Can a fat Christian be considered a credible witness?

[Lazy Agnostic]

Our illustrious Socrates contends that a Christian who marries a non-believer cannot be a "credible witness". A person who continually commits gluttony displays a weak faith; does he not?

Please don't mention endocrinological disorders as they are far more rare than claimed by the mouths that wear the feedbag.

If a congregation will not allow a practicing homosexual to be a member-in-goodstanding, shouldn't they similarly persecute practicing gluttons?

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a rope to pass through the eye of a needle than for a big ole butt to squeeze past the gates of heaven."

I've heard many a sermon decrying homosexuality but I can't recall a single one busting the chops of fat folks. Maybe because they can't afford to alienate all those ample derrieres from the pews.

I take it back. I did once see John Hagee declare that "Americans lack hard work and self-discipline." The tight headshot of a perspiring face and the doughy mottled neck flowing out over his starched white collar indicated he is familiar with neither.

[Pilgrim]

Hear! Hear! I agree. I always wonder about that one.

I always hear that excuse about "glands" and what not, but you know, you never see a person in Ethiopia suffering from "glandular" obesity.

And you are right on with Hagee.

[yxboom]

A glutton isn't based solely on fat percentage. DDW has a tremendous derriere' (j/k) :bunny:

[Gavin]

Posted by yxboom on Today 12:53 PM:

A glutton isn't based solely on fat percentage.
DDW has a tremendous derriere' (j/k)

:rofl:


Seriously, there are some big differences between being fat and being a homosexual. Nowhere in Scripture is fatness spoken of as pejoratively as homosexuality is in, say, Romans 1. Some people just have slow metabolisms and have a difficult time digesting food quickly. Some people have really busy jobs and don't have time to exercise. Sure, gluttony is a sin, but not all fatness is a result of gluttony.

I think fatness may damage a Christian's witness, but not necessarily, and certainly not completely.

[Pilgrim]

I would say that most fattness is the result of gluttony. Like I said, you don't hear of any glandular issues in third world countries.

[Gavin]

Pilgrim,

Well, even if that is the case, it is a seperate question, imho, to what extent struggling with a sin ruins a Christian's witness. Certnainly it damages it, but I would not compare this to homosexuality.

[Pilgrim]

I just think we make to much of it. The pastor beats his wife, well we can forgive him, the priest abuses power, the elder drinks too much, well no big deal, but the homosexual, kill 'em.

I have seen faithful men and women struggle with homosexuality and have appreciated their witness all the more for it. So I guess I don't quite agree with you 100%

[Gavin]

Pilgrim,

I agree that homosexuality is a sin just one sin among many, and should be treated with greater tolerance by a great deal of Christians. In comparison, however, I would still say that gluttony is the less damaging sin to someone's witness - by far.



blessings,
Gavin

[Pilgrim]

Perhaps you are right on that score. But should it be?

[Rubia Warren]

I see what you guys are saying, and I have often thought about that. But, what about the greedy christians, or the gossipy ones? Or the ones who don't like to share? There's one lady whom I wouldn't allow my worst enemy to hang out with because she is so sneaky, envious, and slanderous (incidently, she is overweight, also- but that isn't my point, nor am I realting it to her other "wonderful" qualities).

I know that a christian should not marry a non-believer.... but does this mean that LA's wife is scarred forever? I mean, all she had to do is repent to God- we all make decisions that are not with the best judgement. I don't see how making one mistake will ruin her "witness" for life. In a case like that, with marriage, you don't get any "do-overs", or "I'll try harder tomorrow" or something. Nothing personal against LazyAgnostic, but because of her decision to marry a non-christian, she will not have some of the benefits that she would being married to a believer- like having someone to pray with, somebody who is on the "same page", so to speak, and someone who will try to make more Godly decisions as he's leading the household, someone to study the word with, etc. but I don't see how that totally ruins her witness and scars her for life. What should we do, mark her with a scarlet "A", or something?

[Gavin]

Some thoughts directed toward anyone interested but no one in particular.

Two verses to keep in mind:

James 3:2
"We all stumble in many ways."

Romans 14:1
"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters."

I am not implying that gluttony is a "nondisputable matter" - but it still stands that there is an appopriate place for accepting other brothers/sisters in Christ, despite weaknesses/struggles. Obviously we draw the line somewhere - but still, none of us is perfect - we all have our struggles.

Another question - how do you define "fat"? I mean, are we talking about sumo wrestlers here, or people who are just fifteen pounds overweight? Or five? Surely, the less the overweightness, the less the damage to the witness, right?

My point it is not a black and white matter - fat Christian = necessarily bad witness.

