RCC Priest problem still a problem

[themuzicman]

The Grand Rapids Catholic Diocese now admits it was aware that one of its priests may have been acting inappropriately with women and girls.

Father Shamaun Beas of Saint Patrick's Church in Portland is charged with eight crimes including using a computer to meet a minor for sex. He was arrested after a sting near Detroit.

24 Hour News 8 called the diocese to ask about the priest's past. We received this statement from the diocese:

“During his time here, there were indications of questionable behavior involving Father Beas. He was sent for an evaluation and counseling... He cooperated fully.”

Father Shamaun Beas was scheduled to leave the church in Portland at the end of the month.

He is a Pakistani priest who had been serving an internship as an associate pastor in the Ionia County church.

The diocese says it's now reevaluating its screening process for those it admits into the church.

I see the church hasn't exactly worked out all the bugs, or decided to remove sexual offenders from the priesthood, yet.

Michael

[Agent Yoshi]

And guess what? Non-Catholic Churches have the same amount of problems with this issue. Get over it.

[themuzicman]

It's not the priests... It's the fact that the Catholic church doesn't DO anything about them, until they're caught by the public!

Michael

[Agent Yoshi]

Protestants have the exact same problem! Heck, even the Mormons have had this same problem before!

It's not the priests... It's the fact that the Catholic church doesn't DO anything about them, until they're caught by the public!

Michael

[themuzicman]

Their denominations covering up sexual molestation and moving priests from one place to another, so they can molest again? Not familliar with any of those cases...

Michael

[spl_cadet]

Their denominations covering up sexual molestation and moving priests from one place to another, so they can molest again? Not familliar with any of those cases...

Considering how small most Protestant denominations are and the lack of any actual heirarchy, it's a bit harder.

There was quite an extensive case among the JWs though.

[Ric]

The Grand Rapids Catholic Diocese now admits it was aware that one of its priests may have been acting inappropriately with women and girls.

Father Shamaun Beas of Saint Patrick's Church in Portland is charged with eight crimes including using a computer to meet a minor for sex. He was arrested after a sting near Detroit.

24 Hour News 8 called the diocese to ask about the priest's past. We received this statement from the diocese:

“During his time here, there were indications of questionable behavior involving Father Beas. He was sent for an evaluation and counseling... He cooperated fully.”

Father Shamaun Beas was scheduled to leave the church in Portland at the end of the month.

He is a Pakistani priest who had been serving an internship as an associate pastor in the Ionia County church.

The diocese says it's now reevaluating its screening process for those it admits into the church.

I see the church hasn't exactly worked out all the bugs, or decided to remove sexual offenders from the priesthood, yet.

Michael


Sad but true! Sigh! ........................................................................................................................................................................................................ ................................. :(

[kofh2u]

Sad but true! Sigh! ........................................................................................................................................................................................................ ................................. :(

Mt 18:6 (NASB): "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea.

There are millions of RC members who are as meritorious as Sister Theresa... but, the Church will be harshly punished in loss of membership. On good authority, it is suspected that the next two Popes will be the last! The last will be Pope Peter of Rome.

Those who are counting the number of abuses can only imagine the days of Universal Catholic power...

Rev. 2:20 Not withstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that "woman," Jezebel (tolerating this sexually deviant sect of celibacy), which calleth herself a prophetess (imbued, supposedly with the spirit of our Lord, which is the Spirit of prophecy), to teach and to seduce my servants, (the congregation), to commit (the) fornication (of pedophilia); and to eat, (in their sodomies, the very) things (Ba'al) sacrificed once to idols, (the phallus).

Rev. 2:21 And I gave this her (this sect within the Universal Catholic Church) space (of 400 years) to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev. 2:22 Behold, I will cast her, (the pedaphiles), into a bed, and them, (their protectors), that commit adultery with her (against their vows in the Universal Church of Catholicism) into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

[Jude3b]

The Grand Rapids Catholic Diocese now admits it was aware that one of its priests may have been acting inappropriately with women and girls.

Father Shamaun Beas of Saint Patrick's Church in Portland is charged with eight crimes including using a computer to meet a minor for sex. He was arrested after a sting near Detroit.

24 Hour News 8 called the diocese to ask about the priest's past. We received this statement from the diocese:

“During his time here, there were indications of questionable behavior involving Father Beas. He was sent for an evaluation and counseling... He cooperated fully.”

Father Shamaun Beas was scheduled to leave the church in Portland at the end of the month.

He is a Pakistani priest who had been serving an internship as an associate pastor in the Ionia County church.

The diocese says it's now reevaluating its screening process for those it admits into the church.

I see the church hasn't exactly worked out all the bugs, or decided to remove sexual offenders from the priesthood, yet.

Michael

Roman Catholicism commands Celibacy in violation of the Word of God. Celibacy in the Roman Priesthood adds to the problem and encourages sexual sin in the Roman Priesthood.

"Marriage is honourable in all..." (Hebrews 13:4)

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..." (I Tim. 3:2)

"... the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." (Gen. 2:18)

Not only does God express His approval of marriage, He delivers this powerful warning and it applies directly to the apostate church of Roman Catholicism:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (I Tim. 4:1-3).

Not only is CELIBACY not required by God, it IS a DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.

[spl_cadet]

Is it just me, or do fundies take mind altering drugs?

And Jude, I know this is going to hurt you, but: Celibacy is not a doctrine.

[brother vinny]

Is it just me, or do fundies take mind altering drugs?

It's just you taking the mind-altering drugs. :wink: Fundies are that way naturally.

And Jude, I know this is going to hurt you, but: Celibacy is not a doctrine.

Shhh! If you try to introduce nuances, such as those between doctrine and discipline, into a nuance-free worldview, you run the risk of driving the subject even more insane than he is at present!

[VFarris01]

That J3b chooses to base his beliefs on the Bible instead of traditions of the RCC, many with their origin in paganism, shows his true character; a man in the mold of the Bereans of Acts 17.

[brother vinny]

That J3b chooses to base his beliefs on the Bible instead of traditions of the RCC, many with their origin in paganism, shows his true character; a man in the mold of the Bereans of Acts 17.

