Onan, the barbarian

[dawnghost]

so... I haven't seen this topic here before, I think it's time someone posted this.

is masturbating a sin? why?


simple as that. :tongue:

[spl_cadet]

The spilling of seed by Onan, and the fact that you lust when you masturbate.

[lordsnooty]

Seriously, I mean no offense here - but do most strict Christians abstain from masturbation? Always?

Feel under no obligation to answer :thumb:

Paul

[spl_cadet]

We do our best.

[SynchroKnight]

Yesterday @ 11:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
spl_cadet:

The spilling of seed by Onan, and the fact that you lust when you masturbate.

I may be wrong, but my understanding of the story of Onan was that under Mosaic Law (Deut 25:5-10), if a married man died before producing any offspring, his brother was required to "marry" his sister-in-law in order to produce an heir for his deceased brother.

Onan's sin (and the reason God smote him) was that by "spilling his seed", he failed to execute his brotherly duty. He was in a position to cash in on his brother's goods if no child was born to inherit them. In effect, he was stealing from his dead brother.

My impression was that anyone not under this "fraternal obligation" could "spill" all they wanted to.

Have I overlooked something?

[Rubia Warren]

I don't know either way about the last part, but you got the story of Onan correct. :thumb:

[Socrates]

The Tekton Apologetics site (www.tektonics.org) has a good analysis of the historical and cultural context, which also uses this phrase: Onan the Barbarian Was God Unfair to Onan? (http://www.tektonics.org/onanbash.html)

[spl_cadet]

Under Mosaic law he would have been punished simply by public humiliation and possibly exile as well. I remember seeing a great link about this, I'll have to find it.

[spl_cadet]

Link I was talking about. (http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/birthcontrol.html)

[SynchroKnight]

Nice link spl_cadet, it really got me thinking.

I noticed the author of the article compared Tamar's plight at the hands of Onan with her problems with Judah later in the chapter.

So, what is the difference between Judah, Onan, and Shelah? The only substantive fact is that Onan went into her lawfully as he married her (unlike Judah who went into her unlawfully), but only Onan destroyed the seed. Ultimately any attempt to exclude this as the principle grounds of Onan's death, is a pure attempt at expediency.

Is "destroying the seed" the only difference? If I may put forth an "hypothesis"...

To start with, the Mosaic law is very cut-and-dry. The man either marries his sister-in-law or faces public humiliation (which in ancient times was probably worse than we imagine today).

The law also leaves some "gray areas". What if the man (like Onan) publicly marries his sister-in-law and then prevents conception?

What if the brother is too young to marry? Will the father-in-law (like Judah) publicly declare his intention to follow the law and give his son in marriage (when he is of age) while he strings the poor woman along?

For the latter problem, the Bible gives the impression that the woman has "some" leverage. After all, she is living in her father's house. She could approach him when she feels her father-in-law is dragging his feet. She can call witnessess to testify that the son is of age and the father-in-law must do his duty. Granted, in the story, Tamar takes "questionable" actions to bring things to a head. At least she can take action.

With Onan, I see a problem. How can she seek justice? Its her word against his. Who will testify that Onan is preventing conception? The story presents the solution. God will strike down the wrongdoer. Who can blame Him? Here you have Onan, who publicly appears to be following the law while privately thumbing his nose at it. He steals from his brother and Tamar can do nothing to stop it. It sends the message "God will get you, even if you think no one knows you're up to something, even if you think no one can stop you".

Onan's punishment is greater because his sin is greater. God strikes him down because nobody else knows he's guilty.

This may be one way to look at Genesis 38 that excludes the "destroying of seed" as the "principle grounds of Onan's death".

Any thoughts?

[spl_cadet]

I think that's an interesting explanation that would work when isolated to just the verse, but the Christian and Jewish history/tradition of interpreting that verse go against it. Other than that it's a very good explanation.

[SynchroKnight]

Today @ 03:12 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59101#post59101)
spl_cadet:

I think that's an interesting explanation that would work when isolated to just the verse, but the Christian and Jewish history/tradition of interpreting that verse go against it. Other than that it's a very good explanation.

Thanks spl_cadet.

I admit it dealt with only one argument. The others the article raised I felt unqualified to discuss (like the Hebrew). In the case of the argument about Jewish tradition (later rabbis and such), I agreed with him.

(Just figured there was an angle that wasn't explored yet.)

[Lazy Agnostic]

[opinion]:

If Scripture (or at least some of it) is not the work of God, what would they have to do to get us to believe it? What could they say that might convince us we are wholly evil by nature and need to continually return to the priests and pharisees for spiritual recharge?

What if sexual ideation and autoeroticism are tools to discover our sensual reality and form healthy models through which we share ourself with a worthy mate?

Suppression of sexual ideaton is nearly as impossible and unhealthy as suppression of dreams. The inability to suppress, convinces many they are being plagued by Satan; autoeroticism is followed not by a satisfying release but by abject guilt and fear of being despised by God.

Males are hardwired with the message "Them are good genes, you WILL find a way." If we learn a healthy reality, we can acknowledge and appreciate a woman's sensuality, allowing that message to harmlessly dissipate.

We conspire to conceal from our children and each other that we are all sexual beings. If we taught our children differently, perhaps they would have the tools to overcome the concupiscent impulses of puberty which lead to inappropriate and unhealthy behavior.

I suspect that unhealthy suppression is at the root of the sexual immaturity and pervertion which continue to plague society.

[spl_cadet]

LazyAgnostic
I suspect that suppression is at the root of the sexual immaturity and pervertion which continue to plague society.

Nope, it's the free license to do what you please. For example, Catholic priests (whom you would certainly consider suppressed) are far less likely to engage in any of that stuff (including pedophilia) than are members of the mainstream population.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 09:53 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=60297#post60297)
spl_cadet:



Nope, it's the free license to do what you please. For example, Catholic priests (whom you would certainly consider suppressed) are far less likely to engage in any of that stuff (including pedophilia) than are members of the mainstream population. I'm not suggesting free license to do what one pleases. I'm suggesting that suppression impairs one's ability to form healthy models of what is pleasing.

[spl_cadet]

Not so. In my case my first girlfriend (with whom I wasn't suppressed at all aside from my parent's wisely preventing me the opportunity to have sex with her), that seriously jacked up my views and ability to look at love and all. I'm still struggling with some of it and we broke up a year ago.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 10:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=60316#post60316)
spl_cadet:

Not so. In my case my first girlfriend (with whom I wasn't suppressed at all aside from my parent's wisely preventing me the opportunity to have sex with her), that seriously jacked up my views and ability to look at love and all. I'm still struggling with some of it and we broke up a year ago. Yeah, it sometimes feels like there's a big hole in the middle of you.

You're only nineteen, wait a few more years before you even think about being in love.