Is Modern Praise Music Self-Centered?

[nomad7674]

I have been a major fan of modern worship music, and the current wave of bands coming out with worship-only albums or even worship-only careers has been to my great delight. I love SonicFlood (http://www.sonicflood.com/), MWS's Worship (http://music.lycos.com/artist/album.asp?QT=A&QW=michael+w.+smith&AN=Michael+W.+Smith&MID=62747&id=430056) Albums (http://music.lycos.com/artist/album.asp?QT=A&QW=michael+w.+smith&AN=Michael+W.+Smith&MID=62747&id=463397), and the WOW Worship (http://www.grassrootsmusic.com/artist/wowworship) series. (Please don't bother critiquing my taste in music. I know I have no taste - I just enjoy it.) I have been one of those in the church pushing for more worship choruses, over hymns, because I have felt they allow me to worship better. I have heard many arguments from those who dislike worship choruses (they are shallow, hymns contain deep theology, choruses lack historical perspective, etc.) but generally have not found the arguments to be compelling. After all, I don't reject hymns altogether, I just have preferred the worship music.

But recently I was listening to a Jeff Deyo (http://www.jeffdeyo.com/index2.html) CD and I was stricken by the number of times I, Me,or My was in the song. It started me thinking back to the many choruses popular in the church today (well my church today, anyway) and whether worship music has become more "me-centered" than "God-centered".

Consider:

Chorus:
I want to know You
I want to hear Your voice
I want to know You more
I want to touch You
I want to see Your face
I want to know You more

Lord, I give You my heart
I give You my soul
I live for You alone
Every breath that I take
Every moment I'm awake
Lord, have Your way in me


I love you Lord
And I lift my voice
To worship you
All my soul rejoice
Take joy my King
In what you hear
May it be a sweet, sweet sound
In your ear.

As the deer panteth for the water
So my soul longeth after you
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship you

You're my friend and you are my brother
Even though you are a king
And I love you more than any other
So much more than anything

You alone are my strength, my shield
To you alone may my spirit yield
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship you.

Now this is hardly a comprehensive listing, and that last one actually came - in part - from a Psalm (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS+42:1&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on). Still, it got me thinking.

Compare this with many of the classic hymns of the church:

A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing;
Our helper He, amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing:
For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.

Great is Thy faithfulness, O God my Father;
There is no shadow of turning with Thee;
Thou changest not, Thy compassions, they fail not;
As Thou hast been, Thou forever will be.

Then sings my soul my savior God to Thee
How great Thou art
How great Thou art
Then sings my soul my savior God to Thee
How great Thou art how great Thou art.

Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Now, obviously I have just chosen 4 worship songs and 4 hymns more or less at random (and I avoided the teaching hymns - like Onward Christian Soldiers, which are really preaching to the people and not to God at all). But the emphases I have added do seem to raise the question again: Are modern worship songs overly focussed on us rather than God? Should we be careful when handling the modern worship"movement" to keep it balanced by the ancient hymns of the church, no matter what our personal preferences.

In essence, :smile: have I been wrong in avoiding hymns for so long :smile: ?

I am not drawing a conclusion here, but rather interested in the reactions of other Christians on this site (though I don't mind comments from those of other faiths or non-theists). What do you think?

[robert65]

Interesting thoughts. :popcorn: I await the responses.

[Maxentius]

Now, obviously I have just chosen 4 worship songs and 4 hymns more or less at random (and I avoided the teaching hymns - like Onward Christian Soldiers, which are really preaching to the people and not to God at all). But the emphases I have added do seem to raise the question again: Are modern worship songs overly focussed on us rather than God? Should we be careful when handling the modern worship"movement" to keep it balanced by the ancient hymns of the church, no matter what our personal preferences.

In essence, :smile: have I been wrong in avoiding hymns for so long :smile: ?

I am not drawing a conclusion here, but rather interested in the reactions of other Christians on this site (though I don't mind comments from those of other faiths or non-theists). What do you think?

I don't think the choice is between a hymn focused on ourselves and one focused on God. As you pointed out, the Psalm is basically about the speaker.

I also think it is possible to write a contemporary hymn with the focus on God instead of one's self. The music or arraingements are not inherently wrong.

What I do think is that the over all context in many churches is one centered on one's self. Jesus is one's "persaonal" Lord and Savior--almost like a buddy e.g. "And he walks with me, and he talks with me, and he tells me I am his own....". ) Here, Jesus is portrayed almost like a lover. :huh: Or maybe one has one's own particular spiritual gifts that no one else has.

I believe it is a product of our American and Western mind set, where our individuality is paramount. We are each unique and to attenuate that uniquness is a greeat sin. Thus we hear people say "I go to a non-demoninational church..." when it is a denomination if it has certain beliefs one has to subscribe to. this supposedly shows the individual is not subserviebt to any organization or institution but only to God. All these things and more are an outgrowth of "radical individualism". This does not mean that all those who sing or like certainm hymns are radical individualists. :smile: This also does not mean that such songs are inherently wrong. It matters what the over all context is. Certainly we are allowed to praise God for what he has done for us and our emotional reaction to that? It should not be the focus of worship though. That should focus on our praise to God for his goodness, petition to God for forgiveness of sins and a thanksgiving for his forgiveness.

[Aseity]

>>>Re: Is Modern Praise Music Self-Centered?<<<

Much of it is and has been for a long time.

It is mostly all about me me me my my my I I I, anthropocentric, man-centered rather than theocentric, God centered.

Hillsong of Australia is a classic example and is making a fortune from this feely good stuff and Darlene Zschech and Hillsong are going to be on with the false teachers/heretics Joyce Meyer and oneness pentecostalist T D Jakes and seeker sensitive Bill Hybels and Willowcreek in about three months and led the people into an altered state of conciousness with this stuff!!! http://www.darlenezschech.com/pages/default.asp?agid=3 The people will sway back and forth dancing etc eyes closed arms raised with cheesey smiles on their faces. Sure, there will be some genuine Christians there, but most of them will be utterly deceived. When the people have been whipped into the right state of mind with the songs and music, the false teachers will pump in as much error and leaven as they can. Sad.


Sola Scriptura:

The Erosion of Authority

Scripture alone is the inerrant rule of the church's life, but the evangelical church today has separated Scripture from its authoritative function. In practice, the church is guided, far too often, by the culture. Therapeutic technique, marketing strategies, and the beat of the entertainment world often have far more to say about what the church wants, how it functions and what it offers, than does the Word of God. Pastors have neglected their rightful oversight of worship, >>>including the doctrinal content of the music.<<< As biblical authority has been abandoned in practice, as its truths have faded from Christian consciousness, and as its doctrines have lost their saliency, the church has been increasingly emptied of its integrity, moral authority and direction.

Rather than adapting Christian faith to satisfy the felt needs of consumers, we must proclaim the law as the only measure of true righteousness and the gospel as the only announcement of saving truth. Biblical truth is indispensable to the church's understanding, nurture and discipline.

Scripture must take us beyond our perceived needs to our real needs and liberate us from seeing ourselves through the seductive images, cliches, promises and priorities of mass culture. It is only in the light of God's truth that we understand ourselves aright and see God's provision for our need. The Bible, therefore, must be taught and preached in the church. Sermons must be expositions of the Bible and its teachings, not expressions of the preacher's opinions or the ideas of the age. We must settle for nothing less than what God has given.

The work of the Holy Spirit in personal experience cannot be disengaged from Scripture. The Spirit does not speak in ways that are independent of Scripture. Apart from Scripture we would never have known of God's grace in Christ. The biblical Word, rather than spiritual experience, is the test of truth.

THESIS ONE: SOLA SCRIPTURA

We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture to be the sole source of written divine revelation,which alone can bind the conscience. The Bible alone teaches all that is necessary for our salvation from sin and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured.

We deny that any creed, council or individual may bind a Christian's conscience, that the Holy Spirit speaks independently of or contrary to what is set forth in the Bible, or that personal spiritual experience can ever be a vehicle of revelation.

From The Cambridge Declaration of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals
http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086|CHID560462|CIID1411364,00.html


Call For Reformation in the Contemporary Christian Music Industry

--Steven John Camp
Christian Music Recording Artist

Those of us who are privileged to represent our Lord Jesus Christ in the arts should be galvanized by mission, not by ambition; by mandate, not by accolades; by love for the Master, not by the allurements of this world.

Out of love and zeal for Biblical truth and the desire to bring it to light, I come to you, brethren, burdened and broken over the current state of Christian music. I come--not out of a heart of condemnation, but out of convictions immersed in tears as one in desperate need daily of our Lord's grace to be conformed to His image. I come aware of the depravity from which I have been saved and that my heart, apart from the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, is desperately wicked and eternally sick. Early in my own musical journey I wrote songs that neither represented good music or precise theology. My motives were vitiated; my actions were not godly; and my lips were unclean. The thirst for prominence and position made my heart prideful, judgmental and callused. But the Lord, out of His infinite grace and otherworldly love, broke me with His chastening hand to bring true repentance in my own life--and it's that life of repentance, which is my greatest desire and my greatest failing. It is out of the crucible of those experiences that I am driven to speak with conviction on these issues.

This document is a call to Reformation-a clarion call to recover Biblical Christianity in the arts. Music is a powerful tool from the Lord Jesus to His church intended for worship, praise, encouragement, edification, evangelism, teaching, admonishing. And exhorting God's people to holiness--with always our chief aim "to glorify God and worship Him forever." But beloved, the serpentine foe of compromise has invaded the camp through years of specious living, skewed doctrine and most recently secular ownership of Christian music ministries. While I assert this, I recognize that there are godly men and women who love the Lord that work for these companies and record for these companies, but that's not the issue here. The crux of the matter is that the overall nature of our industry has dramatically shifted. The Apostle Paul warns... "It takes only a little leaven to leaven the whole lump." (1 Corinthians 5:6) When sin is tolerated it ultimately permeates and corrupts the entire church. What is pure today will inevitably be polluted tomorrow if we do not "purge out the old leaven..." (Ibid. 5:7) In the past several years there has been a non-so-subtle drifting away from Christocentric music to an anthropocentric music. Sadly this has resulted in various visible manifestations of spiritual sedition-- where currently, the CCMI finds itself on a slippery slope sliding away at accelerated speeds from the Savior, the Scriptures and the church.
http://www.worship.com/steve_camp_107_theses.htm

[Aseity]

Interesting thoughts. :popcorn: I await the responses.