Ah, but what does he base his Bible on? (I'll give you a hint: it starts with a "T" and has nine letters. . . :teeth:)

[VFarris01]

Ah, but what does he base his Bible on? (I'll give you a hint: it starts with a "T" and has nine letters. . . :teeth:)
(1) "Stop judging, so that you won't be judged. (2) For with the judgment you use, you will be judged. And with the measure you use, you will be measured. (3) "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? (4) Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when the beam is in your own eye? (5) You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

[brother vinny]

(1) "Stop judging, so that you won't be judged. (2) For with the judgment you use, you will be judged. And with the measure you use, you will be measured. (3) "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? (4) Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when the beam is in your own eye? (5) You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

What application for these verses do you see here? :huh:

[Jude3b]

Roman Catholicism commands Celibacy in violation of the Word of God. Celibacy in the Roman Priesthood adds to the problem and encourages sexual sin in the Roman Priesthood.

"Marriage is honourable in all..." (Hebrews 13:4)

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..." (I Tim. 3:2)

"... the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." (Gen. 2:18)

Not only does God express His approval of marriage, He delivers this powerful warning and it applies directly to the apostate church of Roman Catholicism:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (I Tim. 4:1-3).

Not only is CELIBACY not required by God, it IS a DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.

Reference:

The Roman Catholic doctrine of celibacy (doctrine of demons) - as stated in the 1994 version of the Roman Catholic Catechism on page 395, #1579:

"All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate 'for the sake of the kingdom of heaven'... Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God."

One must wonder why Roman Catholicism would teach that celibacy "radiantly proclaims the Reign of God," when the Lord has declared that this doctrine originated in hell and is a doctrine of demons.

Is it because the Roman Catholic church does not want to pay the millions of dollars it would cost each year to support the families of priests and nuns?

[spl_cadet]

Jude, there are thousands of married Catholic priests out there, who are active in the priesthood. Celibacy is not a doctrine.

[Jude3b]

Jude, there are thousands of married Catholic priests out there, who are active in the priesthood. Celibacy is not a doctrine.

So, SPL_cadet, you no longer belive the Roman Catholic catechism, which states Celibacy as a doctrine???

[VFarris01]

(1) "Stop judging, so that you won't be judged. (2) For with the judgment you use, you will be judged. And with the measure you use, you will be measured. (3) "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? (4) Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when the beam is in your own eye? (5) You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."


What application for these verses do you see here? :huh:
The preceeding verses apply to you and spl_cadet.

God has removed the "beam" from my eye.

(1) If I speak in the tongues of humans and angels but have no love, I have become a reverberating gong or a clashing cymbal. (2) If I have the gift of prophecy and can understand all secrets and every form of knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains but have no love, I am nothing. (3) Even if I give away all that I have and surrender my body so that I may boast but have no love, I get nothing out of it. (4) Love is always patient, Love is always kind, Love is never envious Or vaunted up with pride. Nor is she conceited, (5) And never is she rude, Never does she think of self Or ever get annoyed. She never is resentful, (6) Is never glad with sin, But always glad to side with truth, Whene'er the truth should win. (7) She bears up under everything, Believes the best in all, There is no limit to her hope, And never will she fall. (8) Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are tongues, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with. (9) For what we know is incomplete and what we prophesy is incomplete. (10) But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with. (11) When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, and reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up my childish ways. (12) Now we see only a blurred reflection in a mirror, but then we will see face to face. Now what I know is incomplete, but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. (13) Right now three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

[brother vinny]

[indent]
The preceeding verses apply to you and spl_cadet.


How so? How do you seek to group us? Cadet's Catholic, and I'm leaning more toward Reformed Theology.

And how does any of this relate to where the Bible originates?

[VFarris01]

Seem celibacy is a "law."
With regard to the law of celibacy and its canonical effects in the Western Church at the present day, only one or two points can be briefly touched upon. For the details the reader must be referred to such a work as that of Wernz "Jus Decretalium", II, 295-321. Clerk in minor orders, as already stated, as free to marry, and by such marriages they forfeit the privilegia canonis and the privilegia fori only in part, provided they observe the required conditions (cf. Decreta Conc. Trid., Sess XIII, cap. vi); though in our day such observance is practically impossible; but they are incapable of being promoted to sacred orders unless they separate from their wives, and make a vow of perpetual continence. Further, if as clerks they held any benefice or ecclesiastical pension, these are at once forfeited by marriage, and the become incapable of acquiring any new benefice. Historically there has been some little variation of practice with regard to married clerks, and the severe measures enacted in their regard by Pope Alexander III were subsequently mitigated by Boniface VIII (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02662a.htm) and the Council of Trent. As regards ecclesiastics in sacred orders (i.e. the subdiaconate and those that follow), the teaching of both theologians and canonists alike, for many centuries past, has been unanimous as regards the facts, though some little divergence has existed regarding the manner of explaining them. All are agreed that the subdeacon in presenting himself of his own free will for ordination binds himself by a tacit vow of chastity (Wernz, IV, n. 393), and that this even constitutes a diriment impediment in view of any subsequent marriage. The idea of this votum annexum seems to be traceable in one form or another as far back as the time of Gregory the Great (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm). Although the opposition to the law of celibacy frequently took the form of open agitation, both in the earlier Middle Ages (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10285c.htm) and again at the Reformation period, only one such movement calls for notice in modern times. This was an association formed principally in Würtemberg and Baden in the early part of the nineteenth century to advocate the mitigation or repeal of the law of celibacy. The agitation was condemned by an Encyclical of Pope Gregory XVI (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07006a.htm), on 15 August, 1832, and no more permanent harm seems to have resulted than the publication of a certain amount of disaffected literature, such as the pretentious but extremely biased and inaccurate work on compulsory celibacy by the brothers Theiner, a book which at once prohibited by authority and repudiated by Aug. Theiner before he was reconciled to the Church.