I do see a pretty concrete distinction between gluttony and homosexuality. It is dangerous to compare sins, but gluttony is a more widespread sin generally (who has never over-eaten before?), whereas homosexuality appears to the struggle of only a few. Also, it is spoken of rather harshly of in Romans 1, and would be included in the "sexual sins" which Paul deprecates in I Corinthians 6:18 as "sins against one's own body". If a spectrum of sins can be made, with the most destructive and heinous on the left, and the least on the right, I think it is probably fair to say that homosexuality would be much farther to the right than gluttony.

If anyone has any info about people being fat but not because of gluttony, but rather because of a lack of good food, lack of opportunity to exercise, and slow metabolism, please enlighten us. I imagine some people find slimness much more difficult than others.

One final point: it is possible to be a huge glutton, but still be very thin.

[Piebald]

but rather because of a lack of good food, lack of opportunity to exercise, and slow metabolism, please enlighten us

Well, I know lots of folks who overly-depend on fast food because of convenience. It's not exactly the most healthy stuff for one to consume on a daily basis.

And people are just lazy about exercise, myself included.

For the record I struggle from both a tendency to over-eat and a homosexual 'inclination'. I do not engage in homosexual behavior beyond the mind (though that in and of itself is too much, of course), and I have implimented lots of exercise into my daily routine. Everyone struggles with sin, we just shouldn't be agressively persuing it and refusing to repent.

[Woman]

:rofl:

LA,

Hey man, I agree! Those pavement punishing gluttons are surely going to hell and cannot possibly be acceptable witnesses.

I think maybe those with a bonafide "gladular" problem might get a dispensation. But if they are consuming cake, snarfing snickers, munching moon pies, nibbling nachos, tasting twinkies, gobbling goobers, bolting big macs, chewing chocolate and snackin' on snickerdoodles...forget it!!!

This is one sin there is no use denying. When the scale screams and the ground groans - GUILTY!!!!

I have long believed that chubbies, tubbies, whales and fatties should be segregated from the rest of society. It's bad enough that our normal, slim eyeballs have to look at those mounds of flesh...but their breath is sure to be tinged with garlic bread and sauteed onions. Ewwwwww!

On top of all that, they take up more than their fair share of space and with all that huffing and puffing they surely inhale way more than their fair share of air! Even their clothing requires more fabric and they sweat too much!

I think we ought to form a territory...maybe South Dakota...and just put all the lardos together.

Thank you LA for bringing this appalling segment of mankind to our attention.

Well, I have to run - I'm off to chew on a celery stick, drink designer water and feel superior.

ta ta,

:yipee: :yipee:

[Rubia Warren]

Woman,
I am not overweight (well, okay, maybe by about 15 or 20 pounds)... but the way you just said all of that offended me greatly. Grow up!
That's all I can say.... I am so miffed, I cannot even type.

[Woman]

Big Mama La Rubia:
Woman,
I am not overweight (well, okay, maybe by about 15 or 20 pounds)... but the way you just said all of that offended me greatly. Grow up!
That's all I can say.... I am so miffed, I cannot even type.



OUCH!!!!!HA HA HA You're kidding right??

Geeeeeeeeez, :bonk:

I thought my response was so utterly OVER THE TOP that NO ONE would fail to "get" it!

:argh:

Guess I was wrong!

By the way, I like your new avatar - the old ones were causing me to STUMBLE! :rofl:

Lighten up, Sweet cheeks! (Seriously, if you had followed any thread I've participated in, you'd know me better than that)

Hope your hubby is feeling well. :smile:

[Rubia Warren]

Nice save...... lucky you. Er, and don't ever call me "sweetcheeks" again.

[Woman]

VERY TICKED OFF LA RUBIA:

Nice save...... lucky you. Er, and don't ever call me "sweetcheeks" again.

I don't believe you! Are you nuts?? Did you really NOT get the whole tone of LA's initial post? Listen, I can't help it if you have no sense of humor and honestly cannot tell parody when you read it. But back off! Do NOT accuse me of trying to "save" myself! You don't know me at all. If you did, you'd be feeling sheepish instead of so judgmental. But that's what the whole reply was for anyway, so maybe you'll never get it!

I still hope your husband is recovered and feeling well, but don't challenge my integrity okay?

*edited to include quote

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 07:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Woman:

VERY TICKED OFF LA RUBIA:



I don't believe you! Are you nuts?? Did you really NOT get the whole tone of LA's initial post? Listen, I can't help it if you have no sense of humor and honestly cannot tell parody when you read it. But back off! Do NOT accuse me of trying to "save" myself! You don't know me at all. If you did, you'd be feeling sheepish instead of so judgmental. But that's what the whole reply was for anyway, so maybe you'll never get it!

I still hope your husband is recovered and feeling well, but don't challenge my integrity okay?

*edited to include quote

Woman,

SHUT UP.