Glossary of Church Growth & Contemporary Christian Music
by Leonard Payton

Prune City, California, is an unfortunate town devoid of character. It tripled in size between 1965 and 1985. At that time, a plague of building contractors descended upon Prune City and immediately there were five thousand identical houses, a KMart, three supermarkets, five strip shopping centers, countless metal and tilt-up buildings, nine gas stations, eleven fast food restaurants, and five doughnut shops.

Naturally, the churches grew, erecting new sanctuaries in earth tones. They had the sharp angles of "modern" architecture, sanctuaries matching the neo-orthodox, stick-figure style of the "Good News To Modern Man Bible." Both the buildings and the trendy Bible version were dated before they were completed.

Now the boom is over in Prune City. Church attendance is lackluster and graying. The only growing church is Rivers of Living Refreshment Christian Fellowship which is only five years old and already the largest congregation in town. As you can imagine, anxiety has been mounting in the established churches, precipitating the strange tale I am about to tell.

This past February, unbeknownst to one another, the governing bodies of several local congregations took action on their stagnating church attendance. These congregations included Prune City Evangelical Free, First Baptist, Faith Lutheran, Westminster Presbyterian, Freeway Wesleyan, and, Prune City Covenant. The proceedings were better than any side show. But that's a story for another time. What was so singular was that they all changed their names to "Plum Ridge Community Church."

They also implemented identical changes during the second week of March. They painted the inside of their sanctuaries teal and covered the pews with thick, mauve padding. They placed a large overhead screen right up front where the cross had been. On either side of the screen were banners in warm tones with striking calligraphy, saying, "He is Risen!" They replaced their monolithic pulpits with stream-lined, clear plexi-glass fixtures designed to make the pastor "transparent."

Beyond these cosmetic changes, the Prune City churches placed the worship music into the hands of younger people who bought praise choruses from the same three companies and ordered overhead slides from the same magazine advertisement. And, of course, they shoved the organ off into a corner to make room for the worship band. (I have to tell you that the drummer had no idea of what to do with "Wonderful, the matchless grace of Jesus" sandwiched between "Majesty" and "As the Deer.") They also had a skit about legalism and Christian liberty.

Well, as you can imagine, it was a jarring experience for Fred and Ethel when they showed up the second Sunday of March. The place smelled, looked, and felt different. Was it a dream or perhaps a nightmare? As the service proceeded, Ethel examined the pastor's face through her trifocals concluding that, yes, this was the same man. He even had the same voice but when he used words she thought she knew, she discovered that even the meanings, like the building, had changed.

The following glossary is intended as a reference work for hapless Freds and Ethels whose churches have gone through a sudden metamorphosis. It is also intended for people, who, when moving, find that the labels "Lutheran," "Baptist," or "Presbyterian," are not a guarantee of anything.

The glossary is not exhaustive, nor does it have the clear-eyed distance of time. No doubt, future readers of church history will smile condescendingly as they read about the Plum Ridge phenomenon just as we chuckle about evangelists barking like dogs in the nineteenth century, or traveling ministers selling forgiveness of sins in the sixteenth century.


ACCOMPANIMENT TRACK - A means of momentarily transforming ordinary folks into Christian Artists.

AWESOME - An adjective encapsulating the attributes of God which are in bad form to mention.

BOOMERS - The most important Demographic group; people born between 1945 and l961.

BUSTERS - The next most important Demographic group; people born after 1961; anatomically human, but that is as far as it goes; Clinton's staff.

C.C.L.I. - an organization in Portland, which, for an annual fee, takes care of copyright hassles so that we can sing all our favorite songs by all our favorite Christian Artists.

CELEBRATION - A Seeker Friendly service where everything is relevant and the music is joyous.

CHRISTIAN ARTIST - A person who sings and whose recordings sell in large quantities.

COMMUNITY CHURCH - A congregation which is part of a larger denomination or conference, but which is ashamed of that denomination's name.

CONFESSION - Not Seeker Friendly.

CONTEMPORARY - Anything since 1960, although music from 1970 on is more contemporary.

DEMOGRAPHICS - A management tool useful for paring down "the uttermost part of the earth" to attainable units.

DRAMA SKETCH - A five minute soap opera or sitcom with Christian words.

DRUMS - A musical instrument useful for making the worship more joyous.

EXCELLENCE - The favorite style of music performed at the level of a Christian artist.

GOOD OLD HYMN - Any congregational song composed between 1850 and 1950, in a style fitting for the circus, reminding us of our parents' and grandparents' hokey churches. A verse of one of these songs should be sung periodically for wholesome sentimental value, similar to baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet.

GREAT OLD HYMNS - "A Mighty Fortress," "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name," and "Crown Him With Many Crowns."

HE - With a large case "H" — God.

HYMNAL - Cumbersome relic of a bygone age.

INTEGRITY - A brand name.

JOYOUS - Music at 120 quarter notes per minute with back beats on beats two and four so that the congregation can clap (and if it is especially joyous, dance). Truly joyous music will not have more than four or five chords as that would distract from the joy. It is especially joyous if drums are present.

LAW OF GOD - Get a clue! Definitely not Seeker Friendly.

LIGHTS - That which gives a luster of midday to objects up front. The congregation should not be well lit. That is not Seeker friendly. And since the Seeker is only accustomed to being with large groups of people at a theater, it would be stressful for him if his expressions could be seen by others.

LITURGY - A suspicious word, definitely not Seeker Sensitive.

LORD - The only acceptable name for God aside from "You" and "He."

MARANATHA - A brand name.

MEDLEY - A verse of a Good Old Hymn sandwiched between contemporary praise songs to improve the palatability of the Good Old Hymn.

MUSIC - The most strategic conveyance of Spirit-Filledness.

NEEDS - The hot button of the Seeker.

ORGAN - An unfortunate musical instrument to be avoided because it evokes a sense of distance from God. Like the accordion (use an accordion, go to jail); use an organ, fail to reach Seekers.

OVERHEAD - An appropriate object of genuflection. For maximum relevance, the overhead should be placed where the Cross was.

PROGRAM DIRECTOR - The resident liturgical manager.

RELEVANCE - That which is most likely to capture affectionate attention.

SEEKER - a person, not a part of the church, whose tastes are, nonetheless, the most important.

SEEKER FRIENDLY - Style decisions more closely keyed to the tastes of the Seeker than in a Seeker Sensitive service.

SEEKER SENSITIVE - Anything designed around the tastes of a Seeker but intended to remain acceptable to the non-Seeker.

SEQUENCER - A piece of computer hardware designed to compensate for deficient musicianship

SIN - Not Seeker friendly.

SOUND ENGINEER - The most crucial participant in the worship service.

SPECIAL MUSIC - That portion of the service when an ordinary person, with the help of an Accompaniment Track is momentarily transformed into a Christian artist.

SPIRIT-FILLED - Any style of music or speech which feels good

SPIRIT-LED - Unplanned.

STYLE - there are really only two styles; traditional and contemporary.

SWEET - The most common adjective to describe Jesus.

SYNTHESIZER - A musical instrument suitable for use in a Worship Band with a Christian Artist.

THE WORSHIP - Congregational singing

THEOLOGY - A necessary evil, something like spinach or Pepto Bismol.

TRADITIONAL - All music composed before 1960.

VINEYARD - Where you enter into life in Jesus' name by giving him all your tears and sadness as well as all your years of pain .

VISION STATEMENT - A Seeker Friendly version of the bylaws.

VULNERABILITY - A worship leader's willingness to dip anecdotally into his own experiences, especially those which make him look like a buffoon. Other ways of displaying vulnerability are the closing of eyes, the raising of hands, and the production of tears.

WORD - A brand name.

WORSHIP BAND - Any collection of guitarists, drummers, synthesizer players, and persons holding microphones. All of them wish they were involved with a Christian artist. As a general principle, it is unseemly for anyone over the age of forty-nine to hold a microphone. Other instruments may be used, although the accordion is categorically excluded.

WORSHIP LEADER - A person similar to a Christian Artist but who remains active in a local congregation rather than moving to Los Angeles, Nashville, Waco, or Mobile, in order to become a Christian artist.

WORSHIPFUL - Soft and slow. It is especially worshipful if the words are few and the eyes are closed. Drums should be avoided. Music with more than three chords will not be worshipful.

YOU - With a LARGE case "Y" — God.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Author

Dr. Leonard Payton has served as Chief Musician at Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Austin, Texas, since January 1996. He received his M.A. and Ph.D. from the University of California, San Diego, and has done advanced study in Germany. He contributed to The Coming Evangelical Crisis (Moody, 1996), and is a frequent contributor of both reviews and articles to Reformation & Revival Journal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.the-highway.com/Music_Glossary.html

[markporter]

yup, modern praise music is more centred on the self than the old hymns. But I'm not sure this is at all a bad thing - we have moved from singing theological truths about God to singing love songs to him, speaking to him rather than about him. Of course we need a balance, both can be important and we can lean far too far in a self-centred direction. I seem to remember someone quoting Mike Pilivachi of soul survivor in one sermon talking about the chorus of light of the world

here I am to worship, here I am to bow down, oh isn't it a good thing I'm here Lord, whatever would you do without me....

But it depends how you focus on the song itself, you can focus on it that way, or you can focus on God and recognise that this is your response to him.

And if we look at the psalms as a model, an awful lot seems to be about the situation the psalmist is in and what's going on inside them...

[themuzicman]

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound...
that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I am found
Was blind, but now I see. :doh:

[themuzicman]

Oh, there's LOTS where that came from, too.. (All from the Psalter Hymnal, BTW)

Arise, my soul, arise.. V.1

Arise, my soul, arise; shake off thy guilty fears;
The bleeding sacrifice in my behalf appears:
Before the throne my surety stands,
Before the throne my surety stands,
My name is written on His hands.

Text: Charles Wesley, 1742
Music: Lewis Edison, 1782


Be not dismayed whate’er betide,
God will take care of you;
Beneath His wings of love abide,
God will take care of you.

Refrain
God will take care of you,
Through every day, over all the way;
He will take care of you,
God will take care of you.

Through days of toil when heart doth fail,
God will take care of you;
When dangers fierce your path assail,
God will take care of you.

Refrain

All you may need He will provide,
God will take care of you;
Nothing you ask will be denied,
God will take care of you.

Text: Civilia D. Martin, 1904
Music: W. Stillman Martin, 1904


I know not why God’s wondrous grace
To me He hath made known,
Nor why, unworthy, Christ in love
Redeemed me for His own.

