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Aseity

June 14th 2004, 12:23 PM

Music In The Churches

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Articles dealing with:

Music in the Churches
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~rseaborn/music.html

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One of the hottest topics in Christendom today is to do with music in the churches. Some, particularly the young and those of a Charismatic persuasion, say that music is neutral and that there is no such thing as good music or bad music. But what does the Bible teach? Perhaps we should ask ourselves the question, "What constitutes good and acceptable Christian Music? Is it possible to offend God with our praise and worship if it is accompanied with a particular type of music?" From what I read in the Scriptures, as well as from what I read from the pens of good and godly Bible teachers, I believe we need to be cautious that we are not found guilty of calling evil good, and good evil?

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:20-21).

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[ The Lord's Profits ] (Added 04/01/2003) A revealing article about Brian and Bobbie Houston and Hillsong, written by Sydney Morning Herald reporter, Greg Bearup. This article appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald on Thursday, 30 January, 2003. "Come out from among them and be ye separate!" saith the Lord.

[ World Worship ] (Added 04/01/2003) From the 4th through to the 7th of September, 2002, with great excitement amongst the local Christian community, Hillsong was the main attraction at the “World of Worship” Conference at the Cairns Convention Centre. A single-page, three-fold leaflet was produced by this ministry and distributed locally. It warned of the dangers of Hillsong generally, as well as the type of music they offer to God, supposedly as praise and worship. The contents of the leaflet is the subject of this article.

[ "End Times Apostasy Database" Music Section ] Link to David Cloud's Way Of Life Website - (Added 29/03/02) Articles that are available on David's site are hyperlinked. The complete End Times Apostasy Database contains roughly 3,000 books and articles and the equivalent of 80,000 pages of information. It is available in the Fundamental Baptist CD-ROM Library. Only a small part of it is maintained at the Way of Life web site.

[ Some Thoughts about Incidental Music on Television ] Linked Article - (Added 29/03/02). An article on the Bob Jones University site, written by Elmer Rumminger, M.A., who observes that, "Enlightened fundamentalist parents teach their children to enjoy good music and warn them to avoid the destructive influence of rock and its associated drug/sex/rebellion subculture. A few ill-informed, albeit perhaps well-meaning, believers tolerate some "soft" rock--especially with "Christian" lyrics--but even most of these would forbid their children from watching the music channel, Friday Night Videos, and the like."

[ An Important Question for Our Times-Is Music Moral? ] Linked Article - (Added 29/03/02). An article by Kurt Woetzel, minister of music at Trinity Baptist Church of Concord, New Hampshire, who asks, "Is music neutral? Is sound capable of moral influence? Does music alone, with or without text, carry and communicate moral value? Is music amoral? The answer to this watershed question divides much of the Christian community and greatly influences the character of the music which may be heard in a particular church."

[ Building a Biblical Church Music Ministry ] Linked Article - (Added 29/03/02) Written by Dr. J. Drew Conley of Kennerly Road Baptist Church, Irmo, South Carolina, who writes, "The questions our church often receives from those looking for a church home suggest that the music a church uses matters to people. More importantly, the many Scriptures on music demonstrate that it matters to God."

[ What Is Rock Music? ] Linked Article - (Added 30/03/02) An article outlining some of the history of Rock Music, comments about the effects of Rock Music on their audiences made by some well known artists, the disturbing results of some scientific experiments on plants and animals which were subjected to Rock Music, and the author's conclusions about Rock Music when examined in the Light of Scripture.

[ Contemporary Christian Music - Is It Wrong? ] Linked Article - (Added 30/03/02) An article by Dr. Rob Spinney who uses Philippians 4:8 to determine the criteria for evaluating Contemporary Christian Music. Also includes the testimonies of a number of young Christians who tell of the negative influence that CCM had upon their Christian walk.

[ What Kind of Music Does God Want Us To Have? ] Linked Audio - (Added 29/03/02). Two audio messages by Dr Frank Garlock, founder of Majesty Music in Greenville, South Carolina, recorded at Bob Jones University.