To begin with, Jesus designated St. Peter, a married man, to be the first pope. Priests had married in Judaism (the priesthood itself was a hereditary profession), and it would seem that Christ accepted this part of the tradition in his choice of Peter. Although St. Paul believed that spreading the Gospel was easier for a man who didn’t have a family to provide for, he still mandated that bishops, elders and deacons be only “the husband of one wife.” (Even then, polygamy among all ranks of the clergy persisted, and by the third century bishops alone were required to be monogamous.)
The change began with the Council of Elvira in Spain in about 306, which prohibited bishops, deacons and priests from marrying. Shortly thereafter, the early church fathers began to stigmatize sex as sinful in their writings. St. Ambrose (340-397) wrote, “The ministerial office must be kept pure and unspoiled and must not be defiled by coitus,” and the former libertine St. Augustine (354-430) even went so far as to consider an erect penis a sign of man’s insubordination
With the advent of the Dark Ages around 500, the upheavals in society saw a decline in clerical discipline and with it, a return to marriage and even the keeping of concubines by priests. During this time, the wealth of the church was also increasing, a development not lost on Rome. Many priests were leaving church lands to their heirs, and others handed down land of their own through primogeniture. The Holy See saw that a return to the celibacy rule would result in a real-estate bonanza, and in about 1018 Pope Benedict VIII put teeth in the Elvira decree by forbidding descendents of priests to inherit property. Later, in the 11th century, Pope Gregory VII, who had assumed vast power by declaring himself the supreme authority over all souls, went even further by proscribing married priests from saying mass; he also forbid parishioners from attending masses said by them. Scholars believe that the first written law forbidding the clergy to marry was finally handed down at the Second Lateran Council in 1139.
Dissent persisted, though. At two 15th-century church councils, supporters of clerical marriage attempted to reintroduce the practice but were defeated by hard-liners, who tried to rewrite history by asserting that celibacy was apostolic in its origins. The law finally became official doctrine at the Council of Trent in 1563, and Rome’s position on the issue has remained essentially unchanged since then.
But as the current crisis in the church has shown, the controversy just won’t die. When reached for comment, Father Edward Deimeke, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Albany, acknowledged that the institution of celibacy was a “human rule” which could be altered, as opposed to a moral absolute (like the church’s stance on abortion). He also allowed that a majority of the priesthood, as well as the laity in America, favored the right of priests to wed. Perhaps the sentiment of those advocating a change in the church’s policy is best summed up in the words of St. Paul: “It is better to marry than to burn.”

[brother vinny]

VFarris01, I just love how you respond to my questions. :ahem:

[VFarris01]

How so? How do you seek to group us? Cadet's Catholic, and I'm leaning more toward Reformed Theology.You both seem to want to make unsolicited ad hominem remarks.

Your religious "affiliation" is non-sequitur.
And how does any of this relate to where the Bible originates?This thread is not about taking "digs" at 3b or anyone else.

This thread is not about Bible origins.

This thread is about the RCC's priestly problems.

[brother vinny]

You both seem to want to make unsolicited ad hominem remarks.

I asked a question, which you've repeatedly dodged. Show where I've employed ad hominem, and I'll repent of it. But I won't back down from having my question answered.

This thread is not about Bible origins.

In other words, "I can't answer." Thanks.

[Jude3b]

Roman Catholicism commands Celibacy in violation of the Word of God. Celibacy in the Roman Priesthood adds to the problem and encourages sexual sin in the Roman Priesthood.

"Marriage is honourable in all..." (Hebrews 13:4)

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..." (I Tim. 3:2)

"... the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." (Gen. 2:18)

Not only does God express His approval of marriage, He delivers this powerful warning and it applies directly to the apostate church of Roman Catholicism:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (I Tim. 4:1-3).

Not only is CELIBACY not required by God, it IS a DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.

In Roman Catholicism, the celibate religious orders of monks and nuns were an imitation of the vestal virgins of antiquity.

Roman Priesthood is of Pagan Origin, just like many of Romanism's doctrines:

The manner in which the Pantheon at Rome was reconsecrated for the use of the church of Rome shows clearly the heathen origin and nature of many of that religion's principles. This old temple is still standing. It was built by Marcus Agrippa in 27 B.C. and consecrated to all the gods. Pope Boniface IV, about A.D. 610, reconsecrated it to "the blessed Virgin and all the saints." From that time the Romanists prostrated themselves in the very same temple and before the very same images, and devoutly implored them by the same form of prayer and for the very same purposes, as did the heathen of old. Of course, the names of the idols were changed. The same idolatrous worship is still conducted there at the present day.

Roman Catholicism is the beast of Rev. 13:5:

The "great things" and "blasphemies" (Rev. 13:5) spoken by this beast are doubtless the prerogatives and rights belonging to God alone which are claimed by this apostate church called Roman Catholicism, especially through her regularly constituted head. In fact, the pope is the real mouth of this beast, the one who dictates her laws with great authority. He claims to be the vicar of Christ on earth and supreme head of the church, even, as in the case of Pope Innocent, denominating himself the one before whom every knee must bow, of things in heaven, and things on the earth and things under the earth. He claims power over the souls of all men on earth and even after their departure from earth. If this is not blasphemy against God, his tabernacle, or church, and "them that dwell in heaven," then I am wholly unable to imagine what would fulfil the prediction.

Is it any wonder that the Roman Catholic religion has problems with its priesthood?

[spl_cadet]

So, SPL_cadet, you no longer belive the Roman Catholic catechism, which states Celibacy as a doctrine???

Show me where it says that celibacy is a doctrine.

And Jude:

Ignatius of Antioch
"I cried out while I was in your midst, I spoke with a loud voice, the voice of God: ‘Give heed to the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons.’ Some suspect me of saying this because I had previous knowledge of the division certain persons had caused; but he for whom I am in chains is my witness that I had no knowledge of this from any man. It was the Spirit who kept preaching these words, ‘Do nothing without the bishop, keep your body as the temple of God, love unity, flee from divisions, be imitators of Jesus Christ, as he was imitator of the Father’" (Letter to the Philadelphians 7:1–2)

[arcadejunkie]

Is it just me, or do fundies take mind altering drugs?

And Jude, I know this is going to hurt you, but: Celibacy is not a doctrine.
Care to explain? If it's not a doctrine, why are all Catholic Priests Celibate?

[Agent Yoshi]

That J3b chooses to base his beliefs on the Bible instead of traditions of the RCC, many with their origin in paganism, shows his true character; a man in the mold of the Bereans of Acts 17.

1) His "true character" is shown when all he does is engage in Catholic Bashing and constantlhy quoting himself to get the last word in.

2) I don't disagree with you about some of the RCC traditions, but they've carried on into "Normative" Christianity also.