Refrain
But I know Whom I have believèd,
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I’ve committed
Unto Him against that day.


Text: Daniel W. Whittle, 1883
Music: James McGranahan, 1883


All to Jesus, I surrender;
All to Him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust Him,
In His presence daily live.

Refrain
I surrender all, I surrender all,
All to Thee, my blessèd Savior,
I surrender all.

All to Jesus Isurrender;
Humbly at His feet I bow,
Worldly pleasures all forsaken;
Take me, Jesus, take me now.

Refrain

All to Jesus, I surrender;
Make me, Savior, wholly Thine;
Let mefeel the Holy Spirit,
Truly know that Thou art mine.

Refrain

All to Jesus, I surrender;
Lord, I give myself to Thee;
Fill me with Thy love and power;
Let Thy blessing fall on me.

Refrain

All to Jesus I surrender;
Now I feel the sacred flame.
O the joy of full salvation!
Glory, glory, to His Name!

Text: Judson W. VanDeVenter, 1896
Music: Winfield S. Weeden, 1896

[nomad7674]

Oh, there's LOTS where that came from, too.. (All from the Psalter Hymnal, BTW)

True. I did choose 4 of each at random (well, not totally random - the first four of each I thought of which probably were influenced by subconscious factors :wink:). Still, on balance, do you think the average worship song of our time is qualitatively different from the average worship song of past times?

[Calvinist4Him]

Yes, most modern praise music is self-centered...rather than God-centered. Of course there are exceptions, but as a general "rule", most modern praise music is self-centered, and IMHO, self-centered praise IS dangerous, and mis-leading.

It is also unhealthy for us to focus on ourselves....it will literally dry a Christian up.

For people like me, the content of the praise and worship is yet another issue which must be weighed when looking for a home Church...

I attribute self-centered "praise" to autonomy mixed with apathy (lukewarmness of thoughts like "I don't want to offend anyone"), lust (for fame and power and acceptance), and greed (money involved in the business of praise and worship music, if people are buying it...).

[Aseity]

Amazing grace! (how sweet the sound)
That sav'd a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev'd;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ'd!

Thro' many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
'Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis'd good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call'd me here below,
Will be forever mine.

[brother vinny]

Creed
By Rich Mullins and Beaker (adapted from the Apostle's Creed)


I believe in God the Father almighty
Maker of Heaven and Maker of Earth
And in Jesus Christ
His only begotten Son, our Lord
He was conceived by the Holy Spirit
Born of the virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
He was crucified and dead and buried

Chorus:
And I believe that what I believe
Is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me
It is the very truth of God and not
The invention of any man

I believe that He who suffered
Was Crucified, buried and dead
He descended into hell and
On the third day he rose again
He ascended into Heaven where
He sits at God's mighty right hand
I believe that He's returning to
Judge the quick and the dead
Of the sons of men

Repeat chorus

I believe in God the Father almighty
Maker of Heaven and Maker of Earth
And in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, our Lord
I believe in the Holy Spirit
One Holy Church, the communion of Saints,
The forgiveness of sins
I believe in the resurrection
I believe in a life that never ends

Repeat chorus

[brother vinny]

Awesome God
By Rich Mullins

When He rolls up His sleeves
He ain't just putting on the ritz
(Our God is an awesome God)

There's thunder in His footsteps
And lightning in His fists
(Our God is an awesome God)

And the Lord wasn't joking when He kicked 'em out of Eden
It wasn't for no reason that He shed His blood
His return is very close and so you better be believing that
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

And when the sky was starless
In the void of the night
(Our God is an awesome God)

He spoke into the darkness
And created the light
(Our God is an awesome God)

Judgement and wrath He poured out on Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that we have not too quickly forgotten that
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God (Our God is an awesome God)
He reigns from heaven above (He reigns from heaven above)
With wisdom, power, and love (With wisdom, power, and love)
Our God is an awesome God
Our God is an awesome God
Our God is an awesome God


Just for contrast. Of the two songs I posted, one uses the "I" pronoun repeatedly-- in words written about 1900 years ago or so. The other uses the "I" pronoun but once, in the hopes that the brethren has kept focus on God's awesome power.

Aseity's thesis may have some merit, but there's always going to be exceptions.

[c968]

I love much of the music in contemporary. But I also whole heartedly agree with the sentiments of Nomad 7674 and Maxentius about the words of many songs. I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The City on a Hill series has some awesome worship songs. Our Great God on the second CD is my favorite.
But also notice this powerful contemporary song from Caedmon's Call:

AWAKE MY SOUL

The image of God invisible, the first born of all life
Before and within, He holds it all in, One name, one faith, one Christ

(chorus) No one is good enough to save himself
Awake my soul tonight, to boast nothing else

I trust no other source or name, nowhere else can I hide
This grace gives me fear, and this grace draws me near
And all that it asks it provides

No seam in this garment, all my rags to hide
No less than your love, for Jesus is mine

When I stand on the edges of Jordan
With the saints and the angels beside
When my body is healed, and the glory revealed
Still I can boast only Christ

Copyright 2002 Same Old Dress Music, by Sandra Mc Cracken

Now if only THAT kind of contemporary stuff would catch on

[markporter]

Awesome God
By Rich Mullins

When He rolls up His sleeves
He ain't just putting on the ritz
(Our God is an awesome God)

There's thunder in His footsteps
And lightning in His fists
(Our God is an awesome God)

And the Lord wasn't joking when He kicked 'em out of Eden
It wasn't for no reason that He shed His blood
His return is very close and so you better be believing that
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

And when the sky was starless
In the void of the night
(Our God is an awesome God)

He spoke into the darkness
And created the light
(Our God is an awesome God)

Judgement and wrath He poured out on Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that we have not too quickly forgotten that
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God (Our God is an awesome God)
He reigns from heaven above (He reigns from heaven above)
With wisdom, power, and love (With wisdom, power, and love)
Our God is an awesome God
Our God is an awesome God
Our God is an awesome God


Just for contrast. Of the two songs I posted, one uses the "I" pronoun repeatedly-- in words written about 1900 years ago or so. The other uses the "I" pronoun but once, in the hopes that the brethren has kept focus on God's awesome power.

Aseity's thesis may have some merit, but there's always going to be exceptions. Ah yes...but notice it's all about our God :tongue:

[markporter]

I love much of the music in contemporary. But I also whole heartedly agree with the sentiments of Nomad 7674 and Maxentius about the words of many songs. I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The City on a Hill series has some awesome worship songs. Our Great God on the second CD is my favorite.
But also notice this powerful contemporary song from Caedmon's Call:

AWAKE MY SOUL

The image of God invisible, the first born of all life
Before and within, He holds it all in, One name, one faith, one Christ

(chorus) No one is good enough to save himself
Awake my soul tonight, to boast nothing else

I trust no other source or name, nowhere else can I hide
This grace gives me fear, and this grace draws me near
And all that it asks it provides

No seam in this garment, all my rags to hide
No less than your love, for Jesus is mine

When I stand on the edges of Jordan
With the saints and the angels beside
When my body is healed, and the glory revealed
Still I can boast only Christ

Copyright 2002 Same Old Dress Music, by Sandra Mc Cracken

Now if only THAT kind of contemporary stuff would catch on
I think there actually is quite a bit of that type of stuff catching on

[brother vinny]

Ah yes...but notice it's all about our God :tongue:

Well, then, it's not centered on the self, but on the collective. A functioning church should run like a well-honeyed beehive, don't ya know, like the ones those good folks in Salt Lake City have. :rock:

Seriously, though, I don't think use of the "I" pronoun is wrong for praise and worship songs in church, in and of itself. God calls individuals into relationship with Him, so it is expected that, when one writes a hymn, it speaks of the experience of entering into this relationship from the human perspective:

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall lack nothing.

[AcousticJS]

Seriously, though, I don't think use of the "I" pronoun is wrong for praise and worship songs in church, in and of itself. God calls individuals into relationship with Him, so it is expected that, when one writes a hymn, it speaks of the experience of entering into this relationship from the human perspective:

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall lack nothing.

Nice! :thumb:

BV has just said what I couldn't work up the energy to try and say. It's not that it's wrong to use the personal pronoun in worship, or even the corporate pronoun ("we", "our" and so on). If we are only using songs that are basically our reflections and feelings, then an imbalance exists that needs correcting. But if there is a balance between songs that declare truth in both objective and subjective ways, then I don't see a problem. Personally, I tend towards emphasising the objective truth, and get a bit bored of singing about my feelings, but it would also be wrong of me to never say to God "I'm amazed at you!!!"

[luv1another]

does it matter what type of Christian music you like? or how you worship God?
I believe worship is a personal thing something between you and God.
I don't care what others think about how I worship or with what type of music... I have a huge range of music I like and some of Hillsongs Australia are my favourites.
I think people should worship God with whatever type of Christian worship and praise music draws them closer to him and in awe of him.
God made each of us as indiviuals... he doesn't want us to stay in boxes... he created us to create heck adam created the names of the animals.
thats why there are so many diffrent types of churches... because people worship God diffrently.... who are we to judge who is going to heaven or hell, especially by what music they listen too.
by the way we judge others we too will be judged.

David danced in the street and his wife was embaressed and didn't want to know him he had instruments plaing too..... yet God was pleased.... I bet if some people were there watching they too would have judged david and said he was going to hell because of what he did.... yet God was pleased.

I don't believe the music is that important to God as to which Christian band etc your listening to Its all about YOUR heart towards him... your love for others.

If you can't love the people around you how can you claim to love God?

I believe we should go to a church that has the type of music we like( as long as that music is drawing you closer to God) as well as sound biblical teaching.

modern worship songs are like any songs from the past... a lot come from the person who writes thems heart some through divine help and inspiration... if they have a heart for God their song is about trying to express that in the best way they can... just as the psalmists or hymn writers did.

[nomad7674]

Then there are those those hymns like this one, which are definitely God-centered in word use, but seem like may it is really praising the works of human hands.

God of Concrete
(Frederick R.C. Clarke and Richard Granville Jones) (from The Hymn Book of the Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church of Canada (1971 edition))

God of concrete, God of steel,
God of piston and of wheel,
God of pylon, God of steam,
God of girder and of beam,
God of atom, God of mine:
all the world of power is thine.
Lord of cable, Lord of rail,
Lord of freeway and of mail,
Lord of rocket and of flight,
Lord of soaring satellite,
Lord of lightning?s flashing line:
all the world of speed is thine.

