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Gavin
April 3rd 2003, 03:31 AM
Recently some strongly charismatic Christian friends of mine were advocating the view that since Christmas comes from pagan origins, and it is embraced by the secular culture today, it is wrong for Christians to practice it.

What do you think about this?

I tend to disagree, although I do think that there are better ways to celebrate Christmas than some Christians do.

Boy is this thread out of season. . . .:rofl:

Solly
April 3rd 2003, 03:53 AM
Yeh, and we did it all at TOL too.

Christmas: let's rock!!

Woman
April 3rd 2003, 04:36 AM
Calvin,

What does strongly Charismatic mean? What denomination is this?

Socrates
April 3rd 2003, 05:45 AM
Christians have the freedom in Christ to celebrate or ignore it, as long as the means of celebration are not unscriptural. Romans 14:5-6 says:


5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Colossians 2:16 says:

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

These articles from CRI are helpful.


Should Christians Observe Christmas?
STATEMENT DC335 www.equip.org/free/DC335.htm

by Elliot Miller

As a young Roman Catholic, Christmas was my favorite time of year — filled with magic and meaning. The birth of Christ played a role in this festal feeling, but so did Santa Claus and all the more temporal pleasures of the season. As I grew older, I not only lost faith in Santa Claus but in Christ as well. The residual sentiment I retained for Christmas was hard to justify.

After I became a born-again Christian, I welcomed the opportunity not only to recapture the spirit of the season, but also truly to appreciate, for the first time, its spiritual significance. I did enjoy a couple of meaningful Christmases. Then I started witnessing to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Time and again the Witnesses would cite the Trinity and Christmas as clear proof that "Christendom" had lapsed into paganism. The Trinity I could answer for biblically, but Christmas was harder to defend. It was certainly not a holy day instituted in the Bible. And pre-Christian, pagan Rome had indeed observed the Day of the Invincible Sun on December 25. In fact, in many ancient cultures, customs and festivities later associated with Christmas (e.g., Yule logs, mistletoe, and even the giving of gifts) were observed in honor of the sun god’s resurgence at the winter solstice.

I never totally abandoned Christmas — it’s not easy for a Christian to reject a holiday that celebrates the birth of his Lord. But the pagan connections troubled me, and my observance of the day became halfhearted.

Eventually, however, I came to the conclusion that just as pagans and pagan temples can be converted and sanctified to Christian service, so too can pagan holidays and even some of the traditions associated with them (those that are not inherently immoral or idolatrous). The critical issue is: What significance do we currently attach to previously pagan practices? (See 1 Cor. 8:4–7; 10:25–31.)

Since Christmas is not legislated in the Bible, it should not be considered essential to Christian practice. Christians do not need to defend it to Jehovah’s Witnesses and other cultists with the same zeal with which they would defend the doctrines of the Trinity or eternal punishment. In fact, it would even be acceptable if a sincere Christian told a Jehovah’s Witness, "If you don’t want to observe Christmas, that’s fine. I myself do not observe it." But that same Christian would have no business judging those Christians who do partake in the holiday.

Christmas is a good example of what Paul had in mind when he wrote: "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord....You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat" (Rom. 14:5-6, 10; NIV).


This article first appeared in the Fall 1997 issue of the Christian Research Journal.


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Phone (949) 858-6100 and Fax (949) 858-6111


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STATEMENT DC336

Christ in Christmas

Christmas — bright lights, glittery trees, children’s squeals of excitement, church chimes in frosty air, the press of shoppers — memories of Christmas. Oh, yes, almost forgotten — in a scratched, wobbly, wooden manger on a church's front lawn, there's a baby doll, plastic fingers upraised in frozen appeal, alone in the night.

Christmas has forgotten Christ. For many, celebrating Jesus’ birth has little to do with Christmas, and even many Christians don’t know how to “put Christ back into Christmas.” I believe we can overcome the commercialism and paganism with the Good News — “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Below I have used a C–H–R–I–S–T–M–A–S acronym to explain how to honor Jesus Christ this Christmas.