Yes, I DID get the tone of LA's first post... and I perceived that the root of the reason why he brought up gluttony was because of the comments that someone made to him concerning his wife marrying an unbeliever, and it semed to have rubbed him the wrong way (personally, it would have bothered me, too).
I am judging you?!?! WHEN?!?! You have not seen me become judgemental, so quit whining.
"Questioning your integrity"?!?! HUH?!?! You are strange, indeed.
Perhaps you are right.... I don't have much of a sense of humor when it comes to your post. There are many people who are overweight on this board, and they struggle HARD with it, and I love them very much, and your "joking" was extremely insensitive, even if you didn't mean to be mean. Perhaps as I am getting a sense of humor, you could learn how to be more sensitive.

[Dark Knight]

A Christian's witness is not of themselves, it is of Christ! The imperfect gives witness of the perfect.

If Christian's are "witnesses" because they have it together, then they offer those who don't very little hope.

The behavior of man is not a testimony of God's greatness, but his faith is.

[Gavin]

Dark Knight,

A Christian's witness is not of themselves, it is of Christ! The imperfect gives witness of the perfect.

If Christian's are "witnesses" because they have it together, then they offer those who don't very little hope.

The behavior of man is not a testimony of God's greatness, but his faith is.

That is, of course, true, but at the same time, our imperfection glorifies God's bounty precisely because he changes us. It does not glorify God for a Christian to live a life of sin, and never change. It is perfectly appropriate to say that such a believer has a "bad witness".

Paul is most strict in his condemnation of the idea that "our good witness is precisely in being bad" (which I am not necessarily saying that you are saying).

Romans 3
5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

It is true that God is glorified by his grace, but this grace is not grace if it does not compell change and sanctification in the hearts of believers.

Sincerely,
Gavin

[Gavin]

Woman,

:rofl:

LA,

Hey man, I agree! Those pavement punishing gluttons are surely going to hell and cannot possibly be acceptable witnesses.

I think maybe those with a bonafide "gladular" problem might get a dispensation. But if they are consuming cake, snarfing snickers, munching moon pies, nibbling nachos, tasting twinkies, gobbling goobers, bolting big macs, chewing chocolate and snackin' on snickerdoodles...forget it!!!

This is one sin there is no use denying. When the scale screams and the ground groans - GUILTY!!!!

I have long believed that chubbies, tubbies, whales and fatties should be segregated from the rest of society. It's bad enough that our normal, slim eyeballs have to look at those mounds of flesh...but their breath is sure to be tinged with garlic bread and sauteed onions. Ewwwwww!

On top of all that, they take up more than their fair share of space and with all that huffing and puffing they surely inhale way more than their fair share of air! Even their clothing requires more fabric and they sweat too much!

I think we ought to form a territory...maybe South Dakota...and just put all the lardos together.

Thank you LA for bringing this appalling segment of mankind to our attention.

Well, I have to run - I'm off to chew on a celery stick, drink designer water and feel superior.

ta ta,

:yipee: :yipee:



This post is very offensive to over-weight people indeed! Even if you were joking.:hrm:

Please tone it down and give some more thought and care to your posts, eh?

:smile:

[Freak]

Today @ 12:38 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Dark Knight:

A Christian's witness is not of themselves, it is of Christ! The imperfect gives witness of the perfect.

If Christian's are "witnesses" because they have it together, then they offer those who don't very little hope.

The behavior of man is not a testimony of God's greatness, but his faith is.

That's a good point.

[PRAISE]

May I make a comment? I SAMUEL 16:7!

[Rubia Warren]

Aw, man, PRAISE! Now I gotta look it up.:tongue: :kiss:

[Gavin]

Great verse, Praise!:thumb:

I will post it here so people don't have to look it up.

1 Samuel 16
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

[PRAISE]

Today @ 01:13 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
La Rubia:

Aw, man, PRAISE! Now I gotta look it up.:tongue: :kiss:

OF COURSE!:argue:

[PRAISE]

Today @ 01:16 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Gavin:

Great verse, Praise!:thumb:

I will post it here so people don't have to look it up.

1 Samuel 16
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

Isn't that what it REALLY is all about! You Da' Man, Gavin!

Praise!

:thumb:

[Gavin]

Judges 3

17 He presented the tribute to Eglon king of Moab, who was a very fat man.

21 Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king's belly. 22 Even the handle sank in after the blade, which came out his back. Ehud did not pull the sword out, and the fat closed in over it.

Well you cannot say that people were not fat in Bible times . . . . :hrm:

[Woman]

Woman:
Do NOT accuse me of trying to "save" myself! You don't know me at all. If you did, you'd be feeling sheepish instead of so judgmental. But that's what the whole reply was for anyway, so maybe you'll never get it!

