Question about Islam

[TuckEverlasting]

It is often said that Muslims are allowed to lie for the cause of Islam. Is this true, or is it a half-truth, or is it blatantly false? If it is true, can you give me a more detailed explanation (including, for example, cites from the Koran or Hadith)?

[WebToaster]

It is often said that Muslims are allowed to lie for the cause of Islam. Is this true, or is it a half-truth, or is it blatantly false? If it is true, can you give me a more detailed explanation (including, for example, cites from the Koran or Hadith)?
Actually, isn't this most often said of Christians?
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Of course, if the verse is read in context, its obvious Paul isn't instructing people to lie for the glory of God, but couple this with some of Eusebius' or Jerome's writings, and the accusations fly. I suspect that any Qur'an or Hadith verses you find that appear to justify lies, will be much the same as Romans 3:7.

Throughout both the Qur'an and books of the Hadith, there is a prohibition on the telling of falsehoods, gossip, suspicion and backbiting. The prohibition on backbiting can be weighed against the cause of Islam, but I haven't seen anything teaching that "pious lies" are acceptable for the cause of Islam.

[shunyadragon]

It is often said that Muslims are allowed to lie for the cause of Islam. Is this true, or is it a half-truth, or is it blatantly false? If it is true, can you give me a more detailed explanation (including, for example, cites from the Koran or Hadith)?I would be interested in the source of 'it is often said'.

My experience with Moslems, of which I have had many friends over the years, is that lieing was absolutely forbidden.

[bhukkadakota]

theres a bit in the OT where god sends abraham to egypt because his people have some food shortages. And god tells abraham to tell the pharoah that his wife is his sister so the pharoah wouldnt kill abraham. Sneaky one, god is.

[TuckEverlasting]

I suspect that any Qur'an or Hadith verses you find that appear to justify lies, will be much the same as Romans 3:7.

I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt as well, but that's why I asked.

but I haven't seen anything teaching that "pious lies" are acceptable for the cause of Islam.
I would be interested in the source of 'it is often said'.

Typically, the places I've heard it are less than scholarly and/or obviously hold a grudge against Muslims in general, which was why I wanted to know if there was any serious basis for it.

However, the practice as I have heard about it is called taqiyya or dissembling. If you do a Google search for taqiyya, you will find many sites. Some of them seem to treat the issue fairly, like this (http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/T/taqiya.html) one, while others are obviously biased, like this (http://hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/koran5.html) one. I'm just interested to hear an informed, objective account (if such a thing exists).

My experience with Moslems, of which I have had many friends over the years, is that lieing was absolutely forbidden.

Oh, I believe you, don't worry.

[WebToaster]

However, the practice as I have heard about it is called taqiyya or dissembling. If you do a Google search for taqiyya, you will find many sites. Some of them seem to treat the issue fairly, like this (http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/T/taqiya.html) one, while others are obviously biased, like this (http://hauns.com/%7EDCQu4E5g/koran5.html) one. I'm just interested to hear an informed, objective account (if such a thing exists).
I'm disappointed in the article from Answering Islam, the articles from that site I've read in the past aren't quite as misleading. They list one quote from the Qur'an, which doesn't even get close to endorsing pious lies. And the other two references are from footnotes in Shia tradition.

This would be like me posting Peter's denial of Christ, and then posting statements from Eusebius or Jerome and drawing some conclusions about lies within Christianity.

[ali420]

Islam does not allow you to lie under any circumstances no matter what, not even when you are about to be killed and lieing just might save your life.

Tuqiyah, is a concept which shia heretics have abused and formulated a new kind of doctrine which is alien to Islam, the the orthordox sunnis reject the shia concept of Tuqiyah. Basicly shias beleive that to hide their religion is one half of there religion, so when ever they are asked they say we beleive this rather then tell the truth. They lie to make there religion look good, hide to cover their faults, according to their philosophy of Tuqiyah its perfectly legal to do such a thing, to tell out right lies.