This is a good discussion, so far. Let's keep it up! Anyone here from a church which will only sing songs which are direct quotes from scripture? I visited one of those once, and the pastor believed that singing anything else was wrong. I disagreed, but found his perspective to be philosophically interesting.

[Jezz]

What bugs me more than the lyrics of songs more often is the way in that they are performed. Or that they are "performed" at all. Hymns/songs of worship should not be "performed" by musicians for our entertainment - rather, they should be accompanying us as we sing in worship of God.

Often when I go to these contemporary-style worship services, they have the band up the front. They are positioned in front of the altar - in front of the crucifix, the Bible, the elements (if communion is being celebrated), and with their backs turned to all of this. All of these things that should be the focus of worship, they turn their backs on - positioning themselves so that the congregation's focus is on them and not on the holy things of God.

Moreover, the musicians typically aren't merely accompanying, they are performing - raising their hands in the air, looking skyward, having their eyes closed, etc. Now, I don't find anything wrong with this per se, as this can be a valid form of worship. But I can't help but feel that many who act in this way are not really doing so as a way of worship, but as a way of self-glorification. Deep down, what they are really saying is: "Look everyone! Look at how involved I am getting in this song, this music! Look at me and at how I am worshipping so much better than the average person who doesn't do these things!" I can't see into a person's heart with any degree of clarity, so I am reluctant to judge people on this - they might genuinely be doing it as a form of praise and worship for God. I think the acid test would be for them to stop and ask this question: If they were not at the front, but at the back so that noone could see them - would they still be behaving in that manner?

Another practice that I find dubious is that of vocal accompaniment. Many times I have been to these services to see three or four singers all miked up and singing at the one time - sometimes not even harmonies. What purpose does this serve? Is the aim of the band to accompany the congregation as they worship God together in song? Or are the singers trying to show off their lovely singing voices? I think sometimes there is a place for vocal accompaniment (eg, when it is a new song that the congregation is not familiar with, and needs someone to lead them until they have picked up the tune) - but often I think it is superfluous and unnecessary, and is a further temptation for singers to treat it as a chance to perform.

I think for these reasons, it is better not to have the band out the front. They should be at the back, so that they are not the main focus of the service, but so that God is (represented on the altar by the crucifix, the Word and the Sacraments). This will remove the barrier for the congregation so that their attention is drawn from God to the band, and it will also remove the temptation for the band to start "performing" instead of "accompanying in worship".

[luv1another]

Jezz sorry this is going to be rushed I have to go and get kids from school but...
first off have you been around any worship teams?
I am involved with my churches worship team... I can tell you for a fact it is not like you suggest these people are like.... they are there because they love music and love using their talents and gifts to lead people into worship of God.
I admit yes there are some people who are up there for the lime light in other churches I have been to... but I can tell you the people in my churches worship team are sincere when they are not up front they are the same as they are up front... I have seen them when they have sundays off ... it's not a put on.... the worship leader is constantly drawing our focus to Jesus in fact his favourite thing is to tell himself that Satan was the worship leader in heaven before he got prideful... he keeps that as a reminder not to become prideful and focus worship on God not himself.
I would say out of the 27 people in the worship team maybe 1 person is up there to be seen but I have even seen their heart changing and their focus shifting.

as for the team being up front... when Gods people went to war in the bible who did God tell them to send in first? yep the worship team (musicians) I think being up front is appropriatte the team is there to lead us into worship and spiritual battle... the worship team are the ones who often come under attack from satan too.

anyway sorry I have to go now or I will be late GBU

[One Bad Pig]

But recently I was listening to a Jeff Deyo (http://www.jeffdeyo.com/index2.html) CD and I was stricken by the number of times I, Me,or My was in the song. It started me thinking back to the many choruses popular in the church today (well my church today, anyway) and whether worship music has become more "me-centered" than "God-centered".

In part, the "me-centered" stuff comes from our individualist society. It isn't a bad thing, as long as the lyrics are putting God above self.

Yes, many praise & worship choruses are shallow and musically mediocre. I think if you were alive 200 years ago, you'd say the same about hymns. The difference is that the poor hymns have been culled from circulation; there hasn't been time for the culling process to get rid of much of the dross. Isaac Watts wrote his hymns because he thought the current hymns were boring, and was challenged to write better ones.

People need to pay attention to what they're singing. When you sing "I surrender all", you'd better mean it. There are some choruses today that I cannot in good conscience sing. "In all I do, I honor You.". Nobody does that. It's not possible in this fallen world of ours.

Sorry for the disjointedness, folks. I'm up too late.

[Penguin]

Are modern worship songs overly focussed on us rather than God? Should we be careful when handling the modern worship"movement" to keep it balanced by the ancient hymns of the church, no matter what our personal preferences?

In essence, have I been wrong in avoiding hymns for so long?
Nomad, I think you already know the answer. :smile:

There are some good modern worship songs and there are some good "ancient" worship songs. We should sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Some psalms bear close resemblence to modern worship choruses. And of course, hymns are hymns. I don't understand why it always seems to be a battle between the two, as if it's a war between choruses and hymns. For crying out loud, even hymns have choruses!

On one level...

The lyrics are extremely important. There does seem to be a significant amout of "I, me, I, me, I, me.." in the genre of modern worship songs. I've found myself singing words such as "I will lift up my hands and I will sing praises (repeated 562 times or so)." After a while, I start imagining God telling me, "So are you actually going to do it or are you just going to keep singing about how you will do it?" At that point I wonder, if I'm saying I will sing praises, blah blah blah, etc, then I should do it! So how do I? Well, for starters, I quit singing about me and my actions, and I start glorifying God. I describe what He does, how He is great and awesome, what He is to us, etc. But like I said, there are some modern worship songs with those kind of lyrics to them, and plenty of hymns like that too.

On another level...

As Jezz started to go into, it's about the performance, the setting, the (keyword) experience. So much focus is on the experience in modern worship services, and if I may call them, concerts. The thousands of dollars worth of sounds equipment, the amps, the wiring, the lighting, the staging, and on and on. The goal of many worship teams is to provide the environment for a good worship experience. And they accomplish this by practice, by tuned instruments, by constant attention to the sounds board, and so on. Some of the buildings where these services are done are even designed for the best acoustic advantage to please the human ear and enhance the inspirational, aesthetic experience.

So what's wrong with that?

The major defect in that is the targeted audience. Newsflash, it's not God. And people aren't afraid to admit it. I've heard people say after the service, "Wow, that was an awesome worship experience! The singers were in tune, the drummer didn't miss a beat. I loved it!" and so on. But who should undergo the experience? Who should feel uplifted and blessed at the end of the worship service? Not us, but God! If anyone deserves to experience the worship, it's God. Drop the notion that the sound must be pleasing to our ears. God (and only God) should be the target audience in Christian worship. Anything else is idolatry.

[Penguin]

People need to pay attention to what they're singing. When you sing "I surrender all", you'd better mean it. There are some choruses today that I cannot in good conscience sing. "In all I do, I honor You.". Nobody does that. It's not possible in this fallen world of ours.
:hehe: I hear you. I usually skip over those lines, or else I would be lying to God. Plus, singing/boasting about how great I am at honoring God is the opposite of God-worship.

Then sings my soul...
How great I art, how great I art! :doh:

[kafka]

what a great thread, how could I have missed it...

Nomad, I noticed a lot of the initial worship songs you listed that there were a a lot of "I"s

I want to know You
I want to hear Your voice
I want to know You more
I want to touch You
I want to see Your face
I want to know You more

heres what I see when i read it. :tongue:

I want to know You
I want to hear Your voice
I want to know You more
I want to touch You
I want to see Your face
I want to know You more

When i pick songs for congregational worship "Me me me" songs are thrown right out but "I to you" songs are alright. I believe it was Louis Giglio who said that If you want to know about the heart of a man then take a look at the pronouns that consume him...

One of the things that drives me nuts is the whole Jabez Christian culture which declares that it is okay to ask God for creature comforts and "expanding your land" but we tend to glaze over the the fact that as it comes to us it shoud go right back out to those who need it more.

[Aseity]

does it matter what type of Christian music you like? or how you worship God?




Of course it matters, ABSOLUTELY.

We are to worship God in spirit and truth.

Much of todays so called Christian music is man centered and an unpleasent clanging, din, beat, boom, clamour, drum, hammer, pound, repeat, ring, thunder, bruit, clash, clatter, crash, hubbub, bullabaloo, hurly-burly, noise, outcry, racket, row, shout, uproar, unto God who is Holy. God is a consumming fire and He is angry with the wicked every day. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian pastor or musician or singer or whatever, means that they are living holy lives unto God and that they are even Christian!

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28171

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28169

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28170

I have just seen that you have been checking these threads out. Good!

And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "I adjure you by the Jesus, whom Paul proclaims." Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this. But the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?" And the man in whom was the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. And this became known to all the residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks. And fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled. Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices. And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord continued to increase and prevail mightily.

I will *NOT* have a "Hillsong" book or CD in my home. If I found one in my home I would throw it in the fire.

Soli Deo Gloria

Aseity

[themuzicman]

Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.
Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.

Yes, definately get rid of that blasted loud music! :ahem:


As for "performing", to perform means "to do." I perform tasks at work. So, if you want to take performing out of worship, then you won't be worshipping at all.

Even "entertain" simply means to keep one's attention. God forbid our music be SO boring that it cannot keep our attention.

Come on, people. Music is art. Art is about emotion and passion. IF we worship via music, then our worship is going to be emotional and passionate. In fact, if it isn't, then I would wonder if it is worship at all.

Michael

[luv1another]

Of course it matters, ABSOLUTELY.

We are to worship God in spirit and truth.

and you are saying that modern music is not worshipping God in Spirit and in truth?
funny thing is when some of the hymns were written they had much the same type of reaction... yet now you are telling me hymns are great and today's music is of the devil :ahem:
funny how people attack things that are modern or are diffrent to what they are used to or like

Much of todays so called Christian music is man centered and an unpleasent clanging, din, beat, boom, clamour, drum, hammer, pound, repeat, ring, thunder, bruit, clash, clatter, crash, hubbub, bullabaloo, hurly-burly, noise, outcry, racket, row, shout, uproar, unto God who is Holy.

uh hu just like God wants try reading the psalms as muz pointed out if thats not what you described I don't know what is

God is a consumming fire and He is angry with the wicked every day. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian pastor or musician or singer or whatever, means that they are living holy lives unto God and that they are even Christian!

very true I never said that every person who calls themselves Christian is one or that all of the are going to heaven :doh:


I will *NOT* have a "Hillsong" book or CD in my home. If I found one in my home I would throw it in the fire.