I still hope your husband is recovered and feeling well, but don't challenge my integrity okay?

LA RUBIA -
SHUT UP.

Yes, I DID get the tone of LA's first post... and I perceived that the root of the reason why he brought up gluttony was because of the comments that someone made to him concerning his wife marrying an unbeliever, and it semed to have rubbed him the wrong way (personally, it would have bothered me, too).
I am judging you?!?! WHEN?!?! You have not seen me become judgemental, so quit whining.
"Questioning your integrity"?!?! HUH?!?! You are strange, indeed.
Perhaps you are right.... I don't have much of a sense of humor when it comes to your post. There are many people who are overweight on this board, and they struggle HARD with it, and I love them very much, and your "joking" was extremely insensitive, even if you didn't mean to be mean. Perhaps as I am getting a sense of humor, you could learn how to be more sensitive.

"SHUT-UP?" Is that your classy response?

Then allow me to try to respond with more dignity. Yes, you did question my integrity. It is evident that you read my silly piece as some kind of "REAL" hatred of over-weight people. (This is patently ridiculous as I have fought the battle of the bulge for years. And trust me, your 15-20 pound problem is one most heavy people would gladly trade you for.) So, you mis-read my parody, got yourself worked up, decided to lecture me about my insensitivity (though you know nothing about me) and whipped off a heated reply. When I responded, telling you that I was anything but serious (which really ought to have been evident) and sent along my best wishes for your recently hospitalized husband, you decided that I was not sincere and said "Nice save."

Now, this does does indeed bring into question my intent and sincerity. I resent that. Not only did you persist in naming me "extremely insensitive" and "strange" (which is being judgemental) but when I pointed out that you were judging someone you don't know...you threatened me with "You have not (yet) seen me be judgemental, so stop whining."

Then, for good measure you toot your own horn by lecturing me about the many over-weight people on this board whom you understand and love.

Really, I find this whole thread has disolved into something you've chosen to define. I think if you go back and read it, you'll see that not only was LA's original post meant to point out how silly it is to ostrasize one group of "sinners" over another - nearly all the other responders "got" it.

Now, as I said - I have personal experience with the issue of weight and I'm not talking about vanity, here - but health. Surely you can see by the blatently exagerated statements in my original post, the use of aliteration and goofy phrases that it was a parody of how stupid someone sounds who takes up a position against any segment of society which is "different."

Now, perhaps you are just a very stubborn person who cannot back away from an argument once you start it. But honestly, you are out of line. You are indeed being judgmental. And now so am I, by pointing out your self-righteous and stubborn attitude. Two wrongs don't make a right, so I'll take the initiative here and say to everyone like me, who has suffered with over-eating as a way of coping with other issues, I really don't think we are going to hell or have perpetual "garlic bread breath."

And now if you'll excuse me, I'm trading in my cerery stick and designer water for a big fat eclair! And if you don't appreciate me, my post or my explanation - then I suppose you can just say something clever again like "Shut-up"

Whatever,

(formerly chubby) Woman

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

Well, my wife is overweight, but I don't think it destroys her witness. She's a former prostitute, and has, since she quit, gained weight. She has an incredible testimony and the teenagers we minister to don't seem to care that she's big. Anyway, I read about the gluttony thing Paul was referring to. The Greeks would have feasts and eat until they were full, go out back, puke their guts out, then go back in and eat more. It was a ritual feast. Like I say to my teens, being overweight is not a sin, I'm just building God a BIG temple. :thumb:

[Gavin]

Dark Knight,

A Christian's witness is not of themselves, it is of Christ! The imperfect gives witness of the perfect.

If Christian's are "witnesses" because they have it together, then they offer those who don't very little hope.

The behavior of man is not a testimony of God's greatness, but his faith is.

Upon reflection I find myself entirely in agreement with these words. But I do hold that how great someone's faith is will affect their actions (even eating), hence my comments above directed to you.

[Gavin]

Bill the cat,

Like I say to my teens, being overweight is not a sin, I'm just building God a BIG temple.



:rofl:

[PRAISE]

Today @ 01:26 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Bill the Cat:

Well, my wife is overweight, but I don't think it destroys her witness. She's a former prostitute, and has, since she quit, gained weight. She has an incredible testimony and the teenagers we minister to don't seem to care that she's big. Anyway, I read about the gluttony thing Paul was referring to. The Greeks would have feasts and eat until they were full, go out back, puke their guts out, then go back in and eat more. It was a ritual feast. Like I say to my teens, being overweight is not a sin, I'm just building God a BIG temple. :thumb:

Beautiful, Bill!:smile:

PRAISE!:thumb:

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 08:25 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Woman:

Woman:


LA RUBIA -


"SHUT-UP?" Is that your classy response?