The sunni's reject this unmindfull lieing altogather, according to the sunnis, the concept of Tuqiyah is not to lie to to give a sign which could mean two things, rather then tell straight forward answer where your life is in danger. Forexample Muhammed (pbuh) was migrating to Madina with his friend Abu Bakr, while Muhammed (pbuh) was disguised, one of the pagan patrol guards stoped Abu Bakr, and asked him who is with him? He replied I am a travler and this man here is to show me the straight path. The pagans thought he ment that he is just another person who is going out of Mekkah and the person with him is there to guide him to the new desination, after all they didnt have maps at that time, so some people where professional trackers. But what Abu Bakr ment was I am a traveler in this world, going to the next world, and here this man is a prophet who is here to make sure i go my destination by fallowing the straight path. "Show us the straight path" is found in the first chapter of the Quran, so he barrowed a little from there.

Another incident is that in Quran, when prophet Ibrahim, broke the statues, and the people of his tribe asked him, who broke the statues, if he told them the truth, they would have killed him, so he raises his thumb, and says ask the big one. The polythiests thought he is reffering to the big statue, and they replied but they cant speak (he proved his point why they shouldnt pray to statues, because they are lifeless and unable to defend them selves, so how can they benefit the ones who pray to them). But on the other hand what prophet Ibrahim really meant was that I did it, and he indicated this by raising his thumb, and saying ask the big one.

This is not lieing, this is playing on the minds of people, you are not lieing, you are stating something which has two meanings, but this is not allowed at every situation, or just for fun, it is clear from these two examples that even this is allowed in the most extreme situation where you life is in danger.

While shia heretics practice something which is not based on Quran, they practice out right lieing. And Sam Shamoun is a total fag, I asked him to debate me on any doctrine of Bible, live on a plat form or on pal Talk, but he reffuses.

Much of the material on answering-Islam is bogus, and even a kid with no brain can reffute Sam Shamoun. Only thing which Answering-Islam has is quantity, they churnout trash on trash every week, either quoting Christians missionaries, who aggree with them, they quote people like Ali Dashti, who was a atheist, but quote him because his name gives the impression that he is Muslim.

On other hand Paul the liar confesses that he told lies just to make Jesus look good, thats without any need, just to champion his faith. For more on Christianity telling lies please visit bismikaallahuma.org

I hope that answers your question.

Ali

[ali420]

"I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt as well, but that's why I asked."

No need for show mercy, its not needed. Secondly it hardly practical to be leneint to others when you have very same fault in your own Bible, it shows two things, if it wasn't Paul confessing to telling lies to glorify Jesus, you would have been blowing your self loudly and condeming Islam for telling lies, but since there is fault in your own Bible you are willing to be nice to us, something like, you dont tell us we are wrong and we wont tell you are wrong, lets comprimise on this. This is not very honest and objective, if something is wrong it needs to be criticised, no matter from where it is comming from.

Tuqiyah I have already explained what it really is, and you are yet to explain Pauls lieing, for which there can not be any good explaination, even if you try.

Ali

[Raptor]

On other hand Paul the liar confesses that he told lies just to make Jesus look good, thats without any need, just to champion his faith. For more on Christianity telling lies please visit bismikaallahuma.org

I hope that answers your question.

Ali

Of course we're all a bunch of liars.....:noid:

Why can't we get along and have a reasonable discussion about this. If you noticed ali, look at what is said here by Webtoaster.

Actually, isn't this most often said of Christians?
Romans 3:7 (KJV)
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?


Of course, if the verse is read in context, its obvious Paul isn't instructing people to lie for the glory of God, but couple this with some of Eusebius' or Jerome's writings, and the accusations fly. I suspect that any Qur'an or Hadith verses you find that appear to justify lies, will be much the same as Romans 3:7.

Throughout both the Qur'an and books of the Hadith, there is a prohibition on the telling of falsehoods, gossip, suspicion and backbiting. The prohibition on backbiting can be weighed against the cause of Islam, but I haven't seen anything teaching that "pious lies" are acceptable for the cause of Islam.




So just sit back and relax a little. No one's accusing Islam of anything.

[FirstSunday33ad]

theres a bit in the OT where god sends abraham to egypt because his people have some food shortages. And god tells abraham to tell the pharoah that his wife is his sister so the pharoah wouldnt kill abraham. Sneaky one, god is.

No there is not. Excuse me, but Abraham lies to Pharaoh on his own inititive and Pharaoh gets quite upset with him about it.

Gen 12:

10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you."
14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman. 15 And when Pharaoh's officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels.
17 But the LORD inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram's wife Sarai. 18 So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, 'She is my sister,' so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!" 20 Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had.