[ Sound Christian Music vs Contemporary Christian Music ] Linked Audio - (Added 29/03/02). Three audio messages by David Cloud. Sound Biblical exposition of God's standard for music in the churches.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~rseaborn/music.html

Calvinist4Him

June 14th 2004, 01:26 PM

Aseity

June 15th 2004, 06:46 AM

I'm just curious as to how you would respond to John Frame's book "Contemporary Worship Music: A Biblical Defense"? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0875522122/qid=1087230056/sr=8-5/ref=pd_ka_5/104-8997573-6308751?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Tread lightly my friend...there are Calvinists like me who are also charismatic...and as the saying goes "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater"!

Tread lightly over what, my friend? I was in the Pentecostal/Charismatic Church for many years in a couple of Countries, including the Four Square Church as a welfare worker in a crisis center for homeless men they ran, in fellowship in the AOG and New Life Churches and the Elim Churches. Been there done that. Seen all the slaining in the spirits and what not and other carry on's, including my pastor having it off with the secretary in his office. He was a great one for all the praise and worship on a Sunday morning with great speakings loudly in tongues etc.

What I am *NOT* attacking is the theocentric, God centered praise and worship. I am not attacking the genuine, I am attacking the false with all my might.

I am attacking the false and there sure is a lot of the false in the Church today, I can tell you, charismatic or not! Including the man centered money making racket unto the ears of God, Hillsong. Might be nice and tickling ears for people but to God it is a roar in His ears and He is angry. There is no FEAR of God at Hillsong and many places like it around the western world and beamed into third world countries by TV, misleading *MILLIONS* and there is no HOLINES in places like Hillsong and around the world. God is angry with the wicked every day and many of these places are full to overflowing of degenerate unrepentant wicked sinners going there just to have a cool and awesome (NOT fear and dread, but groovy) feel great time. Whitewashed tombs full of dead mens bones. Looks nice on the outside but the inside is a black mess. All with the lastest gear on and hairstyles and ear and lip and tongue and navel piercings and glistening studs and girls dressed to kill with those low slung jeans and midriff showing, breasts partially revealed etc etc etc. And all the young men are in church with a self concious bulge down the front and eyes darting two and fro.

I have not read John Frame's book, but it looks good. Have you read "Whatever Happened To The Gospel Of Grace? Rediscovering The Doctrines That Shook The World". by James Montgomery Boice? It is great and has an excellent chapter called, "Reforming Our Worship."

Have you read this?:

Pleasing God In Our Worship

Dr. Robert Godfrey

ONE

Worship Wars

You may have heard the story of two men debating issues of worship. They had quite different ideas on the subject and were unable to persuade one another. At the end of the frustrating discussion one of the men said to the other, “Well, you worship God in your way, and I will worship him in his.”

We may smile at that comment, but we need to remember how varied are the forms of worship that churches have practiced and how vehement debate over worship sometimes has been. The debate over the use of icons in the eighth and ninth centuries led to violence in the Eastern church. Differences over worship in the sixteenth century were part of what divided Protestant from Roman Catholic Christianity, a division that continues to our day.

Among contemporary Protestants we find significant differences in worship. Some forms of worship are filled with formal ceremony and ritual, while others are very casual and informal. Some are noisy and boisterous, while others are quiet and contemplative. Some take place in beautiful cathedrals, while others occur in warehouses or fields. In the midst of such diversity Christians sometimes ask if worship is simply a matter of taste. Are all forms of worship equally pleasing to God as long as the worshipers are sincere? Or are some ways of worship acceptable and others not?

The question of what pleases God in worship comes with special urgency in our time since in the last few decades American Protestants have seen more changes in worship forms than in any similar period since the sixteenth century The result is that some congregations and denominations have experienced serious conflicts over worship. Churches have split and individuals have moved from congregation to congregation, all over different views of worship.

Some of the differences over worship seem rather superficial though they may generate heated debates.

Should we use a songbook or an overhead projector?
Should we sit on pews or folding chairs?
More serious differences have led to what some have called the “worship wars” of our time.

What style of music should we use?
What kind of instruments should we play?
How should we pray?
What kind of preaching is appropriate?
Often these differences rest on the question of whether services should be oriented to the unchurched visitor or the faithful church member.

