prayers for them to have the ability to do so.

It is also not true that just because the Bible does not explicitly say we should do something, that it is necessarily forbidden.

(ed. fixed stoooopid spelling error)

[Rusty T]

That is why I have said before that this question, like many others will come down to the question of Authority. However, there is in the deuterocanonical book of 2 Maccabees the instance of the vision of Isaiah praying for Israel. But, again, the issue will eventually come down (as it has) to some saying, "If it's not in the Bible, then it can't be right." And others who say, "It is taught by the Church throughout it's history, so it must be right."

tizzi

[themuzicman]

It is also not necessary for us to understand how a saint could hear our petitions for their prayers for them t ohave the ability to do so.

However, the corrilary theology that may result from assumptions about how could be very weird, indeed.

Like burying a statue of the virgin Mary upside down in your back yard to help sell your house faster... :doh: (Yes, there are lots of those.)

I mean, I could do a rain dance to St. Polycarp, in order to get him to ask for rain. It's not forbidden in scripture, is it?

Michael

[Maxentius]

However, the corrilary theology that may result from assumptions about how could be very weird, indeed.

Like burying a statue of the virgin Mary upside down in your back yard to help sell your house faster... :doh: (Yes, there are lots of those.)

I mean, I could do a rain dance to St. Polycarp, in order to get him to ask for rain. It's not forbidden in scripture, is it?

Michael

Yes, I have seen and heard some silly things like that! But in their defense, the abuse of a thing does not preclude the use of it. If we assume for argument's sake that saint prayers do indeed work, the rest would be just the traditions of men added to the valid concept of saint prayer. It does not make saint prayer wrong per se.

That is also why I have some problems with Tradition as a source for doctrine, but that is for another thread. :smile:

[Findo]

Perhaps the question should be asked.. what is prayer?

Is it to change God's mind and get Him to do what we want, or is it for us to align ourselves with His will? If we look at the Lord's prayer, ther requests made are either already in line with God's promises (daily bread - supplying needs; forgiveness; deliverance from evil) or asking to be aligned with His will (on earth as it is in Heaven).

So how does asking saints to pray for you do this?

[Ramonda]

But the question is "How do they hear you? How do they receive your request for them to pray?"

How does God hear you? If you can have a God that hears you that is unseen by anybody else, then that same God is capable of giving angels or saints the ability to answer prayers?

[themuzicman]

Yes, I have seen and heard some silly things like that! But in their defense, the abuse of a thing does not preclude the use of it. If we assume for argument's sake that saint prayers do indeed work, the rest would be just the traditions of men added to the valid concept of saint prayer. It does not make saint prayer wrong per se.

That is also why I have some problems with Tradition as a source for doctrine, but that is for another thread. :smile:

But what does it say about our view of God, if we don't trust Him to do what is best, and want someone we think God thinks is special to try to get God to do something other than what His eternal wisdom would have for us?

IMHO, it creates false gods from saints, because of what effect we think they can have on God.

Michael

[Ramonda]

Praying to the "so-called" saints of Romanism won't do you any good! "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Tim. 2:5)

Why have any mediator? Why not just got to God? I do. Many people do.

[themuzicman]

Jesus IS God.

[Maxentius]

But what does it say about our view of God, if we don't trust Him to do what is best, and want someone we think God thinks is special to try to get God to do something other than what His eternal wisdom would have for us?

IMHO, it creates false gods from saints, because of what effect we think they can have on God.

Michael

This is what happens when we try to pierce God's divine majesty and boil it down into syllogisms. Simply stated, we are told to pray for our needs, and we are told to pray for each other as well as our enemies. Why? Scripture does not say why as such, but I have some ideas.

He is trustworthy of course, and for what ever reason he wants us to pray and ask others to pray for us. Why not leave it at that and let God be God? Sola Scriptura means we should refrain from speculating about things we do not understand and which he did not reveal to us.

If we follow what you said, we should not ask anyone to pray for us. Why should you ask a fellow believer to petition God on your behalf? Do I make my friends into gods whenI ask them to pray for me? No.

Do I see things I would call idolatry when I see some people pray to/through saints? Yes I do. But that by itself does not mean the teaching is wrong. People misuse the Bible to justify their racial or other political nonsense, is the Bible now useless? Of course not. The abuse of a thing does not preclude the proper use of it.

[themuzicman]

One item that just came to mind:

In the Ancient Near East (ANE), the culture around the Israelites worshipped gods at various levels. There were the big gods, who were supposedly too busy for all but the most important. There were national gods who oversaw nations, regional gods, and, finally, personal gods. Frequently, people selected personal gods and dedicated an area or room to this god, erecting an idol and praying to it, not necessarily thinking that it will be able to do much, but that it may have some pull with the more important gods, and pass the message along.

THis is the setting for God's declaration that "You have no other gods before me." God is saying that while he is the big cahuna God, He also wants to be Israel's national God, regional God, and personal God.

In fact, this is the nature of the sin of worshipping idols for which Israel was judged. It wasn't that they specifically denied that Yahweh ever existed, but that they began to worship this regional and personal gods, hoping that they'd have some pull with the Big God, Yahweh.

Does all this sound familliar?

You have patron saints of doctors, nurses, luck, miners, etc., and then you have the bigger saints and Mary, and the purpose of "requesting that they pray" is to get the message into the big cahuna, who is presumably too busy to hear you.

No, the bible isn't specific about not "requesting" prayer from a dead saint. However, this is the kind of thing that led Israel astray, and into judgment.

You sure you want to be following that pattern?

Michael

[George Blaisdell]

Did you notice that the only actual scripture cited there was for people still here on earth praying for others, whom they would have later contact with?

The rest is just traditions of men.


Paul writes "We hold the mystery of the faith in a purified conscience," and "We have the mind [nous] of Christ." He is speaking of saints still upon the earth, of course, of those who are mature in the faith, who have attained purity of heart in deeds, who have alreaddy resisted sin unto blood [their own], whose souls are God bearing, whose touch can heal body and soul... These people are alive in Christ in ways that the likes of you and I may get lucky enough to encounter once or twice in our lifetimes, but outside of that, we can only know that they exist, for we will not understand them, until and unless we live our lives as they do, in maturity of the faith. Most of us have no idea what that even is, but the early Christians do... And Paul sure did, for he was one...

