Christian tolerance

[Sozo]

Is truth more important than getting along?

At which point do we set aside the truth that we may fellowship with those who claim Christ, but teach egregious errors?

[nfactor13131313]

It would depend on how fellowship is related to intellectual agreement. Could you expand on "egregious" a bit, though? What kind of errors would inherently stand in the way of fellowship?

[Xmansmommy]

Great topic Sozo!!! I've often wondered about this issue as well. Looking forward to reading everyone's comments on this one.

[Sozo]

Today @ 06:39 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51575#post51575)
nfactor13131313:

What kind of errors would inherently stand in the way of fellowship?

That's not relevant to my question, because it is based on an individuals perception of truth.

So, based on what you perceive as the truth, when would you make a decision to stand-up for that truth as more important than an established relationship?

How much will you tolerate another's view at the expense of truth?

[yxboom]

Are these people washed in the blood of Christ by the gift of God through faith?

[yxboom]

If so, then would it be wise as the person who is in the position of knowing truth to ask how much she may be or may not be decieved in areas they do not know and how that God is willing to accept her in flaw, imperfection and error of truth for the sake of His Son's sacrifice and love for her?

[Justified]

Today @ 12:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51508#post51508)
Sozo:

Is truth more important than getting along?

At which point do we set aside the truth that we may fellowship with those who claim Christ, but teach egregious errors?

It is not possible to set aside the truth to fellowship because fellowship is agreement of the truth.

[Sozo]

Today @ 07:12 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51610#post51610)
yxboom:

Are these people washed in the blood of Christ by the gift of God through faith?

I'm not sure that matters. I just want to know how far you will tolerate another's perception of truth at the expense of your own?

For example... if you believe that one must wear a red shirt to church on Sunday to be acceptabe to God, how far will you tolerate another's view that the shirt must be blue?

[yxboom]

I disagree because if both parties are saved by the same faith and blood than they are in agreement. To argue that does not put the 2 "in" fellowship to begin with.

[Sozo]

Today @ 07:17 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51614#post51614)
yxboom:

If so, then would it be wise as the person who is in the position of knowing truth to ask how much she may be or may not be decieved in areas they do not know and how that God is willing to accept her in flaw, imperfection and error of truth for the sake of His Son's sacrifice and love for her?


Good point! So, when do we rebuke? And who can be certain that they are to rebuke or be rebuked?

[Woman]

Sozo:
That's not relevant to my question, because it is based on an individuals perception of truth.

So, based on what you perceive as the truth, when would you make a decision to stand-up for that truth as more important than an established relationship?

How much will you tolerate another's view at the expense of truth?

Although this is a theological thread, I think it would be more approriate in religion or elsewhere. I only say this because if you are not willing to discuss specific theological issues or Biblical exegesis then it's really more about personal attitudes.

That being said, I believe this is a universal issue that goes beyond religion. For example, at what point does a choice become necessary with regard to a friendship when immoral, unethical or illegal behavior is involved?

When does being a loyal friend morph into being a co-dependent ?

There is also the matter of indivudual strength and self control. I have close friends who are Christian and Jewish and am socially involved with two Muslim families. Now some of these friends and I will stay up into the wee hours and discuss our beliefs even when they are contrary. Because we have chosen our life-styles and our moral and spiritual paths and are not dependent on the opinion of others for validation, we can agree to disagree and still remain close. Other of my friends are less comfortable with these differences, to the point where we basically don't discuss religion, money or politics. ha ha! Also, I have ended relationships because of fundamental differences. Sometimes people are simply a bad influence or project an unhealthy atmosphere that has little to do with the actual beliefs and more to do with their inability to accept the fact that people must make their own choices in life.

So although I can't address the question in a Christian only context, I do understand it. I'm sure that you are not just talking about the differences like YEC vs. old earth or Calvinism vs OV. These may be areas for spirited debate among friends who have a strong enough friendship to engage in them. On the other hand if you are talking about more casual fellowship, where your kids aren't best friends, etc. then isn't that what different denominations are for?

One observation that I can make as a non-Christian which I think is important. If you are believers in Christ's divinity, in salvation through the crucifixion, in His rising from the dead and in the trinity - what more do you need? There is so much serious contention and division in the church today that it has become a reason for many people to seek answers outside of formal religion. This is not a condemnation, just an observation.