Then allow me to try to respond with more dignity. Yes, you did question my integrity. It is evident that you read my silly piece as some kind of "REAL" hatred of over-weight people. (This is patently ridiculous as I have fought the battle of the bulge for years. And trust me, your 15-20 pound problem is one most heavy people would gladly trade you for.) So, you mis-read my parody, got yourself worked up, decided to lecture me about my insensitivity (though you know nothing about me) and whipped off a heated reply. When I responded, telling you that I was anything but serious (which really ought to have been evident) and sent along my best wishes for your recently hospitalized husband, you decided that I was not sincere and said "Nice save."

Now, this does does indeed bring into question my intent and sincerity. I resent that. Not only did you persist in naming me "extremely insensitive" and "strange" (which is being judgemental) but when I pointed out that you were judging someone you don't know...you threatened me with "You have not (yet) seen me be judgemental, so stop whining."

Then, for good measure you toot your own horn by lecturing me about the many over-weight people on this board whom you understand and love.

Really, I find this whole thread has disolved into something you've chosen to define. I think if you go back and read it, you'll see that not only was LA's original post meant to point out how silly it is to ostrasize one group of "sinners" over another - nearly all the other responders "got" it.

Now, as I said - I have personal experience with the issue of weight and I'm not talking about vanity, here - but health. Surely you can see by the blatently exagerated statements in my original post, the use of aliteration and goofy phrases that it was a parody of how stupid someone sounds who takes up a position against any segment of society which is "different."

Now, perhaps you are just a very stubborn person who cannot back away from an argument once you start it. But honestly, you are out of line. You are indeed being judgmental. And now so am I, by pointing out your self-righteous and stubborn attitude. Two wrongs don't make a right, so I'll take the initiative here and say to everyone like me, who has suffered with over-eating as a way of coping with other issues, I really don't think we are going to hell or have perpetual "garlic bread breath."

And now if you'll excuse me, I'm trading in my cerery stick and designer water for a big fat eclair! And if you don't appreciate me, my post or my explanation - then I suppose you can just say something clever again like "Shut-up"

Whatever,

(formerly chubby) Woman

Woman,
*sigh*
Yes, I did sense your joke- it just wasn't funny. If you will look back at my original post to you, I didn't judge you, I told you how I felt- offended. I didn't like the original tone of your post, and I still don't... sorry! Not everyone will like everything you are gonna say- you can't make 'em laugh 100% of the time, even if you make a godzilla-sized post like this one I just quoted and make something out of nothing, which is exactly what you are doing with me (I am so glad I am not a man! What they must go through with us women who go on and on over nothing.) Note that I said "US women", including myself.
Don't like "shut up"? I could have said, "shut your gaping hole!!!!" but I thought just "shut up" would be better. It's real classy, I think... kinda like how you STARTED OUT calling me "BIG MAMA".
Anyway, I didn't question your integrity- don't get so dramatic about it. I didn't like how you went overboard in your first post, and I told you how I felt about it, and told you to grow up.
Now, are you going to get over this? Or are you just going to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on..........................

:duh:

[Woman]

La Rubia:
Don't like "shut up"? I could have said, "shut your gaping hole!!!!" but I thought just "shut up" would be better.

1. It's still not classy.

2. I don't expect to make everyone laugh. But I don't expect to be called names by folks who don't know me when they don't get it. (hint: there's a huge difference between parody and "joking")

3. You did in fact question my sincerity, which to me is my integrity.

But...you win! I'm feeling a little intimidated by your anger.

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

Bowl of milk, table 2?? Reeeer!!

[Woman]

Bill,

LOL :lol:
pffffft, rarrrre!

Never fear, I have retracted my claws and become a pussy cat.

prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

:hi:

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 09:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Woman:

La Rubia:


1. It's still not classy.

2. I don't expect to make everyone laugh. But I don't expect to be called names by folks who don't know me when they don't get it. (hint: there's a huge difference between parody and "joking")

3. You did in fact question my sincerity, which to me is my integrity.

But...you win! I'm feeling a little intimidated by your anger.

:rofl:
Now this is funny!
I didn't call you a name... YOU called ME a name!
And I didn't question your sincerity- I questioned your SENSITIVITY.
I have no anger for you, woman. I am getting annoyed, but I am not angry at all.
Now, are you finished, or is there anything else you need to air?

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

La Rubia,
Could you put the J-Lo pic back? She's groooooovy!!!

[Rubia Warren]

Maybe.:hrm: I'll see what I can do.:brow: :brow:
J/K

[Woman]

*soft, warm, patient, tolerant smile*


prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

Thanks Now are we all hunky dory?

[Gavin]

Hey that old woman avatar is way groovier.