Differences over worship can also reflect quite different theologies and methodologies in the Christian community. For that reason the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals briefly addressed the issue of worship in its Cambridge Declaration. The Declaration stated as its basic concern: “Evangelical churches today are increasingly dominated by the spirit of this age rather than by the Spirit of Christ. As evangelicals, we call ourselves to repent of this sin and to recover the historic Christian faith.”

The Declaration then expanded on this concern in relation to the great themes of the Protestant.

TWO

The Need for True Worship
Continue here:
http://www.the-highway.com/worship_Godfrey.html

Have you gone through the articles above?

rmwilliamsjr

June 15th 2004, 11:11 AM

anyone who quotes R.Godfrey and J.Frame in the same message can't be all bad *grin*
John Frame took a lot of flack for the book _Contemporary Worship Music_
and not just from the exclusive psalmody right wing but from the center as well.

there is a nice disagreement with him at:
http://www.btinternet.com/~s.j.mackay/blq/articles/cwm.html

thanks for Dr Godfrey's link, it is well worth reading.

Aseity

June 15th 2004, 11:24 AM

Your'e welcome, Cobber.

:)

Soli Deo Gloria

Aseity

Calvinist4Him

June 18th 2004, 05:06 AM

Tread lightly over what, my friend? I was in the Pentecostal/Charismatic Church for many years in a couple of Countries, including the Four Square Church as a welfare worker in a crisis center for homeless men they ran, in fellowship in the AOG and New Life Churches and the Elim Churches. Been there done that.

Been there done that? Have you ever prophecied, spoken in tongues, or given an interpretation of the tongues? I'm just curious...personally, I have NEVER prophecied, spoken in tongues, or given an interpretation of tongues, but I know people who have, and I do believe even the difficult-to-accept gifts are active in the body of Christ today by the power of God the Holy Spirit. I have attended many a Sun. and Wed. at AOG Churches, the Church of God denomination, and I have attended a New Life Church a few times. I too can say I have "been there and done that".

Seen all the slaining in the spirits and what not and other carry on's, including my pastor having it off with the secretary in his office. He was a great one for all the praise and worship on a Sunday morning with great speakings loudly in tongues etc.

Carrying on's? I'm sorry to hear about what your pastor was doing, I'm very sorry to hear that (having went through a number of pastors in my lifetime), but do you honestly think that just because one man is found to be a fraud, that all of the same denomination are fraud's or that because a man sins, God will not use him? Is it ok if a pastor is caught doing the nasty with the secretary just as long as he doesn't also speak in tongues? Of course not, we both know that, and I only asked the question for balance for perspective because pastors of other denominations have done the same. Your (former?) pastor's marital unfaithfulness or fornication doesn't nulify the genuine gifts of God. I know there is a counterfit, I know that within Pentacostalism there is fare too much unsound even false doctrine going around (Oneness, Word of Faith). I know that there are imposters, phonies, and many, many, "religious" people, those who have religion...or a religious appearance, but do not know or belong to Christ. Aseity, I stopped attending Church alltogether because of the Assemblies of God denomination. I have no plans on ever going back to the AOG, and the non-discerning leadership running the denomination has been the cause of much grief for me and my family. I do not say this lightly when I say the AOG has moved dangerously close to Romanism...I am referring to the importance and emphasis on...money. But I have made similar observations with other denominations...and I refuse to be manipulated and fed "spiritual junkfood" anymore. I refuse to be "spiritually abused", and have witnessed the harmful effects of spiritual abuse.

Finally, a few years later, God has helped me to learn and grow and retain more than I thought possible and continues to help me learn more as I study, God opened my eyes to the reformed faith and I am finally at a point where I want to find a solid reformed Church in my area...

What I am *NOT* attacking is the theocentric, God centered praise and worship. I am not attacking the genuine, I am attacking the false with all my might.

...even so, I have not and will not tear out 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 from the English translations of the Scriptures I own. I know that many of the reformed faith may not agree with my plain and simple literal interpretation concerning the spiritual gifts, but I will take God at His word, whether I like it or not. I am with you Aseity in attacking the false, in defending the truth, in bringing glory and honor to Christ, in defending the honor of Christ.

I am attacking the false and there sure is a lot of the false in the Church today, I can tell you, charismatic or not!