I guess my question is why can't you "stand up for your Truth" and still extend a hand in friendship to those who disagree?

[Sozo]

Today @ 07:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51621#post51621)
Woman:

I guess my question is why can't you "stand up for your Truth" and still extend a hand in friendship to those who disagree?

Because Christianty carries with it ultimatums, and not meeting them can have dire consequences.

If there is no absolute truth, then sociological orgies would be the norm.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 08:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51623#post51623)
Sozo:


[QUOTE]
Because Christianty carries with it ultimatums, and not meeting them can have dire consequences.
So you don't really worship God, you're just terrified of whatever may be omnipotent.


If there is no absolute truth, then sociological orgies would be the norm.
My goodness, what demons must plague you!

"Add a couple of drops of venom to a half-truth and you get an absolute truth." Eric Hoffer

[Woman]

Because Christianty carries with it ultimatums, and not meeting them can have dire consequences.

If there is no absolute truth, then sociological orgies would be the norm.

hmmmmm - You must be scared to death most of the time. How sad. May I remind you that there are huge chunks of society who do not share your views and who are astoundingly and unbelievably NOT engaged in "sociological orgies?"

I would point you to the Jewish American community who has an amazingly low crime rate, are never on welfare, contribute enormously to their community, and so on and so forth. Do you perceive the Jewish neighborhoods in NYC to be embroiled in "orgies" while the Catholic Italian neighborhood two blocks over is a paragon of virtue?

There are areas in the US which are dominated by Christian fundamentalists which alsoexhibit high crime rates. And there are sections of society which are dominated by humanistic philosophy and have very high standards. How do you account for this? Why do you think you have a corner on morality?

If Christianity worked (as a socialogical pattern) then why would it have such high rates of homocide?

I dont' get it.

[kiwimac]

Perhaps it might be useful to take a good look at the kinds of people Jesus fellowshipped with?

Kiwimac

[Sozo]

Today @ 09:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51734#post51734)
kiwimac:

Perhaps it might be useful to take a good look at the kinds of people Jesus fellowshipped with?

Kiwimac

And do you think that Jesus will overlook their rejection of the truth to enjoy an eternity of fellowship?

Why even die for man? Why even share the gospel? Why believe anything?

Let's just party!!

:yipee:

[Sozo]

Today @ 09:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51722#post51722)
Woman:



I dont' get it.

Agreed!

Don't equate Christianity with "morality", they are not remotely related.

Jesus is either the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life, or He isn't. And if not, then frankly I could care less about any of you!

[kiwimac]

Today @ 04:22 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51754#post51754)
Sozo:



And do you think that Jesus will overlook their rejection of the truth to enjoy an eternity of fellowship?

Why even die for man? Why even share the gospel? Why believe anything?

Let's just party!!

:yipee:


Just where did that come from? Its like going from Auckland (NZ) to Oakland (USA) via the Ukraine (YOU CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE!)

I said nothing about rejection or acceptance, I simply asked what KINDS of people Jesus fellowshipped with.

Kiwimac

[Woman]

Sozo:
Don't equate Christianity with "morality", they are not remotely related.

Jesus is either the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life, or He isn't. And if not, then frankly I could care less about any of you!


I believe you have just shown yourself clearly and plainly as someone who is not so concerned about loving God and loving others as you are someone who MUST be right or you will hold your breath til you turn blue. Frankly, temper tantrums have never impressed me and I doubt they impress your brethren.

[Sozo]

Today @ 09:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51734#post51734)
kiwimac:

Perhaps it might be useful to take a good look at the kinds of people Jesus fellowshipped with?

Kiwimac

Actually you made a statement with a question mark.

Jesus fellowshipped with everyone that needed to recognize that they were hopeless without Him.

[Sozo]

Today @ 10:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51770#post51770)
Woman:

Sozo:



I believe you have just shown yourself clearly and plainly as someone who is not so concerned about loving God and loving others as you are someone who MUST be right or you will hold your breath til you turn blue. Frankly, temper tantrums have never impressed me and I doubt they impress your brethren.

No, but God must be right, even if there are those who persist in making Him a liar.

