Poll: What Happens to the Dead?

[elysian]

My mother has some very bizarre (IMO) opinions regarding the dead. She believes they can see everything that goes on with the living (kind of like celestial spies) and that they can intercede in the lives of the living.

I say this borders on ancestor worship and is not a Scriptural belief. Jesus says there is a chasm between the living and the dead that can't be crossed (Luke 16:26.)

Paul suggests an explanation that makes more sense:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (NIV)

Paul is talking about an event in the future, "we will be changed," not "better watch out because your dead grandmother is watching your every move."

Anyway, what do you believe on "what happens to the dead?"

[Assistant Junior Deputy Janitor Analogman]

Wheres the poll?

[Xmansmommy]

I lean toward the view that we will all return to dust until the future resurrection of those who inherit eternal life/immortality. I've seen enough biblically to adhere to this belief but don't ask me to defend it. :egad:

[Abigail]

Our bodies 'sleep' in the dust until resurrection but our souls remain conscious (the souls in Revelation are conscious). I do not believe we can still see what goes on here however.

[elysian]

The poll is there, analogman, it's just that the text posts while you're creating the poll, so you got in early and could view the text as I was still typing the poll questions.

xmansmommy-

This is the view I take as well. There is plenty of backup for it- not just 1 Corinthians 15. I just like Paul's imagery and explanation.

Jesus says in Matthew 24:30-31

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (NIV)

Also the End of Days and the Final Judgment is explained in Revelation:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV)

[Maxentius]

Our bodies 'sleep' in the dust until resurrection but our souls remain conscious (the souls in Revelation are conscious). I do not believe we can still see what goes on here however.

NOTE: This is my private opinion, I make no claims for the universality/orthodoxy of what I claim!

I believe in what I call (I just made it up now!) "Modified Soul sleep".

Let me explain:

The idea that our "essence" is our soul, which separates from our bodies at death, is not really a biblical one.

There is no such thing as "Ed" without a body and a soul.

So what happens when we die?

In some mysterious way we are with God, yet we are also here on earth. We actually enjoy God's presence in "heaven", yet we are also asleep here on earth.

Now it gets realy wierd. :hehe:

Since God is beyond time, all human history is an instant for him. So when I die, according to God's reckoning I am already with him in heaven--in my body!

Since we are on earth and locked in time we see an apparent separation of our "soul" from our body, but according to God's view it is already the end of history and the whole person is already there--body and soul!.

As I said, this is very speculative. :smile:

[nomad7674]

First, before the Rapture and before the Judgement:

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[3] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

i.e. Absent from our bodies. Present in a "waiting place" where provisional comfort or punishment is handed out. Then, the rapture occurs (I think after the Tribulation, but I know I am in the minority on that one),

1 Thessalonians 4
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

i.e. Physical resurrection for the dead in Christ, bodily transformation for the living in Christ.

Then, the dead who are not in Christ will rise for judgement.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

i.e. Bodily resurrection for the unredeemed, and exile to the lake of fire.

And last, but not least, those raised to life in Christ will be placed on a New Earth, and smaller number will be allowed to serve in Heaven itself before God's throne.

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

Phew. Lots of verses. Anyway, those are the high points from my studying. :smile:

[NSMinistries]

we're dead and the worms are feed...

but our souls go on.

beleivers heaven
others??? wait till judgment

[Abigail]

NOTE: This is my private opinion, I make no claims for the universality/orthodoxy of what I claim!

INow it gets realy wierd. :hehe:

Since God is beyond time, all human history is an instant for him. So when I die, according to God's reckoning I am already with him in heaven--in my body!

Since we are on earth and locked in time we see an apparent separation of our "soul" from our body, but according to God's view it is already the end of history and the whole person is already there--body and soul!.

As I said, this is very speculative. :smile:
I'll give it a thought :teeth:

[themuzicman]

For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight-- 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Two choices: In body, with the Lord. Which do you think happens when you die?

Michael

[nomad7674]

Since God is beyond time, all human history is an instant for him. So when I die, according to God's reckoning I am already with him in heaven--in my body!

This is known as the doctrine of the "eternal present," and has not been declared a heresy, though my college philosophy professor called it "irrational." The idea is that God experiences time like we would experience a movie, if every frame were laid out in front of us at the same time.