Not just alot of false, but probably closer to mostly false! :shocked:

Including the man centered money making racket unto the ears of God, Hillsong. Might be nice and tickling ears for people but to God it is a roar in His ears and He is angry. There is no FEAR of God at Hillsong and many places like it around the western world and beamed into third world countries by TV, misleading *MILLIONS* and there is no HOLINES in places like Hillsong and around the world.

I'm not really "in the know" concerning Hillsong, all I know is that the song "Shout to the Lord" became popular in Churches here in America...that's about the extent of what I know. I cannot agree or disagree with you about Hillsong, simply because I'm uninformed and havn't paid any close attention to the lyrics in their songs.

God is angry with the wicked every day and many of these places are full to overflowing of degenerate unrepentant wicked sinners going there just to have a cool and awesome (NOT fear and dread, but groovy) feel great time. Whitewashed tombs full of dead mens bones. Looks nice on the outside but the inside is a black mess.

As much as I hate to say it....in many cases, I agree. :eek: If there is one thing I appreciate in a person it's genuiness...people who rarely "put on a show" or "fake it"...people who are themselves...be they happy...or sad...or whatever. Through the years, God made me into a skeptical Christian. He has given me discernment for sensing a fraud. This discernment God so graceously grants me with, is made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't know how to decribe the discernment of the Holy Spirit except that the discernment works kind of like a radar.

In a feeble effort to balance what you mentioned above...

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

All with the lastest gear on and hairstyles and ear and lip and tongue and navel piercings and glistening studs and girls dressed to kill with those low slung jeans and midriff showing, breasts partially revealed etc etc etc. And all the young men are in church with a self concious bulge down the front and eyes darting two and fro.

Part of me sometimes like seeing those partially revealed breasts. :teeth: I'm fairly liberal about the outside appearance of people. I one of the errors of early Pentacostalism was the overemphasis and overly strict...even legalistic dress codes. Women were required to wear a dress that was so long, men had to wear long sleeves, women had to wear long hair, and men had to wear short hair. If what I've heard is correct, in the early days the Pentacostal Church discouraged Christians from watching movies. Personally, dress codes are fine and dandy, but I think the damage of legalism within the Church is a shame. Again, I don't have a problem with reasonable dress codes, but I must part ways with legalism.

I have not read John Frame's book, but it looks good.

I havn't read it either (but the title is a dead giveaway), however I know that Frame is reformed, and that your reformed and wanted readers to know that Aseity doesn't speak for everyone in the reformed camp. :wink:

Have you read "Whatever Happened To The Gospel Of Grace? Rediscovering The Doctrines That Shook The World". by James Montgomery Boice? It is great and has an excellent chapter called, "Reforming Our Worship."

Nope I havn't, but I've heard of James Montogemery Boice through R.C. Sproul's Ligionier Ministries. R.C. Sproul happens to be one of my favorite philosophers/apologists/theologians.

Have you read this?:

Pleasing God In Our Worship

Dr. Robert Godfrey

ONE

Worship Wars

You may have heard the story of two men debating issues of worship. They had quite different ideas on the subject and were unable to persuade one another. At the end of the frustrating discussion one of the men said to the other, “Well, you worship God in your way, and I will worship him in his.”

We may smile at that comment, but we need to remember how varied are the forms of worship that churches have practiced and how vehement debate over worship sometimes has been. The debate over the use of icons in the eighth and ninth centuries led to violence in the Eastern church. Differences over worship in the sixteenth century were part of what divided Protestant from Roman Catholic Christianity, a division that continues to our day.

Among contemporary Protestants we find significant differences in worship. Some forms of worship are filled with formal ceremony and ritual, while others are very casual and informal. Some are noisy and boisterous, while others are quiet and contemplative. Some take place in beautiful cathedrals, while others occur in warehouses or fields. In the midst of such diversity Christians sometimes ask if worship is simply a matter of taste. Are all forms of worship equally pleasing to God as long as the worshipers are sincere? Or are some ways of worship acceptable and others not?

The question of what pleases God in worship comes with special urgency in our time since in the last few decades American Protestants have seen more changes in worship forms than in any similar period since the sixteenth century The result is that some congregations and denominations have experienced serious conflicts over worship. Churches have split and individuals have moved from congregation to congregation, all over different views of worship.

