A question for all prophecy nuts!

[Sozo]

We all know that the Law was given by God, and though there may be disagreements as to what is still valid, and what is not, I am sure that we would agree that some aspect of the Laws of God are no longer valid. Whether it be sacrifices, Sabbath observance or whatever, not everything contained in the Law is still being observed.

So here is my question regarding Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished."

Jesus makes the statement that nothing will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Now we know that parts of the Law have passed away (unless everyone here is still practicing every aspect of it), so if all is accomplished (fulfilled), then wouldn't all the Prophets be fulfilled as well?

[Darth Xena]

All prophets are fulfilled in Christ. All God's promises are "yes" in Him. So, yes in that sense with His death and resurrection they all were. But are they still being progressively worked out? Yes. Scripture does this quite a bit.. it is the well known "now, not yet" phenomena.. which I wrote about, and will now make its first appearance at TWeb....

There is a phenomena in Scripture called the "now/not yet" phenomena where the Biblical writers often, in almost the same breath, say an event is done, and then say we are waiting for the event to be done. Some examples are:

The Kingdom of heaven: Christ says it was among them right then (Matthew 12:28, Luke 17:21), but then also said that they were waiting for it (Matthew 6:10, Luke 21:31)

The Adoption: Paul says that we have now received the spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15), and John says that we are now children of God (1 John 3:2), but Paul also says that we are waiting for the adoption (Romans 8:23, see also 1 John 3:2)

Salvation: We have been saved (Eph 2:8, 2 Tim. 1:9), we are being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, Phil 2:12-13), we are waiting to be saved (Acts 15:11, 1 Peter 1:9)

Glorification: We have already been glorified by virtue of being elected and justified (Romans 8:30) and we will be glorified after we have suffered for Christ (Romans 8:16)
Eternal Life: We have it now (John 6:47), we are waiting for it (Mark 10:30)

Judgment: the world has been judged (John 12:31), the world is being judged (Matthew 25), the world will be judged (Matthew 12:41, Hebrews 9:27)

Death: It has been abolished (2 Timothy 1:10), it will be abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26)

So, these types of events are progressive and consummational. The late David Chilton described it in this manner: "This introduces another basic Biblical pattern, a threefold pattern... Scripture presents salvation in terms of a definitive-progressive-final structure, and this is why Biblical prophecies often seem to overlap. Salvation was definitely accomplished in the perfect, finished work of Christ; it is progressively and increasingly applied during this age, personally and institutionally; and it will be finally achieved, in its highest fulfillment, at the end of history on the Last Day."

[Sozo]

Thank you Dee Dee...

I will take some time looking at those passages.

Maybe I am wrong, but it appears that all has been accomplished in the "spiritual" relm, but has yet manifested in the natural.

Am I heading in the right direction?

[PRAISE]

Dee Dee Warren:
All prophets are fulfilled in Christ. All God's promises are "yes" in Him. So, yes in that sense with His death and resurrection they all were. But are they still being progressively worked out? Yes. Scripture does this quite a bit.. it is the well known "now, not yet" phenomena.. which I wrote about, and will now make its first appearance at TWeb....

There is a phenomena in Scripture called the "now/not yet" phenomena where the Biblical writers often, in almost the same breath, say an event is done, and then say we are waiting for the event to be done. Some examples are:

The Kingdom of heaven: Christ says it was among them right then (Matthew 12:28, Luke 17:21), but then also said that they were waiting for it (Matthew 6:10, Luke 21:31)

The Adoption: Paul says that we have now received the spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15), and John says that we are now children of God (1 John 3:2), but Paul also says that we are waiting for the adoption (Romans 8:23, see also 1 John 3:2)

Salvation: We have been saved (Eph 2:8, 2 Tim. 1:9), we are being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, Phil 2:12-13), we are waiting to be saved (Acts 15:11, 1 Peter 1:9)

Glorification: We have already been glorified by virtue of being elected and justified (Romans 8:30) and we will be glorified after we have suffered for Christ (Romans 8:16)
Eternal Life: We have it now (John 6:47), we are waiting for it (Mark 10:30)