[Gavin]

Sozo,

what do you mean by "tolerate"? If that means refraining from calling people unnecessarily dirty names, then I give "toleration" a :thumb: :thumb:

Gavin

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

I will talk to anyone. Just because they don't share my beliefs, I don't care. If you earn a certain amount of trust, then you can earn the right to speak into their life. Just make sure you're grounded and don't get sucked in to their abberent ideas.

[Sher]

If I understand right, Sozo, you are speaking about the fallacy of "hate the sin, love the sinner" ... something I have recently been realizing is a fallacy. I'll expound later when I am sure I am OT, understanding your point.

BTW, have you read "The New Tolerance" by Josh McD. and Bob H.? I am about 1/3 of the way through ... interesting stuff.

[Socrates]

SherBear asked Sozo:BTW, have you read "The New Tolerance" by Josh McD. and Bob H.? I am about 1/3 of the way through ... interesting stuff.Sounds good. FWIW, just before Christmas I heard a CD of a talk by Josh McD. on this new tolerance, and it was first rate.

[Sozo]

Sher Bear...

Thank you for responding.

You asked...

If I understand right, Sozo, you are speaking about the fallacy of "hate the sin, love the sinner"

Actually I'm not. My concern is with those who confess Christ and yet undermine the very essentials of the gospel publicly. For example: a Pastor, a radio or TV evangelist, a speaker at church or school, or perhaps one in a position of authority on a debate forum.

How much should we tolerate and let their comments slide without some kind of stern and public rebuke, especially if they defend their aberrant doctrine?

We live in a time when communication is at such a rapid pace, voices are everywhere, and each presenting their own ideas about the truth, and yet only one truth is possible. Many hold to the security of a church heirarchy's or denomination's position on truth to be of "one mnd", yet there are several different perceptions of what that truth is, when once again, there can only be one truth.

On this, a public forum, many ideas are shared from diverse backgounds and beliefs (or lack thereof), and yet the majority of those who participate are in pursuit of proclaiming or pursuing an undertanding of the "one" truth. Yet there are many times when very strong beliefs clash, but the fact remains either one or neither is correct. We are all familiar with some of these debates: Election or Free Will..., Faith alone or faith + works..., OSAS or apostasy. Taking one view over the other, if incorrect, completely undermines and destroys the purpose of God and the message concerning Christ. These are not periphrial issues!

So, whatever your view is, when do you decide to "get along", or when do you firmly and vehemently defend an issue that is vital to the eternal destiny of a persons soul?

If someone came in your home with a gun to take your families physical life, most of us would have no problem defending to the uttermost their lives. Why should we not take the same position when defending their soul? Is it because we really don't believe what we claim, or that we just don't care?

[Sher]

04-06-2003 @ 09:33 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Socrates:

SherBear asked Sozo:BTW, have you read "The New Tolerance" by Josh McD. and Bob H.? I am about 1/3 of the way through ... interesting stuff.Sounds good. FWIW, just before Christmas I heard a CD of a talk by Josh McD. on this new tolerance, and it was first rate. It is very good so far. I was surprised how many things I am guilty of doing myself as described in the book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0842370889/qid=1049692068/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-5816076-3670451?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) ... and I consider myself pretty much a "fundamentalist". It talks about how we have it so ingrained in us to be p.c., or at least to be "tolerant", that we miss the fact that Christian love ... or any love for that matter ... doesn't allow ill to befall the receiver of that love. A mother doesn't tolerate a drug habit because she wants the child to "live their own life" ... etc.

Sorry ... Sozo ... I didn't mean to hijack ...

Actually, this book is very relevant to this topic. It encompasses not only others who profess Christianity, but also secular in/tolerance as well.

There are some fundamentals that are simply fact, and as such, remove any possiblity of fellowship ... "The condition of sharing similar interests, ideals, or experiences, as by reason of [...] religion [...]" ... from an agreement stand point. "We hold these truths to be self-evident" ... would seem to be an appropriate phrase here. Not that we should cause public fights about it, but correction is necessary when the people are putting forth something that is NOT Biblical ...

[HemofHisGarment]

PCANews - There is ingratitude and envy in the Church. There were actually Christians who were "out to get" Paul and to make his life as miserable as possible. There are Christians engaged in "church politics" today and we need to take note of the fact that such conduct—even though prevalent—is biblically unacceptable.