[Agent Yoshi]

You both seem to want to make unsolicited ad hominem remarks.

Your religious "affiliation" is non-sequitur.
This thread is not about taking "digs" at 3b or anyone else.

This thread is not about Bible origins.

This thread is about the RCC's priestly problems.

More specifically, it was about the sexual molestation problems that had been happening within the RCC church, but as any typical hypocrit would do, you guys first ignored the fact that "Normative" Christianity as a whole has the same problems right now, and then proceded to attack their beliefs.

[Agent Yoshi]

Jude3b, why do you keep quoting yourself?

[Agent Yoshi]

And just to clarify:

I'm not defending Catholicism. I'm sick and tired the hypocrisy used against Catholicism - and for the record, I do think many RCC practices come from Paganism. I'm a Karaite Jew, and I reject all tradition being authorative - regardless of whether it's a Christian or Jewish source. That is a claim that 99% of the Judeo-Arab-Christian religions can not honestly say.

[spl_cadet]

Care to explain? If it's not a doctrine, why are all Catholic Priests Celibate?

They aren't. Celibacy is a discipline peculiar to the Roman Church. The Eastern Catholic Churches allow married men to become priests, and even within the Roman Church over a hundred priests are married (by special permission of the pope; Anglican priests who have converted).

[Jude3b]

In Roman Catholicism, the celibate religious orders of monks and nuns were an imitation of the vestal virgins of antiquity.

Roman Priesthood is of Pagan Origin, just like many of Romanism's doctrines:

The manner in which the Pantheon at Rome was reconsecrated for the use of the church of Rome shows clearly the heathen origin and nature of many of that religion's principles. This old temple is still standing. It was built by Marcus Agrippa in 27 B.C. and consecrated to all the gods. Pope Boniface IV, about A.D. 610, reconsecrated it to "the blessed Virgin and all the saints." From that time the Romanists prostrated themselves in the very same temple and before the very same images, and devoutly implored them by the same form of prayer and for the very same purposes, as did the heathen of old. Of course, the names of the idols were changed. The same idolatrous worship is still conducted there at the present day.

Roman Catholicism is the beast of Rev. 13:5:

The "great things" and "blasphemies" (Rev. 13:5) spoken by this beast are doubtless the prerogatives and rights belonging to God alone which are claimed by this apostate church called Roman Catholicism, especially through her regularly constituted head. In fact, the pope is the real mouth of this beast, the one who dictates her laws with great authority. He claims to be the vicar of Christ on earth and supreme head of the church, even, as in the case of Pope Innocent, denominating himself the one before whom every knee must bow, of things in heaven, and things on the earth and things under the earth. He claims power over the souls of all men on earth and even after their departure from earth. If this is not blasphemy against God, his tabernacle, or church, and "them that dwell in heaven," then I am wholly unable to imagine what would fulfil the prediction.

Is it any wonder that the Roman Catholic religion has problems with its priesthood?

Note to SPL_cadet: I've already quoted the 1994 Roman Catholic Catechism, Page 395, # 1579 about the Celibacy issue and the Roman Catholic religious requirements of it upon their priesthood.

How tragic that priests and nuns around the world are foregoing the pleasure of sharing their lives with a spouse, believing that their sacrifice pleases God, when in reality they are falling prey to a powerful demonic scheme.

If only priests and nuns could learn that God makes no such requirement... and that they are being deceived by Satan himself, in a Popes get up. The Catholic doctrine of Celibacy amongst Priests and Nuns, directly opposes God's Word. Dear Roman Catholic preist or nun, please ask yourself who your sacrifice is really pleasing?

God has recorded all these truths about marriage and groups like Romanism tht would forbid marriage, in His Word. If only dear Roman Catholic people could see and understand them.

[spl_cadet]

Note to SPL_cadet: I've already quoted the 1994 Roman Catholic Catechism, Page 395, # 1579 about the Celibacy issue and the Roman Catholic religious requirements of it upon their priesthood.

Are you blind or an egomaniac? I've noted already that it is not a doctrine of the Church, §1579 doesn't call it a doctrine, and that there are thousands of married priests who retain and use their clerical abilities.

Here's page 395 §1780 for your enjoyment:
1580 In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities. Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.

[Jude3b]

Hey Spl_cadet: Are you so ignorant that you don't know that I have been writing about the doctrine of Celibacy in the Roman Catholic Church, the Latin Church referred to in the Roman Catholic Catechism Page 395, #1579? and not the "Easter church!"

The fact remains that the celibacy doctrine in Romanism is a doctrine of demons and originates in the pit of hell!

Not only is celibacy not required by God, the Bible states that those who teach such a doctrine are "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy!"

So, knock your lights out SPL_cadet - keep on preaching those doctrines of devils! Knock your self out!

[spl_cadet]

Hey Spl_cadet: Are you so ignorant that you don't know that I have been writing about the doctrine of Celibacy in the Roman Catholic Church, the Latin Church referred to in the Roman Catholic Catechism Page 395, #1579? and not the "Easter church!"

It's time for another "Lesson for Idiot Fundamentalists"
The Catholic Church is made up of 23 independent churches who all submit to the authority of the pope. Here's a list of them:
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

The Latin Church is not the whole of Catholicism.

[Jude3b]

Spl-cadet: The Latin church is the Roman church. I have been writing and referring to "Romanism" - Mr. Spl_cadet!

Whatever does any of your irrelevant statements about 23 branches of Catholicism have to do with this thread, 'RCC PRIEST PROBLEM STILL A PROBLEM"???

Almost daily I read in the paper about the "Pedophile" priests and the cases that continue to come forth all over the United States. Obviously these Romanist priests have issues and I for one believe that forced celibacy plays a part in that.

Spl_cadet: Argue about stupid stuff if you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that your apostate religion is a fraud and God's people need to get out of it! Amen!

[Jude3b]

Spl-cadet: The Latin church is the Roman church. I have been writing and referring to "Romanism" - Mr. Spl_cadet!

Whatever does any of your irrelevant statements about 23 branches of Catholicism have to do with this thread, 'RCC PRIEST PROBLEM STILL A PROBLEM"???

Almost daily I read in the paper about the "Pedophile" priests and the cases that continue to come forth all over the United States. Obviously these Romanist priests have issues and I for one believe that forced celibacy plays a part in that.