C, the first letter in Christmas, stands for the person who alone gives any day eternal significance: Christ our Lord. It is easy to shove Christ aside on this holiday, but we should celebrate the birth of Jesus, whose very name means “the Lord is salvation” and whose title, “Christ,” points to His role as the Redeemer of humankind. If Jesus is not Christ in your life, celebrating the birth of an obscure Jewish carpenter’s son is meaningless to you.

H stands for history. The birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ are not myths or fantasy, but are historical realities. That God became man in Jesus Christ is an actual, testable historical event. Christmas reminds us that Christ is not just a warm feeling in our hearts, or an imaginary therapist enabling us to face life’s traumas.

We don’t know the exact day of the year Jesus was born.1 We do know, however, that the December 25 date was advocated as early as about A.D. 220.2 The church may have chosen to celebrate on December 25 as a triumph of Christianity over paganism because it came right after the Roman holiday of Saturnalia, one of the popular pagan winter solstice holidays (December 17-24).

R stands for rejoice, an appropriate response in recognition of what Christ has done. Favorite Christmas hymns show that rejoicing has always been an integral part of Christmas. We should rejoice because Christ came, not because of a nice present or a week off! We should rejoice like the psalmist, who said: “Come, let us rejoice in him” (Ps. 66:6).

I stands for the Incarnation, describing that glorious event in which God became man. Christ is not only eternal God (John 1:1), but at a time in history He became man as well (John 1:14). Matthew's gospel says, “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel — which means, God with us” (Matt. 1:23).

S stands for St. Nicholas, the fourth century bishop of Myra, a Christian whose story — embellished by years of telling — nevertheless exemplifies Christian faithfulness and charity. Christmas should remind us of the faithfulness of God, without which we have no hope of redemption through His greatest gift, His Son (John 3:16). Little historical knowledge is available concerning St. Nicholas,3 commonly called by his German/English equivalent, Santa Claus. But he is known for kindness to children in need, and for his commitment to Christ through persecution and martyrdom. Many traditions associated with Santa Claus are objectionable — especially that he is all-knowing or able to be present everywhere. However, the themes of faithfulness and charity are biblical and honor Jesus Christ.

T stands for tradition, the stories and customs associated with Christmas. Christmas traditions are of three types: (1) those strictly non-Christian, inappropriate for Christians; (2) those that were initially pagan but were changed to affirm the gospel; and (3) those developed within the church.4 One inappropriate tradition from early pagan mid-winter festivals is drunkenness and immorality. The drunken Christmas party may reflect Rome’s ancient Saturnalia, but has nothing to do with celebration of Christ’s birth.

Some Christians think the Christmas tree is a pagan tradition forbidden by Jeremiah 10:2-4. However, the Jeremiah passage is not about trees dedicated to one day of the year (Christmas); rather, it refers to permanent, all-year-round idols carved out of wood and covered with gold and silver. The Christmas tree actually symbolizes that Jesus brings us eternal life (the evergreen) and is the light of the world (lights or candles).

Likewise, boughs of holly with red berries and green leaves represent Christ’s shed blood on the cross and eternal life. Even the candy cane/shepherd’s crook represents Jesus as our Shepherd. While tradition is no substitute for dynamic personal faith, it enhances our appreciation of Christ's birth.

M stands for the magi, or wise men, directed by God to find and worship Christ. We shouldn’t forget that no one is wealthy enough, powerful enough, or far enough away that he or she should not bow before Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim. 6:15).

A stands for advent, a word referring to Christ's coming. Christ came once in Bethlehem — as an infant who grew to manhood, died for our sins, and rose again the third day. Christians eagerly look forward to His Second Coming — “the blessed hope” (Titus 2:13). Many churches conduct advent services for the four weeks prior to Christmas, encouraging Christians to look forward to the birthday of Christ and also to His Second Coming.