Here is one article on the idea: http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/stump-kretzmann.html. Warning, tho. Halfway thru, the sentence appears "But here things begin to get complicated." They got complicated long before then! :lol:

And to keep with TWeb decorum, I'll quote a relevant passage here. Too long to include the whole thing:
In 1981 Eleonore Stump and the late Norman Kretzmann sparked a renewal of interest in the doctrine of divine timelessness by proposing a model of God’s relationship to time which allegedly demonstrated the possibility of God’s being atemporal and yet really related to the world. The heart of the Stump-Kretzmann proposal lies in their conception of a new species of simultaneity, which they call "eternal-temporal simultaneity" (or "ET-simultaneity").{5} They take the generic concept of simultaneity to be existence or occurrence at once (that is, together). "Temporal simultaneity" refers to a species of this generic concept and means existence or occurrence at one and the same time. Temporal simultaneity and simultaneity are not the same, since between two eternal entities or events there obtains another species of the generic concept of simultaneity called "eternal simultaneity," which is existence or occurrence at one and the same eternal present. Thus, the two species of simultaneity are distinguished by the specific content given to the general notion at once, or together. Simultaneity in general involves co-existence or co-occurrence, but does not specify whether this co-existence or co-occurrence is at one and the same time or at one and the same eternal present.

[elysian]

NOTE: This is my private opinion, I make no claims for the universality/orthodoxy of what I claim!

I believe in what I call (I just made it up now!) "Modified Soul sleep".

Let me explain:

The idea that our "essence" is our soul, which separates from our bodies at death, is not really a biblical one.

There is no such thing as "Ed" without a body and a soul.

So what happens when we die?

In some mysterious way we are with God, yet we are also here on earth. We actually enjoy God's presence in "heaven", yet we are also asleep here on earth.

Now it gets realy wierd. :hehe:

Since God is beyond time, all human history is an instant for him. So when I die, according to God's reckoning I am already with him in heaven--in my body!

Since we are on earth and locked in time we see an apparent separation of our "soul" from our body, but according to God's view it is already the end of history and the whole person is already there--body and soul!.

As I said, this is very speculative. :smile:


Paul simply says it's a mystery- I dare to speculate that since God isn't constrained to the linear concept of time as we are, that once we cross that boundary from organic life to bodily death we immediately arrive at the End of Days/Final Judgment- but we will all be raised and changed together- those of us living now and those who have not even yet been born.

One of the lines from Handel's Messiah that always intrigued me was the line "And so worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God, yet in my flesh shall I see God." (from "I Know That My Redeemer Liveth") My son simply thought it was cool I got to sing about worms :lol: :lol: but the idea of "dust to dust" yet we are raised with a body intrigues me.
Bodily resurrection is Scriptural (see 1 Corinthians 15) and is a standard, orthodox Lutheran teaching as well. Although our flesh will no longer be corruptible- we get perfect indestructible bodies :smile:. Some people take that to be the same body we have now only reanimated and improved, others believe God gives us completely new bodies.

[Maxentius]

Paul simply says it's a mystery- I dare to speculate that since God isn't constrained to the linear concept of time as we are, that once we cross that boundary from organic life to bodily death we immediately arrive at the End of Days/Final Judgment- but we will all be raised and changed together- those of us living now and those who have not even yet been born.

As I said, I am speculating. It is just something I thought about to reconcile our present reality, that we are psycho/somatic--not a ghost in a machine.

Yes, it is a mystery and I sometimes wonder if I am doing idle philosophy when I speculate about it. :hehe:

My view is similar to Luther's BTW--and I arrived at it without consulting his writings on that topic. Interestingly, he had the same attidute, "this may be true, and I am not dogmatic about it."

Some people take that to be the same body we have now only reanimated and improved, others believe God gives us completely new bodies.

The same is true of the new heaven and the new earth. Does the new heaven/earth grow out of the old, or does God create everything from scratch again after he destroys the present cosmos?

One of the cool things about Lutheranism is that we avoid being dogmatic about things about which Scripture is not.