And these saints who are mature in the faith and breathe God in constant remembrance of Him and live lives in actions that are turned from the world and unto God end up dead just like the rest of us will, yet in our unrepentant living, we just die, for we never truely came alive, yet the saints did come alive in Christ, and lived that life in the Holy Spirit, and Christ in them lives as the new creature that they now are, and when they die, what do you think? Does Christ in them pull out and leave them with their corpse? Are they just put in cold storage till the final judgement? The ones who have lived faithful and God-bearing lives unto maturity in the faith? Are they just numbered among the dead?

Not in the early Church they aren't... They go on living, and Christ in them goes on living... Their purity of heart that knows only God goes on... They are a art of the household of God, and that does not stop with their physical death - Indeed, they have died to their physical selves long before their bodies died... Yet the are alive in Christ, and Christ does not die, and neither do they.

The early Church recognized this, and remember, it is the Church that is the ground and pillar of truth, and not the traditions of individual men, but the communion of the Church, and this is witten in the Bible that the Church wrote for its faithful at the direction of the breath of God within some of these very God-bearing saints that you may think are but dead meat in cold storage...

The alternative to the tradition of men, which believes that the dead are dead and forget about them, is the Tradition of the Pillar and Grund of Truth, the Holy Body of Christ Whi is its Had, the apostolic Church born of the Holy Spirit sent by Christ to the apostles...

That Life doesn't die with the grave, for as Paul writes: "To live is Christ, and to die is GAIN..."

geo-Arsenios

[themuzicman]

Maybe you can answer the original question, then, George:

How do the saints receive our communication for a request for prayer? Are they omniscient? And how do they handle thousands or millions of requests every day?

They appear to have taken on some deity. They haven't become... little gods... have they?

Michael

[Rusty T]

2 Peter 1:3-4 His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.

John 10:34-36 Jesus answered, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'? If those to whom the word of God came were called 'gods' --and the scripture cannot be annulled-- can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

[themuzicman]

So, you're saying that saints ARE little gods? Or that we all become gods when we die? (FYI, the JOhn 10 passage is citing Psalms, which refers to some Israelites, not the saints.)

Michael

[Rusty T]

I'm saying that the saints through Theosis, come into one-ness with God that is a mystery. They retain their individuality, but they are partakers of the divine nature of God. How they hear our prayers, interact with us, etc. are not questions that are easily answered or have to be.

tizzi

p.s.

If it refers to 'some Israelites' , how much more the saints?

[themuzicman]

I'm saying that the saints through Theosis, come into one-ness with God that is a mystery. They retain their individuality, but they are partakers of the divine nature of God. How they hear our prayers, interact with us, etc. are not questions that are easily answered or have to be.


So, in spite of a lack of scriptures that say anything at all about praying to saints, a pattern condemned by God in the OT of routing your requests through another entity, and a vague reference to partaking with the divine nature, you create a doctrine that says that people should request that saints pray for them?

That is a hermeneutical and theological model that is just asking for trouble. What's next? Rain and snow dances to get God to bring rain or prevent snow?


If it refers to 'some Israelites' , how much more the saints?

How much more? So, we're going to take scripture that say good thing about Israelites and attribute them to saints, now? This is VERY poor hermeutical form. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the author of psalms could have been referring to saints that lived after Christ.

(FYI, in Hebrew, Elohim doesn't refer strictly to gods. The Jews interpreted it this way, because it suited their purposes, and Jesus was using their error to show how hypocritical they were being in rejecting Him, because He claimed to be God.)

Michael

[Rusty T]

So, in spite of a lack of scriptures that say anything at all about praying to saints, a pattern condemned by God in the OT of routing your requests through another entity, and a vague reference to partaking with the divine nature, you create a doctrine that says that people should request that saints pray for them?That is a hermeneutical and theological model that is just asking for trouble. What's next? Rain and snow dances to get God to bring rain or prevent snow?
The Orthodox Church does not 'create doctrine' and do not add to nor take away. It is the FAITH handed down to the Church and held without sway for two-thousand years. You should ask why the sudden urge to stop praying to saints only emerged during the Protest movement against the Catholic church. The fact remains that the Church has held this practice dear to her heart.

How much more? So, we're going to take scripture that say good thing about Israelites and attribute them to saints, now? This is VERY poor hermeutical form. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the author of psalms could have been referring to saints that lived after Christ.
No possible way?

(FYI, in Hebrew, Elohim doesn't refer strictly to gods. The Jews interpreted it this way, because it suited their purposes, and Jesus was using their error to show how hypocritical they were being in rejecting Him, because He claimed to be God.)
I am aware of why Jesus used the quote.

[themuzicman]

The Orthodox Church does not 'create doctrine' and do not add to nor take away. It is the FAITH handed down to the Church and held without sway for two-thousand years. You should ask why the sudden urge to stop praying to saints only emerged during the Protest movement against the Catholic church. The fact remains that the Church has held this practice dear to her heart.

Actually, it started when Guttenberg invented the printing press, and the people began to read the bible for themselves, instead of having the establishment tell them what it says.

No possible way?

No. The Psalms were written at least 500 years before the birth of Christ.

Michael

[Rusty T]

That may be the first time that I've read that about the Psalms - not that they were written 500 years before Christ - but that they somehow don't apply because of that.

But anyway. Like I said, it comes down to Authority, ultimately. Did it take Guttenberg to preserve the faith? Or is that the job of the Church?

tizzi

[themuzicman]

That may be the first time that I've read that about the Psalms - not that they were written 500 years before Christ - but that they somehow don't apply because of that.

I didn't say taht they didn't apply. You're putting words in my mouth, now.

What I said was the that writer of Psalms could not possibly have been referring to the saints that the EO and RCC have venerated.

But anyway. Like I said, it comes down to Authority, ultimately. Did it take Guttenberg to preserve the faith? Or is that the job of the Church?

tizzi

It took putting the Word of God into the hands of the CHURCH to see the error that the papacy of the church had fallen into.