Where I come from saying something about someone that isn't true is called libel.

[ali420]

[i]Of course we're all a bunch of liars.....
Why can't we get along and have a reasonable discussion about this. If you noticed ali, what is said here by Tuck.[i]

The reason is that, weather you are willing to comprimise or not is irrelevent to me. I can not comprimise anything which my religion forbids, Islam says Liars have to be condemed and punished for their lies, so I am just doing that.

And if i tell a lie, its a lie and its bad, you do it its bad, but if the founders of Religion do it its the worst thing. It will prove two things, you cant trust them, they could have lied about everything or somethings, and unless they tell you what they lied about you cant beleive them, and even when they confess all their lies, they still cant be believd because they might have told the truth the first time about somethings but now are lieing, you get the picture. And Pauls lies shatter the foundation of Christian religion. If Paul told lies to make Jesus look good, then what about those specailly chosen "faithfull" deciples of Jesus, did they tell lies regarding what Jesus said about his death and crucifiction. Did they make up events to make Jesus look good? And what about the holy Spirit inspired gosple writers, If a celebrated apostle like Paul is not imune from telling fabrications regarding Jesus to make him look good, its hardly likely that these gosple writers could be immune from such acts also, knowing too well that they where also filled with the same holy spirit has apostle Paul.

You understand the implications of Paul telling lies, and what effect it will have on Christianity, it will destroy Christianity. Thats why I said in my earlier response that honesty and objectivity should be the aim, not you scratch my back and will scratch yours.

[i]So just sit back and relax a little. No one's accusing Islam of anything, he just wanted more information. Did you see Webtoaster's post as well?[i]

Yes I did, but I still chose to do what was required, to speak out for right and forbid whats evil.

Was-salam
Ali

[ali420]

No there is not. Excuse me, but Abraham lies to Pharaoh on his own inititive and Pharaoh gets quite upset with him about it.

Gen 12:

10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you."
14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman. 15 And when Pharaoh's officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels.
17 But the LORD inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram's wife Sarai. 18 So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, 'She is my sister,' so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!" 20 Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had.


Where I come from saying something about someone that isn't true is called libel.
For obvious reasons explained in the above response, Islam states that, Prophets do not lie, and they dont commit sin.

[Raptor]

I respectfully disagree ali. I'm compromising nothing. I'm stating that accusations of "lying" do nothing to help either one of us understand.

And Pauls lies shatter the foundation of Christian religion. If Paul told lies to make Jesus look good, then what about those specailly chosen "faithfull" deciples of Jesus, did they tell lies regarding what Jesus said about his death and crucifiction. Did they make up events to make Jesus look good? And what about the holy Spirit inspired gosple writers, If a celebrated apostle like Paul is not imune from telling fabrications regarding Jesus to make him look good, its hardly likely that these gosple writers could be immune from such acts also, knowing too well that they where also filled with the same holy spirit has apostle Paul.

You understand the implications of Paul telling lies, and what effect it will have on Christianity, it will destroy Christianity. Thats why I said in my earlier response that honesty and objectivity should be the aim, not you scratch my back and will scratch yours.


Your objectivity is shining through ali. This post is practically dripping with venom. You need to understand the context of the passage before you pass judgement. It sounds like the same things I hear about the song of solomon. I could be cheap and attack Islam, but that does neither one of us any good.

The point of my post is to say that our dialogue should be civil, and that we should respect each others views.

[ali420]

[i]Your objectivity is shining through ali. This post is practically dripping with venom. You need to understand the context of the passage before you pass judgement. It sounds like the same things I hear about the song of solomon. I could be cheap and attack Islam, but that does neither one of us any good.[\i]

Venom! Jesus said perfectly regarding his fallowers, and that applied to his imediate deciples and his modern deciples, all of them delutional, surely now i am convinced bible is gods book.

It is reported in the bible Jesus said:Why see a thorn in your brothers eye, when you,your self have the entire thorn bush in your eyes, or something to this effect, but the meaning is still there even if I am not quoting directly.

This has set the base for my response. What made you think that I was writting in a insulting or offensive way, or my post was full of venom? I dont know what.

YOu see the venom is in you, the hatered, anger, bitterness, and your self is full of venom against Muslims and Islam, and this Islamophobia, unables you to see the disease you are suffering from, but here is some medicine, lets prescribe for your hatred mongering, and containgious venom, some himiliation dose, hoping that it will cure you sickness.