S stands for salvation, made possible by the coming of Christ. The gospel story is so simple we often forget it, but so profound it affects every individual. We are all sinners, separated from God, with absolutely no way to reach God except He reached down to us through His Son. With the coming of Christmas comes recognition that because He came, He died, and because He died and lives again, we also may live (Rom. 6:8; 8:11).

Christmas is not primarily a celebration of human life, although each human life is valuable; not primarily a celebration of peace and love, although peace and love are noble. The center and circumference of Christmas should be the celebration of the birth of our Lord: “I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:10-11).

— Hank Hanegraaff

(Based upon the article originally printed in the From the President column of the Christian Research Newsletter, Volume 5: Number 5, 1992)

NOTES
1. He may have been born in the fall, based on information in the Bible on the birth of John the Baptist and his father Zacharias’s priestly schedule (1 Chron. 24:10; Luke 1:5, 9, 23-24, 26, 36, 56).

2. See Harold W. Hoehner’s Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1977), 25-26.

3. When I use the term saint, I am not implying that only extraordinary Christians are “saints.” Verses such as Psalm 30:4, Romans 8:27, and Ephesians 6:16 declare that all believers are saints. Nicholas is, however, an excellent example and role model of a “saint.”

4. See Clement A. Miles, Christmas Customs and Traditions, (New York: Dover Publications, n.d.).


CRI, P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688

Phone (949) 858-6100 and Fax (949) 858-6111

*********************************



ARE CHRISTMAS TREES IDOLATROUS?
CRI PERSPECTIVE CP9003
www.equip.org/free/CP9003.htm

An argument against Christmas which you hear quite a bit these days is that Christmas trees are condemned in the Bible. Is this really true?

Sometimes it is said that Christmas trees are condemned in Jeremiah 10, verses 2-4, where God says "the customs of the peoples are delusion, because it is wood cut from the forest, the work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool. They decorate it with silver and gold, they fasten it with nails and a hammer so that it will not totter."

Although this may sound like a reference to Christmas trees, it really is not. In this passage God is condemning idols which are carved out of wood and used as objects of worship; thus, in the very next verse God ridicules the idols because they cannot talk and cannot walk! Obviously, this criticism is not aimed at Christmas trees at all.

The fact of the matter is that the Christmas tree originated in Christian Germany about two thousand years after Jeremiah's criticisms of wooden idols. It originated from two Christian symbols found in homes at Christmas time. The first was a "Paradise tree," an evergreen which was hung with apples which represented the tree of life in the Garden of Eden. The second symbol was a "Christmas pyramid." This, of course, was a triangular shelf holding Christmas figurines and decorated with a star. By about the 16th century these two symbols had been combined into the Christian Christmas tree.

Thus, the Christmas tree is a thoroughly Christian symbol, and Christians ought not to feel guilty for having one of them in their home. On the other hand, the Christmas tree is not essential to Christmas, and Christians may, of course, do without it if they choose to. If you see a Christmas tree in the home of a non-Christian friend or a relative, you might take the opportunity to point to it as the symbol of the fact that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem so that they might have eternal life.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION

For further information on the origins of Christmas traditions and symbols, we recommend the audio cassette The Origins of Christmas (C220/$6.00), and the book Creating Christmas Memories (B540/$13.00). These resources are available through CRI's online bookstore by clicking on the title or by calling our Resource Center at (888)7000-CRI or by mailing a check or money order to PO Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688-7000.

CRI, P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688
Phone (949) 858-6100 and Fax (949) 858-6111



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CRI PERSPECTIVE CP9004

SHOULD CHRISTIANS GIVE CHRISTMAS GIFTS?

Gift-giving at Christmas is a tradition steeped now in crass commercialism. Should Christians participate in the exchanging of Christmas presents?