[Steven]

sozo,

After fasting about this issue and remaining silent for seven days and nights... I saw an image on the wall, starting with 7 and ending with a 5; this I multiplied by the number of pigs that ran off the cliff into the water and minused the number of lepers healed, divided by the number of Solomon's wives and added to that number the number of time 'nephilum' has been metioned in my presence...

After all this, I was still a few numbers short, but then I counted how many times I have shown love to my neighbor throughout the day (ie not throwing dog poop over the fence) and the difference was amended.

the ANSWER is : (fanfare) 75%!!!!

75% is how much you can tolerate at the expense of the truth; 75% is perfect, it's an epiphany!

50% would not do because it would bamboozle me the opportunity to share my tolerance testimony.

100% would not show me as humble.

Besides, according to my leather-bonded, gilt embroidered, holy Ghost bound Jesse Jackson Relgious Handbook, under chapter "Tolerance or Shakedown, love verses riots" it says that 75% is a great number; its the number of the average Christian... not too humble, not too proud, just right.

Not too hot, not to cold... but luuuuuukewarm; and as the great scholar Goldilocks stated so superbly, "This is just right."

- Steven

(let's all just... get along.)

[Ethos]

Yes, Jesus tolerated all sorts of people of different viewpoints... I think sometimes you just have to live and let live.

Besides, it has been proven that example is a much more effective teacher, second only to experience.....

How can u preach a faith if you don't live by it??

Judge not, lest you be judged...
Love thy neighbor as thyself.....

[Ethos]

Today @ 04:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=87727#post87727)
Steven:

sozo,

After fasting about this issue and remaining silent for seven days and nights... I saw an image on the wall, starting with 7 and ending with a 5; this I multiplied by the number of pigs that ran off the cliff into the water and minused the number of lepers healed, divided by the number of Solomon's wives and added to that number the number of time 'nephilum' has been metioned in my presence...

After all this, I was still a few numbers short, but then I counted how many times I have shown love to my neighbor throughout the day (ie not throwing dog poop over the fence) and the difference was amended.

the ANSWER is : (fanfare) 75%!!!!

75% is how much you can tolerate at the expense of the truth; 75% is perfect, it's an epiphany!

50% would not do because it would bamboozle me the opportunity to share my tolerance testimony.

100% would not show me as humble.

Besides, according to my leather-bonded, gilt embroidered, holy Ghost bound Jesse Jackson Relgious Handbook, under chapter "Tolerance or Shakedown, love verses riots" it says that 75% is a great number; its the number of the average Christian... not too humble, not too proud, just right.

Not too hot, not to cold... but luuuuuukewarm; and as the great scholar Goldilocks stated so superbly, "This is just right."

- Steven

(let's all just... get along.)


Amen to that Steven!!:cheers:

[Ethos]

04-03-2003 @ 04:30 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51761#post51761)
Sozo:



Agreed!

Don't equate Christianity with "morality", they are not remotely related.

Jesus is either the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life, or He isn't. And if not, then frankly I could care less about any of you!

[Steven]

Tricinosis,

You're right... Jesus did speak of Love a lot. But, your reply on love brings to mind a loving and delightful passage of Scripture, composed poetically by the Lord Himself, entitled::hi:

Mathew 23.

"1. Then spake Jesus to the multitudes and to his disciples,
2. saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
3. all things therefore whatsoever they bid you, these do and observe: but do not ye after their works; for they say, and do not.
4. Yea, they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.
5. But all their works they do to be seen of men: for they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6. and love the chief place at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7. and the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called of men, Rabbi.
8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren.
9. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven.
10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ.
11. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
14. [Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hyprcrites! for ye devour widows' houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.]
15. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
16. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, that say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor.
17. Ye fools and blind: for which is greater, the gold, or the temple that hath sanctified the gold?
18. And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gift that is upon it, he is a debtor.
19. Ye blind: for which is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20. He therefore that sweareth by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21. And he that sweareth by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22. And he that sweareth by the heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.
24. Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!
25. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full from extortion and excess.
26. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the platter, that the outside thereof may become clean also.
27. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but inwardly ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous,
30. and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31. Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
32. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33. Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34. Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35. that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. "

I hope this helps.

Steven

[Ethos]

Steven,
Are u speaking to me?? My name isn't Tricinosis friend. It's Triphicus. And what does that help?? I'm afraid that I don;t understand. I have Jesus in my heart, he is all the "help" that I need. But thanks anyways.