Spl_cadet: Argue about stupid stuff if you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that your apostate religion is a fraud and God's people need to get out of it! Amen!

[spl_cadet]

Spl-cadet: The Latin church is the Roman church. I have been writing and referring to "Romanism" - Mr. Spl_cadet!

The Latin Church is the one that historically used Latin in the Mass and of whom the Pope is Patriarch. There are quite a few other Churches within the Catholic Church which submit to the pope, but are not the Latin Church.


Whatever does any of your irrelevant statements about 23 branches of Catholicism have to do with this thread, 'RCC PRIEST PROBLEM STILL A PROBLEM"???

BECAUSE THESE CHURCHES DO NOT HAVE CELIBACY AS A REQUIREMENT FOR THE PRIESTHOOD EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE A PART OF THE RCC!!!!!!!!!!!


Almost daily I read in the paper about the "Pedophile" priests and the cases that continue to come forth all over the United States. Obviously these Romanist priests have issues and I for one believe that forced celibacy plays a part in that.

Considering that I haven't seen more than one article in the past 3-4 months, I've really got to wonder about your truthfulness here.


Spl_cadet: Argue about stupid stuff if you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that your apostate religion is a fraud and God's people need to get out of it! Amen!


St. Ignatius of Antioch, 50-117 A.D.
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" Letter to the Magnesians 6:1

[VFarris01]

I asked a question, which you've repeatedly dodged.What question?

Here are the questions you have asked:
Ah, but what does he base his Bible on? (I'll give you a hint: it starts with a "T" and has nine letters. . . :teeth:)Non-Sequitur. The Bible is not based on "tradition."
What application for these verses do you see here? :huh:Answered.
How so? How do you seek to group us? Cadet's Catholic, and I'm leaning more toward Reformed Theology.

And how does any of this relate to where the Bible originates?Answered.
Show where I've employed ad hominem, and I'll repent of it. But I won't back down from having my question answered.Here it is.
Is it just me, or do fundies take mind altering drugs?It's just you taking the mind-altering drugs. :wink: Fundies are that way naturally.Start "repenting."
In other words, "I can't answer." Thanks.Non-Sequitur, see above.

Now, stick to the subject.

[Jude3b]

Spl-cadet: The Latin church is the Roman church. I have been writing and referring to "Romanism" - Mr. Spl_cadet!

Whatever does any of your irrelevant statements about 23 branches of Catholicism have to do with this thread, 'RCC PRIEST PROBLEM STILL A PROBLEM"???

Almost daily I read in the paper about the "Pedophile" priests and the cases that continue to come forth all over the United States. Obviously these Romanist priests have issues and I for one believe that forced celibacy plays a part in that.

Spl_cadet: Argue about stupid stuff if you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that your apostate religion is a fraud and God's people need to get out of it! Amen!

Final Authority rests on the Word of God, not some Roman Catholic (so-called Saints)!

[Benedict]

Final authority rests with God. Authority upon the earth in matters of faith lies with the Church.

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 18:17-18.

[VFarris01]

Final authority rests with God. Authority upon the earth in matters of faith lies with the Church.

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 18:17-18.
Nice try Benedict.

Final authority does indeed rests with God.

However, let us look at the context and not just a couple of verses shall we?

(15) "If your brother sins against you, go and confront him while the two of you are alone. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. (16) But if he doesn't listen, take one or two others with you so that 'every word may be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

(17) If, however, he ignores them, tell it to the congregation. If he also ignores the congregation, regard him as a gentile and a tax collector. (18) "Truly I tell you, whatever you prohibit on earth will have been prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will have been permitted in heaven.

(19) Furthermore, truly I tell you that if two of you agree on earth about anything you request, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. (20) For where two or three have come together in my name, I am there among them."

(21) Then Peter came up and asked him, "Lord, how many times may my brother sin against me and I have to forgive him? Seven times?" (22) Jesus said to him, "I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!

(23) "That is why the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

(24) When he had begun to settle the accounts, a person who owed him 10,000 talents was brought to him. (25) Because he couldn't pay, his master ordered him, his wife, his children, and all that he had to be sold so that payment could be made. (26) Then the servant fell down and bowed low before him, saying, 'Be patient with me, and I will repay you everything!' (27) The master of that servant had compassion and released him, canceling his debt. (28) "But when that servant went away, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him, seized him by the throat, and said, 'Pay what you owe!' (29) Then his fellow servant fell down and began begging him, 'Be patient with me and I will repay you!' (30) But he refused and went and had him thrown into prison until he could repay the debt. (31) "When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were very disturbed and went and reported to their master all that had occurred. (32) Then his master sent for him and said to him, 'You evil servant! I canceled that entire debt for you because you begged me. (33) Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?' (34) In anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he could repay the entire debt. (35) This is how my heavenly Father will treat each one of you unless you forgive your brother from your hearts."

This has more to do with "civil disagreements" than with "matters of faith" does it not?

1 Timothy 3:15.

[Jude3b]

Final authority rests with God. Authority upon the earth in matters of faith lies with the Church.

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 18:17-18.

Thank you for sharing that Benedict. This verse talks about "the church" and the only church you find in the Holy Word of God - is God's church, the church of God - the body of Christ.

There is no Roman Catholic church found in the Word of God, except in Prophecy in the books of Thessalonians and The Revelation, speaking about the Apostasy that was to come.

[George Blaisdell]

(15) "If your brother sins against you...
(and steadfastly refuses to repent),
regard him as a gentile and a tax collector.

(21) Then Peter came up and asked him,
"Lord, how many times may my brother sin against me
and I have to forgive him? Seven times?"
(22) Jesus said to him, "I tell you, not just seven times,
but seventy-seven times!

..(35) This is how my heavenly Father will treat each
one of you unless you forgive your brother from your hearts."



[size=2]This has more to do with "civil disagreements" than with "matters of faith" does it not?

1 Timothy 3:15.


The passage begins with: "If your brother sins against you..."

Doesn't it thereby have instead to do with sin and forgiveness? And the slowness we are enjoined to follow in the issue of judging our brothers in Christ, and the authority we have in doing so in Christ's Church, and the utter imperative we have of granting forgiveness to ALL who seek it for their sins?