The giving of gifts at Christmas is a custom which developed in imitation of the wise men, or Magi, who gave gifts to Christ [Matt. 2:11]. It is sometimes said, notably by the Jehovah's Witnesses, that this biblical event is irrelevant to Christmas gift-giving. For one thing, they claim, the word "Magi" should be translated "astrologers," and clearly God would not lead people to Christ through astrology. This claim is at best a half-truth: the Magi were trained not only in astrology, but also in all of the arts and sciences of their culture, so that the translation "wise men" is actually much more accurate than "astrologers." Besides, the Bible makes it very clear that the wise men were led by God, both by the star which led them to Christ [Matt. 2:9], and by the warning which they received in a dream not to go back to Herod, since it was given to protect Christ's life [Matt. 2:11].

Jehovah's Witnesses also point out that the wise men gave gifts to Christ, and they did not give gifts to one another. But that misses the point altogether. The now risen, glorified Jesus doesn't need anything in the first place; but if we give to others Jesus Christ considers that as good as giving to Him [Matt. 25:31-46].

For most people the really troublesome aspects of Christmas gift-giving is the commercialism attached to it and the pressure it often puts on people to give gifts to people because it's expected rather than freely given out of love. And you know, all of us can identify with that. But these are abuses and therefore do not invalidate the practice itself. What you ought to do is adopt sensible, biblically-based principles to guide your giving, and stick to them. Whatever you decide to give, give cheerfully, and use Christmas gifts to remind yourself and your loved ones of Jesus Christ, God's incomparable gift to us.

CRI, P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688
Phone (949) 858-6100 and Fax (949) 858-6111

Socrates
April 3rd 2003, 05:56 AM
Woman asks:What does strongly Charismatic mean? What denomination is this?A charismatic Christian is one who believes that certain supernatural gifts (Greek charismata) are still for today, e.g. "speaking in tongues". It is roughly synonymous with "Pentecostal", although the latter tends to apply to whole denominations that stress this issue, such as the Assemblies of God. "Charismatic" applies to individuals or congregations with the same theology but who are in "mainstream" denominations.

You might want to check out the Cessationism debates, as this is a rough antonym.

Having a legalistic view of Christmas has no relation to one's view on charismata.

Hitch
April 3rd 2003, 06:34 PM
If and how should believers celebrate Christmas?


Of course its been done wrong ,,, how many of you sent me a present last year?

H

Dave
April 4th 2003, 07:40 PM
Yesterday @ 02:31 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Gavin:

Recently some strongly charismatic Christian friends of mine were advocating the view that since Christmas comes from pagan origins, and it is embraced by the secular culture today, it is wrong for Christians to practice it.

What do you think about this?

I tend to disagree, although I do think that there are better ways to celebrate Christmas than some Christians do.

Boy is this thread out of season. . . .:rofl:

are any of these friends married? If so, ask them why they have rings on their fingers, as that is a pagan custom. What about Hannukah? That occurs around Christmas time. Maybe that's pagan too. And of course if anyone actually wants to know the reasoning behind Christmas and why it falls on that date, I would direct them to this article:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

Peace,
Dave

and then typing a few more words to get over 1000 characters.

Sozo
April 5th 2003, 12:53 AM
I don't care

Socrates
April 5th 2003, 02:34 AM
Dave:What about Hannukah? That occurs around Christmas time. Maybe that's pagan too.Come off it Dave -- it's Jewish!! Jesus Himself celebrated it:

John 10:22 Now the feast of the dedication was celebrating at Jerusalem, and it was winter.

The Hebrew for "dedication" is chanukkah. Easton's Revised Bible Dictionary says it was ...:

... the feast of the renewing. It was instituted B.C. 164 to commemorate the purging of the temple after its pollution by Antiochus Epiphanes (B.C. 167) and the rebuilding of the altar after the Syrian invaders had been driven out by Judas Maccabaeus. It lasted for eight days, beginning on the 25th of the month Chisleu (December), which was often a period of heavy rains # Ezr 10:9,13 It was an occasion of much rejoicing and festivity. But there were other dedications of the temple.

