ARTICLE: Christian Police Officer Speaks Out. . .

[Jade]

Christian Police Officer Speaks Out on Corporal Punishment (http://www.albatrus.org/english/living/discipline/christian_police_officer_speaks_%20out_on_corporal_punishment.htm)
By Det. Robert R. Surgenor Berea, Ohio Police Department (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1577361598/qid%3D954944474/sr%3D1-1/103-1269759-8766208)
________________________________________

I am a Christian police officer in charge of our city’s Juvenile Crime Unit. For years, I have compiled statistics that indicate when parents eliminate corporal punishment from their discipline plan, the child grows up with an attitude of "no fear."

Even when the parent is diligent in other areas of discipline, such as taking away privileges and grounding, when that one element of discipline, spanking, is taken away, the parent usually experiences defiance problems throughout the teen years.

Since 1982 in my city, the incidents of Domestic Violence cases where children physically assault their parents has increased 700%. The national statistics show an overall increase of almost 400%. I am responsible for compiling all information on those offences.

I conduct interviews with the parents and child, along with school officials and employers of the child. What I find startling, is that of all those kids arrested in my city for hitting their parents, only 1.9% received any type of corporal punishment as they were being raised. Less than 2% of these aggressive, angry children were spanked! The non-spanking "experts" contend that spanking a child makes them angry and aggressive. The exact opposite is true!

The non-spanking crowd are a close-knit group who are attempting to convince the public to stop spanking their children. Their attitude is one of arrogance. Their movement is humanistic. Their religion is atheistic.

There are prophesies that refer to children and the mindset of the younger generation in the last days. 2nd Timothy 3:1 states "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents......" Along with all of the other changes in attitude, is the predicted change in the attitude of children toward their parents.

I believe that the anti-spanking movement has, and will continue to have, a hand in the fulfillment of Biblical prophesy. Unbeknownst to the non-spanking advocate, they are helping to cause children to be "disobedient to parents," something that was predicted in 2nd Timothy in the year 66 AD. I believe that the elimination of corporal punishment is the major factor in the attitude of "no fear" that we are now experiencing in our youth.

Think about it. When you got grounded as a child, it was a real inconvenience, but you weren’t afraid of it. When you had the TV taken away it was real boring, but you weren’t afraid of it. What made you move fast was hearing the leather coming out of dad’s belt loops! That’s what really made you respect your dad’s authority!

I believe as Christians, we have a responsibility to educate parents as to their responsibility and authority. I have recently written a book called "No Fear," and hope to have it published in the near future. We are being inundated by numerous sources telling us we can’t spank our kids. Psychologists, the Department of Children’s Services and Public School Counsellors are telling us we cannot discipline our children. Enough is enough! The law protects a parent who wishes to spank their child, most parents just don’t know it! A parent must know the LIMIT of his or her power to avoid exceeding it, and the EXTENT of the power to exercise it fully. Once a parent knows to what extent they can go to control their child, they can move forward without fear of arrest or interference from the authorities. And once the child realizes that the parent is in total control, the will is broken, and compliance results.

The dedicated Christian, like those in Acts 17:11 "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so," will see that God’s Word plainly advocates spanking in child rearing. In order for the Christian to effectively use the Bible as a reference to advocate corporal punishment, he must know exactly what the Bible says about spanking. That is why I believe your message is so important. I encourage you to keep up the good work.

Your message on the Internet was of great encouragement to me. May God bless you in your efforts. In His Name.

_____________________________________________

Det. Robert R. Surgenor Berea, Ohio Police Department

Note: Detective Surgenor retired from his police department in 2002.

[Jade]

I would like to say for the record that I disagree with Det. Robert R. Surgenor Berea on this:

The non-spanking crowd are a close-knit group who are attempting to convince the public to stop spanking their children. Their attitude is one of arrogance. Their movement is humanistic. Their religion is atheistic.

This is too inclusive, I know many parents who do not spank that are Christians.