But first let me prove to that you are sick, and a little mentally imblanced, otherwise you will not beleive me that you are sick and mentally ill.

Jesus said on the cross My God, My God Why Have YOur Forsaken Me, we need to put this into practice and find out which one of these possibilities is true. In which mode was Jesus when he uttered those words?

My God, My God Why Have YOur Forsaken Me :pray:
My God, My God Why Have YOur Forsaken Me :blush:
My God, My God Why Have YOur Forsaken Me :rofl:
My God, My God Why Have YOur Forsaken Me :rant:
My God, My God Why Have YOur Forsaken Me :dizzy:
My God, My God Why Have YOur Forsaken Me :shrug:
My God, My God Why Have YOur Forsaken Me :bow:
My God, My God Why Have YOur Forsaken Me :mossrose:

You see, never will now for sure what mode he was in, angry, happy, praisefull, confused, estatic, when you read the statement without those cute characters you can never know what kind of mode the person was it, you can speculate.

Now all the venom that you attributed to me, was surely inside you, thats why it came in your mind, that i might be the one who is full with it. What a character you are. Obviosly you have proved nothing more then a joke, and only have been the cause of humiliation to your self, and to those who share the same thinking with you.

[i]The point of my post is to say that our dialogue should be civil, and that we should respect each others views.[\i]

And your way of thumping your personel inner hatred, inner venom, anti-IslamicSemeticism, should be taken has a example anf should be fallowed. Too bad you are not the only one so self delutional, there have been many before, who thought the same about my writtings against them, and told me they are venom, and hatred, but they only say it once.

DEE DEE WAREN: Didnt I tell you that level of disscussion on your forum is childish, now you beleive me :woohoo: and please, teach your brethern some sense, He is poking his hand in holes, and you know what happens to those make a hobby out of it ... :whack:. I am not a character to be messed with, better left alone :yes: .

Rapstor, lets hope its made a good lesson for you.

M.S.Ali
Peace!

[TuckEverlasting]

Thanks for your response, Ali. We don't hear a Muslim point of view often enough on TWeb.

[WebToaster]

Thanks for your response, Ali. We don't hear a Muslim point of view often enough on TWeb.
Profound and sublime, all within a two sentence post! Well, done! Have some pearls!

[Sakarja]

I'm disappointed in the article from Answering Islam, the articles from that site I've read in the past aren't quite as misleading. They list one quote from the Qur'an, which doesn't even get close to endorsing pious lies. And the other two references are from footnotes in Shia tradition.

This would be like me posting Peter's denial of Christ, and then posting statements from Eusebius or Jerome and drawing some conclusions about lies within Christianity.

That article is simply reporting an argument that Shia muslims use starting from both that verse and their own traditions. In the Quran passage Aaron told a "pious lie", and he was a prophet, and prophets cannot sin, therefore Aaron didn't sin and its okay for us to do like he did. Thats the Shia argument. They aren't saying if they endorse it or not, although on the other hand they don't present any counter-arguments. I don't see how the Answering-islam page is misleading at all, can you help me?

Also, can you guys comment on this article from Answering Islam and the hadith quotations (and a quote from a person they call a famous and respected Muslim theologian) about lying there?
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/L/lying.html

Great subject, I'm very interested! :)

[ali420]

YOur message has been answered in the message number seven, just read it.

[Sakarja]

YOur message has been answered in the message number seven, just read it.

Hi Ali! I did read your message already before posting. I didn't see where it showed how the Answering-islam article about Taqiyah was misleading.. actually it said a lot of the same things you say - that it was a Shia concept.

Thanks for your message but it also didn't comment on any hadith in the other article, like this one:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them). (Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05; see also Sahih al-Bukhari 3.857)

So according to this hadith it seems that its ok for muslim to lie in some circumstances. There are some more examples (from muslim sources) in the article I cited, see http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/L/lying.html

I'm not accusing muslims, I'm just interested in what Islam has to say about this. But you will have to show me how these hadiths don't mean what they say if you want to make your point that the stuff on Answering-islam really is trash and islam doesn't allow lying sometimes.