[Sozo]

Yes

[Rubia Warren]

Yesterday @ 10:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Gavin:

Hey that old woman avatar is way groovier.
She is, isn't she? It's Mozart's wife, Constanze.

[Socrates]

Lazy Agnostic whinged:

Our illustrious Socrates contends that a Christian who marries a non-believer cannot be a "credible witness".

He was referring to this thread I started » Theology Wing » Theology 102 » Should a Christian ever enter into marriage with a non-Christian? It was in reference to Lazy Agnostic citing his supposedly Christian wife as an authority for a liberal abortion view. And I wondered what sort of witness she could have since she has clearly disobeyed a command against being unequally yoked with an unbeliever, especially one who is so active against Christianity.

La Rubia got it right when she replied:I know that a christian should not marry a non-believer.... but does this mean that LA's wife is scarred forever? I mean, all she had to do is repent to God- we all make decisions that are not with the best judgement. I don't see how making one mistake will ruin her "witness" for life. In a case like that, with marriage, you don't get any "do-overs", or "I'll try harder tomorrow" or something. Nothing personal against LazyAgnostic, but because of her decision to marry a non-christian, she will not have some of the benefits that she would being married to a believer- like having someone to pray with, somebody who is on the "same page", so to speak, and someone who will try to make more Godly decisions as he's leading the household, someone to study the word with, etc. but I don't see how that totally ruins her witness and scars her for life. What should we do, mark her with a scarlet "A", or something?Indeed so. Snowball and I affirmed that if she repented and asked God for forgiveness, she would get it and we could move on. This doesn't mean that she can escape all the consequences of her foolish choice in marriage as La Rubia said, but Mrs LA need not be scarred for life to use LR's expression.

Indeed, Lazy Agnostic said "she has" (i.e. his wife has repented and asked God for forgiveness), and Snowball said that this was the end of the matter. But then one Rahab turns out to be Mrs LA, and she hasn't repented of this at all. Rather, she still tries to defensively justify her action. But of course, without the slightest attempt to back up her points with Scripture or deal with the Scriptural prohibitions against being unequally yoked.

So while being unequally yoked is a problem, it is certainly a forgivable problem, and nothing that can't stop a believer from moving forward in Christ. But if one not only commits this sin but also tries to JUSTIFY it is definitely not a credible Christian witness. So the difference is between COMMITTING a sin (which all Christians do) and CONTINUING IN and JUSTIFYING a sin (which a Christian should not).

[Rubia Warren]

Good post, So-crates.:thumb:

[Socrates]

:cheers: La Rubia :joy:

[flipper]

LaRubia:

I think you just got trolled!

.....


No wait, you guys were just fighting.

Gladiators! Let the games begin!

[Socrates]

Today @ 06:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Pilgrim:I just think we make to much of it. The pastor beats his wife, well we can forgive him,Should we if he's unrepentant?... the priest abuses power, the elder drinks too much, well no big deal,Who says so? And note that drunkenness not drinking is the sin. but the homosexual, kill 'em.And who is arguing for that.I have seen faithful men and women struggle with homosexuality and have appreciated their witness all the more for it. So I guess I don't quite agree with you 100% Sure, but presumably they did not try to justify homosexual acts as OK?

[Lazy Agnostic]

[i]Today @ 05:26 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Socrates:
And who is arguing for [the homosexual to be killed]?
The deity of Scripture who filled the OT with ancient ignorance and atrocities disguised as divine justice. That would be Jesus if his eternal divinity is to be believed. That can't be whitewashed by embarrassed theologians pointing to a "new covenant".

Does Socrates believe that the illegality of homosexual acts has no standing today? If the State is supposedly an agent for God, shouldn't infidels be in some manner persecuted or diminished by law?

Sure, but presumably they did not try to justify homosexual acts as OK?

If the homosexual acknowledges that Scripture says it's wrong but continues to engage in the acts---and indeed says he no longer wants to be reminded of it by fellow congregants or other Christians---can that person be considered repentent? Can he be regarded as a member-in-goodstanding? Can his faith be reasonably called into question?

Does it hold the same for the Christian who continues to engage in practices which contribute to his obesity----such as spending the majority of his day pontificating in front of a computer rather than burning off a few calories by devoting some time to actual goodworks?

[Socrates]

Socrates:

And who is arguing for [the homosexual to be killed]?

Evidently Lazy Agnostic doesn't realise that "is" is a present tense.:The deity of Scripture who filled the OT with ancient ignorance and atrocities disguised as divine justice. And since you believe that humans arose by a process invovling death of the unfit, how do you justify this appalling chronological snobbery?That would be Jesus if his eternal divinity is to be believed. Yep, and your disproof is, what?That can't be whitewashed by embarrassed theologians pointing to a "new covenant".[/list]Yep, the one the Prophet Jeremiah talked about in Jeremiah Jeremiah 31:31 and fulfilled when Christ died for sins (Hebrews 8). Perhaps you should try to refute the article The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ (http://www.ariel.org/ff00006f.html)Does Socrates believe that the illegality of homosexual acts has no standing today? If the State is supposedly an agent for God, shouldn't infidels be in some manner persecuted or diminished by law?[list]Homosexuality should never have been legalized.