Michael

[Rusty T]

The Eastern Orthodox are not Roman Catholics. The first things many Eastern Orthodox missionaries did was to put the writings of the Church into the language of the people. Put away the broad brush.

tizzi

[themuzicman]

The Eastern Orthodox are not Roman Catholics. The first things many Eastern Orthodox missionaries did was to put the writings of the Church into the language of the people.

tizzi

However, scripture was not widely available to the people so they could read for themselves (as the Bereans did) to see if what the church leadership was saying was true!

Only when the scriptures themselves were widely availble to the Church could the church see how far into error their leadership had gone.

Michael

[Rusty T]

One does not have to "read the scripture for themselves" in order to be a Christian. If you'd ever attend an Orthodox service I think you'd be surprised at the amount of scripture that is in the liturgy and other services. One wouldn't have to be literate in order to participate in the mysteries of God. I am not saying that illiteracy is preferable - in fact all Orthodox churches I know of encourage personal study of the Bible - but not private interpretation. The Church is the repository of Truth and will continue to be so until that Final Day.

tizzi

[George Blaisdell]

Maybe you can answer the original question, then, George:


I did - The saints are the mature in the faith, living repentant lives in love and humility, alive in Christ, one with Him who is within - How do you think Paul and Peter and all the apostles were able to do all the miraculous works they did? Because they had great personalities??? Or because they walked in the power of the Holy Spirit? Because Christ was within them?

And do you think that the GAIN of which Paul speaks regarding his impending death, do you think that this GAIN is some kind of lie Pul was telling? Do you think that all the blessings enjoyed by the saints upon the earth are snatched away at death? That their lives are suddenly over till the Last Judgement?

The answer is that they gain in their deaths, and become even more alive in Christ - They are not removed from the Church, but are elevated in it. And we don't ask them in the flesh to pray for us,, for they are no longer in the flesh, but instead we ask them in prayer to do so, for they are still alive after they die, because they were dead while they were 'alive' in the flesh, and they go back and forth before they die into the heavens, and that does not stop after they pass from this earth to their gain...


How do the saints receive our communication for a request for prayer? Are they omniscient? And how do they handle thousands or millions of requests every day?


How does Christ? And they have Christ within, and are alive in Him, and are elevated in His Church - That is what it means to be alive in Christ - It means to participate in his energies, and being enlivened in Him means in the Greek being *energized* by God... energizomai... That is how the miracles and signs work, and why the prayers of the saints are so valuable, why God saved a whole city for the sake of one righteous man in it...


They appear to have taken on some deity.


Peter's shadow healed the sick - The miraculous works of the saints are legion - And they do not occur because of the absence of God in their very being. That is why purification of the heart is so important in the discipleship of a Christian, for by this repentance, we are able to see/know God [oidomai], and without it, we are not, for Christ tells us "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God..." The saints have done this in the deeds of their repentance from themselves and from the world, and in the service of the Lord... Their flesh is mortified, and their lives are very pure ["We hold the mystery of the faith in a purified conscience," Paul]


They haven't become... little gods... have they?


They are new creatures in Christ, as they were perfected while upon the earth, and having gained much by no longer living [in the flesh] upon the earth. Little gods???? New creatures in Christ, for human flesh is in the Godhead now... And we cannot imagine or comprehend what awaits us, as Paul writes... Remember??

We never, if we can avoid it, call anyone a saint before they die - Too big a temptation for vainglory - Every saint will tell you they are the worst of sinners... And confess to that fact every Liturgy...

Do you HAVE to sneer with such questions??? This tradition has been a part of the Church since the 2nd century, and the Church is, according to your theory of Biblical inerrancy, the pillar and ground of truth, so why are you having so much trouble with it? It is a witness that is uncontroverted in 2000 years of the praxis of the Church of the Apostles... In all places, at all times, world-wide, no exceptions, except some Protestants rebelling against the Roman Church that had been in apostacy from the Communion of the rest of the Apostolic Churches for some 500 years...

The fact that there were and are errors in Rome does not make you right... Because YOU are NOT the pillar and ground of truth - Nor is logical argument by individuals... It is the Church that IS this pillar and ground... Not you, and not me, and not Joe College with his PhD in Theology...

geo-Arsenios

[themuzicman]

I did - The saints are the mature i the faith, living repentant lives in love and humility, alive in Christ, one with Him who is within - How do you think Paul and Peter and all the apostles were able to do all the miraculous works they did? Because they had great personalities??? Or because they walked in the poser of the Holy Spirit? Because Christ was within them?

The Spirit was working through them.

And do you think that he GAIN of which Paul speaks regarding his impending death, do you think that this GAIN is some kind of lie Pul was telling? Do you think that all the blessings enjoyedby the saints upon the earth are snatched away at death? That their lives are suddenly over till the Last Judgement?

Gain in that they didn't have to suffer in the pain of this world, anymore, but that they were going on to eternal life.

The answer is that they gain in their deaths, and become even more alive in Christ - They are not removed from the Church, but are elevated in it. And we don't ask them in the flesh to pray for us, but instead we ask them in prayer to do so, for they are still alive after they die, because theywere dead while they were 'alive' in the flesh, and they go back and forth before they die into the heavens, and that does not stop after they pass from this earth to their gain...

So, you're praying to the saints?

How does Christ? And they have Christ within, and are alive in Him, and are elevated in His Church - That is what it means to be alive in Christ - It means to participate in his energies, and being enlivened in Him means in the Greek being *energized* by God... energizomai... That is how the miracles and signs work, and why the prayers of the saints are so valuable, why God saved a whole city for the sake of one righteous man in it...

Jesus is God. God is omnipresent and omniscient. That explains how Jesus hears our prayers. How do the saints hear them?

Peter's shadow healed the sick - The miraculous works of the saints are legion - And they do not occur because of the absence of God in their very being.

Peter's shadow did, or the Holy Spirit did?