Judgment: the world has been judged (John 12:31), the world is being judged (Matthew 25), the world will be judged (Matthew 12:41, Hebrews 9:27)

Death: It has been abolished (2 Timothy 1:10), it will be abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26)

So, these types of events are progressive and consummational. The late David Chilton described it in this manner: "This introduces another basic Biblical pattern, a threefold pattern... Scripture presents salvation in terms of a definitive-progressive-final structure, and this is why Biblical prophecies often seem to overlap. Salvation was definitely accomplished in the perfect, finished work of Christ; it is progressively and increasingly applied during this age, personally and institutionally; and it will be finally achieved, in its highest fulfillment, at the end of history on the Last Day."



:thumb:

[Darth Xena]

Dear Sozo.. yes you are heading in the right direction, but I do not think the distinction between spiritual and material is so clear cut.. there is an overlap. But yes, I see your point.

So.. though it is perfectly Biblical to have a statement of fulfillment with the actual outworking taking place over time.

[Sozo]

Then based on Jesus' statements all has been accomplished, there is nothing left in prophecy to be fulfilled?


(On a second note, I think Praise should get "Post of the day" honors, for his post in this thread!)

[Darth Xena]

No, that is not it, but I what I am saying is that all the law and prophecy has been judicially fulfilled in Christ. It is now being outworked. Why are we going to be resurrected? Because Christ was resurrected. Why are we going to overcome? Because Christ has overcome. Why are we declared righteous? Because Christ was righteous.

He was declaring that it was all about Him and the New Covenant. (there is another interesting preterist angle here that I am not going down.. and that is the mentioning of just the "law" and the heavens and earth passing away - which heavens and earth I do not take to mean the physical creation but the Old Covenant)

[Sozo]

Well you have my attention, because it confirms everything I believe about the circumcision of the flesh.

[smilax]

Old chestnut: it's not spiritual versus material, (dualism,) but position versus practice.

[Darth Xena]

Dear Sozo:

In what part did I have your attention? I was not sure what part you wanted me to expand upon.

[Sozo]

smilax:
Old chestnut: it's not spiritual versus material, (dualism,) but position versus practice.

That's not possible, based on Dee Dee's presentation.

If all has been fulfilled, but not manifested in the natural, then the reality in the spiritual is done! Not positionally, but actually!

Either I am spiritually alive or I am not.

My body will be resurrected, but I have been resurrected to life!

I am not declared righteous, I am righteous!

If this is not true, then I must still offer sacrifices.

[Darth Xena]

I do think it is a mixture of both spiritual/material and position versus practice. So I agree with your first two points, but necessarily the third one.. I say necessarily with caution.

We have been positionally declared righteous, but practically we still do sin. There will come a day when we practially will not sin.

[Sozo]

Dee Dee

I very much appreciate the time you have given me on this thread (I'm sure you have been/are very busy)!

As you may or may not know, I adopt a non-positional view of the gospel. Where I see Abraham as accounted as righteous, I see believers as truly righteous. This is the mystery "Christ in you"! However, as I said, I will take a closer look at what you presented in light of the prophetic picture.

"And the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air; and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."

Is this the cross?

[Darth Xena]

Hey thanks Sozo! Yeah, this is a crazy time, but you know I could not resist a prophecy nuts thread!!

As far as that verse from Revelation, you must understand that I believe that Revelation concerns primarily the judgment of Jerusalem and apostate Judaism in the Jewish Wars of 67-70AD.

[Hitch]

Klaatu barada nikto"


thats what I was going to say.....

[Darth Xena]

Hey Sozo.. I am going to be gettng back to this.. just give me some time to finish up a lot of this initial Admin stuff I am doing, and I wil be diving back into heavy discussions.

[Sozo]

Dee Dee Warren:
Hey Sozo.. I am going to be gettng back to this.. just give me some time to finish up a lot of this initial Admin stuff I am doing, and I wil be diving back into heavy discussions. :cool: I was just noticing your Avatar, are you preparing to do a major ear cleaning on Boom?