It is so easy for us to point our fingers at others in condemnation of what we see as their sins, and then in the same breath to thank God for the fact that we are not like them, but are instead ourselves saved... And in doing this, do we not join ranks with the Pharisee instead of the Publican?

It is so important to be kind to one another... To acknowledge our own sins, and not to point fingers at our brothers... And especially so with regard to harsh words of judgement and sarchasm and belittlement...

You began your post with "Nice try... However, let us look at... not just a couple of verses shall we?"

When Christ enjoins us to love those who persecute us, we are to be lambs before lions, are we not? Your words feel harsh and unforgiving - Indeed, reading this thread [not your post, mind you, which is very mild] is like listening in on five year olds in a demonic sand box spitting forth their hatred of each other back and forth, back and forth, each trying to escalate the level of spitting until the other tucks tail and runs... Both falsely 'safe' behind their computer screens...

That is just not the Christian way to treat one another... We can disagree without spitting and then throwing sand and then toys and then what?

Tough love is not unloving...

I guess I am just not seeing much loving-kindness here in this thread...

geo-Arsenios

[Agent Yoshi]

Final Authority rests on the Word of God, not some Roman Catholic (so-called Saints)!

Nor does it rest upon some so called Christian, no offense intended to the non-hypocritical Christians viewing this thread.

[Jude3b]

Final Authority rests on the Word of God, not some Roman Catholic (so-called Saints)!

Question for readers: Where does your final authority rest?

Are you trusting fully in God and what He has revealed in His Word as your final authority?

Or do you trust opinions of men and traditions of men?

Eternity is to important to play around with. Read the Bible and find out the truth. May God richly bless you and guide you. Amen

[Agent Yoshi]

Stop quoting yourself. It's stupid.

[Jude3b]

Question for readers: Where does your final authority rest?

Are you trusting fully in God and what He has revealed in His Word as your final authority?

Or do you trust opinions of men and traditions of men?

Eternity is to important to play around with. Read the Bible and find out the truth. May God richly bless you and guide you. Amen

If you're unloved and unwanted, if your religion has rejected you or let you down, please remember Jesus loves you and made a way for you to be with him forever. This is your time to become a Winner. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:31) Amen!

[arcadejunkie]

yoshiah_ap (sitting next to me) asked me to tell you to stop quoting yourself.

[George Blaisdell]

[to Jude]
...Stop quoting yourself.


That is the only and ultimate and final and unavoidable fly in the ointment of "Believe God's Word [the Bible] or believe [in the traditions of] men." Setting aside for the moment that this is a false dichotomy, that Christ was a man, that His words and teachings were given to men, and it was men who wrote the Bible, and that it is men who are fallen, and it is men who need redemption, setting all this aside, [and much more], IF you grant Jude his premise, that it is God OR men that he alone listens to, and that he chooses God alone, and NOT men, then WHO, my irritated friend, CAN HE QUOTE???

He can quote the Bible, and nobody listens, because we all have our own, and don't need him to pound on us with it, yes? We know how to read our own Bible, yes? I read it my way and you read it your way, and everyone reads it their own particular way, right? So quoting the Bible doesn't work.

And he can't quote anyone else's thoughts, because that would make him a follower of men, and not of God alone... So he HAS to quote himself, and that leaves only ONE fly in his jar of ointment, and the name of that fly is: SELF... So you can see that he is much closer to God than you and I are, for we have thousands of flies in OUR ointment jars, and he only has one, so we should not be so quick to judge our brother Jude... I would trade him all my flies for his one fly any day, and be much the richer for it... For I have his fly in my ointment jar too...

If we reject the men that the Father gave to Christ to leave in the world to disciple the nations [the apostles, and the apostolic Churches that they esablished upon this earth, whose members are themselves human, after all] in favor of our own interpretations of the words written on paper that these men produced, having been discipled themselves either by Christ, or by the apostles [Matthew, for instance, was a disciple of Peter] whom Christ discipled, then we are left STILL at the mercy of men, and ultimately, of only ONE man, and that one, our SELF...

And it is written the words of our Lord in Scripture:

"If anyone is willing to be a follower of me, let him DENY himSELF, take up his own cross, and follow me."

It's a big fly...

It has to come out of the ointment...

It can only do so in Christ's Apostolic Church...

That's why Christ taught as He did...

The voluntary taking up of one's own cross...

The Church removes the fly in baptism...

Christ is the Head of the Church...

He will help you with that fly...

But you have to be willing...

To be discipled...

By men...

"Go forth, discipling all the ethnics, teaching them all the things that I have commanded you, to do them, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

These are men going forth discipling the ethnics like you and me...

That is Christianity...

geo-Arsenios

[elysian]

Please see 1 Corinthians 12:12-31

The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. (NIV)

One of the major pitfalls of Protestantism in general (and I say this as a Protestant) is the lack of the sense of the "universal church." Not all Christians are going to agree on doctrine or traditions (either doxy or praxy) but in spite of our disagreements we are all part of the Body of Christ.

We need each other. Christianity is not lived in a vacuum but in community with other believers and in the world at large. Some individual churches have become so isolated and independent and have amputated themselves from the rest of the Body so that you can imagine the "Church of the Big Mouth" or the "Church of the Giant Hand." The reality is we need all sorts of people with different talents and gifts, and (gasp!) even different points of view!

Individual believers, too have this problem. I know because I lived it. For several years after my first marriage failed I fell away from the church (partially because I went to the same church as my ex, and partially because I moved away) and became more and more cynical and bitter and I questioned if God had abandoned me. God didn't abandon me, I abandoned Him. It took the Holy Spirit bringing me to the realization that I needed to become a part of a church again, to be part of the Body, to not only find healing and salvation in Him, but also to be able to grow in faith and grace.

Tradition is not a master, but a servant. Tradition serves Scripture, and helps to keep us on the straight and narrow path rather than the lunatic fringe. When we read Scripture we need to take its entire counsel, not just bits and pieces out of context. Our Center and Focus should always be upon Christ as we interpret Scripture through the lens of the Cross. We need the counsel and support of other Christians- the rest of the Body- as we do so.

[themuzicman]

Now all you have to do is prove that the apostolic church is an entity of human design, rather than the body of believers around the world, regardless of what the name on the door of their local church says.