This said, what is your thoughts on this article. Do you agree? Do you disagree?

[nfactor13131313]

To really establish a correlation between two variables (in this case, spanking and violence), you not only have to look at the ratio in the violent population (which is what this officer is exposed to), but also the ratio in the non-violent population. That is, you would have to know how many non-violent kids are also not spanked vs. being spanked.

If the officer could provide that kind of information, it would at least be a more convincing case than what he's giving in this brief article.

Secondly, it may be a case of correlation, not causation in that lack of spanking may be an indicator of a general lack of concern at all, not a committed approach to child-rearing that eschews spanking specifically. A concerned involved parent who doesn't spank might be much more effective than a lazy one who uses spanking as a panacea for any behaviour that happens to annoy the parent.

[lordsnooty]

Shame he retired. I would have liked to have seen him reprimanded for writing such bigoted rubbish.

Paul

[Socrates]

Sounds like a top bloke who wasn't afraid to speak the truth against the Bible-hating politically correct loonies.

[lordsnooty]

Sounds like a hate-filled, ranting Christian bigot to me.

Paul

[dizzle]

Paul your comment was uncalled for and unsubstantiated and was almost an example of what you were accusing the author of the article of.

[dizzle]

Socrates I would disagree that those who are opposed to spanking are by necessity "Bible-haters." I have Christian friends who sincerely love the Lord who (I beleive mistakenly) are opposed to spanking. There are other motivations. I also disagree with the author that this has a whit to do with prophecy but he is of course entitled to his opinion.

[lordsnooty]

I call foul on over-moderation on this one. I've not had cause to complain before, but I think this was a little OTT.

Why can't I can't use the word 'bigot' to describe a man that refers to 'arrogant atheists' hindering his child-slapping crusade?

Paul

PS: I am not necessarily anti-spanking. I think it is necessary in some circumstances.

But in almost all cases, child disobedience and anti-social behaviour occurs due to poor parenting skills. Smacking is almost never required if Children are raised properly.

[dizzle]

Your second comment in itself was more than simply that and could itself be labeled a bigotted comment. It had nothing in it for futherance of legitimate discussion in this generally nonconfrontational area of the forum. If you had stuck to the one comment, it would have been left alone but you continued and added even more unwarranted descriptives in a fashion intended more to inflame rather than inform.. however...

Please respect any comments/warnings by the Moderators. Any grievances with their action should be addressed to the Forum Administrators in Private Message, Email or in the Dean’s Office.

Thank you. I have had no issue with you before and have no real one with you now. I believe in my judgment you stepped over the line considering the forum, the post, and the context. I hope you can respect that.

The remainder of your last post brought up issues in furtherance of good discussion and I thank you for those. Please carry on.

[Socrates]

Dee Dee Warren wrote:
Socrates I would disagree that those who are opposed to spanking are by necessity "Bible-haters."True enough. I as thinking of the leaders in the anti-smacking crusade who all seem to be humanists, and that's why I was happy to see this policeman say what he said. I have Christian friends who sincerely love the Lord who (I beleive mistakenly) are opposed to spanking. There are other motivations. True. One is connection of spanking with outright child abuse, but there is a difference between a practice and its abuse, e.g. spanking v. bashing, drinking a little wine and drunkenness, eating v. gluttony. I also disagree with the author that this has a whit to do with prophecy but he is of course entitled to his opinion.You have a point there.

[Joe Corleone]

Gah! That is funny..ha ha ha---ah-hah! Hnnnnnnnnn! Sigh....I go out of town for a few weeks and the place goes to the dogs. Well no, Mr. Officer sir, ma'm or whatever...I for one am not the least bit interested in convincing the American public to stop spanking and beating and slapping their misbehaving possibly demon possessed children around. Knock'em silly if you wanna. Beat'em til they drop. Shake'em as well while you are at it. But as for me, I'm still not going to use violence against my children or my grandchildren no matter what some of the so-called Christian family value promoters and pseudo-sociologists claim.