That is why purification of the heart is so important in the discipleship of a Christian, for by this repentance, we are able to see/know God [oidomai], and without it, we are not, for Christ tells us "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God..." The saints have done this in the deeds of their repentance from themselves and from the world, and in the service of the Lord... Their flesh is mortified, and their lives are very pure ["We hold the mystery of the faith in a purified conscience," Paul]

Doesn't explain their ability to handle thousands or millions of requests, much less hear them.

They are new creatures in Christ, as they were perfected while upon the earth, and having gained much by no longer living [in the flesh] upon the earth. Little gods???? New creatures in Christ, for human flesh is in the Godhead now... And we cannot imagine or comprehend what awaits us, as Paul writes... Remember??

OK, does that mean omniscience or omnipresence?

Do you HAVE to sneer with such questions??? This tradition has been a part of the Church since the 2nd century, and the Church is, according to your theory of Biblical inerrancy, the pillar and ground of truth, so why are you having so much trouble with it?

Because it is unscriptural. Because it makes saints into the kinds of personal gods that the Israelites were judged for worshipping. Because so many traditions simply have no scriptural basis, but were started centuries ago, and then cannonized along side scripture, even though it is not.

The reformation is a clear example of how the Church needed reform. Once the church had access to the Word for itself, the error of the Church leaders was apparant.

It is a witness that is uncontroverted in 2000 years of the praxis of the Church of the Apostles... In all places, at all times, world-wide, no exceptions, except some Protestants rebelling against the Roman Church that had been in apostacy from the Communion of the rest of the Apostolic Churches for some 500 years...

That's not so bad, if you apostasize to conform to scripture instead of the church.

The fact that there were and are errors in Rome does not make you right... Because YOU are NOT the pillar and ground of truth - Nor is logical argument by individuals... It is the Church that IS this pillar and ground... Not you, and not me, and not Joe College with his PhD in Theology...

geo-Arsenios

Well, since the Church is unable to provide a scriptural foundation for some of its practices, I'd say that the Church has strayed from where the church is.

Michael

[Findo]

how does asking someone in Heaven to pray for you help align you with God's will.. doesn't the aksing of earthly friends allow for some sort of fellowship in aligning to God's will?

What about when Jesus teaches us to pray.. no mention there of getting saints to pray.. more so, How can a saint in heaven pray 'deliver us from temptation'?

[George Blaisdell]

:
Originally Posted by George Blaisdell
I did - The saints are the mature in the faith, living repentant lives in love and humility, alive in Christ, one with Him who is within - How do you think Paul and Peter and all the apostles were able to do all the miraculous works they did? Because they had great personalities??? Or because they walked in the power of the Holy Spirit? Because Christ was within them?


The Spirit was working through them.
:

Indeed so - And why them and not Joe Crunchbottom having sex with his pals down in the bath-houses? And the answer is, repentant lives... vs unrepentant lives. That is the difference between a Christian and a not-Christian...


:
And do you think that he GAIN of which Paul speaks regarding his impending death, do you think that this GAIN is some kind of lie Pul was telling? Do you think that all the blessings enjoyedby the saints upon the earth are snatched away at death? That their lives are suddenly over till the Last Judgement?


Gain in that they didn't have to suffer in the pain of this world, anymore, but that they were going on to eternal life.


That is the worldly way to understand - They get to escape the pain of the world - We ALL get that when we die - Do you really think that Paul is seeking escape from the pain of the cross that he is so priveledged to carry? If so, you do not understand the role and value of the suffering of the carrying of one's own cross in the acquisition of purity of heart and maturity in the faith.


:
The answer is that they gain in their deaths, and become even more alive in Christ - They are not removed from the Church, but are elevated in it. And we don't ask them in the flesh to pray for us, but instead we ask them in prayer to do so, for they are still alive after they die, because theywere dead while they were 'alive' in the flesh, and they go back and forth before they die into the heavens, and that does not stop after they pass from this earth to their gain...


So, you're praying to the saints?


I ask their intercession for me to Christ, who intercedes to the Father. Salvation is a function of koinonia - The Church is the Bride and the Body of Christ, and that means the communion of the members of the body, and the leadership of the strong in the faith over the weaker members, and the loving of one another, and this does not stop at the grave, my friend - It GAINS there... We are all in this together - We are all one in Christ - We pray for one another - And we do so on both sides of the grave, for we are alive in Christ, and death is overcome!


:
How does Christ? And they have Christ within, and are alive in Him, and are elevated in His Church - That is what it means to be alive in Christ - It means to participate in his energies, and being enlivened in Him means in the Greek being *energized* by God... energizomai... That is how the miracles and signs work, and why the prayers of the saints are so valuable, why God saved a whole city for the sake of one righteous man in it...


Jesus is God. God is omnipresent and omniscient. That explains how Jesus hears our prayers. How do the saints hear them?


They are new creatures in Christ, having Christ within, and moving in the power of the Holy Spirit... Do you have need of better ears???

:
Peter's shadow healed the sick - The miraculous works of the saints are legion - And they do not occur because of the absence of God in their very being.


Peter's shadow did, or the Holy Spirit did?


Yes. The intersection of dvine and human, of time and eternity, this is the mystery of the incarnation, and the participation by mankind in the energies of God, and the Holy Spirit is God... And miracles flow...


:
That is why purification of the heart is so important in the discipleship of a Christian, for by this repentance, we are able to see/know God [oidomai], and without it, we are not, for Christ tells us "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God..." The saints have done this in the deeds of their repentance from themselves and from the world, and in the service of the Lord... Their flesh is mortified, and their lives are very pure ["We hold the mystery of the faith in a purified conscience," Paul]


Doesn't explain their ability to handle thousands or millions of requests, much less hear them.


So you understand now? They are in Christ, and Christ is in them, and they are perfected members of the Body of Christ, the Church, and they are no longer restricted by their bodily flesh, and they are now extreemly alive in Christ, much more so than their time in the flesh.


:
They are new creatures in Christ, as they were perfected while upon the earth, and having gained much by no longer living [in the flesh] upon the earth. Little gods???? New creatures in Christ, for human flesh is in the Godhead now... And we cannot imagine or comprehend what awaits us, as Paul writes... Remember??


OK, does that mean omniscience or omnipresence?


It means a new creature in Christ, no longer held back by flesh...