Some of the differences over worship seem rather superficial though they may generate heated debates.

Should we use a songbook or an overhead projector?
Should we sit on pews or folding chairs?
More serious differences have led to what some have called the “worship wars” of our time.

What style of music should we use?
What kind of instruments should we play?
How should we pray?
What kind of preaching is appropriate?
Often these differences rest on the question of whether services should be oriented to the unchurched visitor or the faithful church member.

Differences over worship can also reflect quite different theologies and methodologies in the Christian community. For that reason the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals briefly addressed the issue of worship in its Cambridge Declaration. The Declaration stated as its basic concern: “Evangelical churches today are increasingly dominated by the spirit of this age rather than by the Spirit of Christ. As evangelicals, we call ourselves to repent of this sin and to recover the historic Christian faith.”

The Declaration then expanded on this concern in relation to the great themes of the Protestant.

TWO

The Need for True Worship
Continue here:
http://www.the-highway.com/worship_Godfrey.html

Have you gone through the articles above?

Thanks for the quote above. :thumb:

Apollos

June 20th 2004, 12:05 PM

Abigail

June 20th 2004, 12:08 PM

Instruments in worship are not authorized.

Is contraception authorized?

nomad7674

June 20th 2004, 12:19 PM

Those who approach scripture from an authoratative viewpoint (that is, scripture tells us what is and what is not authorized for NT worship) realize that only vocal music should be allowed in worhsip today. Instruments in worship are not authorized.

I have not read your stuff before, Apollos, so I am not sure where you are coming from. But I am interested where in scripture this idea comes from, and how you deal with the verse below? (Though you do say NT worship, and the verse in not in the New Testament.)

1 Praise the LORD . [1]

Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD .

nomad7674

June 20th 2004, 12:48 PM

I have not read your stuff before, Apollos, so I am not sure where you are coming from.

Apollos,

Well, that'll teach me to ask first and do research second. I see that you covered much of this in a recent thread: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11028. Apologies in advance for any bolding/emphasis lost in the cut-n-paste. Also apologies for double-posting, but it seemed like this would save us all time in the discussion.

From Apollos:
In regards to the use of the OT....I do not use the OT as a source of authority for how I engage in worship, etc. As the writer of Hebrews tells us we are under a new covenant. Paul does tell us in Romans 15:4 that the OT is still useful. One of the ways that it is useful is that it demonstrates to us the character of God. One of these characteristics is that He demands silence in areas where He has not spoken. Hence the reason why I posted those verses from the OT.

From another poster in the same thread:
don’t know what scripture references you are talking about. However, since the subject of this thread has to do with what kind of music is authorized in NT worship let me just list all the NT scriptures that say anything at all about music in worship:
• Matthew 26:30 “…when they had sung an hymn…”
• Mark 14:26 “…when they had sung an hymn…”
• Acts 16:25 “…sang praises unto God…”
• Rom. 15:9 “…sing unto thy name…”
• 1Cor. 14:15 “…I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.”
• Eph. 5:19 “…singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.”
• Col. 3:16 “…singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
• Heb. 2:12 “…in the midst of the church I will sing praise unto thee.”
• James 5:13 “…let him sing psalms.”
I’m not going to put these verses into any context… I'll let you do that. All I can say with certainty is that they authorize singing in worship to God. If you can explain how the context alters this somehow, then that’s what I’m waiting to hear.

From Apollos in the same thread:
As for "psalm" requiring the actual playing of an instrument, Thayer's definition has quite a different opinion as to the necessity of an instrument being needed...

(Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16) -"...the phrase is used of one who has it in his heart to sing or recite a song of the sort..."

It looks as if context will once again determine the true meaning of a word and how it is being used

Again from Apollos in the same thread:
I believe I can fulfill the “sing” command by singing – high or low, fast or slow, etc. – as long as it is singing. But “playing” is not the same type of music – this is a different type of music (mechanical) – which cannot be done “in the heart”.