This is known as the doctrine of the "eternal present," and has not been declared a heresy, though my college philosophy professor called it "irrational." The idea is that God experiences time like we would experience a movie, if every frame were laid out in front of us at the same time.

I think it is only irrational if we assume time itself is a constant, which it is not. The excerpt describes what I am thinking pretty well.

A lot hinges on what we think "eternal" means, as well as "temporal", whether God moves through time or trancends it etc. etc. It is speculative by nature--who can prove any of this?

[President-Elect $cirisme]

This is known as the doctrine of the "eternal present," and has not been declared a heresy, though my college philosophy professor called it "irrational." The idea is that God experiences time like we would experience a movie, if every frame were laid out in front of us at the same time.

Here is one article on the idea: http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/stump-kretzmann.html. Warning, tho. Halfway thru, the sentence appears "But here things begin to get complicated." They got complicated long before then! :lol:

And to keep with TWeb decorum, I'll quote a relevant passage here. Too long to include the whole thing:
Nomad... thanks for the link. I always thought I was the lone nut speculating whether God sees time that way. :hehe:

I will check out that article...

[elysian]

Yes, Ed, I am very grateful that Lutherans have some leeway on the "mystery" topics in Scripture and while it is interesting to discuss and speculate on the particulars I am sure we are all in for some surprises. The bottom line is that God is in control and He is faithful. Our opinions on what happens after death are merely informed speculation beyond knowing "we will be made incorruptible" and we "have a place in our Father's house."

I'm surprised not to have heard any RC views on this subject. I am curious to know if the "spy in the sky" view my mother holds (and used to scare the daylights out of us kids with) is a correct interpretation of Catholic teaching or if her views don't conform to Catholic teaching.

[Maxentius]

I'm surprised not to have heard any RC views on this subject. I am curious to know if the "spy in the sky" view my mother holds (and used to scare the daylights out of us kids with) is a correct interpretation of Catholic teaching or if her views don't conform to Catholic teaching.

Hmmm. Doesn't the "Spy in the Sky" thing sound a little like the belief that departed saints watch over us and intervene with prayers at our request and on our behalf? :huh:

I do not think your mother's view is strictly orthodox Catholic though. But I can see where one could arrive at that position given Catholic/Orthodox teaching. (Some Anglicans too!) As I said in another thread, often times something doubtful becomes a full fledged doctrine because of a misuse of tradition.

[elysian]

I think that might have been what happened. She caught me off guard with this over the weekend when she had mentioned something about a deceased friend of hers must have been interceding on her behalf and it caught me as odd. She always used to say "well so and so can see everything you do" regarding dead relatives which was creepy. There's just something wrong the thought that dead people are watching me take a shower or worse. It sounds like ghost voyeurism. When I was a little kid the whole concept gave me nightmares.

[spl_cadet]

I think that might have been what happened. She caught me off guard with this over the weekend when she had mentioned something about a deceased friend of hers must have been interceding on her behalf and it caught me as odd. She always used to say "well so and so can see everything you do" regarding dead relatives which was creepy. There's just something wrong the thought that dead people are watching me take a shower or worse. It sounds like ghost voyeurism. When I was a little kid the whole concept gave me nightmares.

The saints can do whatever God lets them do, which means no peeping. They can, and do, pray for us however and can watch over us.

[elysian]

The saints can do whatever God lets them do, which means no peeping. They can, and do, pray for us however and can watch over us.

I'm glad to know this means that my Uncle Bob (who was a bit of a perv and had nudie pictures all over the inside of his garage) isn't watching every time I take a shower.

[themuzicman]

:lmbo: Oh, the machinations Catholics have to keep up to support their doctrines...

[elysian]

:lmbo: Oh, the machinations Catholics have to keep up to support their doctrines...

I didn't want to bash Catholics, I just want to understand 1.) is what my Mom believes within the realm of standard Catholic teaching?, and 2.) what is the standard Catholic teaching on "what happens to the dead?" I have seen conflicting reports/info and I'd like to know what they really believe.

I believe what I believe based on my understanding of Scripture and from discussing the topic with other Christians and listening to informed opinions. It's not an essential doctrine, just an interesting one.

[c968]

Ah! I didn't realize one can check more than one box! (Or so it appears...)