[Ethos]

Oh, and a couple more questions..
*Are you saying that the commandments (Love thy neighbor as thyself) didn't come straight from the mouth of God?

*What is your argument anyways? You didn't make yourself very clear, you just posted an excerpt from the bible. What does this excerpt say to you to make a validity against my point?

God Bless!

[Ethos]

Oh, and that passage was meant for the ones who would later crucify him.. Hope that helps!!

[Steven]

Do you find Jesus' words offensive?

Does His lack of tolerance turn your ambivalence into anger?

Or, do you find that experience is the ultimate judge?

Just Curious,

Steven

[Ethos]

what makes you think I am angry?? I am not judging you. Merely trying to understand what point you are trying to make?? What I have said, I have said out of love. You are the one who seems to speak from anger.. But I am not to judge you... As I said in my first post, live and let live. You have said and done nothing to disprove me, I was merely giving you an opportunity.. I apologize if you have taken offense to that friend.. God Bless You!

[Ethos]

HAHAH, if Jesus has no tolerance, then why was one of his greatest disciples an ex prostitute!! HAHAHA!! Praise the Lord!!

[Ethos]

Love is patient, Love is Kind. It does not have envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perserveres. Love never Fails...
CORINTHIANS 13:4-8

[Steven]

triphicus,

and to that i reply:

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
35. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church." 1 corinth 14:34-35

- Steven :thumb:

http://www.informationgospel.net/helpmate.htm

[Ethos]

Oh, and about my experience the ultimate teacher.. I am sorry, you are correct that I am wrong there. I didn;t mean it the way it sounded. Of course GOd is the ultimate teacher... I know that as well as anyone. Please excuse me for that miscommunication...

[Ethos]

Today @ 05:24 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=87771#post87771)
Steven:

triphicus,

and to that i reply:

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
35. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church." 1 corinth 14:34-35

- Steven :thumb:

http://www.informationgospel.net/helpmate.htm

[Ethos]

God Bless you friend. Youre going to need it!! I love you neighbor!!

[Ethos]

You can't blame God for being just a little PO'ed at Eve... But I'de be willing to bet my life that he's gotten over it by now...

[Steven]

mary magdaline was the greastest disciple? oh i guess you found that in Hezekiah 2:9...
the same place you find the pope mentioned and madeline murray o hare...


steven :yipee:

[Ethos]

I didnt say the greatest. There was no greatest... I said one of the Greatest. She must have done something right to have been one of the ones chosen to see Jesus after the resurrection.. What is the big deal anyway? Why are you so quick to throw stones at me, when all I do is speak of love, and am kind to you?? What do you have against me friend?

[Ethos]

Are you a Christian?

[Steven]

But speak thou the things which befit the sound doctrine:
2. that aged men be temperate, grave, sober-minded, sound in faith, in love, in patience:
3. that aged women likewise be reverent in demeanor, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good;
4. that they may train the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
5. to be sober-minded, chaste, workers at home, kind, being in subjection to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed: titus 2:1-5

:thumb:

[Steven]

In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefastness and sobriety; not with braided hair, and gold or pearls or costly raiment;
10. but (which becometh women professing godliness) through good works.
11. Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.
12. But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve;
14. and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:
15. but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety

1 tim 2:9-15

:idea:

[Warcraft3]

Is truth more important than getting along?

At which point do we set aside the truth that we may fellowship with those who claim Christ, but teach egregious errors?

Let me try to take a stab at this..............

Most Christians I have met make one of two errors:
1 They believe showing love means that you never ever point out errors or take a strong stand. These are the "oh just love everybody" Christians who remind me more of someone who is high on drugs than a sincere loving person.
2 They believe that "taking a stand" means constantly pointing out why everyone else is wrong and why they are right. These are the people who think that every single theological point is an essential one and often argue over things which really dont matter.


Both groups are very skilled at quoting scripture and one-liners at others to support their position. They rarely produce positive results and often drive people away. So how does one know when to speak strongly and when to show restraint?

WISDOM
You must have wisdom and compassion and you must be PRAYING. I remember back when I was walking with God I was witnessing to a friend of mine who was a Buddist.

We frequently had discussions about everything from evolution, to other religions, to how to interpret scripture, to just about any topic you could think of related to religion. This went on for several months and eventually my friend accepted Christ.