Had Paul instructed “make music”, ALL music would have been included. But the specific Paul used was “sing” and the context does not include/allow any other type of music

More from Apollos in the same thread:
Is the inclusion of mechanical music authorized in scripture?? Please see my previous comments, if necessary, about expedients. They must FIRST be authorized – and then they must edify. Instruments in worship do not meet both of the these criteria! And then the matter remains over “the speaking one to another” as well as this being accomplished “in the heart”. (Check Thayer’s definition as supplied previously.

More from Apollos, same bat-channel, same bat-thread:
The only question that needs to be pursued here is…

Do Col. 3:16 and/or Eph. 5:19 authorize MECHANICAL music for worship??

For reference:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,

I think this probably is the last quote needed to finish out Apollos's points. Him again,same thread:
You missed my points last time and the double standard is yours for your trying to limit me to LESS than the passage allows. The passages (Col. 3:16 & Eph. 5:19) allow SINGING and they allow “speaking”. When it says “in the heart”, it is telling us from where (the source) the singing/melody is to come from – the heart. I never said that these passage do allow music or that “we can’t use music”. I am saying these passages allow VOCAL music but do not allow (authorize) any mechanical music!

Let me know if I missed any key issues in your argument. I just figured since you already had explained your argument well in the other thread, there was no reason for me to force you to reiterate it.

Apollos

June 20th 2004, 02:45 PM

Abigail -

Contraception ?? I don't know about you but nothing my church practices in reference to New Testament worship requires contraception. Perhaps this would have been a matter for the church at Corinth in Paul's day... lol!

But... what concerns me with your reply is your reasoning.

Basically you reasoned - We do not have authority for contraception, why do we need it for instruments in worship? Your conclusion was - We don't!

But you have mixed apples with tangerines. When it comes to the religious practices & teachings of the NT church, the church MUST have authority from it King for all that it does !! Otherwise, why does it matter... just do as you please !

Apollos

June 20th 2004, 02:46 PM

Nomad -

Thankx for the help! I was just passing thru today.

I hope you and yours are well and doing fine!

Abigail

June 20th 2004, 03:02 PM

Abigail -

Contraception ?? I don't know about you but nothing my church practices in reference to New Testament worship requires contraception. Perhaps this would have been a matter for the church at Corinth in Paul's day... lol! ah ha very slick

But... what concerns me with your reply is your reasoning.

Basically you reasoned - We do not have authority for contraception, why do we need it for instruments in worship? Your conclusion was - We don't!

But you have mixed apples with tangerines. When it comes to the religious practices & teachings of the NT church, the church MUST have authority from it King for all that it does !! Otherwise, why does it matter... just do as you please !
Paul gave us instruction on marriage didnt he? If he didnt mention contraception is it authorised

Octavius

July 14th 2004, 03:30 PM

NonTrinitarian

July 15th 2004, 11:13 AM

What we find in the NT are specific references to things that changed. IE, it is mentioned in the NT that sacrifices other than Christ's are no longer valid. Circumcision is no longer valid. Not eating certain meats was no loner valid. Sabbaths are no longer valid. What we do NOT find is any reference to the very common practice of using music in worship in the OT not being allowed in the NT. So how did these people know it was wrong? Where was it written at? The NT writer's didn't feel it was enough to just not mention sabbaths, etc in hopes that we would say 'Well it's not mentioned in the NT so it's not authorized.' They specifically set out to tell us what changed. The common practice of singing to God with instrumental music wasn't just striken from the minds of Christians at baptism.

Rahab

July 19th 2004, 02:09 PM

Dear ppl,

This topic is dear to my heart. I too was in the Charismatic Church (raised in it in fact) but became Reformed in my early 20's. I became convinced that music was very important and as I studied the matter, I became a psalms only man with no instruments. This will no doubt seem strange to many, but it is the way I find worship best expressed. I am now a pastor (student minister) in a Reformed Presbyterian Church where we sing only the Psalms. I love it.