[ali420]

Let me explain to you the meaning of the Hadith which is apparent, but answering-islam has not interest in honest and objective articles, rather then they use any hadith which could be twisted to mean what they want it to mean. I have only one way to explain this hadith, and its not rather pleasent, but its reality based.

Husband: Camella, have you prepared my clothes for work?

Wife: Sorry darling, I was a little busy i havent had the time to do it, can you wear your old clothes today?

Husband: I told you to get them ready, today there was a party in the work place, everybody will be wearing there best clothes, and there is me wearing stinky clothes.

Wife: Oh well dont go then,

Husband: Oh fuck of, what was you doing, what was it that kept you busy, it must be bitch friend of yours luise, you been talking to on the fone for hours.

Wife: No I wasnt

Husband: so what was you doing, talking to your pimp or something! You fucking good for nothing, you fucking stay home all day and do nothing.

Now the situation gets worse and they both fall out with each other, wife goes home the husband goes in other direction, before they know it, they are getting ready to file in for divorce. But some friends get togather and they decide that they will try to bring Camella and Daniel back togather. So what do they do, do they sit and start telling the wife oh he was calling yu a whore because he was angry, he called you a two dollar slut, because he was angry, ofcourse they dont, if they genuinely want to solve their problem and save them from getting divorced and help make sure that the kids are not torn appart between two parents they will want to avoid reminding the things which hurt their feelings, they wont remind the wife that he called you a whore, more likely they would say "you will have to understand that he was angry and what ever he said was in anger, but deep in his heart he truely loves you. You remeber the time he carried you to the top of the moutain in your arms, and you remember that he brought you flowers every day, he took you out for dinner, he brought you presents every day, and he was faithfull to you all the time." They would tell them all these things, the hadith states that people who go out and try to bring to groups togather while using deliberately ignoring the hurtful words or using polite words, illigitamite rather then saying you are bastard.

Or when Lucy says that her husband is a fat bastard, who eats like a pig, and sleeps all day, never does anything except watch TV and drink bear. Has the Hadith says: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. So when Becky hears this she says oh come on Lucy your husband is not Fat, he is only a little over weight, and wats wrong with drinking bear, you know drinking is men thing, everybody drinks it. I dont think thats lieing, infact becky is telling the truth he is only a little fat and everybody drinks. Becky is looking at it from reconciliation perspective she wants lucy to understand that she is just being hasty. She is complementing the good things of her husband, she tell Lucy that he has money, he has a decent job and can ford a big house and a nice car, and takes her out on holidays every year. She is speaking good about her husband not lieing.

Also the speaker says "... what the people speak as lie ..." that people think thats a lieing in the three cases, and then he goes on to tell what people think is a lie in battle, bringing back huband ... wife, and wif ... husband, but he first quotes the Hadith from Muhammed (pbuh) then he goes on to tell that people think these things are telling lies. These three can be put under two categories Reconciliation, and Battle Tactics. In reconciliation you ignore the bad things of both parties you praise the good ones to solve the dispute, and you try to deal with the issue with caring and try to make the actual incident has less important, you tell that he didnt mean it he was angry, you try to get symphathy for the husband, making the wife realise that she too was wrong for her part also the husband was wrong. In Battle tactics, you tell your army to withdraw from battle field, soon has the enemy thinks they have won and are begining to lay down weapons and start to relax a bit, you quickly order attack. Now according to the person in the Hadith this was concidered has telling a lie, but he firstly quotes the saying of Muhammed that : "A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good." then he goes on to quote another hadith by Ibn Shihab who says that using a diplometic language in these three cases is not telling a lie, even thou people think its lieing. And I have explained the reasons why its not lieing.

I know its all messed up the answer is not structured well, and things are here and there, so it might be a little confusing for you, just copy a section of the hadith and then find the answer in the above response.

Hopefully you will be able to see through the structural mess and understand all this, I have not slept all night and I finished my work 8 pm and now its 6 in the morning. and my brain is not functioning well at this moment. and I was not able to structre it well. If this doesnt satisfy your enquerry hopefully tomarrow when I am fresh, I will write another one.