:
Do you HAVE to sneer with such questions??? This tradition has been a part of the Church since the 2nd century, and the Church is, according to your theory of Biblical inerrancy, the pillar and ground of truth, so why are you having so much trouble with it?


Because it is unscriptural.


That the Church is the pillarand ground of truth?? That's scripture, and is God-breathed and profitable for your instruction, yes?


Because it makes saints into the kinds of personal gods that the Israelites were judged for worshipping.


It makes them awesome advocates for us in Christ's Church, a veritable cloud of witnesses, and praying for one another is what Christians do, for Christ's Church is a house of prayer...


Because so many traditions simply have no scriptural basis, but were started centuries ago, and then cannonized along side scripture, even though it is not.


You were born of an apostatic Church - In the labor pains of trying, with Scripture, to correct the Church that mothered you, and abused her authority... You failed to reform Her, you know...

And you need to be birthed by the Church from which your mother Church apostacized... Your birth from that Church was by the mass produced Bible being used as a weapon against Her abuses, with the inevitable tradition coming forth in the child [you] that the Bible is virtually God, and can correct the Church. The problem is that this is not Biblical, because the Bible tells us that it is the Church that is the pillar and ground of truth, not you, and certainly not me, and not anyone outside the communion of the apostolic Church[es]...

The Church is certainly not inerrant in terms of Her members, but the passage means that if you want truth, you go to the Church, and not outside the Church. And in terms of the Bible, private [eg non Church] interpretation [of the revelation that the Bible is] is simply wrong. And THAT is Biblical. You cannot pick and choose what you wish to promote and what you wish to avoid in the Bible, and interpretation of the Bible is not to be found outside the Church.


The reformation is a clear example of how the Church needed reform. Once the church had access to the Word for itself, the error of the Church leaders was apparant.


Wrong Church... But making Her wrong does not make you right...

:
It is a witness that is uncontroverted in 2000 years of the praxis of the Church of the Apostles... In all places, at all times, world-wide, no exceptions, except some Protestants rebelling against the Roman Church that had been in apostacy from the Communion of the rest of the Apostolic Churches for some 500 years...


That's not so bad, if you apostasize to conform to scripture instead of the church.


Scripture tells us that it is the Church that is the pillar and ground of truth. If you were the Church, and dealing with scriptural matters, and came to conclusions, then there might be a possibility of rectitude, but outside the Church, interpretation is only private... And that is forbidden by the Scripture you would seek to interpret TO the Church...


:
The fact that there were and are errors in Rome does not make you right... Because YOU are NOT the pillar and ground of truth - Nor is logical argument by individuals... It is the Church that IS this pillar and ground... Not you, and not me, and not Joe College with his PhD in Theology...


Well, since the Church is unable to provide a scriptural foundation for some of its practices, I'd say that the Church has strayed from where the church is.


Then you have a private opinion regarding scripture, and that is a private interpretation of revelation, yes?

Sorry to be so harsh in tone, but this is really foundational - Outside the Church, a struggling individual is easy pickings for the opposition... [demons] WE NEED the prayers of the Church and the saints and each other to run the race set before us unto the overcoming of our fallen nature - Within the Church, we can barely make it, for it takes all our strength, and all our love... We are in this together, and only within the communion of the Apostolic Church CAN we be be ONE in Christ... Outside of that communion, there are only arguments and debated [right here on T-Web where "We debate Theology Seriously" rules the day] theories, and private interpretations, and endless divisions, further and further divide those who would be one in Christ...

Please pray for this old Arsenios, a sinner...

I am a woefully inadequate witness of the ancient faith...

geo-Arsenios

[George Blaisdell]

how does asking someone in Heaven to pray for you help align you with God's will.. doesn't the aksing of earthly friends allow for some sort of fellowship in aligning to God's will?


You do not leave the communion of Christ when you die, and the communion of Christ is His Church, His holy body... We pray for one another, not because God doesn't otherwise care, not because our prayers have power, but because God has commanded us to pray for one another, and give thanks for one another, and the prayers for intercession are what Christians most efficaciously do for one another. Because we are all in this together as one in Christ, we are one in one another, living spiritual lives in that oneness... And God, desiring our unity, and not our division, rewards prayers, and the prayers of those who have completed their earthly existence unto maturity in the faith do indeed intercede for us, and do indeed hear us, for their lives are Christ - "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain." [Paul] That says it all... Paul is alive in Christ, and what limitations are you going to put on either Christ or Paul-in-Christ???

We always seek God's will, and God knows our needs, so that we ask for prayers not to get what we want, but for what God knows we need...


What about when Jesus teaches us to pray.. no mention there of getting saints to pray.. more so, How can a saint in heaven pray 'deliver us from temptation'?


If a saint in heaven prays that we be delivered from some temptation, and that prayer is granted, we will not be tempted - Simple as that... On the other hand, if we keep on flirting with that temptation, then we WILL be tempted... That is just how temptations work, and temptations are perditious trials, and the ones we ask to be delivered from are the ones we cannot overcome, and as we mature in the faith, we become more and more able to overcome greater and greater temptations... When temptations are no longer able to tempt us, we are mature in the faith, and can then go on to grow even more in it as mature, and of these matters, the instructions come with the territory... And not in words...

geo-Arsenios

[Findo]

If a saint in heaven prays that we be delivered from some temptation, and that prayer is granted, we will not be tempted - Simple as that... On the other hand, if we keep on flirting with that temptation, then we WILL be tempted... That is just how temptations work, and temptations are perditious trials, and the ones we ask to be delivered from are the ones we cannot overcome, and as we mature in the faith, we become more and more able to overcome greater and greater temptations... When temptations are no longer able to tempt us, we are mature in the faith, and can then go on to grow even more in it as mature, and of these matters, the instructions come with the territory... And not in words...

geo-Arsenios


But how does someone who is now imune to temptation.. i.e. in heaven, pray to be delivered fomr temptaion? Why do they need to?

[George Blaisdell]

But how does someone who is now immune to temptation.. i.e. in heaven, pray to be delivered from temptation? Why do they need to?