Michael

[elysian]

Now all you have to do is prove that the apostolic church is an entity of human design, rather than the body of believers around the world, regardless of what the name on the door of their local church says.

Michael

I do believe that the Body of Christ consists of all Christian believers, and while it's an interesting concept, I don't think apostolic succession is essential to salvation or to faith. The RCC claims apostolic succession as well as Orthodox, and some Missouri Synod Lutherans will claim Lutherans do too by default (as the Reformation was intended to correct wrongdoing in the RCC.) I say all Christians are part of the Body of Christ and of the same inheritance.

[themuzicman]

I also believe that apostolic succession goes to the person(s) that a local body chooses to lead them.

Michael

[Jude3b]

If you're unloved and unwanted, if your religion has rejected you or let you down, please remember Jesus loves you and made a way for you to be with him forever. This is your time to become a Winner. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:31) Amen!

If you were ever physically abused or molested by a member of the clergy, you know doubt feel bitter and mayby hold unforgiveness towards them. Give it to God, let Him love you. He truly understands your pain and will receive you as one of His children. Turn your heart to Jesus, He's waiting. Amen.

[George Blaisdell]

If you were ever physically abused or molested by a member of the clergy, you know doubt feel bitter and mayby hold unforgiveness towards them. Give it to God, let Him love you. He truly understands your pain and will receive you as one of His children. Turn your heart to Jesus, He's waiting. Amen.


That night, the two men were half dragged and half shoved from the cold barracks in their light clothing out to the 'box' - A steel enclosure that is so short it does not allow the prisoner enough room to stand up and run in place to keep warm. It was 26 degrees below zero Fahrenheit, and getting colder, and the men's frozen and lifeless bodies would be picked up in 48 hours onto a sled drawn by a horse and dragged off to be buried in the spring.

As the frozen steel door closed behind them, the one man cried out in fear as he began to shake uncontrollably in the already beginning first stages of hypothermia, bitterly denouncing the informants who had betrayed them, knowing these were his last hours.

The other man bowed his head in prayer, and began the ancient prayers of the Church: "Let us give thanks unto the Lord..." And the first man responded "Lord have Mercy..." And the Priest then continued "In peace let us pray to the Lord..." And the first responded: "Lord have mercy..."

The prayers of service continued for 2 days, and when the astonished guards came with the horse-drawn cart to collect the bodies, the men walked back to the barracks after having served their 48 hour punishment that should have been their death sentence...

Many stories come out of the gulag...

Bitterness and betrayal are hard to overcome...

Millions died under this persecution...

Food and cold were weapons of State...

Finger pointing was no help...

[geo] Arsenios

[spl_cadet]

I also believe that apostolic succession goes to the person(s) that a local body chooses to lead them.

Michael

The Biblical example that you are following being what exactly?

[Jude3b]

If you were ever physically abused or molested by a member of the clergy, you know doubt feel bitter and mayby hold unforgiveness towards them. Give it to God, let Him love you. He truly understands your pain and will receive you as one of His children. Turn your heart to Jesus, He's waiting. Amen.

When you fall in Love with the Lord, by letting His love fill you and when you read and study His Word, you will find that your faith will build and build and you will be able to forgive that Roman Catholic priest that abused you. Pray for him, as he needs the same Savior that you and I need. Amen

[Agent Yoshi]

Stop quoting yourself.

[Jude3b]

When you fall in Love with the Lord, by letting His love fill you and when you read and study His Word, you will find that your faith will build and build and you will be able to forgive that Roman Catholic priest that abused you. Pray for him, as he needs the same Savior that you and I need. Amen

Also, don't forget that the flesh is weak. That is why Jesus says, "Watch and Pray!"

[dizzle]

Jude stop quoting yourself. It is disruptive. Conversations are between two or more people, not oneself

[Jude3b]

I do believe that the Body of Christ consists of all Christian believers, and while it's an interesting concept, I don't think apostolic succession is essential to salvation or to faith. The RCC claims apostolic succession as well as Orthodox, and some Missouri Synod Lutherans will claim Lutherans do too by default (as the Reformation was intended to correct wrongdoing in the RCC.) I say all Christians are part of the Body of Christ and of the same inheritance.

I agree. If someone is saved, they are part of the Body of Christ - the church of God that we read about in the New Testament. When we were saved - Christ placed us into His body - the church of God (Acts. 2:47).

It is a shame that certain groups like the Roman Catholics, because of their teaching that Peter is the rock, have the false doctrine of apostolic succession. The Word of God does not teach that Peter is the Rock. It shows us that Christ is the Rock. Amen.

Roman Catholicism and other groups - Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc. teach that they are the "One true Church" - which of course they are not. The Bible clearly teaches us that the one true church is the body of Christ.

These are reasons why we need to proclaim truth to those trapped by the groups that teach doctrines and traditions that are contrary to the Word of God.

[Agent Yoshi]

I've never heard that they teach he is the Rock. In what context do they teach it? I'm curious, because - IIRC - in the Aramaic copies of your scriptures, Peter's name is Kiffa - which means Rock.

[Jezz]

I've never heard that they teach he is the Rock. In what context do they teach it?
3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Here is an oblique self-reference in one of Jesus' parables:

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Additionally, there are many references to the God in the Tanakh that refer to Him as the Rock, and they often pair this with a note that God is salvation, eg:

He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
Verses such as these are often considered to apply to Jesus, because Jesus was God's salvation (as you are probably aware, His name actually means "God is salvation").

I'm curious, because - IIRC - in the Aramaic copies of your scriptures, Peter's name is Kiffa - which means Rock.
In the Greek copies of the scriptures, Peter's name is also given as Kephas (John 1:42).

[Jude3b]

Roman Catholicism contends that Peter is the rock.

When Jesus asked his disciples who He was, Peter responded: "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16).

Then Jesus answered Peter:
"...thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18).

Roman Catholicism contends that the Lord was referring to Peter as the rock, and has since built the entire Roman Catholic religion upon that premise.

All other pertinent Scriptures declare that Jesus was referring to Himself as the rock, not Peter: Example, "...for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (I Cor. 10:4)

[Agent Yoshi]

Jezz... I'm reffering to teaching that peter is the rock.