He told me one day that the thing which convinced him the most was the compassion he saw in me. Not the miracles he experienced, not my arguments, not my debating skill, and not my patience. My compassion.

I knew when I should take a stand and when to show restraint, because I had supernatural wisdom and insight. But even when I did "take a hard stand" with my friend, I did so with a wisdom and compassion obtained from many hours of prayer.

There is no formula to this. You can not learn it and you can not teach it. It comes from the wisdom and compassion you obtain from spending time on your knees. Winning debates does not equal winning souls, and having a good argument is no substitute for having a good prayer life. Telling someone that they are in need of salvation is not the same as showing them they are in need of salvation.

Words not backed up by prayer are powerless.


Russ

[Steven]

steadele,

you mentioned that you witnessed to a buddhist, and that the thing that convinced him the most to accept Christ was your compassion.

was there a fear of God in this individual's conversion? The fear that God has the power to cast into hell? did he repent? in his conversion did he confess he was a sinner? did he merely make a verbal affiration or did he deny buddhism and accept Christ as being the only way to salvation? is he currently walking with the Lord?

Tolerance is important when you are a team player, but our 'team' has already won the eteranl victory; in a believer's life the Scriptures are pre-eminant.

- Steven

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 01:45 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=87819#post87819)
Steven:

steadele,

you mentioned that you witnessed to a buddhist, and that the thing that convinced him the most to accept Christ was your compassion.
This was one of many things. But yes, it had the greatest impact from what he told me.



You then ask me several questions. I will ignore the subtle implications I see in your questions and will simply answer them.
was there a fear of God in this individual's conversion? Yes
The fear that God has the power to cast into hell? Yes
did he repent? Yes in his conversion did he confess he was a sinner? Yes did he merely make a verbal affiration or did he deny buddhism and accept Christ as being the only way to salvation? He did indeed accept Christ as the only way and reject his former beliefs is he currently walking with the Lord?
I am no longer in contact with him, but last i heard yes.


Tolerance is important when you are a team player, but our 'team' has already won the eteranl victory; in a believer's life the Scriptures are pre-eminant.
This statement is said in such a way that one assumes you are trying to correct me of some possible error you see. I am not sure how you drew the implied conclusions from my post.


Russ

[Steven]

steadele,

actually i wasn't referring my last bit there to you, but was making peace with the thread.

The reason I asked you those questions is that we live in a day of 'easy believism': you sign a card or contract, make a verbal confession, respond to some alter call and this emotional expereince is considered by most compassion and salvation, with no concern for the Lordship of Christ.

No, i was not trying to be delibarately offensive by asking.

Blessings,

Steven

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 12:11 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=87757#post87757)
Triphicus:

what makes you think I am angry?? I am not judging you. Merely trying to understand what point you are trying to make?? What I have said, I have said out of love. You are the one who seems to speak from anger.. But I am not to judge you... As I said in my first post, live and let live. You have said and done nothing to disprove me, I was merely giving you an opportunity.. I apologize if you have taken offense to that friend.. God Bless You!

Triphicus:

I would like to know what you mean by the statement live and let live . I find the implications of that statement somewhat troubling and would like to know exactly what you mean by it.

Thanks


Russ
:read:

[Ethos]

I mean that Jesus Christ practiced tolerance. One of the most important commandments that God put forth to us was:
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
I am not saying that I wish to have constant company with evildoers... I am merely saying that I will not cut down and throw stones at people with different beliefs than mine.
And in doing so, I am only following Gods instructrions..

Judge Not lest you be Judged
Love thy neighbor as thyself

You can catch a lot more bees with honey than with vinegar anyways. And I think that "Christians" that come from hatefulness give Christianity a bad name..

Is the way some of you act towards others, the way Jesus would have acted??

Just a question to ask yourselves... I am not judging you.

[Ethos]

Oh and Steadele,
I am not "high on drugs" because I love... My love and sincerity comes from one source. The one source who has planted an eternal peace in my heart, to give me strength to see me through any undertaking (God willing), and has even given me the capacity to forgive and love people like Steven, and not let cruel and hateful words, flung like swords at my side, bring me down. That source is God! Allelujiah!!

But for the record, I dont even drink coffee, much less do drugs... Yuck, my body is a temple..