Dave
April 5th 2003, 01:21 PM
Today @ 01:34 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Socrates:

Dave:What about Hannukah? That occurs around Christmas time. Maybe that's pagan too.Come off it Dave -- it's Jewish!! Jesus Himself celebrated it:



The Hebrew for "dedication" is chanukkah. Easton's Revised Bible Dictionary says it was ...:

you do realize that it was sarcasm? People like to say that because the date for the celebration is December 25 that it is pagan in origin. So I merely pointed out that Hannukah occurs around the same time.

sheesh.

Socrates
April 6th 2003, 01:12 AM
OK Dave, I see your point :cheers:

Steven
April 18th 2003, 06:16 PM
one full of sap and squirrels.

If that is not enough drag some of those poison holly berries in your home and deck the deck with it. Still not quite satified? Max out the credit cards and buy gifts for those who dont need them. Then, we can all sing..."angels we have heard on high, tell us to go out and BUY..."

With proper religious voracity you can tell all your friends that 'Jesus is the reason for the spending season'.

:cheers:

Happy Easter eveyone!

Steven

www.informationgospel.net

Woman
April 18th 2003, 06:39 PM
I agree with Soc that it's a personal decision. Tradition and man's natural desire for roots, meaning in continuity and ritual are perfectly understandable.

Sure a lot of "pagan" expressions were absorbed into religious holidays and tradition. That is a societal and cultural phenomenon and I don't think it negates the intent of holy days.

Non Christians are subject to the joy of Christmas too. For them it symbolizes family and generousity of spirit and the hope on peace on earth.

As a non-Christian I value and love Christ's message of love and peace. I celebrate Christmas for different reasons that they do, but don't feel like we are hijacking the tradition.

There aren't any guidlines about "Christmas" in the Bible. I don't think birthdays are even mentioned, are they?

Some Christians don't celebrate. Some celebrate in a legalistic way without gift giving or the "trimmings." Others are just joyous celebrants who happily embrace all the signs of the season...decorated trees, holly, yule logs and presents. I'd think that as long as they aren't worshipping the Devil by their actions it should remain a personal, family, regional and cultural choice.

simchat_torah
April 20th 2003, 12:38 AM
Channukah is actually the antithesis of paganism.

Socrates correctly pointed out that Y'shua celebrated Channukah himself. However, the origins of Channukah come from when the Jews destroyed the pagan symbols the Romans had set up in the Temple. It is referred to the festival of lights as the Jews lit the lights in the Temple after the Temple had been cleared of the pagan idols.



People like to say that because the date for the celebration is December 25 that it is pagan in origin.


I won't get into the specifics of the argument in this thread right now, however, December 25th was specifically chosen because of it's pagan origins. It is not a coincidence. You see, the original author of this thread was pointing out the 'ORIGINS' of the Christmas celebration were pagan. Channukah's ORIGINS are quite the opposite.

Anyway, I've probably said too much already....

Shalom,
Yafet.

Dave
April 20th 2003, 08:22 PM
Yesterday @ 11:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=73752#post73752)
simchat_torah:

Channukah is actually the antithesis of paganism.

Socrates correctly pointed out that Y'shua celebrated Channukah himself. However, the origins of Channukah come from when the Jews destroyed the pagan symbols the Romans had set up in the Temple. It is referred to the festival of lights as the Jews lit the lights in the Temple after the Temple had been cleared of the pagan idols.




I won't get into the specifics of the argument in this thread right now, however, December 25th was specifically chosen because of it's pagan origins. It is not a coincidence. You see, the original author of this thread was pointing out the 'ORIGINS' of the Christmas celebration were pagan. Channukah's ORIGINS are quite the opposite.

Anyway, I've probably said too much already....

Shalom,
Yafet.

actually, the day of observance of our Lord's birth was set to December 25th for a number of reasons. Among which was different days in the year for it's observance and wanting to solidify into just one day.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

simchat_torah
April 20th 2003, 10:40 PM
However, December 25th was specifically chosen because of the birth of Mithra, the sun diety's birthdate.