Soli Deo Gloria

Aseity

thats ok aseity don't come to my place because I have about 8 Hillsong CD's oh and I have a borrowed book of my friends by darlene czech.
and you know what I like a lot of the songs too :teeth:
oh and I also listen to a group called apologetix too who do Christian parody songs and lets see oh I have a vineyard CD and steven curtis chapman.
maybe we will see a whole lot of posts about how bad they are now :ahem:

[Aseity]

thats ok aseity don't come to my place because I have about 8 Hillsong CD's oh and I have a borrowed book of my friends by darlene czech.
and you know what I like a lot of the songs too




I won't. But God is in your home, fully present there, as He is fully present with me here, as He is fully present everywhere, eternally. Omnipresent.

And God is a consumming fire and is angry with the wicked every day

Keep the false teachings of Hillsong via music books or whatever. I cannot make you get rid of them, only God can do that. All it is, is that you will have fasle teachings via music and books in your home. Take it up with God.

Your mate Mus can play the arrogant prideful smart alec as much as he likes, God takes note. Vengance is mine says the LORD God, I leave the mus in God's hands to be dealt with. And a crashing fall is just around the corner for the rude man. Will the same happen to you.

Some of your smart comments are not much better, you sinful woman. True?Repent!

Read those articles that I have posted about Hillsong and Brian and Bobbie Houston, the false teachers they ARE. He is a crafty one, he is so sly you cannot see the error behind his mask of respectability and that shifty smile. Hillsong is ripping folks off! Just like Benny Hinn. No different. They both preach the horrendeous *Word of Faith* fasle doctrines.

Pray first.

[dizzle]

Aseity - this is a section for brethre and we expect a bit more charity. We can debate without denouncing the "person" in each and every post. Deal with ideas and lay off the "repent you sinner" stuff. We are all Christians in this section, and we know we are sinners. You do not need to go off like that. Deal with the issue and why it is bad and tone down on the brimstone

[Maxentius]

Come on, people. Music is art. Art is about emotion and passion. IF we worship via music, then our worship is going to be emotional and passionate. In fact, if it isn't, then I would wonder if it is worship at all.

Michael

Hello Michael,

I don't think anyone here is saying that trumpets etc. should be forbidden. But having been to more than one "contemporary" service, the hymns for the most part do not stack up to older hymns as far as focusing us on God and his actions in history. They are, over all, focused on our subjective feelings more than on our Creator. It is not a matter of kind so much as a matter of degree.

I also don't think worship needs to be emotional to be worship. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with expressing feelings during worship. The word worship comes form the old English weorthscipe or "worthship". We worship God because of who he is rather than to satisfy our feelings. If I feel sad yet the service is upbeat, do I fail to worship because I don't share others' feelings?

[elysian]

Hello Michael,

I don't think anyone here is saying that trumpets etc. should be forbidden. But having been to more than one "contemporary" service, the hymns for the most part do not stack up to older hymns as far as focusing us on God and his actions in history. They are, over all, focused on our subjective feelings more than on our Creator. It is not a matter of kind so much as a matter of degree.

I also don't think worship needs to be emotional to be worship. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with expressing feelings during worship. The word worship comes form the old English weorthscipe or "worthship". We worship God because of who he is rather than to satisfy our feelings. If I feel sad yet the service is upbeat, do I fail to worship because I don't share others' feelings?

God speaks to us and through us in so many diverse ways. As I've said before, should we not praise God in an infinite variety of ways? Psalm 150 seems to suggest praise with abandon and joy. Aesthetically I will agree- I love the traditional hymns because many of them contain stories of what God has done and also lessons in Christian living. But I am open-minded enough to appreciate contemporary songs and all different musical genres (and this includes rock and hip-hop) given that there is not faulty theology in the lyrics. Yes I can go from singing Handel in our Heritage (traditional) service, to singing "Lord, I Lift Your Name on High" in the contemporary service. I don't have a problem with using different genres in worship and rather enjoy certain contemporary songs.

Our Pastors are involved in music as far as they do check the lyrics and messages in the songs to make sure they are theologically correct and that they correspond with the sermon theme of the day but they do not say "you can only do hymns from the LBW (Lutheran Book of Worship)" or "you can't use____genre." We have had Celtic music, traditional /classical with trumpets and strings, African, rock, jazz, hip-hop- you name it- in my church.

I will admit in some contemporary music the lyrics are sort of "dumbed-down" which is sad because most people are capable of understanding the concepts. (this is one criticism I have of "seeker friendliness"- do not compromise or water down Truth to appear "friendly") What is important about lyrics is that in effect they are prayers and praise and also serve in some instances as a lesson or a reinforcement of a lesson, so the words must be true. Genre is not nearly as important as the desire from the heart to praise God.

[Maxentius]

Hello Elesian,

God speaks to us and through us in so many diverse ways. As I've said before, should we not praise God in an infinite variety of ways?

It is not modern music araingements that are the problem, but their content for the most part. There are some excellent modern hymns but I think most are not very good.

Psalm 150 seems to suggest praise with abandon and joy.

There is nothing wrong with joy in worship, but our joy is not the reason for worship. We worship God because he deserves our worship. I am not someone who only likes older hymns and strictly LBW. :smile: More later.

Yes I can go from singing Handel in our Heritage (traditional) service, to singing "Lord, I Lift Your Name on High" in the contemporary service. I don't have a problem with using different genres in worship and rather enjoy certain contemporary songs.

OK.

Our Pastors are involved in music as far as they do check the lyrics and messages in the songs to make sure they are theologically correct and that they correspond with the sermon theme of the day but they do not say "you can only do hymns from the LBW (Lutheran Book of Worship)" or "you can't use____genre." We have had Celtic music, traditional /classical with trumpets and strings, African, rock, jazz, hip-hop- you name it- in my church.

Well, we are in agreement then. We are not tied to particular liturgies or forms of music. This all comes under Christian Liberty.

I will admit in some contemporary music the lyrics are sort of "dumbed-down" which is sad because most people are capable of understanding the concepts. (this is one criticism I have of "seeker friendliness"- do not compromise or water down Truth to appear "friendly") What is important about lyrics is that in effect they are prayers and praise and also serve in some instances as a lesson or a reinforcement of a lesson, so the words must be true. Genre is not nearly as important as the desire from the heart to praise God.

I think most contemporary hymns are dumbed down. They are very repetative and do not convey God's grace and majesty. There was one which consisted of "Praise God" said over and over and over and over. Of course it is not impossible to make good modern hymns, but as it stands now I think that most are not very good. Remember, worship teaches. If it is true that most (not all!) contemporary services and music are dumbed down then that needs to change. It does not matter what musical arrangements we use either--the content is what matters.

Now, I think another problem is that most modern hymns are centered on ones self and one's emotional fulfilment. Of course some are not and some older ones are. And of course it is not intrinsically wrong to focus on one's emotional state. It is a matter of degree. It is certainly possible to have a "contemporary" service that is 100% orthodox and that has all the different components in balance. But if someone wants to change the music because it is boring/old, it sounds like giving God what he deserves, worship, has to be entertaining for us. I also think that one reason we dumb things down is in the mistaken belief that we must market to the masses. The "seeker service" you mentioned is a good example. (The problem with seeker services is that worship is for believers, not non-believers.)

I will say it again, a modern, contemporary service is not intrinsically wrong. Hymns which speak of our subjective feelings are not intrinsically wrong. But mixed together in certain ways, they are spiritually dangerous. "Prosperity Gospel" anyone?

Finally, I think (not lack of dogmatism!) that the new has to prove why we should change the old. If something works, we should not change it unless we have a good reason. In this way we can have a living tradition.

[elysian]

:thumb:

[c968]

I agree with everything Maxentius has said in his very thoughtful last posting. But here's a spontaneous thought bouncing around in my cranium. Granted, some modern praise songs are worse than the garbage candy next to the cash register in American convenience stores because there is no thought behind the words . . . just sing the same tired catch phrases to a funky beat without any thought as to WHY we are "praising God" or what the implications are when we sing "You are holy".

But on the other hand, sometimes words fail us in the presence of God's majesty. And I think there may be room once and while, when appropriate, for a drawn out chorus in very subdued fashion, of nothing more than "Praise Him", or perhaps even better, "Praise You". I'm thinking of the man in scripture who beat on his chest and could say only "God have mercy on me a sinner" (Been there . . . )
Just a thought

[Aseity]

I agree with everything Maxentius has said in his very thoughtful last posting. But here's a spontaneous thought bouncing around in my cranium. Granted, some modern praise songs are worse than the garbage candy next to the cash register in American convenience stores because there is no thought behind the words . . . just sing the same tired catch phrases to a funky beat without any thought as to WHY we are "praising God" or what the implications are when we sing "You are holy".

But on the other hand, sometimes words fail us in the presence of God's majesty. And I think there may be room once and while, when appropriate, for a drawn out chorus in very subdued fashion, of nothing more than "Praise Him", or perhaps even better, "Praise You". I'm thinking of the man in scripture who beat on his chest and could say only "God have mercy on me a sinner" (Been there . . . )
Just a thought


Good thoughts and the others thoughts are good as well.

If only I could express my thoughts as kind and graceful and gentle as you and the others.

Oh! LORD God on High, help me!

[themuzicman]

Hello Michael,

I don't think anyone here is saying that trumpets etc. should be forbidden. But having been to more than one "contemporary" service, the hymns for the most part do not stack up to older hymns as far as focusing us on God and his actions in history. They are, over all, focused on our subjective feelings more than on our Creator. It is not a matter of kind so much as a matter of degree.

I've already posted several popular hymns that focus on "me" and "I". Today's music is no more or less centered on self than the hymns of the past.

I also don't think worship needs to be emotional to be worship. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with expressing feelings during worship. The word worship comes form the old English weorthscipe or "worthship". We worship God because of who he is rather than to satisfy our feelings. If I feel sad yet the service is upbeat, do I fail to worship because I don't share others' feelings?

No one said that everyone had to have the same feelings, Aseity. But worship, at it's core, is giving glory and praise to God. Now, if I were to praise you in a monotone, emotionless "good job, Aseity", you'd have serious reason to doubt my sincerity. For humans, sincerity and passion are expressed via emotion. If you are making emotionless worship to God, how much can that really mean?