Kind regards,

Octavius
www.apcvan.ca/Jerblog (http://www.apcvan.ca/Jerblog)
:pray:
Bonjour Octavius..... your statement "but it is the way I find worship best expressed" points us to what each believer may prefer in his or her personal form of worship of Christ. IMO, it is important to not set a legalistic restriction to how each christian will allow his or her spirit to express to God his or her adoration. The reality being that the recipient of our worship in music is God, a God who is perfectly capable of scrutinizing and valuing our INTENT as we worship Him.
One also needs to acknoweldge the cultural environment of a body of believers. My brothers and sisters from Ghana would have a hard time controlling their natural exhuberance and outwardness in worship in your church for example.

While stationned in Naples, Italy, I was able to attend various churches from different cultural backgrounds ranging from a majority of African attendees, to an Italian Messianic church to a more conventional American Mission.

The worship in music was quite different from one to the other. The Messianic Church had included a strong judaic influence, singing hymns in Hebrew and utilizing non modern instruments. (not that they prohibited to use of modern instruments). The African Apostolic Church I attended would expand up to 3 hours their worship service and frankly I did not see the time pass by! They danced and sang to the Lord at their heart's content. Drums being predominant. It was quite spontaneous. The US Missions followed their denominational worship forms. All in all, each experience for me was very inspirational. I will admit that I was very "taken" by the Messianic Church because it somehow placed me back in NT times enhancing the very culture of Christ.

I do not struggle with different forms of musical worship because I was exposed since early childhood to so many different cultures. Being born and raised in Africa, I was already familiar with the strong presence of music and singing in the daily lives of Africans. Spontaneous expression is part of their identity.

I can equaly be overwhelmed with a sense of awe listening to the Great Organs leading a service in a cathedral. Or a "Be thou My Vision" interpreted by a soloist. Or a cantor singing parts of Psalms in Hebrew.

Rahab

July 19th 2004, 02:21 PM

ah ha very slick

Paul gave us instruction on marriage didnt he? If he didnt mention contraception is it authorised
Bonjour Abigail.... perhaps Paul had no sufficient medical knowledge to know that conception could be planned and delayed. I think it is important to realize that the Bible is not a "handy book of medecine".
From what the 4 Gospels relate and if one places the words of Christ as being the focus, Christ did not seem to be so concerned over which instrument one would use to accompany oneself. I believe the Lord appreciated the judaic culture He came from and did not intend to reform that culture to the point that there must be defined rules to control how one would worship Him in singing and music. He had "bigger fish to fry".

Spiritus Naturae

December 29th 2004, 02:23 AM

I am amused that there is so much debate on the type and proper use of "music" for NT worship today. Being one that believes any type of mechanical/instrumental music is inappropriate/wrong in worship today, it is interesting that those who have let such music "through the door", want to fuss about which and what types are proper. Unfortunately none of you have any stopping place now - it is open season. The only points that can be made are based solely on your own taste and discretion

Those who approach scripture from an authoratative viewpoint (that is, scripture tells us what is and what is not authorized for NT worship) realize that only vocal music should be allowed in worhsip today. Instruments in worship are not authorized.

(Now, what to do about those that sing flat...)

...(translating for Apollos)In other words, mechanical/instrumental music in 'corporate worship' is a sin and an abomination to the LORD. If your church has so much as a guitar or harmonica in it's worship, get out now! :uneasy: God's wrath is upon you!

Although He sure did like musical instruments at one time...:huh:

Tell me, Apollos, where does your congregation get their 'psalms, hymns and spiritual songs'? I hope the source is not from outside of the New Testament...

Lone Stranger

January 10th 2005, 03:29 PM

In reference to the origin of this thread, the question seems to be....What does God prefer in worship. Since worship, ever corporate worship, begins in the heart, I believe that He is focussing on that. I have to admit that I go to a Vineyard church that uses what I call soft rock worship songs. They are frequently beautiful, but lack the lyrical depth and melodic beauty of some of the traditional hymns. I also am somewhat distracted and even irritated by the
"Hey, Hey whatdoya say
I love Jesus every day"
&

Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord, Yes, Yes, Lord

I want lyrics that speak to the truth and glorify the trinity, and I want some poetic artistry. But, frankly, what I want is not the issue; it's where is my heart whereever I go to worship. I can worship with a pipe organ. I can worship with a bluegrass band. I can worship avacado. It is the place of my heart in relation to God that is the main issue. Other aspects, though valid for discussion, are icing on the cake. The heart is the cake.