I'm a daaaah! I missed that meaning in your question. Please forgive me, for I was just way too focused on the wholeness of the one Church issue as the mystery of the body and bride of our Lord, and addressed that instead of what you asked.

You are right - He does not pray for his own deliverance, but for the deliverance of those in the Church who are in the flesh... And especially if anyone asks him to do so in their prayers... Indeed, they have NO need to pray for themselves in terms of temptations - Those, I should think, are over with the death of the body...

geo-Arsenios

[Jude3b]

Why have any mediator? Why not just got to God? I do. Many people do.

"Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25)

[George Blaisdell]

:
Originally Posted by Ramonda
Why have any mediator? Why not just got to God? I do. Many people do.



"Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."
(Hebrews 7:25)


We are commanded to pray for one another, and when we pray, it is for this intercession that Christ is ever living to make for those that come to God through Him, no matter how far they have fallen... Yet it is through Him that they must come, and they must be seeking, or be called of the Holy Spirit, usually both, and they are brought foreward by hearing in faith the words of the Holy Gospel, and by the prayers of the saints - Paul never ceases praying, and enjoins us to be as he is, to be praying without ceasing, to pray for the Church, to pray for Her members, and to pray for all... Nowhere in the Bible will you find the instruction to only pray to Jesus all by yourself for just your own salvation. Salvation is a we, not an I... Because it is the communion of those who are one koinonia - one communion - one common-mind - one share nous - For Paul writes: "We have the mind [nous] of Christ." And Christians are called to empty themselves of self, and to put on Christ, and to be one with one another in Christ... And being one with one another in Christ means to pray for one another, among a whole host of other things... But prayer is not optional, for it is in prayer that we live in Spirit... And outside of prayer there is only division and death... A holy life is a life lived in prayer, and the saints are the ones who have attained upon this earth such a holy life, persevering to the end, because every demon wants to bring one down, and their temptations are often horriffic, yet their temptations are of this world, and they are not, for they are Christ's, they have been bought with a price... We do not know the nature of the thorn in Paul's flesh, but God's reply to his thrice-requested plea for its removal tells volumes about the role of suffering, for Christ Himself was crowned in thorns, and we are to take up our own cross, and follow Him...

The stakes are high...
The price paid already is high...
We pray for one another...
Communion does not stop at the grave...
Death is overcome...
Christ has trampled down death by His death...
We ask one another for prayers of intercession...
We live Christ in Spirit...
It's Biblical...
It's the Apostolic Church...
The pillar and ground of truth...

geo-Arsenios

[Jude3b]

"Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25)

I should add another reason: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Tim. 2:5)

I mean after all, "who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2:7)

[George Blaisdell]

I should add another reason: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Tim. 2:5)

I mean after all, "who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2:7)


The mediator between God and men is the man, Christ Jesus - Nobody is saying anything other than this. What the Church has always said is that we pray for one another, and our prayers are intercessory in nature, and not between man and God, but between Christ in us, and Christ in heaven... And God gave to the apostles the power of binding and loosing of sins, and thereby the Church has this power, and it is known as the mystery of confession and forgiveness of sins... And yet it is God who forgives us our sins in this mystery - The man who is the priest is just a man, but as priest, in that holy office, in the administration of the sacrament of confession, he forgives us as Christ commanded the apostles to forgive in His holy name... This is what the Church does...

geo-Arsenios

[Jude3b]

The mediator between God and men is the man, Christ Jesus - Nobody is saying anything other than this. What the Church has always said is that we pray for one another, and our prayers are intercessory in nature, and not between man and God, but between Christ in us, and Christ in heaven... And God gave to the apostles the power of binding and loosing of sins, and thereby the Church has this power, and it is known as the mystery of confession and forgiveness of sins... And yet it is God who forgives us our sins in this mystery - The man who is the priest is just a man, but as priest, in that holy office, in the administration of the sacrament of confession, he forgives us as Christ commanded the apostles to forgive in His holy name... This is what the Church does...

geo-Arsenios

First of all - when you refer to "the Church" - you are not referring to the church of God - the Body of Christ. You are referring either to Romanism or some other sect.

The Bible reveals that those who have been born into God's family, the church of god - the body of Christ, can go straight to God's throne to receive forgiveness for their sins:

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin." (Psalm 32:5)

Here is why true Christians have access to God's throne:

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus..." (Hebrews 10:19)

[themuzicman]

They are new creatures in Christ, having Christ within, and moving in the power of the Holy Spirit... Do you have need of better ears???

So, your prayer to the saints goes from you to God to the saints, and then back to God?

Doesn't that seem a bit redundant? What do you hope that a request that went through God and back to God was going to accomplish, when a saint put in a good word for you?

Michael

[George Blaisdell]

:
Originally Posted by George
They are new creatures in Christ, having Christ within, and moving in the power of the Holy Spirit... Do you have need of better ears???


So, your prayer to the saints goes from you to God to the saints, and then back to God?

Doesn't that seem a bit redundant? What do you hope that a request that went through God and back to God was going to accomplish, when a saint put in a good word for you?

Michael



It is VERY reduntant, if you divide the saint from God, and have the saint separated from Him. But you see, Christ incarnated, and by this incarnation, we who are sinners can in our flesh [but not OF our flesh] become new creatures in Christ, and Christ is within us as new creatures in Him. That is the seal of the Holy Spirit given at baptism [eg - chrismation].

So we are in Christ, but as immature ones in the faith, and the saints are in Christ as the mature in the faith, for they have overcome the flesh in the praxis of the faith, and are now released from the flesh to their gain, so that they are even more one with Christ... They are now worshipping at the throne of the Lamb apart from their fallen bodies, awaiting the final judgement and the resurrection of their bodies, for a body such as theirs is now in the God-Head, thanks to Christ.

And Christ came to gather his lost and fallen creation in the loving arms He stretched forth upon His Holy Cross, that all should be gathered unto Him, and is is His Own who live in His koinonia [common-mind], his communion, that commune one with another in Spirit, and death is no barrier, because Christ overcame death...