Remember, too, that the hymns of today were the contemporary music of its day. A lot of older hymns (C & J Wesleys' era) were bar songs with different words, or bar style songs written as worship. So, I wouldn't go getting all high and mighty on any hymn that we sing in English. 200 years from now, some of the songs we sing today will be the "sacred music" of a future generation.

Michael

[Ishmael]

I've already posted several popular hymns that focus on "me" and "I". Today's [Christian] music is no more or less centered on self than the hymns of the past.

No it's campy, comercialized, shallow, and plain old fashioned bad.

[themuzicman]

You must be listening to different contemporary music than I.

[Maxentius]

HelloMichael,


No one said that everyone had to have the same feelings, Aseity. But worship, at it's core, is giving glory and praise to God. Now, if I were to praise you in a monotone, emotionless "good job, Aseity", you'd have serious reason to doubt my sincerity.

I am Maxentius BTW :hehe:

Anyway, who says traditional music is emotionless? And who says emotion is required for proper worship? If you say emotional responses, even a specific set of emotional responses, are required for proper worship then you believe worship is centered on us and our reaction--not the object of our worship, God, because it is not valid for us without the requisite emotions.

Given that true worship is of the true God:

True worship is sincere worship, i.e. not corrupted by hypocracy. (More below)

I think you misunderstand what worship is. As I said before, we do not worship God so we can experience joy, we worship God because he is entitled to it. We experience joy because when we worship God we have a peak at the true fellowship we will have with him after the last day--but we are not required to experience that joy for us to worship God. It is a bit like believing in the truth of the Bible. I do not believe in Jesus Christ because I believe that what the Bible says is true, I believe what the Bible says is true because I believe in Jesus Christ.

For humans, sincerity and passion are expressed via emotion. If you are making emotionless worship to God, how much can that really mean?

God commands worship. We should obey. Joy is an extra gift we receive but it is not required for true worship. If it is, worship is actually centered on our reaction to it and not on God.

Also, sincerity is a lack of hypocracy, it does not have anything to do with emotion per se. We do not even need emotion to repent or love (agape) our neighbor--we just have to serve him, and we are sincere in our service, even if we do not have warm fuzzies at the time, so long as we are not hypocritical.

Remember, too, that the hymns of today were the contemporary music of its day. A lot of older hymns (C & J Wesleys' era) were bar songs with different words, or bar style songs written as worship. So, I wouldn't go getting all high and mighty on any hymn that we sing in English. 200 years from now, some of the songs we sing today will be the "sacred music" of a future generation. Michael

Maybe, maybe not. True enough, the hymns from before were contemporary music. But that does not make contemporary hymns good hymns.

Can't you see the difference between "Praise God.....(loop)" and "Immortal, invisible God only wise.."? or "I will choose to follow Jesus" versus "I know that my Redeemer lives.."?

And why do you accuse me of being high and mighty? I have not said that there should be no contemporary music, or that a hymn is wrong just because it focuses on our feelings. All I say is that generally speaking, modern hymns focus on the individual--this goes along with our hyper-individualistic society. Context counts, and the context I see is a self centered one.

[themuzicman]

I am Maxentius BTW :hehe:

Anyway, who says traditional music is emotionless? And who says emotion is required for proper worship? If you say emotional responses, even a specific set of emotional responses, are required for proper worship then you believe worship is centered on us and our reaction--not the object of our worship, God, because it is not valid for us without the requisite emotions.

Given that true worship is of the true God:

True worship is sincere worship, i.e. not corrupted by hypocracy. (More below)

I think you misunderstand what worship is. As I said before, we do not worship God so we can experience joy, we worship God because he is entitled to it. We experience joy because when we worship God we have a peak at the true fellowship we will have with him after the last day--but we are not required to experience that joy for us to worship God. It is a bit like believing in the truth of the Bible. I do not believe in Jesus Christ because I believe that what the Bible says is true, I believe what the Bible says is true because I believe in Jesus Christ.

I never said otherwise. What I said is that if we are to worship in music, then emotion is a necessary component, because music, as art, is about emotion.

Obviously, there are non-art forms of worship that would not require emotion.

God commands worship. We should obey. Joy is an extra gift we receive but it is not required for true worship. If it is, worship is actually centered on our reaction to it and not on God.

Unless it takes the form of art, which would require emotional expression.

Also, sincerity is a lack of hypocracy, it does not have anything to do with emotion per se. We do not even need emotion to repent or love (agape) our neighbor--we just have to serve him, and we are sincere in our service, even if we do not have warm fuzzies at the time, so long as we are not hypocritical.

The thread, however, was set in the context of music.

Maybe, maybe not. True enough, the hymns from before were contemporary music. But that does not make contemporary hymns good hymns.

Can't you see the difference between "Praise God.....(loop)" and "Immortal, invisible God only wise.."? or "I will choose to follow Jesus" versus "I know that my Redeemer lives.."?

I could choose many an example to demonstrate the very opposite of what you've shown here. Thus, there are good hymns and bad hymns, good contemporary worship and bad contemporary worship. That's life.

And why do you accuse me of being high and mighty? I have not said that there should be no contemporary music, or that a hymn is wrong just because it focuses on our feelings. All I say is that generally speaking, modern hymns focus on the individual--this goes along with our hyper-individualistic society. Context counts, and the context I see is a self centered one.

And I disagree. You've picked out a few (the worst you can find, no doubt) that show your point, and I've picked out a few that hymns are no better.

The "modern era" didn't start in the last 20 years. It's been around since many of the hymns were written, and hymns are just as individualistic as contemporary worship. If you're going to throw out one, you have to throw out both.

Now, if you're going to deal with reality there are good and bad songs on each side. If you hate contemporary that much, don't go to a church that sings them. But don't think that your vaunted hymns are any better.

Michael

[Maxentius]

I never said otherwise. What I said is that if we are to worship in music, then emotion is a necessary component, because music, as art, is about emotion.

Nope, I disagree. This is more about the philosophy of art, and I do not agree that emotion is a necessary part of art. If we say emotions, each of which we experience idiosyncratically, are a necessary component of art, what does that do to corporate worship? We will all have different experiences because we will all have different objects, our individual feelings. If our object is God we are all experiencing the same thing, worship of God, correct? And this would be true as long as we are sincere, correct?

The thread, however, was set in the context of music.

Music in the context of worship.

And I disagree. You've picked out a few (the worst you can find, no doubt) that show your point, and I've picked out a few that hymns are no better.

The "modern era" didn't start in the last 20 years. It's been around since many of the hymns were written, and hymns are just as individualistic as contemporary worship. If you're going to throw out one, you have to throw out both.

No, I don't have to throw anything out. As I said, it is about degree not kind--it is not an all or nothing proposition. The examples were off the top of my head, I did not hunt for the "worst."

An "individualistic" hymn in a proper corporate worship setting is OK. Outside of that setting it is spiritually dangerous because we focus on our selves. Surely you believe that emotions are subjective in nature? I would even go so far as saying that if we are motivated by our emotions, it is a self centered, though not necessarily wrong, motive.

Now, if you're going to deal with reality there are good and bad songs on each side.

This is almost exactly what I said earlier.

If you hate contemporary that much, don't go to a church that sings them. But don't think that your vaunted hymns are any better.

Please show where I say I hate contemporary music, or even imply it. Or else take this back.

Look Michael, I am not trying to argue with you about worship styles. We are free to have pretty much any style we like. However, I do believe that most modern hymns excessively focus on the individual and not God. This is from experience and from speaking with others. From what others have written I am not alone.

[themuzicman]

Nope, I disagree. This is more about the philosophy of art, and I do not agree that emotion is a necessary part of art. If we say emotions, each of which we experience idiosyncratically, are a necessary component of art, what does that do to corporate worship? We will all have different experiences because we will all have different objects, our individual feelings. If our object is God we are all experiencing the same thing, worship of God, correct? And this would be true as long as we are sincere, correct?


"Experiencing" sounds like something is happening to us. Worship is our response to God. It is both corporate and invidudal at the same time.

Music in the context of worship.

But still music.

No, I don't have to throw anything out. As I said, it is about degree not kind--it is not an all or nothing proposition. The examples were off the top of my head, I did not hunt for the "worst."

Off the top of my head:

Alleluia... Alleluia... For the Lord God Almighty reigns.
Alleluia.. Holy, Holy are you Lord God, Almighty.
Worthy is the lamb... Worthy is the lamb.
You are Holy!

Individualistic? Self-centered? I think not.

All to Jesus, I surrender;
All to Him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust Him,
In His presence daily live.

Refrain
I surrender all, I surrender all,
All to Thee, my blessèd Savior,
I surrender all.

All to Jesus Isurrender;
Humbly at His feet I bow,
Worldly pleasures all forsaken;
Take me, Jesus, take me now.

Refrain

All to Jesus, I surrender;
Make me, Savior, wholly Thine;
Let mefeel the Holy Spirit,
Truly know that Thou art mine.

Refrain

All to Jesus, I surrender;
Lord, I give myself to Thee;
Fill me with Thy love and power;
Let Thy blessing fall on me.

Refrain

All to Jesus I surrender;
Now I feel the sacred flame.
O the joy of full salvation!
Glory, glory, to His Name!

Self-centered? Yes. Inappropriate? (It's in the Psalter Hymnal)

An "individualistic" hymn in a proper corporate worship setting is OK. Outside of that setting it is spiritually dangerous because we focus on our selves. Surely you believe that emotions are subjective in nature? I would even go so far as saying that if we are motivated by our emotions, it is a self centered, though not necessarily wrong, motive.

I agree.

Please show where I say I hate contemporary music, or even imply it. Or else take this back.

OK, that was too strong. It take it back. My bad.

Look Michael, I am not trying to argue with you about worship styles. We are free to have pretty much any style we like. However, I do believe that most modern hymns excessively focus on the individual and not God. This is from experience and from speaking with others. From what others have written I am not alone.

And my experience in worshipping using contemporary worship is just the opposite. Yes, there are some songs that should just be tossed, but that's true of all human written music, old and new.

Michael

[Maxentius]

Self-centered? Yes. Inappropriate? (It's in the Psalter Hymnal)

Actually, I would not consider this individualistic. At least as I understand the term. The kind of music I have in mind, and they are not obscure, are ones like "And he walks with me, and he talks with me, and he tells me I am his own......" Or "I will choose to follow Jesus...." Both your hymn and my examples are in the first person, but my examples are really about the one singing, Jesus is just a prop. These types of hymns are not rare in my experience and I think they are bad.

