Ananel
June 9th 2004, 01:31 PM
Moderators: It is worth noting that I view myself as orthodox by the terms of the rules set up, and checked back three or so pages to see if this would be a repeated thread. If this belongs elsewhere and I'm mistaken in locating it, please move it to the proper location and inform me by post so that I may know where to send the debate.
In light of decisions from moderation, I would like to resume the debate on the subject of homosexuality in the Bible. However, to be quite honest, this is a massive debate, so I am going to request that we keep our discussions limited to these two verses in this thread. This keeps the thread in a manageable chunk of topics, so that we have more ability to center our discussion.
Please respect that request.
The verses in question:
1 Corinthians 6:9,
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders1 Timothy 1:10,
for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine Both verses above are quoted from the NIV. The words in question are bold.
Here are the verses in greek (Scrivener 1894)
1 Corinthians 6:9,
η ουκ οιδατε οτι αδικοι βασιλειαν θεου ου κληρονομησουσιν μη πλανασθε ουτε πορνοι ουτε ειδωλολατραι ουτε μοιχοι ουτε μαλακοι ουτε αρσενοκοιται1 Timothy 1:10,
10πορνοις αρσενοκοιταις ανδραποδισταις ψευσταις επιορκοις και ει τι ετερον τη υγιαινουση διδασκαλια αντικειταιμαλακοι is defined as effeminite, with perverse implications. The term is specifically related to catamite, towards pederasty. Male Prostitute is often considered too narrow of a definition, and it is thought that effeminite is better. The connotation may refer to the bottom partner of a homosexual relationship, but to state this so generically also seems a weak translation. Catamite seems strongest in translation.
αρσενοκοιται and its derivative in 1 Timothy are both compound words, derived from αρσεν (Man) and κοιτες (Verb referring to bed, sexual implications). The word does not appear prior to 1 Corinthians in the greek language. It is defined normally as homosexual, but Frederick, William and Danker note clearly that it refers more directly to a pederast, the 'top' partner in this specific relationship.
Also, the source of this definition is highly suspect. The Septuagint of Leviticus 20 includes the two words in the same location, and commentators have stated that Paul may have mashed the words together. However, all other uses listed by F, W and D (such as Eusebius and Theophonis's [sp?] Anthologies) seem to have the connotation of Pederast. The term clearly has an idiomatic meaning from its further usage, and we have no context in a list of sins to decide that it would not be used in similar fashion here.Add to this that if we simply take the root meanings, the definition of Adulterer in the NIV for 1 Timothy 1:10 would seem equally accurate.
http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html (http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html) contains a collection of additional information in it on the subject. I do not fully agree with Dale Martin, but I think he brings up several good points.
All in all, would it not be more accurate to translate 1 Corinthians 6:9 as,
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor catamites nor pederasts...And 1 Timothy 1 similarly?
(Edit: For reference, pederasty is a very complicated form of relationship common in Greecian society, even up to the time Paul writes to the Corinthians. It is a specified relationship in which a young man trades sexual favors with an older man in return for training and education. Male whore and pedophile does not describe the nuances of the relationship, as described by individuals such as Plato in his Symposium and other works. [Source-Nissinen, M. Homoeroticism in the Biblical World. Augsburg Fortress. Minneapolis, MN. 1998.])
In light of decisions from moderation, I would like to resume the debate on the subject of homosexuality in the Bible. However, to be quite honest, this is a massive debate, so I am going to request that we keep our discussions limited to these two verses in this thread. This keeps the thread in a manageable chunk of topics, so that we have more ability to center our discussion.
Please respect that request.
The verses in question:
1 Corinthians 6:9,
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders1 Timothy 1:10,
for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine Both verses above are quoted from the NIV. The words in question are bold.
Here are the verses in greek (Scrivener 1894)
1 Corinthians 6:9,
η ουκ οιδατε οτι αδικοι βασιλειαν θεου ου κληρονομησουσιν μη πλανασθε ουτε πορνοι ουτε ειδωλολατραι ουτε μοιχοι ουτε μαλακοι ουτε αρσενοκοιται1 Timothy 1:10,
10πορνοις αρσενοκοιταις ανδραποδισταις ψευσταις επιορκοις και ει τι ετερον τη υγιαινουση διδασκαλια αντικειταιμαλακοι is defined as effeminite, with perverse implications. The term is specifically related to catamite, towards pederasty. Male Prostitute is often considered too narrow of a definition, and it is thought that effeminite is better. The connotation may refer to the bottom partner of a homosexual relationship, but to state this so generically also seems a weak translation. Catamite seems strongest in translation.
αρσενοκοιται and its derivative in 1 Timothy are both compound words, derived from αρσεν (Man) and κοιτες (Verb referring to bed, sexual implications). The word does not appear prior to 1 Corinthians in the greek language. It is defined normally as homosexual, but Frederick, William and Danker note clearly that it refers more directly to a pederast, the 'top' partner in this specific relationship.
Also, the source of this definition is highly suspect. The Septuagint of Leviticus 20 includes the two words in the same location, and commentators have stated that Paul may have mashed the words together. However, all other uses listed by F, W and D (such as Eusebius and Theophonis's [sp?] Anthologies) seem to have the connotation of Pederast. The term clearly has an idiomatic meaning from its further usage, and we have no context in a list of sins to decide that it would not be used in similar fashion here.Add to this that if we simply take the root meanings, the definition of Adulterer in the NIV for 1 Timothy 1:10 would seem equally accurate.
http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html (http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html) contains a collection of additional information in it on the subject. I do not fully agree with Dale Martin, but I think he brings up several good points.
All in all, would it not be more accurate to translate 1 Corinthians 6:9 as,
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor catamites nor pederasts...And 1 Timothy 1 similarly?
(Edit: For reference, pederasty is a very complicated form of relationship common in Greecian society, even up to the time Paul writes to the Corinthians. It is a specified relationship in which a young man trades sexual favors with an older man in return for training and education. Male whore and pedophile does not describe the nuances of the relationship, as described by individuals such as Plato in his Symposium and other works. [Source-Nissinen, M. Homoeroticism in the Biblical World. Augsburg Fortress. Minneapolis, MN. 1998.])