3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Here is an oblique self-reference in one of Jesus' parables:

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Additionally, there are many references to the God in the Tanakh that refer to Him as the Rock, and they often pair this with a note that God is salvation, eg:

He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
Verses such as these are often considered to apply to Jesus, because Jesus was God's salvation (as you are probably aware, His name actually means "God is salvation").


In the Greek copies of the scriptures, Peter's name is also given as Kephas (John 1:42).

[Jezz]

Jezz... I'm reffering to teaching that peter is the rock.
:doh: Sorry, my bad. In Jude3b's post, to which you were replying, he referred to both Peter and Jesus as being called the Rock... it wasn't clear to me from your post which of these you were referring to. I read it one way, apparently you meant it the other...

Please disregard my post then... :smile: (although of course, my comment that Peter is called Kephas sometimes in the Greek scriptures might still be useful - it's not just in Aramaic scriptures that he is called that).

[Jude3b]

Roman Catholicism does teach that Peter is the Rock. However, most of the Bible points to the fact that Christ and God is the Rock. I'll believe the Bible!

[Agent Yoshi]

I don't know in what context they teach it, but in Aramaic, Peter = Kefa, which means "Rock".

[Jude3b]

I don't know in what context they teach it, but in Aramaic, Peter = Kefa, which means "Rock".

And what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

[Agent Yoshi]

Can you add 1+1?

You said : "Roman Catholicism does teach that Peter is the Rock."

I said : "in Aramaic, Peter = Kefa, which means "Rock""

Let's see here: Peter = Kefa, Kefa = Rock, thus Peter = Rock.

As I said before, I don't know what context the RCC teaches it in.

[Jude3b]

Can you add 1+1?

You said : "Roman Catholicism does teach that Peter is the Rock."

I said : "in Aramaic, Peter = Kefa, which means "Rock""

Let's see here: Peter = Kefa, Kefa = Rock, thus Peter = Rock.

As I said before, I don't know what context the RCC teaches it in.

So what? One does not take one verse out of context, twist it around and build a doctrine about it. What does it matter (assuming that it is true) that Aramaic translates the name Peter as Rock?

God is our Rock. Jesus Christ is the rock of our salvation. Numerous verses of Scripture - New and Old Testament point to that fact. Peter gave a good testimony - based on the revelation knowledge that "Jesus was the Christ" and Jesus points out that on that rock - the rock of that testimony - that He would build His church. The verse has nothing whatsoever to do with the Roman Catholic Religion.

[Agent Yoshi]

Alright, tell me, O Enlightened One, in what way do they teach it?

And if you don't trust me on the translation, go look up some of your "Messianic" sites.

[Jezz]

What does it matter (assuming that it is true) that Aramaic translates the name Peter as Rock?
Jude, I've noticed that your posts are pretty much devoid of substance, but this comment takes the cake. You stooped to basically insinuating that Karaite was incorrect in his statement about the Aramaic translation. He is 100% correct - "Kepha" is Aramaic for rock. And, btw, "Petros" (the Greek from which we get Peter) also means rock.

God is our Rock. Jesus Christ is the rock of our salvation. Numerous verses of Scripture - New and Old Testament point to that fact. Peter gave a good testimony - based on the revelation knowledge that "Jesus was the Christ" and Jesus points out that on that rock - the rock of that testimony - that He would build His church. The verse has nothing whatsoever to do with the Roman Catholic Religion.
God/Jesus being the Rock of our salvation does not mean that there are no other rocks in the universe. Simon Peter was a rock.

I agree with you that the "rock" on which Jesus was building His church was not Simon Peter, but rather his confession. But that doesn't mean that Peter was not a rock. He was the one that Jesus chose to lead the apostles - that Jesus Himself thought him worthy of that honour means that you should not spit at him like you do.

[Jude3b]

Jude, I've noticed that your posts are pretty much devoid of substance, but this comment takes the cake. You stooped to basically insinuating that Karaite was incorrect in his statement about the Aramaic translation. He is 100% correct - "Kepha" is Aramaic for rock. And, btw, "Petros" (the Greek from which we get Peter) also means rock.


God/Jesus being the Rock of our salvation does not mean that there are no other rocks in the universe. Simon Peter was a rock.

I agree with you that the "rock" on which Jesus was building His church was not Simon Peter, but rather his confession. But that doesn't mean that Peter was not a rock. He was the one that Jesus chose to lead the apostles - that Jesus Himself thought him worthy of that honour means that you should not spit at him like you do.

First of all, I do not spit on the Apostle Peter. He obviously is a great brother in the Lord and I love him.

Secondly, what verses from the Holy Bible are you referring to that show that Jesus selected Peter to lead the Apostles?

Third, I do agree that Peter is a stone, a smaller rock than Christ. Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone that the church of God - the body of Christ is built upon. All the Apostles are rocks in the church of God, excepting Judas of course.

[Agent Yoshi]

Third, I do agree that Peter is a stone, a smaller rock than Christ. Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone that the church of God - the body of Christ is built upon. All the Apostles are rocks in the church of God, excepting Judas of course.

And thus he contradicts the wierd claims he made earlier...

[Jude3b]

And thus he contradicts the wierd claims he made earlier...

Ok, what wierd claim have I contradicted Karaite?

[Agent Yoshi]

You have been attacking the RCC for teaching that Peter is a rock, and you just admitted he was one.

[Jude3b]

You have been attacking the RCC for teaching that Peter is a rock, and you just admitted he was one.

IS THAT WHAT I SAID? DON'T THINK SO!

You misquote me or you misunderstand me.

Either way, it doesn't matter. This discussion, relative to the meaning of "rock" in Matt. 16:18 - is referring to the the revelation of who Christ is, mentioned in Matt. 16:17. The Roman Catholic religion says that it means Peter himself. Some state it means Christ himself.

We know that through divine revelation the church of God - the body of Christ, was established; that the apostles (including Peter) were foundation stones in that church. The Word of God also calls them lively stones. Christ himself is declared to be the "chief corner-stone."

The Word of God shows that Peter was not special in the sense of who or what is "the Rock" that the church of God - the body of Christ is built upon. For it was "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone" (Eph. 2:20).

In John's apocalyptic vision the foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem (the church of God - the body of Christ) contained "the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev. 21:14).

Christ said, "I will build my church" - Christ did build a church - the body of Christ, the church of God. Every born-again Christian is a member of it. Praise the Lord!