These kinds of hymns are non-existent in TLH (The Lutheran Hymnal). BTW, TLH contains some contemporary music too. :smile:


OK, that was too strong. It take it back. My bad.

No problem!

And my experience in worshipping using contemporary worship is just the opposite. Yes, there are some songs that should just be tossed, but that's true of all human written music, old and new.

Michael

Of course I never said it was impossible for orthodox hymns to be written. I think that the older hymns are better though, because they survived over centuries (some of them, anyway.) We are not bound to certain forms of music or worship.

This is where tradition becomes very useful. Not in a dogmatic sense but useful nonetheless. It corrects some bad tendencies--and we are part of the process by writing about this here.

Worship is very centralto the church and I think we need to be careful when we introduce innovations in our worship forms. If we keep focus on the proper object, God, and do not seek to please ourselves we will be OK.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Actually, I would not consider this individualistic. At least as I understand the term. The kind of music I have in mind, and they are not obscure, are ones like "And he walks with me, and he talks with me, and he tells me I am his own......" Or "I will choose to follow Jesus...." Both your hymn and my examples are in the first person, but my examples are really about the one singing, Jesus is just a prop. These types of hymns are not rare in my experience and I think they are bad.

These kinds of hymns are non-existent in TLH (The Lutheran Hymnal). BTW, TLH contains some contemporary music too. :smile:




No problem!



Of course I never said it was impossible for orthodox hymns to be written. I think that the older hymns are better though, because they survived over centuries (some of them, anyway.) We are not bound to certain forms of music or worship.

This is where tradition becomes very useful. Not in a dogmatic sense but useful nonetheless. It corrects some bad tendencies--and we are part of the process by writing about this here.

Worship is very centralto the church and I think we need to be careful when we introduce innovations in our worship forms. If we keep focus on the proper object, God, and do not seek to please ourselves we will be OK.
Well said Maxentius. I think you have touched on a lot of good point in this thread, and touched slightly on something that I think everyone here is missing. Specifically when you said:


Of course I never said it was impossible for orthodox hymns to be written. I think that the older hymns are better though, because they survived over centuries (some of them, anyway.) We are not bound to certain forms of music or worship.

I agree that much of "popular-contemporary" music is garbage (to put it kindly). However, IIRC from my music history course (at a Baptist College) there was an extremely large number of hymns written since around 1600. Most of which have not survived. Why, because only a few of them were really good.

IOW. There was a large amount of garbage written, some of which had "contemporary" appeal to the people of that day, but we no longer use. I think the same thing is happening today. Older isn't better, but the old hymns that we know will be on the average better than the new ones not because they are older but because they have withstood the test of time. 100 years from now our grand children will be complaining that the "new church music" isn't nearly as good as the "good old church music" that was written at the first of the 21st Centure, because the stuff that they know of this time will be the cream of the cream of the crop.

I also agree that the problem with the "self-centered" music in today's worship is one of degree. There is IMHO nothing wrong with the "I Love you Lord" type songs as long as there is a balance.

I have more to say, but am out of time. I will try to get back to this thread.

[Jezz]

A thought occurred to me just this morning...

What differentiates "self-worship" songs from "God-worship" songs is not the presence of 1st-person pronouns (I, me, my). It's a little more subtle than that. It has to do with the active agent in the song. This comes through at both a grammatical level, and at a higher "thematic" level. A song can use 1st person pronouns, while still making God the active agent. For example:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound...
that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I am found
Was blind, but now I see. :doh:

Let's look at this, line-by-line:
"that saved a wretch like me..."
Ok, we are talking about "me" here, but what is the active agent? What is the subject of the verb "saved" - the thing that did the saving? It was "Amazing Grace" - specifically, God's amazing grace.

"I once was lost, but now I am found"
Again, we are talking about "me". But this is really describing what I am/was, and not describing what I've done, or what I am going to do. So again this isn't a focus on me as the active agent. But note also that the statement "but now I am found" immediately begs the question: "who/what found me?" The answer, while not explicitly stated, is clear - God found me, by His Amazing Grace.

"Was blind, but now I see"
"Was blind" merely describes me - it doesn't say what I've done. "I see" - well, grammatically speaking this is the "active voice", and "I" am the active agent. However, the verb "see" itself is actually a verb that is rather passive in meaning - as opposed to the more active "look". The preference in word choice here is subtle yet profound - it's not as though I actively "looked" for God - rather, I "saw" Him - because He made Himself visible to me.

I think the literary and theological power of this hymn actually lies in the fact that, although God is not directly mentioned very often (in fact, not at all in this verse), it is clear that He is the active agent in the story that the hymn is telling.

Now, contrast this with this song:

Lord, I give You my heart
I give You my soul
I live for You alone
Every breath that I take
Every moment I'm awake
Lord, have Your way in me

Now, I don't have too many quibbles with the last three lines, but in the first three: Who is the active agent? Who is giving their heart? Who is giving their soul? Who is doing the living? I think, if it were my song, I would rewrite the first three lines to be more like the following:

Lord, You've taken my heart
You've taken my soul
My life is Yours alone

Thereby restoring God to the place as active agent, and less focus on what I am doing/will do. It is not that I give myself to God, but that He takes me for His own. God is the active agent in salvation, not me.

That's not to say that we can't have phrases like "I give you my heart" in a hymn - I just think it needs to be well-tempered with phrases that make it clear who is really the active agent. While the above refrain does eventually return to God as the active agent with the last line ("Lord, have Your way in me"), that's only after spending the first 5 lines of the refrain talking about what I am doing.

As for "performing", to perform means "to do." I perform tasks at work. So, if you want to take performing out of worship, then you won't be worshipping at all.
Well duh. :smile: But you're equivocating. I'm all for "performance" in the more watered-down, mundane sense of simply "doing" that you're implying here. But of course, you're aware that "performance" is typically meant in a different way - ie, where the performer is showing off their talents for self-glorification. That's the meaning I'm talking about.

Even "entertain" simply means to keep one's attention. God forbid our music be SO boring that it cannot keep our attention.
God forbid that we find music about God boring... Again, you know what I mean about "entertaining", and it carrying a different nuance.

[themuzicman]

What differentiates "self-worship" songs from "God-worship" songs is not the presence of 1st-person pronouns (I, me, my). It's a little more subtle than that. It has to do with the active agent in the song. This comes through at both a grammatical level, and at a higher "thematic" level. A song can use 1st person pronouns, while still making God the active agent. For example:



Let's look at this, line-by-line:
"that saved a wretch like me..."
Ok, we are talking about "me" here, but what is the active agent? What is the subject of the verb "saved" - the thing that did the saving? It was "Amazing Grace" - specifically, God's amazing grace.

"I once was lost, but now I am found"
Again, we are talking about "me". But this is really describing what I am/was, and not describing what I've done, or what I am going to do. So again this isn't a focus on me as the active agent. But note also that the statement "but now I am found" immediately begs the question: "who/what found me?" The answer, while not explicitly stated, is clear - God found me, by His Amazing Grace.

"Was blind, but now I see"
"Was blind" merely describes me - it doesn't say what I've done. "I see" - well, grammatically speaking this is the "active voice", and "I" am the active agent. However, the verb "see" itself is actually a verb that is rather passive in meaning - as opposed to the more active "look". The preference in word choice here is subtle yet profound - it's not as though I actively "looked" for God - rather, I "saw" Him - because He made Himself visible to me.

I think the literary and theological power of this hymn actually lies in the fact that, although God is not directly mentioned very often (in fact, not at all in this verse), it is clear that He is the active agent in the story that the hymn is telling.

That wasn't the criterion, however.

Now, contrast this with this song:



Now, I don't have too many quibbles with the last three lines, but in the first three: Who is the active agent? Who is giving their heart? Who is giving their soul? Who is doing the living? I think, if it were my song, I would rewrite the first three lines to be more like the following:

Lord, You've taken my heart
You've taken my soul
My life is Yours alone

Thereby restoring God to the place as active agent, and less focus on what I am doing/will do. It is not that I give myself to God, but that He takes me for His own. God is the active agent in salvation, not me.

That's not to say that we can't have phrases like "I give you my heart" in a hymn - I just think it needs to be well-tempered with phrases that make it clear who is really the active agent. While the above refrain does eventually return to God as the active agent with the last line ("Lord, have Your way in me"), that's only after spending the first 5 lines of the refrain talking about what I am doing.

But the last line makes it clear that the worshipper is asking God to bring about His will through them. So, in the end, the same ends are met, if in a different way.

Well duh. :smile: But you're equivocating. I'm all for "performance" in the more watered-down, mundane sense of simply "doing" that you're implying here. But of course, you're aware that "performance" is typically meant in a different way - ie, where the performer is showing off their talents for self-glorification. That's the meaning I'm talking about.

But not as watered down as a hidden organ played by a 2nd rate organist...

God forbid that we find music about God boring... Again, you know what I mean about "entertaining", and it carrying a different nuance.

Sure, but now you've taken out of the parlance of worship by anyone's standards.

Michael

[c968]

Jezz, Farmir, Maxentius,

OK, that does it!!! I'm just gonna have go EMPTY my pearls for the last few postings!!!

(Well, maybe not all of them, 5 at a shot would take a long time!)

You guys rock, and all glory to God for His grace in your words.

[markporter]

Now, I don't have too many quibbles with the last three lines, but in the first three: Who is the active agent? Who is giving their heart? Who is giving their soul? Who is doing the living? I think, if it were my song, I would rewrite the first three lines to be more like the following:

Lord, You've taken my heart
You've taken my soul
My life is Yours alone


Argh...but if it's a song of response to God then does your re-writing really work? I think that the act of giving is a crucial one here.

[themuzicman]

Lord, You've taken my heart
You've taken my soul
My life is Yours alone

Thereby restoring God to the place as active agent, and less focus on what I am doing/will do. It is not that I give myself to God, but that He takes me for His own. God is the active agent in salvation, not me.

That's not to say that we can't have phrases like "I give you my heart" in a hymn - I just think it needs to be well-tempered with phrases that make it clear who is really the active agent. While the above refrain does eventually return to God as the active agent with the last line ("Lord, have Your way in me"), that's only after spending the first 5 lines of the refrain talking about what I am doing.


How classically theist of you to change the words. You can't even allow someone to choose to give God their will to form it. Even for the regenerate, God must force their heart away from them, in spite of what they may want, and force them to dedicate their life to Him.

Doesn't sound like a God of love to me.