BTW, what translation did the Bible verse with my name stuck in it come from? The name Joe Corleone isn't in any of my Bibles. The name is in green yet. What does that signify? Ah well. What does it matter anyway?

Let's take a closer look at what the illustrious aforementioned retired police officer has said in his highly emotional and sentimental diatribe about child beating. " I have compiled statistics that indicate when parents eliminate corporal punishment from their discipline plan, the child grows up with an attidude of 'no fear.' Well, praise the Lord for that! A child grows up with a no fear attitude. Glory be! Caffiene free! Hallelueh! Amen! That accomplismment alone is worth not beating your children. And what credentials does this policeman have that legitimizes his myriad of statistical compilation skills? Is he a qualified statistician? Does he have a degree in the field? Or is he just giving us his narrow opinion?

I suspect that the increase in incidents of children assaulting their parents can be more accurately traced to chronic family stress situations brought on by unbearable economic and social conditions which are a direct result of poverty, poor healthcare which includes mental health, lack of educational opportunities, and the absence of meaningful political and spiritual leadership within their communities. Poor kids who live in inner city low income housing situations probably get more than their fair share of beatings and spankings with a few kickings and slappings thrown in as well. Some of these unlucky kids get shot and knifed too. That oughta teach'em to behave and not talk back I guess. Some of these finger-pointing family value rhetoric-spouting orgs. seem to think it's the poor's fault they are in the shape they are in. The old it's unrepentant attitudes and all out sin that makes'em poor attitude. (continued)

[Joe Corleone]

Actually, when I heard the sound of leather belts or razor straps or switches coming out of someone's belt loops or rattling down the hallway, it made my brain start to turn numb and shut down. Block it all out with my self-constructed defense mechanism. After the first three or four licks, I didn't feel a thing. You could have beaten me for twenty minutes and I wouldn't have felt it. I was somewhere else. It made me distrust those who were doing the beating/spanking and afterwards I would never confide in them about anything. A kid, at least not this kid, has/had no desire to try and communicate with someone who just used violence against him as punishment. Especially when he or she is spanked or beaten in front of his siblings or other kids in the neighborhood.

Adding shame and humiliation to the equation doesn't help either. It's like some fundamentalists preachers who incessantly dwell on the horrors of punishment in hell as a way to convert people to Christianity while at the same time omitting any mention of Jesus Christ and the love and compassion which He lived and taught. Being firm as a parent is fine, but mindlessly spanking and beating children at the drop of a hat because you think it is Biblically sound is silly and simple-minded.

Endtime prophesies. Yeah, that's what we need, more prophesies about how the world is just about to go to hell in a handbasket at any minute. That ain't Biblical either. All these people running around like Chicken Little telling everybody how they had a vision concerning the end of time and the Apocalypse. Death wish on a worldwide scale. Jesus Himself warned his own disciples about speculating on how and when the world would end. Instead, He did re-emphasize the importance of taking care of the important business at hand like caring for the poor, the sick, the demon-possessed and mentally ill, the widows, and those who had not heard the gospel message. He also took children upon his lap and made some statement about how if anyone harmed one of these it would be better if a millstone were hung about his neck and he were thrown into the depths of the sea. Right on, Jesus! Imagine if instead he had told his disciples to round up all those noisy kids and give'em all a good old fashioned switching and beating so they'd be sure and turn out OK later on. He was not a child beater either. Good for Him! I like the way He thinks and does things. Lot better fella than those clowns in the Christian Coalition.

[Alden]

A suprisingly content-free post.

[Sher]

Yesterday @ 02:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79492#post79492)
Joe Corleone:

BTW, what translation did the Bible verse with my name stuck in it come from? The name Joe Corleone isn't in any of my Bibles. The name is in green yet. What does that signify? Ah well. What does it matter anyway?