Sure, but presumably they did not try to justify homosexual acts as OK?
[list]If the homosexual acknowledges that Scripture says it's wrong but continues to engage in the acts---and indeed says he no longer wants to be reminded of it by fellow congregants or other Christians---can that person be considered repentent?Obviously not, since he still practises. Do you understand what repentant means? Can he be regarded as a member-in-goodstanding?No, and it would be harmful to both him and the congregation to pretend otherwise. Can his faith be reasonably called into question?Yes, obviously it CAN be, because I would question it. And it SHOULD be questioned too!

[Lazy Agnostic]

Does it hold the same for the Christian who continues to engage in practices which contribute to his obesity----such as spending the majority of his day pontificating in front of a computer rather than burning off a few calories by devoting some time to actual goodworks?

[Socrates]

LA, you can whinge all you like about fat people, skinny people, pimpled people, halitotic people and sky blue pink people. But you can't escape the fact that your wife disobeyed a clear command of Christ's chosen Apostle Paul against being unequally yoked with an unbeliever. No matter what real or imagined sins you can troll up, it doesn't alter the fact that she did wrong. And that she will continue to lack credibility as a Christian witness as long as she keeps up her emotional Scriptureless self-righteous self-justifications.

[Freak]

Being so called "fat" is highly subjective. When I traveled to Haiti I (though I'm height and weight proportionate) was considered a monster....as I'm 6'0 and 200.

[dizzle]

There have been some very good points raised. I have been asked if I have any credibility speaking out against abortion when I have had two abortions. And I say yes. I have thoroughly repented of my actions. When we justify our sins there is a huge problem no matter what the sin is.

And there are nonsinful reasons for being fat (which is subjective). I would also probably be thought of as a horse in Haiti and I am pretty thin.

[Pilgrim]

All I'm saying is that we are in a sad state when peple can bring suit against McDonalds because they are over weight.

[dizzle]

I agree. Though we all know that Ronald McDonald is satan.

[kiwimac]

Dee Dee,

That would make Hamburgler the Beast!

Kiwimac

[Rubia Warren]

And Grimace the false prophet.

[dizzle]

We have figured out the dastardly New Word Order my friends.

[Rubia Warren]

:hrm: I just love a good conspiracy theory.:hrm:

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 11:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Socrates:

LA, you can whinge all you like about fat people, skinny people, pimpled people, halitotic people and sky blue pink people. But you can't escape the fact that your wife disobeyed a clear command of Christ's chosen Apostle Paul against being unequally yoked with an unbeliever. No matter what real or imagined sins you can troll up, it doesn't alter the fact that she did wrong. And that she will continue to lack credibility as a Christian witness as long as she keeps up her emotional Scriptureless self-righteous self-justifications.
You can worship Paul and his commandments all you like; I'm no longer interested in your opinion of my wife. I'd like you to answer the other points.

Does Socrates believe homosexual acts should be illegal? If the State is supposedly an agent for God, shouldn't infidels be in some manner persecuted or diminished by law?

If the obese Christian acknowledges that Scripture says it's wrong but continues to engage in the acts---and indeed says he no longer wants to be reminded of it by fellow congregants or other Christians---can that person be considered repentent? Can he be regarded as a member-in-goodstanding? Can his faith be reasonably called into question?

Does it hold the same for the Christian who continues to engage in practices which contribute to his obesity----such as spending the majority of his day pontificating in front of a computer rather than burning off a few calories by devoting some time to actual goodworks?

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

Obesity is not a sin. If someone can prove it to me without Paul's reference to gluttony ( I already handled that one at the bottom here) http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=54550#post54550
that being overweight was a sin, you get the gold cupie doll
:bonk:

[Rubia Warren]

Oh! You've made it so hard. DRAT. I always wanted a gold cupie. Oh well. Ya can't have everything.

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

LaRubia, I like Janet, but I still wanna see the J Lo. It matches your sig name in some weird kinda way. Are you hispanic per chance?

[Rahab]

04-04-2003 @ 08:53 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=53207#post53207)
Lazy Agnostic:

Our illustrious Socrates contends that a Christian who marries a non-believer cannot be a "credible witness". A person who continually commits gluttony displays a weak faith; does he not?

Please don't mention endocrinological disorders as they are far more rare than claimed by the mouths that wear the feedbag.