Salvation is NOT about just "ME and God"... It is about the love for one another that share in the communion of the Body of our Lord, His one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, Whose Head He IS... And that Church, established at Pentecost in the Holy Spirit, has been upon the earth ever since, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her... She is the ark of the covenant of the body and blood of our Lord unto salvation from sin and death, and in Her is Life, and apart from Her I will not turn...

The bumper sticker reads:

I DON'T BELIEVE IN ORGANIZED RELIGION:
I'M EASTERN ORTHODOX

And that is almost true...

Yet we find freedom in Spirit in Christ...
By obedience in body and mind to Him...

We don't look to our own vain reasonings for the Faith of the Apostlic Fathers... We look to the pillar and ground of truth, their Apostolic Church, for discipleship into the faith, not claiming faith alone, but demonstrating works only, [James 2:14-20], for it is by these that the faith is shown, and by words apart from works is only shown the faith of demons... [2:19]

geo-Arsenios

[nomad]

I mean, I could do a rain dance to St. Polycarp, in order to get him to ask for rain. It's not forbidden in scripture, is it?


<stirring the pot>

you mean, like many evangelical churches do every week, implicitly encouraging their members to 'worship harder' so that the holy spirit 'rain' can come?

<only 43.6% serious...>


for the rest of it... well, i will be posting a question on the 'divine darkness' in a couple days, i'm reading 'the mystical theology of the eastern church' right now, and just in the first chapter on apophaticism i can see reasons why there might be large gaps in communication here... btw, to the EO peoples: is this related to deification?

as far as the rest, i don't have much to say, except to add an example from acts... there were cloths that were sent out from paul, and when they touched people they were healed (acts 19:11). now, why did they have to get touched with the cloths? why couldn't they just ask god and get healed? or have another person pray for them and be healed? i don't know.

[themuzicman]

It is VERY reduntant, if you divide the saint from God, and have the saint separated from Him. But you see, Christ incarnated, and by this incarnation, we who are sinners can in our flesh [but not OF our flesh] become new creatures in Christ, and Christ is within us as new creatures in Him. That is the seal of the Holy Spirit given at baptism [eg - chrismation].

So we are in Christ, but as immature ones in the faith, and the saints are in Christ as the mature in the faith, for they have overcome the flesh in the praxis of the faith, and are now released from the flesh to their gain, so that they are even more one with Christ... They are now worshipping at the throne of the Lamb apart from their fallen bodies, awaiting the final judgement and the resurrection of their bodies, for a body such as theirs is now in the God-Head, thanks to Christ.

And Christ came to gather his lost and fallen creation in the loving arms He stretched forth upon His Holy Cross, that all should be gathered unto Him, and is is His Own who live in His koinonia [common-mind], his communion, that commune one with another in Spirit, and death is no barrier, because Christ overcame death...

Salvation is NOT about just "ME and God"... It is about the love for one another that share in the communion of the Body of our Lord, His one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, Whose Head He IS... And that Church, established at Pentecost in the Holy Spirit, has been upon the earth ever since, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her... She is the ark of the covenant of the body and blood of our Lord unto salvation from sin and death, and in Her is Life, and apart from Her I will not turn...

The bumper sticker reads:

I DON'T BELIEVE IN ORGANIZED RELIGION:
I'M EASTERN ORTHODOX

And that is almost true...

Yet we find freedom in Spirit in Christ...
By obedience in body and mind to Him...

We don't look to our own vain reasonings for the Faith of the Apostlic Fathers... We look to the pillar and ground of truth, their Apostolic Church, for discipleship into the faith, not claiming faith alone, but demonstrating works only, [James 2:14-20], for it is by these that the faith is shown, and by words apart from works is only shown the faith of demons... [2:19]

geo-Arsenios

This is the kind of answer that makes me chuckle, because it is the kind of dancing that happens when there is no good answer other than "this is how we've always done it."

It's also the kind of answer that reminds me why I don't belong to a denomination.

Michael

[George Blaisdell]

This is the kind of answer that makes me chuckle, because it is the kind of dancing that happens when there is no good answer other than "this is how we've always done it."


Hey, Michael - I had to chuckle too - I really did NOT answer you, but headed off on other trails, wandered around for a bit, and ended up answering unasked questions. Please forgive me! I get in a hurry, [I work two jobs, type and dash], and easily lose track [I turn 60 this year, and suffer from partzimer's-syndrome-by-poxy. :-)


It's also the kind of answer that reminds me why I don't belong to a denomination.


Well you don't have to be so self-satisfied and smug about it! That won't get you to heaven! Nose tracks on the ceiling won't lead you upward...

And fwiw, I avoided denominations prior to Orthodoxy too - Not because I felt so good about myself because I was so much better than they were because I could ask questions that they squirmed on trying to avoid, but because I kept asking God: "Who will minister unto these ministers, Lord?" For all I could see was troubles, and holiness was almost impossible to find...

I didn't know there even WAS an Orthodoxy, but recognized it virtually on sight, for I was a recovering athiest called out of some pretty shameful depths by a loving God who turned my life around, and I was so bad that it took God three years before I believed there even was a God and that this God was calling me out.

Nobody brought God to me, and I did not seek God...

And after that, I avoided Christians, and when God brought me to the Bible, and showed me that He is the God of that Holy Book, I still stayed away from denominations, because they were so obviously [to me, at least] clueless... They did not know spiritual lives... They preached their interpretatons of written words they had read in the Bible, and called it preaching God's Word, and they were guessing... And inferring... And speculating... And giving private opinions...

The Bible tells us there is no private interpretation of revelation...
The Bible is itself revelation...
The only alternative to private interpretation is the Church...
That is why the Church is the pillar and ground of truth...
It says so in the Bible...

And the Church prays for intercession...

If you have never experienced intercessory prayer, and its results, then this might not mean much to you. God wants us to love one another. This means praying for one another. The Church is the Communion of the Love of Christ, and God commands us to pray for one another. No where does He tell us that we are to stop praying for one another when we pass from the body and fall asleep in the Lord... We are alive in Christ on earth, and that does not stop at death...