:lol: I think he is talking about Jade's sig line ... :rofl:

[Gospel Minister]

OBEY MAN OR GOD

From time to time I see postings from people who believe spanking is an effective form of discipline, but fear the legal consequences of using corporal based punishment in their home. I would like to share some of my personal opinions and beliefs regarding this, for your prayerful consideration:

The most important consideration must be God's point of view, as revealed in the scriptures. The verses pertaining to the rod of correction are actually COMMANDS of God, to parents of unruly children. He makes this abundantly clear in the 12th chapter of the book of Hebrews, which charges parents who do not chastise their children with treating their offspring as if they were bastards!

Even without the biblical endorsement, spanking has a very established background in the history and tradition of the family unit. Even many of our young adults of our day, can remember grandmother or grandfather using some form of "the rod of correction" upon their buttocks. (even if their parents did not)

Schoolteachers, guardians, and even neighbors, thought nothing of paddling a rude or naughty child in times past. While this non-parental spanking policy may be subject to many different opinions in our day and time, it was a common sight in our recent past. My concerns are for the present, but I felt obligated to stir up the memories of some who seem to have forgotten these things.

In our day and time, spanking children has become a taboo subject in many ways. I believe there is still a pro-spanking majority, but they are a silent majority! The family welfare people, the courts, and the humanist-inspired government agencies, mock the values of the traditional family unit. God has been kicked out of society in general, and the man of the house as been reduced to the office of "mouse" of the house.

Parents have reared their children in a home without meaningful discipline, and these kids KNOW their rights. (as taught to them in school, and by the media) The parents of these children fear their own offspring, and the kids "do their own thing" and dare anyone to even attempt stop them. I get phone calls and e-mail from parents who are unable to control their youth, and they really have no idea they are usually the ones at fault for the situation they have created at home.

This is what I would do, you make your own decision:

1. A good parent should be willing to die to protect their own family, so it should be no big thing if they have to spend time in jail for doing what is RIGHT before God. Would you not bath your kids, if the family services people said it was too dangerous? Would you not feed them, if a law was enacted which forbid them from eating at home?

Of course not, you would say such laws were foolish and none of the governments business. Guess what? Any law which forbids you to discipline your children is foolish, illegal, and anti-God to the core. Situation ethics won't cut it, when you face God and tell Him why you allowed little Johnny to smoke pot without paying the price for his actions. When you visit your child in the jail, the hospital, or the grave, you will WISH you had been man or woman enough to discipline them in their youth.

Chasten your child while there is still hope, and don't cave in to the unconstitutional mandates of people who know nothing of the true law of our land, or our Creator. Woe to the wicked church organizations and ministers who value the policies of the welfare people, above the word of God.

Many attorneys and law enforcement officials know the truth, but they have followed the sheep to the slaughter too. Their legal advice may be timely, but it is based on corrupted truth, which is nothing but perversion wrapped up to hide its evil source. Lawyers who deal outside of constitutional law, are no better than preachers who use humanist dogma instead of scripture to teach and preach from.

Do RIGHT, no matter the cost. If you go to jail, use the time to make plans to defeat the evil system which was used to usurp your parental rights. If you lose your kids for a while, remember you have not really lost them at all. If you did your job right, your children will know it NO MATTER what they are told by others. In time they will return to you, and you will have their love and respect for sticking to your guns. Best of all, God will KNOW what you have done.

We have all allowed this mess to occur, so don't think I am pointing fingers only at you. I am also guilty, as for years I allowed public opinion and the flawed logic of infidels to govern my thought process in many ways. Don't waste your life, and the life of your children, by holding back when they deserve the discipline God ORDAINED you to minister to them. You cannot truly LOVE your children, if you withhold the essentials a child needs to succeed. No one should abuse a child, but to neglect their discipline needs will insure their destruction...

p.s. I authored this a few years ago, and it has been published on the internet by others with pro/con views concerning the subject.

[Ruth]

I'm glad this idiot isn't on the force anymore. Scary to think what he did with people in his custody.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
Socrates (469-399 B.C.E.)