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 12:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=88125#post88125)
Triphicus:

I mean that Jesus Christ practiced tolerance. One of the most important commandments that God put forth to us was:
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
I am not saying that I wish to have constant company with evildoers... I am merely saying that I will not cut down and throw stones at people with different beliefs than mine.
Ok. I agree with you that cutting people down and "throwing stones at people" is not the way we should express our disagreements. There is a way to disagree and still be non-combatative.

And in doing so, I am only following Gods instructrions..

Judge Not lest you be Judged
Love thy neighbor as thyself
Sarah, please be careful when quoting scripture. Especially one liners with no surrounding text. Notice that the vese which says, "Judge not lest ye be judged" also says "for by what measure you judge, you yourself will be judged". Christ is not saying that we do not have a right to judge peoples actions, but He is saying that if and when you do judge be careful to do so righteously. In other words do not be a hyprocrite.

The "love thy neighbor as thyself" verse is making a point of living life unselfishly and putting others first.

You can catch a lot more bees with honey than with vinegar anyways. And I think that "Christians" that come from hatefulness give Christianity a bad name..
Yes any Christian coming from hatefullness is not walking in the spirit and is not coming from a position of wisdom and prayer. But there is a time and place to point out sin and "judge" others. The problem is most people do so without any real spiritual power, authority, compassion, or wisdom and end up attacking the person instead of the actions or ideas. It takes much prayer to have the discernment and wisdom to know when to be vocal and when to show restraint. There is a place for both.



Russ
:rockon:

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 12:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=88133#post88133)
Triphicus:

Oh and Steadele,
I am not "high on drugs" because I love... My love and sincerity comes from one source. The one source who has planted an eternal peace in my heart, to give me strength to see me through any undertaking (God willing), and has even given me the capacity to forgive and love people like Steven, and not let cruel and hateful words, flung like swords at my side, bring me down. That source is God! Allelujiah!!

But for the record, I dont even drink coffee, much less do drugs... Yuck, my body is a temple..

Nowhere did I imply you were on drugs. In fact I have not implied that anyone on this forum does drugs in any of my posts. I think you may have missed the point of my comment.


Russ

[Ethos]

Today @ 06:00 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=88140#post88140)
steadele:



Nowhere did I imply you were on drugs. In fact I have not implied that anyone on this forum does drugs in any of my posts. I think you may have missed the point of my comment.


Russ

I know, I know, You didn't imply that I was on drugs. I was just making a reference to that post. Since I am, in fact, one of those types of Christians that comes from love.. No Worries though! I was never saying that you thought me to be on drugs, merely that I wasn't, and I was explaining why I take the viewpoint that I do..

Are any of our hands so clean that we may ever cast the first stone?

Have a grrrrreat day!! And God Bless You

[Ethos]

Oh and Russ, one more thing. You seem to be a very wise person. Good Job!!

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 01:06 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=88147#post88147)
Triphicus:



I know, I know, You didn't imply that I was on drugs. I was just making a reference to that post. Since I am, in fact, one of those types of Christians that comes from love.. No Worries though! I was never saying that you thought me to be on drugs, merely that I wasn't, and I was explaining why I take the viewpoint that I do..

Im not sure what your viewpoint is exactly. You say that you are the type of "Christian that comes from love". Now I believe all Christians should be that type and if you are then I commend you with all my heart.
I was referring to a specific type of Chrsitian who, believes showing love means that you never ever point out errors or take a strong stand.
So I guess I should ask you..... do you believe that you should never ever point out error or take a strong stand? If you do not believe this then my comment is not referring to you.

Are any of our hands so clean that we may ever cast the first stone?
I believe there is a difference between judging and condeming. The people who were going to stone the woman were not interested in Gods laws or judgment. They were not righteous judges. There is a time to "judge" and a time to show restraint. Love unchecked by wisdom can be just as harmful as knowledge or faith unchecked by wisdom.

Have a grrrrreat day!! And God Bless You

You have a grrrrreat day too Sarah. And may God Bless You also.


Russ


:pray:

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 01:10 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=88151#post88151)
Triphicus:

Oh and Russ, one more thing. You seem to be a very wise person. Good Job!!

Thank you Sarah. Unfortunately I have been through alot of things in my life and my spiritual life is struggling. Please pray for me, I need it.