Michael

[Gavin]

Psalm 23 is "self-centered" in the sense that David's speaks repeatedly of his own personal needs and comforts in God. There is obviously nothing about about mentioning ourselves when we worship God. Both Scripture and hymns do it. The problem would arise when instead of mentioning ourselves in the application of God's truth to our lives by the Spirit we start mentioning ourselves as an end in and of itself. Frankly, I really don't think many contemporary praise choruses do that (at least any more than the hymns).

The principle of God being the agent in salvation and therefore needing to sing "Lord you have taken my heart" rather than "Lord I give you my heart" is misguided in my opinion. Of course, God is the ultimate agent in salvation. But this does not mean we should neglect to consecrate ourselves to God wholeheartedly and ignore the human responsibility aspect of salvation. Statements like, "Lord I give you my heart" and other such vows and declarations of consecration are very much in the heartbeat of the Psalms.

Man I miss posting here.

[Maxentius]

A thought occurred to me just this morning...

What differentiates "self-worship" songs from "God-worship" songs is not the presence of 1st-person pronouns (I, me, my). It's a little more subtle than that. It has to do with the active agent in the song. This comes through at both a grammatical level, and at a higher "thematic" level.

I agree witrh this. Even the famous Psalm 23 is really about God's caring for David rather than about David per se. The same goes for "Create in me a clean heart O God...." God is the active agent. I wanted to say this but you said it better.


That's not to say that we can't have phrases like "I give you my heart" in a hymn - I just think it needs to be well-tempered with phrases that make it clear who is really the active agent.

I agree 100%, but unfortunately the line is not a clear one. It is a little like that judge who said (paraphrase) "I can't define bad literature, but I know it when I see it."

God forbid that we find music about God boring... Again, you know what I mean about "entertaining", and it carrying a different nuance.

I think that by definition, when we say "change because of boredom" we are focusing on ourselves and not God. We want to be entertained. Our enjoyment becomes an integral part of our worship. I do not think it is integral, but certainly it is desirable!

I agree that much of "popular-contemporary" music is garbage (to put it kindly). However, IIRC from my music history course (at a Baptist College) there was an extremely large number of hymns written since around 1600. Most of which have not survived. Why, because only a few of them were really good.

IOW. There was a large amount of garbage written, some of which had "contemporary" appeal to the people of that day, but we no longer use. I think the same thing is happening today. Older isn't better, but the old hymns that we know will be on the average better than the new ones not because they are older but because they have withstood the test of time. 100 years from now our grand children will be complaining that the "new church music" isn't nearly as good as the "good old church music" that was written at the first of the 21st Centure, because the stuff that they know of this time will be the cream of the cream of the crop.

I agree with you too. I also think this is part of that process. This is also where I view tradition as valuable. If something survived for centuries it is lilely, but not necessarily, valuable. I don't think it is a good idea to go messing around with worship forms just because of taste. Here is an extereme example. I knew a Christian man who said that "We change our worship service often so we do noy have any traditions." Well, that is a tradition too! I happen to think the older traditions are better ones, but not binding.

There, did I contradict myself enough? :hehe:

Well, c968 :blush:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Psalm 23 is "self-centered" in the sense that David's speaks repeatedly of his own personal needs and comforts in God. There is obviously nothing about about mentioning ourselves when we worship God. Both Scripture and hymns do it. The problem would arise when instead of mentioning ourselves in the application of God's truth to our lives by the Spirit we start mentioning ourselves as an end in and of itself. Frankly, I really don't think many contemporary praise choruses do that (at least any more than the hymns).

The principle of God being the agent in salvation and therefore needing to sing "Lord you have taken my heart" rather than "Lord I give you my heart" is misguided in my opinion. Of course, God is the ultimate agent in salvation. But this does not mean we should neglect to consecrate ourselves to God wholeheartedly and ignore the human responsibility aspect of salvation. Statements like, "Lord I give you my heart" and other such vows and declarations of consecration are very much in the heartbeat of the Psalms.

Man I miss posting here.First I want to say Gavin :woohoo: It is good to see you back man. And if you miss posting here half as much as I miss you posting here then... :huh: well I guess I miss twice as much as you do. :wink:

Well said Gavin.

Like I said in my earlier post there is IMHO nothing wrong with what some people are here are calling the "self centered" songs used in worship. I do believe that songs proclaiming individual and/or corporate acts of worship are appropriate for corporate worship.

However, I also agree with many of the poster's here that the problem in many churches is the almost exclusive (and in some cases totally exclusive) role they play in the worship services of many modern churches. And I blame this on the "seeker driven" model that so many churches follow.


Warning rant ahead!!!!

:rant: I think the "seeker driven" idea is good. After all Paul said, "I am become all thing to all people that some might be saved." However, in practice many (most) "seeker driven" churches IMHO tend to "become all things to all people" without taking enough effort to "save some". In an effort to reach all people the Gospel has been watered down into a "feel good, what can I get out of it" movement.

Should we have excelent music in our church? Absolutely!!! The OT is full of list of Levi's that end "and the were greatly skilled at playing musical instruments". God deserves excelence.

Should we have songs that talk about how "good is feels to be a Christian"? Yes!!! It does feel good to be a Christian. The real question IMHO should be Should we have exculsively songs about the "good feelings/benifits/self motiviated" aspects of Christianity? To which I would answer a resounding NO!!!!!!!

I don't think that I am aware of any single "self centered" song that I find objectionable in and of itself. It is the overwhelming abundance of these songs at the expense of other more "God centered" songs that I find objectoinable.

The truth is that Christianity is great and is wonderful, but it is also harsh in many ways as well. When the worship services is all about the "happy good feelings" and neglects the harsher aspects like sin, judgement and accountablitly the "seekers" are only getting half the Gospel. Is it possible to be half saved?

To sum up my rant. The Church should make the worship service as attractive as possible to "seekers". As long as the message of the Gospel is not compromised or watered down. By all means use the "self centered" songs (new or old) but include the more "substantive" songs as well (also new or old).

Ideally "seeker driven" should mean that a church aranges its programs to make the truth of the gospel as attractive to as many people as possible (I have become all thing to all people). Realistically many (most?) seeker driven churches (re)arange the truth of gospel to make their programs attractive to as many people as possible.

Sorry for my rant. Those of you who said nice things about my earlier post are free to take it back now. But, I did warn you that I had more to say.

Rant over :rant:


:sig:

[elysian]

There has to be a balance. In Lutheran theology there is an emphasis on the whole counsel of Scripture which we can apply to music as well. I am extremely biased here because music is a big part of Lutheran liturgy and tradition. Yes music should be technically correct, and of many different genres, especially in a large church where there are talented musicians in the congregation. The ability to sing or play is a gift from God and should be used to praise Him! Yes, lyrics must always be theologically correct and should have varied themes. In my church the hymns correspond with the subject matter of the sermon. (If the sermon's on God's grace, we sing songs like "Amazing Grace," "How Great Thou Art" or "Blessed Assurance.")

There must be a balance between the "me-n-Jesus" songs and songs that speak of His majesty and His sacrifice and of Christian living. I think this is accomplished by correlating the songs with the subject matter of the sermon as long as the the Pastor is preaching on the whole counsel of Scripture: that he doesn't avoid the hard topics such as sin, repentance, discipleship and stewardship. This doesn't mean the Pastor preaches on every subject every Sunday, but that he preaches on discipleship, sacrifice and living in community as well as "me-n-Jesus." The hymns (regardless of genre) would reflect and reinforce the teaching in the sermons accordingly.

[Spiritus Naturae]

There has to be a balance. In Lutheran theology there is an emphasis on the whole counsel of Scripture which we can apply to music as well. I am extremely biased here because music is a big part of Lutheran liturgy and tradition. Yes music should be technically correct, and of many different genres, especially in a large church where there are talented musicians in the congregation. The ability to sing or play is a gift from God and should be used to praise Him! Yes, lyrics must always be theologically correct and should have varied themes. In my church the hymns correspond with the subject matter of the sermon. (If the sermon's on God's grace, we sing songs like "Amazing Grace," "How Great Thou Art" or "Blessed Assurance.")

There must be a balance between the "me-n-Jesus" songs and songs that speak of His majesty and His sacrifice and of Christian living. I think this is accomplished by correlating the songs with the subject matter of the sermon as long as the the Pastor is preaching on the whole counsel of Scripture: that he doesn't avoid the hard topics such as sin, repentance, discipleship and stewardship. This doesn't mean the Pastor preaches on every subject every Sunday, but that he preaches on discipleship, sacrifice and living in community as well as "me-n-Jesus." The hymns (regardless of genre) would reflect and reinforce the teaching in the sermons accordingly.


Very nice post, Elysian. :thumb:

[adam.naranjo]

Hello, God wrote his own songbook...It's called the Psalms. For nearly 2000 years the Church sang the Psalms. (yes they sang other songs as well, mostly based on the Psalms). Even during the years of the rise of hymns churches still sang mostly Psalms.

For more on the Psalm singing reformation check out this book, "From Silence to Song: The Davidic Liturgical Revolution" (http://http://www.cmfnow.com/product.asp?0=339&1=343&3=10199)

You can also find full Psalm songbooks online for free

[Maxentius]

I think this is accomplished by correlating the songs with the subject matter of the sermon as long as the the Pastor is preaching on the whole counsel of Scripture: that he doesn't avoid the hard topics such as sin, repentance, discipleship and stewardship.

This ties in directly with the idea of balance many here have been speaking of. I also think that if a pastor does not preach the whole council of Scripture, music is the least of a congregation's problems!

But now that I think about it, I do think there may be a cause and effect relationship. Poor music, over time, will affect a congregation's theology/beliefs. The same goes for poor preaching.

Now here is another thought, a hymn is a form of preaching! Since it is part of the worship service it is part of the teaching office of the church.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Very nice post, Elysian. :thumb:
I agree. So much so that I made it my POTD.

[themuzicman]

Now here is another thought, a hymn is a form of preaching! Since it is part of the worship service it is part of the teaching office of the church.

Make up your mind: Is it preaching or teaching?

Michael

[adam.naranjo]

The Psalms are God's perfect example...David talked about himself all the time. I think God is cool with the worship he wrote.

Check out this worship song...

Psalm 139:19-24
O that Thou wouldst slay the wicked, O God;
Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed.
For they speak against Thee wickedly,
And Thine enemies take Thy name in vain.
Do I not hate those who hate Thee, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against Thee?
I hate them with the utmost hatred;
They have become my enemies.
Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
And see if there be any hurtful way in me,
And lead me in the everlastin