I believe the souls of the saved go right into the presence of God (absent from the body - present with the Lord). However, I believe we are awaiting the final trumpet when the righteous will be raised incorruptible (as concerns our bodies). :innocent:

The souls of the unsaved go to . . . . . hell . . . aka Hades.
The realm of all departed spirits being Sheol, but that to which the unrighteous souls are consigned being Hades, where they are in torments as in Luke 16 (The Rich Man). :flaming:

The unrighteous dead at the final judgment will be raised in an unglorified body to be cast into . . . hell . . . aka Ghehennah.

[spl_cadet]

:lmbo: Oh, the machinations Catholics have to keep up to support their doctrines...

Really? So correcting a misperception is a machination?

And I suspect that said uncle isn't exactly enjoying the beatific vision.

[sylas]

I voted for "only organic matter", but as is traditional I'd like to quibble about poll wording in further comments. :grin:

I don't like the word "only". Humans are no less amazing for being organic matter. Rather than say humans are "only" organic matter, I'd prefer to say that humans show just how amazing organic matter can be.

I also consider that there are aspects of humanity which cannot be easily described in terms of "organic matter". Consciousness, intelligence, emotions, courage, communication, insights, etc. The physical world is extremely complex, and defies simple description in terms of parts. Sometimes you have to speak at higher levels of description, of things which are not easily apparent at lower levels of parts and components; even though the higher levels are consequent on the lower.

I don't see any indication that these aspects require some additional substance, and (curiously) I see myself as solidly within traditions established by Christian and Jewish theology. I'm no dualist. I don't believe in a distinct spirit substance distinct from the physical body. I think of "spirit" as a verb rather than a noun, describing aspect of what we do, rather that describing a distinct thing which stands along aside and distinct from the physical.

Cheers -- Sylas

[elysian]

I voted for "only organic matter", but as is traditional I'd like to quibble about poll wording in further comments. :grin:

I don't like the word "only". Humans are no less amazing for being organic matter. Rather than say humans are "only" organic matter, I'd prefer to say that humans show just how amazing organic matter can be.

I also consider that there are aspects of humanity which cannot be easily described in terms of "organic matter". Consciousness, intelligence, emotions, courage, communication, insights, etc. The physical world is extremely complex, and defies simple description in terms of parts. Sometimes you have to speak at higher levels of description, of things which are not easily apparent at lower levels of parts and components; even though the higher levels are consequent on the lower.

I don't see any indication that these aspects require some additional substance, and (curiously) I see myself as solidly within traditions established by Christian and Jewish theology. I'm no dualist. I don't believe in a distinct spirit substance distinct from the physical body. I think of "spirit" as a verb rather than a noun, describing aspect of what we do, rather that describing a distinct thing which stands along aside and distinct from the physical.

Cheers -- Sylas

For me this is the mystery that Paul speaks of and that Handel voices as well- "though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." We know physical bodies decay and decompose, so does the person go blotto as the body turns to worm fodder or does God grant us new bodies? One way or another we have a body, but the difference is it the corruptible body we have here in this life or the incorruptible body in the life to come?

[Abigail]

For me this is the mystery that Paul speaks of and that Handel voices as well- "though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." Wasn'r it Job who said that line you quoted

[elysian]

Wasn'r it Job who said that line you quoted

Actually the exact quote I used was from Handel's Messiah, from "I Know That My Redeemer Liveth." (http://www.metrolyrics.com/lyrics/103170/Handel_George_Frideric/45._Air_For_Soprano:_I_Know_That_My_Redeemer_Liveth/) Yes, he did refer to Job 19:25-26

I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; (NIV)

I hate to say it but I always remember Handel's reference to worms, though worms aren't specifically mentioned in the NIV translation I usually use.

Messiah's libretto is full of Scriptural references and is one of my favorite works of sacred music- and I have sung this particular song many times which makes it memorable.

Paul refers to the perishable and imperishable bodies (1 Corinthians 15:35-58,)that our bodies do die and decay.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 suggests at least a temporary separation between body and spirit:

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it." (NIV)

Again we are back to the mystery Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54: how are we changed and when? We will have bodies but we will be changed meaning that we don't have the same body that will someday be worm food.