Russ

[Ethos]

Okay, I wil ddefinitly do so. Right now! God Bless You. And remember, God never gives us more than we can handle.

[Steven]

trif

To your question, 'Are you a Christian?' I reply:

ABSOLUTELY

Through Jesus Christ alone, by His grace through faith.

- Steven

[HemofHisGarment]

04-02-2003 @ 07:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51615#post51615)
Justified:

It is not possible to set aside the truth to fellowship because fellowship is agreement of the truth.
:no:
Random House Unabridged Dictionary~
1. the condition or relation of being a fellow [note that fellow creature is defined as a kindred creature, esp. a fellow human being] 2. friendly relationship; companionship 3. community of interest, feeling, etc. 4. communion [note that fellowman is defined as another member of the human race, esp. as a kindred human being] 5. friendliness [defined as kind, helpful, favorably disposed; inclined to approve, help, support; amicable, kind-hearted, benevolent, well-disposed]

Humans, as kindred beings, can always remain benevolently disposed towards each other - whether at home, online, next door, or at work. In additon, when one professes to be in fellowship with Christ, this favorable disposition is expected; any other attitude would contradict one's profession of Christian belief. Mere pretensions are always exposed, much like those of the Pharisees.
2 Corinthians Ch. 6 ...receive not the grace of God in vain...giving no offence in any thing...by love unfeigned

[Justified]

Hem,

I was responding to this question:

At which point do we set aside the truth that we may fellowship with those who claim Christ, but teach egregious errors?

I believe the scriptures agree with me.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2 Cor. 6:14

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2 Tim. 4:2
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Tim. 4:3
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Tim. 4:4

[HemofHisGarment]

Yesterday @ 10:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=98081#post98081)
Justified:

Hem,
I was responding to this question:
I believe the scriptures agree with me.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2 Cor. 6:14

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2 Tim. 4:2
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Tim. 4:3
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Tim. 4:4

Your response, i.e. your assumption, as always, that the scriptures agree with you, is what *I* was responding to.

The scripture that you have quoted speaks of UNBELIEVERS.
Also, fellowshipping can involve rebuke, can it not?
My point is that if you only fellowship with those who agree with YOUR truth, then who will you fellowship with???

[HemofHisGarment]

05-14-2003 @ 09:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=96850#post96850)
HemofHisGarment:


:no:
Random House Unabridged Dictionary~
1. the condition or relation of being a fellow [note that fellow creature is defined as a kindred creature, esp. a fellow human being] 2. friendly relationship; companionship 3. community of interest, feeling, etc. 4. communion [note that fellowman is defined as another member of the human race, esp. as a kindred human being] 5. friendliness [defined as kind, helpful, favorably disposed; inclined to approve, help, support; amicable, kind-hearted, benevolent, well-disposed]

Humans, as kindred beings, can always remain benevolently disposed towards each other - whether at home, online, next door, or at work. In additon, when one professes to be in fellowship with Christ, this favorable disposition is expected; any other attitude would contradict one's profession of Christian belief. Mere pretensions are always exposed, much like those of the Pharisees.
2 Corinthians Ch. 6 ...receive not the grace of God in vain...giving no offence in any thing...by love unfeigned

[bonehead]

I feel I can have fellowship with anyone as a christian, " as far as it lies within you, live peacably with all men". But it is my job in Christ to warn him of the comming judgement, and God`s provisions for it. I hope that whoever he is, I make the gospel known to him. Plant the seed so to speek, but I keep in mind that when you plant seeds, sometimes there is a long wait before anything comes up. How we react to his doubts or rejection represents for him our Lord, so we should handle it carfully. But I only accept as brother the ones who accept Jesus as God`s messiah, and his death as what makes us acceptable before God. As adults, we put up with strange things from children, so long as they are not to their hurt. But no adult can claim to love a child if he lets him play in the street simply because he wants to or thinks its the right thing to do. So the mature among Gods people should have the same attatude tward the babes in Christ. We shouldn`t let them vere from the fundimentals, But tolerating minor errors in theology is scriptual (Romans 14), and like the dear brother in one of the posts above said, any correction should be done with upmost compassion so as not to offend one for whom Christ died! Build Christ`s Church, don`t tear it down. If you correct without compasson you come across as arrogant, and risk driving the person away from Christ. Jesus had compasson on all but the self-rightous, and we should follow his lead.