Ali

[Sakarja]

Ali, that does help and it was interesting to read, but its not enough. Yes in the first part it can be interpreted that someone speaking good to bring reconciliation isn't lying, and I agree with that. But in the second part of the hadith it seems to be clearly speaking about telling outright lies:

Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases:

so we notice that it is saying people speak things "as a lie" and usually it is not permitted, but here are three cases where it (lying) is allowed. Also they give other hadiths supporting this interpretation that there are some cases where its allowable to lie:

To save one's life


The first is borne out by Mahomet's express sanction. Ammar ibn Yasir was sorely persecuted by the pagans of Mecca, and denied the faith for his deliverance. The Prophet approved of his conduct: - "If they do this again, then repeat the same recantation to them again." Katib al Wackidi; p. 227 ½. Another tradition preserved in the family of Yasir, is as follows: - "The idolators seized Ammar, and they let him not go until he had abused Mahomet and spoken well of their gods. He then repaired to the Prophet, who asked of him what had happened." - "Evil, oh Prophet of the Lord! I was not let go until I had abused thee, and spoken well of their gods." - "But how," replied Mahomet, "dost thou find thine own heart?" - "Secure and steadfast in the faith." - "Then," said Mahomet, "if they repeat the same, do thou too repeat the same." Ibid. Mahomet also said that Ammar's lie was better than Abu Jahl's truth.
To effect a peace or reconciliation


The second is directly sanctioned by the following tradition:- "That person is not a liar who makes peace between two people, and speaks good words to do away their quarrel, although they should be lies. Mishcat, vol ii. p.427.


To persuade a woman


As to the third, we have a melancholy instance that Mahomet did not think it wrong to make false promises to his wives, in the matter of Mary his Egyptian maid.

[snip]

On the occasion of a journey or expedition


And regarding the fourth, it was his constant habit in projecting expeditions (excepting only that to Tabuk) to conceal his intentions, and to give out that he was about to proceed in another direction from the true one. Hishami, p. 392; Katib al Wackidi, p. 133 ½.



Also they quote one of the examples where Mohammed allowed and permitted lying:


Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." ... (Sahih al-Bukhari 5.369, cf. the article on Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf for further details)

So here Mohammed allowed a person to tell a lie. I'm sure that many muslims would say that all lying is wrong though. And I'm sure that among muslims also there is lying and not everyone is serious about their faith, just as with christians in the west, there are many who are called christians who don't really follow the way.

Please comment on the above hadiths. I am grateful for your efforts and would like to know what you think about these things. After all its your faith and you know more about it than I do. Can you refute the interpretation given here?

The answering-islam does state that the general attitude in islam against lying seems to be negative, but I think they should have given more room to muslims like you who don't allow any lying at all. Are you an american muslim by the way or from the middle east, africa or somewhere else?

[ali420]

I will get back to you with this Issue, I need to have it checked with scholar. I am totally nill in the field of Hadith Commentary, because there arent any Hadith commentaries written, or the ones which are writen are in Arabic, and i dont speak it. I will have to reffer this to a Muhaddith or Hadith expert, on this issue, I am little confused my self. If the translation is accurate and there isnt missing anything in the context, then your assumption could be write. But has my experience says Hadith has alot of context which is not mentioned in the Hadith books, which needs to be acounted for before a accurate legal can be given. It is commonly said by the Hadith experts that Hadith will lead people astray if they read it without proper guidance from a scholar, which i strongly aggree. For example there are two hadiths one states hygine is part of Faith and it can not be complete until you are clean, while another one says that its irrelevent. This is clear contradiction. But when I reffered it to a scholar he pointed out the clues which explained the hadith and added some more back ground information so i understood the hadith and realised infact its not a contradiction but wisdom of Islamic Law. He explained that One person who came to Muhammed who was mentioned by name in the hadith, was told the hygine is important, and that person happend to live in Madinah, where water was in good supply. So from his name the scholars found that he lived in city, while the Hadith which says the hygine is irrelevent to that person, clearly states that this person who came was a beduine, a man who lives in dessert tents and is constantly on move looking for grass to feed his animals. And because of his moving he might not find extra water for cleaning, beacue thoose days people carried only water which they need on the animals, and beduindes had to cary othr things alos on the animals, and in dessert where is not constant supply, no amount of water is too much, so Muhammed relaxed the rules for that person, saying that you dont have to worry. It was a contradiction but proved my ignorance and proved the wisdom of Islamic Law, and the scholar advised not to read hadith without a teacher, or else i will lead my self astray. And that was the last time I read Hadith indepandently. So I am not going to say that you are right, its possible that you are wrong. If you are right then only two things first I will correct my beleife that on lieing is allowed when life is in danger, then tell you that you are right. On other hand I am sure that scholars says that if your life is in danger and it can only be safed by wine, then its legal in Islamic Law, so in the matter of saving a life you possibly could be allowed to lie also. I dont know for sure, its mere speculation. Has far has I am aware its not allowed, but even if it is, its not allowed for fun, only in the matters of life and death situations. Which to me is morally acceptable and a intelligent thing to do, when a lie can save your life and of others, but you wont lie. Has far I am aware of Hadith, Muhammed (pbuh) said make Islam easy for people, not buren, like the water issue, he made it easy for the beduines not burden, so its reasonable to assume that lieing in life and death matter is allowed.