[Darth Xena]

How could you just notice it!! LOL, Xena is the bomb!!

And I love this smiley :argh: where was this one when I was debating certain people in the past??

[Sozo]

Dee Dee Warren:
How could you just notice it!! LOL, Xena is the bomb!!

And I love this smiley :argh: where was this one when I was debating certain people in the past??

You guys are doing a terrific job on this site!

I love this one too :argh: . I find that I am more often the wall than the smiley.

[Hitch]

Dee Dee Warren:
All prophets are fulfilled in Christ. All God's promises are "yes" in Him. So, yes in that sense with His death and resurrection they all were. But are they still being progressively worked out? Yes. Scripture does this quite a bit.. it is the well known "now, not yet" phenomena.. which I wrote about, and will now make its first appearance at TWeb....

There is a phenomena in Scripture called the "now/not yet" phenomena where the Biblical writers often, in almost the same breath, say an event is done, and then say we are waiting for the event to be done. Some examples are:

The Kingdom of heaven: Christ says it was among them right then (Matthew 12:28, Luke 17:21), but then also said that they were waiting for it (Matthew 6:10, Luke 21:31)

The Adoption: Paul says that we have now received the spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15), and John says that we are now children of God (1 John 3:2), but Paul also says that we are waiting for the adoption (Romans 8:23, see also 1 John 3:2)

Salvation: We have been saved (Eph 2:8, 2 Tim. 1:9), we are being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, Phil 2:12-13), we are waiting to be saved (Acts 15:11, 1 Peter 1:9)

Glorification: We have already been glorified by virtue of being elected and justified (Romans 8:30) and we will be glorified after we have suffered for Christ (Romans 8:16)
Eternal Life: We have it now (John 6:47), we are waiting for it (Mark 10:30)

Judgment: the world has been judged (John 12:31), the world is being judged (Matthew 25), the world will be judged (Matthew 12:41, Hebrews 9:27)

Death: It has been abolished (2 Timothy 1:10), it will be abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26)

So, these types of events are progressive and consummational. The late David Chilton described it in this manner: "This introduces another basic Biblical pattern, a threefold pattern... Scripture presents salvation in terms of a definitive-progressive-final structure, and this is why Biblical prophecies often seem to overlap. Salvation was definitely accomplished in the perfect, finished work of Christ; it is progressively and increasingly applied during this age, personally and institutionally; and it will be finally achieved, in its highest fulfillment, at the end of history on the Last Day." Isnt this basic notion evidenced in the parables which show progression in and through the historical process?


H

[Darth Xena]

Yes Hitch I would say so.

[Darth Xena]

Sozo... help me out... I am frazzled, what did you want me to answer or talk about. Eeek!!!

[Sozo]

Dee Dee Warren:
Sozo... help me out... I am frazzled, what did you want me to answer or talk about. Eeek!!!

Since ALL prophecy has been fulfilled in Christ (based on Matthew 5:17), then the prospect of any future initiatory prophecy is false.

The kingdom of heaven is in place and awaiting the manifistation of the children of God.

Our bodies are awaiting the adoption and resurrection, but both are fulfilled, they cannot be recalled.

Only our bodies are awaiting the day of redemption.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

[Darth Xena]

Since ALL prophecy has been fulfilled in Christ (based on Matthew 5:17), then the prospect of any future initiatory prophecy is false.


Sozo, if I am understanding you correctly, we are in agreement. I appreciate your use of the term "initiatory." However, I think you may apply this idea in a way I would not agree with, but I cautiously do think at this point we are in philosphocial agreement.

[Sozo]

Dee Dee Warren:


Sozo, if I am understanding you correctly, we are in agreement. I appreciate your use of the term "initiatory." However, I think you may apply this idea in a way I would not agree with, but I cautiously do think at this point we are in philosphocial agreement.

I have much to learn in this area, but it really helps me in understanding my current "Christian" world view.

[Darth Xena]

Hey Sozo, well I would love to have an idepth rap with you on eschatology for you are right..... despite the assertions of the "panmillennialists and pantribulationists", what one believes in this area does have deep implications for what we believe in other areas.