Now the death that we all will physically die the saints have already died in the mauration of their faith, for by losing their life, they found Life in Christ. They did not wait to die, but died before their deaths, and we are all able to do this because Christ died for us... That is the call of discipleship, to mortify our members - That means to put the concerns of the flesh to death, and live only unto Christ. It means denying ouf self, taking up our own cross, and following Christ.

Not for wimps...

And not for the smug...

And certainly not for lovers of bodily pleasures...

We are not to be reeds blown by the wind... [of temptations]

geo-Arsenios

[wazzat more of an answer? - I kinda fergit the questions sometimes...]

[George Blaisdell]

for the rest of it... well, i will be posting a question on the 'divine darkness' in a couple days, i'm reading 'the mystical theology of the eastern church' right now, and just in the first chapter on apophaticism i can see reasons why there might be large gaps in communication here... btw, to the EO peoples: is this related to deification?


I have not read Lossky yet - But the connection between apophatic theology and the radical 'otherness' of the spiritual world is both Orthodox and Biblical, for Paul wrote of a man [himself] taken up to the third heaven, seeing things of which it is not lawful to speak, and there is indeed a radical otherness to spiritual matters - They are apprehended directly by the nous, and not defined by intellect, and the nous is the eye of the heart, and it is the pure in heart that 'see' God, and that is why purification of the heart is the prerequisite for knowledge of God... So that what can be said is "not lawfull" to speak as Paul states, which leaves us only to say what is not...

Divinization, or energizing, or the participation by the saint in the energies of God, is called glorification in the Bible, and is attained by those who "hold the mystery of the faith in a purified conscience" [Paul], and as is written also by him: "Romans 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Notice 'glorified' is the same aorist [eg past tense] as the rest of the verbs. And notice also that it is plural... It is a gift of God that we cannot earn, but without a pure conscience, we cannot "hold" it... And indeed, it normally comes only later in the latter stages of the process of our maturing unto perfection in the faith. It is the saints, mature in the faith, deadened to the world, and alive in Christ, that are glorified... Paul was one of these, as were all th apostles, and all the saints, each differently...


as far as the rest, i don't have much to say, except to add an example from acts... there were cloths that were sent out from paul, and when they touched people they were healed (acts 19:11). now, why did they have to get touched with the cloths? why couldn't they just ask god and get healed? or have another person pray for them and be healed? i don't know.


There are a lot of this kind of thing recorded for us in the Bible, and the fact is that it is the intersection of God and flesh, Christ and materiality, time and eternity, and on and on, that faith is all about, for God is everywhere, yet he does not, as a general rule, act directly, but always through created matter... Even the body of Christ is created matter...

Walking in faith in the power of the Spirit is what the saints do, and their lives are miraculous, irreligious of all shams to the contrary that do not withstand truth... That are done by pretenders... Acts is about the acts of the apostles, and these are the actions of those mature in the faith...

geo-Arsenios

[Jezz]

You're kidding... All this devotion to communcating with saints, and you don't even know if they're getting the message?
That's not what I said at all. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I said I don't know how they get the message. I still believe that they do get the message - even if I don't know how.

Point being that if we think that praying to God is going to somehow get God to do something other than what He was going to do before, we either deny his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, or his eternal goodness and infinite wisdom!

The difference is that God responds. This has been my pet peeve about prayer for many years, now.
That is a dodge. This is a difference of no relevance in the context of your original complaint. Advocates of making intercessory requests of saints claim that the saints respond too.

Your original complaint was:

"Point being that if we think that a saint praying for us is going to somehow get God to do something other than what He was going to do before, we either deny his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, or his eternal goodness and infinite wisdom!"

The implied conclusion (which you have not stated): "a saint praying for us is useless".

My aim was to show that this argument was invalid. I did this by using it to arrive at a contradiciton. See, the above argument is really just an instance of the more general argument:

"Point being that if we think that X is going to somehow get God to do something other than what He was going to do before, we either deny his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, or his eternal goodness and infinite wisdom! Therefore, X is useless."

where "X" is any action conducted by a person.

The problem is that if we substitute X="prayer to God", then this argument (if valid) proves that prayer to God is useless. Because we know that prayer to God is not useless (as you yourself have admitted), we know that this conclusion is false. Which means that the argument must be invalid. Thus the argument does not prove that prayer to the saints is useless, as you originally claimed. It is really that simple - your original argument is bunkum. But as usual, you refuse to admit this and simply dodge on to the next point. :shrug:

I believe that God instructs us to do something better.
So do I. And I believe He does the same when we ask the saints to pray for us, and when saints pray for us.

Except that friends can have a direct impact on your life, by an encouraging word, or following God's will here, on your behalf! What's a dead saint going to do?
Again, and irrelevant objection. Sure, they can have a direct impact on your life. But what's the point of them praying for you? By the same argument you used above, "nothing". Of course, you do believe that having friends pray for you does something - so why not the same for saints that pray for you?

So, you try to communicate with saints, not knowing whether it does you a lick of good, and the only reason to do so is so that you can imitate them instead of Christ?
This is a false dichotomy which you have constructed for purely polemical purposes. Rather nasty tactic of you there.

It's not a matter of imitating them instead of imitating Christ. "Imitation" is a transitive relation - ie, if A imitates B and B imitates C, then A will also be imitating C. In other words, when we imitate the saints, we are imitating Christ, because the saints imitated Christ.

This seems to be a very large pill to swallow with zero benefit.
Ahh yes - that very large pill that you are having trouble swallowing - that's your pride. It is the most difficult pill of all to swallow. :smile: But there is much benefit. The witness of the Church throughout the centuries has proven, despite your assertion, that asking saints for intercession is beneficial. That's why they've continued to do it.

[Jude3b]

First of all - when you refer to "the Church" - you are not referring to the church of God - the Body of Christ. You are referring either to Romanism or some other sect.

The Bible reveals that those who have been born into God's family, the church of god - the body of Christ, can go straight to God's throne to receive forgiveness for their sins:

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin." (Psalm 32:5)

Here is why true Christians have access to God's throne:

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus..." (Hebrews 10:19)

The practice of communing with the dead treads dangerously close to necromancy, stongly condemned in the Bible (Deut. 18:10-12)

Prayer to the so-called saints is nothing but worthless chatter.

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:16)