But nothing is for 100% gaurantee, I will have to get it checked my self. I will get back to you soon has i get the response.

Was-salam
Ali

[Sakarja]

Ok, thanks Ali. I agree that there may be places where lying really is the right thing to do.. for example lets suppose a friend of mine came looking for help from me, because there were hired killers after him.. for example lets say there was a lot of persecution and they wanted to kill him because he is a christian, or something like that. I think it would be right for me to lie to the killers and hide my friend, so that I could save his life. Here it would be simply foolish and irresponsible not to lie, the commandment to preserve life is more important. But lying isn't a trivial thing for me either, it's for life and death situations. But in marriage situations for example I don't believe lying is a right thing to do... if a man betrays his wife then I think the best thing to do is to be honest about it, and pray to God, not lie in order to keep "peace" between the husband and wife. I don't think a peace based on lies would be a real peace anyway..

[ali420]

You will have to understand the importance of Marriage in Islam, before you could see the divorce, and why Islam lays so much stress on a healthy marriage. There is a Hadith which states that when a Muslim gets married half of his faith is complete, and he should work to complete the other half. Now the other half would be obeying the laws of shariah, performing the rituals prayers, charity, and so on. Islam is just not a religious beleife, its a complete way of living, it tells you how to eat, what to eat, when to eat, how much to eat, with which hand to eat. It has a minute details of everyday life, and it has prescribed laws to preserve this life, to improve the life. Islam also puts great emphasis on community of people, it gives rules how a model community should be, it has provided laws by fallowing which a community of people can reach the model prescribed by Shariah. Divorce is a great strain, and it effects the blance of the community greatly. For a community to be happy and lively and pious everyone has to work togather, co-operate with each other. But if there is one couple who have got divorced the family of the two individuals will take side of there son or daughter, and rivalary, anger, hatred will effect the other members of the community, eventually making a harmonious community, into hostile. You might have hear of the phrase: "One dirty fish can make the whole pond dirty." and its has been demonstrated, quite well in our recent times that pornoghraphy was considered bad, but it took only few dirty fishes to make the entire Europe, America, and even the rest of the world into shameless, dignityless people. Therefore Islam prohibits any dirty fishes regarding divorce, I think its in the Quran, or Hadith that, the most hated thing by Allah is divorce (obviously because of the effect it will have on community). Therefore Muslims make every effort to avoid divorce. But Islam has not prohibited divorce, it has made it legal, but only when all the negociations fail, and even then the manner of seperation is clearly given in the Quran, that couple should seperate with love and trade gifts, so they no hostile feelings when they leave. Has a result of a peacfull divorce is much better for the community then a woman going home crying, and telling alll the friends that her husband is a bas***d, obviously her friends will take her side and hatred will be ripe among the community.

Also concidering the effect it will have on the children of couple when they divorce, children will be torn between two parents, lenthy court battles, regarding the custody of the children, will have a great stress on the minds of children, and they will grow up to hate their parents or atleast one of the parent. Considering the impact it will have on the life of the entire community, its a demon that has to be kept at bay, and even when it is let loose, Islam makes sure that it doesnt cause great harm to others.

"But lying isn't a trivial thing for me either, it's for life and death situations. But in marriage situations for example I don't believe lying is a right thing to do... if a man betrays his wife then I think the best thing to do is to be honest about it, and pray to God, not lie in order to keep "peace" between the husband and wife. I don't think a peace based on lies would be a real peace anyway.."