If a congregation will not allow a practicing homosexual to be a member-in-goodstanding, shouldn't they similarly persecute practicing gluttons?

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a rope to pass through the eye of a needle than for a big ole butt to squeeze past the gates of heaven."

I've heard many a sermon decrying homosexuality but I can't recall a single one busting the chops of fat folks. Maybe because they can't afford to alienate all those ample derrieres from the pews.

I take it back. I did once see John Hagee declare that "Americans lack hard work and self-discipline." The tight headshot of a perspiring face and the doughy mottled neck flowing out over his starched white collar indicated he is familiar with neither.
Hello dearest Hubby... I think I'd like to clarify what I consider to be a " good witness". A "good witness" to me has little to do with the condition of a christian rather with his or her ability to demonstrate love to others. Empathy. Compassion. Grace.
What touches the heart of a non believer? race? size ? nationality? lifestyle?... or what behavior and actions result in demonstrating to that person the love of Christ?
What witness does a resentful slim and heterosexual christian provide? are sinful attitudes revealed always by exterior signs?
No telling what plagues the thoughts and emotions of many christians. And that part belongs to God and only to God to evaluate the state of real Christlikeness in any of us.
If there were a requirement for any of us to be perfect thru our human condition to be loved by God, what would be the value of the sacrifice of Christ?
The fact is that God loves the obese, the adulteress, the gay person, the drunkard, etc.... our witness is to display love and work on our own limitations.

[automatthew]

Can smokers be credible witnesses? After all, they're hurting their bodies, and I don't like how they smell.

[automatthew]

Rahab said:

What touches the heart of a non believer? race? size ? nationality? lifestyle?

Yeah, uh huh, because lifestyle is just another external attribute like race and physical size. It has nothing to do with the choices or character. And of course character has nothing to do with Christian witness. Sheesh.

[Rahab]

04-14-2003 @ 05:56 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=65757#post65757)
automatthew:

Rahab said:



Yeah, uh huh, because lifestyle is just another external attribute like race and physical size. It has nothing to do with the choices or character. And of course character has nothing to do with Christian witness. Sheesh.
Unfortunatly obesity is often caused by lifestyle. Absence of physical activity coupled with unhealthy eating habits. My point in that statement is that what you call character includes the ability to dispense to others what Christ demonstrated. And why ? maybe because what reaches a human heart is that exclusive act of goodness and empathy from one christian while so many people are witholding that goodness and empathy.
What is the character of Christ in your opinion? what prevails in His Message? how are we to reach the human heart? I am interested in your understanding of the christian character and how that character can touch the human heart and appeal to the world..... what is going to move the thoughts and feelings of a non believer?

[Rahab]

04-14-2003 @ 05:50 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=65746#post65746)
automatthew:

Can smokers be credible witnesses? After all, they're hurting their bodies, and I don't like how they smell.
What do you evaluate to be a "credible witness"?

[automatthew]

Rahab,

I'm not concerned with defining factors that constitute credibility as a Christian witness. My question (whether smokers can be credible witnesses) was intended to approach from a different angle the idea underlying this thread (how the mistreatment of our bodies affects our credibility). I'm not sure I have an answer to my own question. The obvious answers are too easy.

[Rahab]

Yesterday @ 04:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=70900#post70900)
automatthew:

Rahab,

I'm not concerned with defining factors that constitute credibility as a Christian witness. My question (whether smokers can be credible witnesses) was intended to approach from a different angle the idea underlying this thread (how the mistreatment of our bodies affects our credibility). I'm not sure I have an answer to my own question. The obvious answers are too easy.
I understand what you mean... by the very principle that we claim that our bodies are a temple to the Spirit of God, we ought to treat these bodies with care. But some individuals treat their bodies much better than christians do... take vegeterians for example or semi vegetarians who watch their meat intake. I do not know if we can honestly fulfill the above claim as we fail to follow healthy diets. We tend to pick on extreme examples of smoking but we neglict our indulging in unhealthy diets loaded with preservatives and chemical additives.
So where does the " credible witness" go?
My point is that we cannot rely on how we treat our bodies to project what you call a " credible witness". Especialy in the Us where we are constantly sollicitated to eating facilities which serve unhealthy foods.
Making another christian feel inedequate because he or she is a smoker is IMO hypocritical because only few christians can claim to indeed be a clean temple for God's Spirit.
So I rely more on the ability for a christian to love his neighbor to find my own models of what I consider to be a credible witness. I will be very inspired by a christian who displays ministering to all in the same fashion Christ ministers to us....that he may be overweight, a smoker, is not a factor to me to demean his witness. Unless that person makes claims to be above and beyond reproach. The claims are what may endanger his witness.

[EdJones]

Leviticus 3:16
: all the fat is the LORD's.