Islam prohibits adultery and punishes it with very sever punishmed, stonning to death, imprisionment. If a man commits adultery, and he is married he will be stoned to death, and if he is not married then this will be considered and the punishment will be lenient, and perhaps will be instructed to marry the woman he commited fornication with. Islam requires three witness for capital punishment, which is different depending on the crimes. If there are three witnesses who have seen the two individuals having sex, they are olidged to inform the Judge, who will take there witness and punish the couple, according to there martial status.

If a married man or woman has commited illegal sexual intercourse, and there are witness to this happening then, they are commanded to inform the jude, if they fail, and tell the wife of husband regarding the act of his/her partner and try to play it down, they are sinfull for which they will be punished. Under such circumstances then it becomes the duty of the husband/wife to inform the Judge, so the guilty party can receive the prescribed punishment, for the crime commited. In short there is no where Islam requires you to make peace between a couple if they are absolutely fed up with each other, or one of them has been unfaithfull to the partner. Reconciliation is only worth trying when there is hope that two parties can put the bad experiences behind and live there future life happily. Also lieing is not allowed in this matter, yes you are allowed point out the good qualities of a individual so the other partner can realise the lost effection. But lieing is not allowed in this regard.

Much more could have been possible for me to write here, and I am aware there will be some places where questions will arise, which on a normal day I would address them before they could be asked, but I am quite sure that these are not so difficult to work out. If there is any question bathering you or you think is important that shuld be address, please contact me on my email address at: wiaa_contact@hotmail.com

Any way this was my last message here, I am off. I am currently authoring a book, on Christianity and Islam, which needs attention. Insha-Allah it will be completed before I die.

Was-salam
Ali

[Mohammed]

Hello Everyone,

I do not see anything wrong with the Shia position of lying during extreme circumstances, like the one presented by Sakarja. It seems quite resonable to lie to protect one's life from an oppressor.

There are Quranic Verses & several Hadith in both Shia and Sunni sources which show that Taqiyya was practiced during the Prophet's time when Muslims were being persecuted.

For those who are interested, more information on this topic is available here with lots of references from the Quran and Hadith:

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/2.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/3.html

regards,
Mohammed

[soulflame]

If it's ok to lie to protect one's life then how about this situation. A man bursts into a Shia worship service and points a gun at you and asks, "Are you a Muslim? Do you believe in Allah? If you do then you die, but if you renounce your faith you shall live." Do you lie? It's protecting your life...just thought I'd ask...

[Mohammed]

If it's ok to lie to protect one's life then how about this situation. A man bursts into a Shia worship service and points a gun at you and asks, "Are you a Muslim? Do you believe in Allah? If you do then you die, but if you renounce your faith you shall live." Do you lie? It's protecting your life...just thought I'd ask...

If you're life is on the line, then it is not a sin to lie in such a situation.

[soulflame]

Another question...since when is our life more important then the laws and commands of God? How can you pick and choose when you override His commands and laws and when you don't?

[Mohammed]

Another question...since when is our life more important then the laws and commands of God? How can you pick and choose when you override His commands and laws and when you don't?

Good question. It is based on laws preached by the Prophet. He sets the standard for the Muslims.

[soulflame]

Ok...so he did say that it is ok to lie to save your life? Just got confused...

[Jude3b]

Good question. It is based on laws preached by the Prophet. He sets the standard for the Muslims.

What are the laws "the Prophet" taught on mudering children in a school? How about the laws "the Prophet" taught on murdering innocent people while they are busy at work in the World Trade Centers? What does "the Prophet" say about that?

[soulflame]

Thanks Jude for backing me up...:smile:

[Jude3b]

Thanks Jude for backing me up...:smile:

Dear soulflame, your most welcome.

[raj215]

[QUOTE=TuckEverlasting]It is often said that Muslims are allowed to lie for the cause of Islam. Is this true, or is it a half-truth, or is it blatantly false? If it is true, can you give me a more detailed explanation (including, for example, cites from the Koran or Hadith)?[/QUOT

[raj215]

I dont know where you got your information, but to lie in islam is is not allowed

[Jude3b]

I dont know where you got your information, but to lie in islam is is not allowed

Apparently it is ok to lie in Islam. Because your Muslim controversialists lie about Jesus Christ and they lie about the Bible!

[soulflame]

It's simple...it's ok to lie, before you decide it's bad. Hehehehe...I can't believe you guys didn't understand that! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: