nudge nudge, wink wink!

[dawnghost]

you know, I will be a virgin till the day I marry, but I'd like to know your views on the subject.

why shouldn't someone engage in sexual activity before marriage?

[lordsnooty]

(As an atheist...) I think it can be a little risky. If you marry someone, and he or she turns out to be the most frigid lover that there ever was, that can cause problems in a marriage.

On the other hand, I don't condone sex outside of loving relationships, either. I wouldn't ever dream of trying to stop anyone from engaging in such acts, but I wouldn't do it myself. It's just seems so vulgar.

Paul

[spl_cadet]

Because the Bible speaks against it and because I'd like my wedding night to be something special.

[Rubia Warren]

I wish so badly I had waited until I was married- I couldn't care less how someone performs in the sack... what if I had tried out my husband and it was very good, so got married, and an accident happened and he became paralized, or something, and couldn't have sex anymore? Who cares? It's more than just a physical act. Way more than that. And when I got married, I felt a sick feeling knot in my stomach in the beginning, and was sad that neither of us had waited until we got married to lose our virginity, I totally grieved when I realized how special that would have been... and I wasn't even a christian at the time.
Premarital sex w/ boys is not worth it, although at the time, I couldn't see farther than my love at the time... back then I just knew it would last forever.*snort*
The night I lost my virginity was one of the worst in my life, and I still get a little sad about it sometimes. I was a junior in high school, and I vowed to myself that I would not sleep with anybody until I was married... until I met Chris, a college student from Northwestern U. We talked all the time, maintained everything long distance, and when he came to visit me on his thanksgiving break, I decided I was going to do it, and I knew it would work out fine, and I would never regret it- I was in LOOOOVE.
Losing your virginity is nothing like what steamy sex scenes look like in the movies. And when it was over, I fell asleep, and 20 minutes later, he slept with my best friend in my living room- she was also a virgin, and she had invited him- they both had it planned beforehand.:frown: I was devastated. And I already gave away that special part of myself, never to get it back- and I don't know about other girls, but losing your virginity changes you- I was not the same after I did that for the first time.
I can say honestly, that no one I have slept with outside of marriage has ever been worth it- every time, I gave away a part of myself, and no one has ever been worthy of it like the man I married. And I wish that he had waited, too. I wondered for a long time about the girls from his past and wished so badly that I had been the only one.
If any virgin girls are lurking and reading this, don't ever ever give yourself away before marriage. Even if he is nice, and loves you- even if you two are planning on getting married in the future- don't let it happen until your wedding night. Whether he's a truly good guy, or a bad guy in disguise, you only get to lose it one time, and it's not worth taking the chance if you aren't married first.

[dawnghost]

wow, I am gonna copy that last post and save it. :smile:

[dawnghost]

Today @ 04:20 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=56992#post56992)
spl_cadet:

Because the Bible speaks against it and because I'd like my wedding night to be something special.

I agree with you 100% man :thumb:

but I'd like to know where exactly that's written on the Bible, I think I've read it once but it was a long time ago, and I can't seem to find it anymore. :argh:

[spl_cadet]

Galations 5: 19-20
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
1 Corinthians 6:8-10
Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Colossians 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

[India]

La Rubia - Thanks for being so open in your post. I think more people need to hear what premarital sex can really be like.

dawnghost - See also Deut. 22:13-29

IMO the quality of sex is going to be better if you're married, b/c you know the other person has committed to staying with you and b/c you'll have a lifetime of getting to know each other and how to please each other. Says my friend's 70-something seminary prof, "It only gets better with time." :smile:

Having sex for the first time can be very embarrassing - I was very glad that I was married, and not with just a boyfriend who might joke about it with his next girlfriend.

Also, it's a lot harder to be chaste after having fallen in that area than it is otherwise. Kinda like smoking - it's very easy to not smoke if you've never smoked or been a tobacco addict.

[dawnghost]

thanks everyone

this thread's result turned out to be actually better than I thought it would be :smile:

[Rubia Warren]

Posted by India:
"Also, it's a lot harder to be chaste after having fallen in that area than it is otherwise."


That is sooo true, India. That's what I meant when I said that I had changed. Well, one of the things that was different about me. Man, you just cannot go back once you go that far. When I was a virgin, I was curious about sex and intimacy, but I didn't really care- I didn't know what I was missing, and it wasn't hard to stop myself from having sex. But afterwards, it was very difficult to stay celibate. Not only that, I cannot really explain it, but there's just something about a girl that changes- it just changes everything about you when you aren't a virgin anymore. And if you lost it in the improper context, it screws everything up.

People complain a lot about all the "rules" in the bible.... but I am someone who has literally broken almost every single one of them at one point or another and thought I would be okay, but I can say from experience that all of those style-cramping "rules" in the bible is nothing more than the wisest advice available. God knows exactly what will happen if we do these things, which is why the bible warns against them- for our own good.
Dawnghost, if you are planning on maintaining your virginity (which is what i gathered from your first post), I applaud you- you are doing a wise thing. At times it may be uncomfortable to hold out, and probably even pretty "uncool", and most people will not understand, but I encourage you to stick with it, you will not be sorry if you make it to your weding night still a virgin....but I promise you- take it from me, you WILL be sorry if you don't wait that long. I don't just say that only because of the fact that my boyfriend also slept with my friend... I have thought a lot about it and wondered if he had been a nice, pretty okay guy if I would have regretted it so much, and I have to say that I still would have regretted it just as much- I just probably wouldn't have had to deal with all that pain on top of it.
Kepp going, dawnghost. You have made a wise choice that you will never ever regret.

[dawnghost]

Today @ 02:37 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=58489#post58489)
La Rubia:
Dawnghost, if you are planning on maintaining your virginity (which is what i gathered from your first post), I applaud you- you are doing a wise thing. At times it may be uncomfortable to hold out, and probably even pretty "uncool", and most people will not understand, but I encourage you to stick with it, you will not be sorry if you make it to your weding night still a virgin....but I promise you- take it from me, you WILL be sorry if you don't wait that long. I don't just say that only because of the fact that my boyfriend also slept with my friend... I have thought a lot about it and wondered if he had been a nice, pretty okay guy if I would have regretted it so much, and I have to say that I still would have regretted it just as much- I just probably wouldn't have had to deal with all that pain on top of it.
Kepp going, dawnghost. You have made a wise choice that you will never ever regret.
thanks for the kind words, La Rubia! :thumb:

as you may have noticed, I am a guy, 23 years old. and yes, I am gonna be a virgin until I marry or until I die, whichever comes first. :wink:

it's pretty hard sometimes, people see you as if you were some kind of retarded, who "doesn't know what is missing" and sometimes even pity me.

but you know what? most of the time I can see there's also some sort of admiration behind them... and I've seen some people even hate my decision, because in their eyes, it makes me "holier than thou", as if I was doing this only to show off. or maybe because I haven't had the "competence" to lose my virginity yet.

many times I have refused to date girls, very pretty girls, desired by lots of guys, because they wouldn't wait. and when I told them I'd be a virgin till the end, I was seen as some kind of alien freak hahahahaha, by them and from the guys as well.

and I am not bad looking (pardon me for having said that), so sometimes I have even been desired by more mature women who just wanted my virginity as a throphy, they wanted to be my first one.

it's a crazy world out there, it sure is.

but as you've said, our Father knows what's best for us. and I am gonna follow His words. I just know it's gonna be worth it in the end.

at the place where I work, people indulge in so many disgraceful acts... such as switching sexual partners amongst couples, I've seen people whom I used to admire almost commit adultery in front of my eyes (but by the authority of my faith, they respected me when I told them they were a disgrace :tongue: ).

So it really bugs me when someone tells me I have sexual issues, and that I am afraid of sex or that I have chosen to suffocate my desires or whatever.

that's usually the same person that mistakes lust for love, and the feeling of possession for respect.

it makes me feel like the sanest virgin in the face of the Earth. :wink:

[Xmansmommy]

Dawnghost,
I would have to agree with LaRubia here. There are so many reasons not to have premarital sex. If I could be very open and honest here (which is not easy btw) I still mourn over the first time my body was violated. You see, the first time I had sex, it wasn't consensual. I was a teenager and I went to a party where there was alcohol, and I drank for the first time in my life. I got drunk and passed out. I won't elaborate on the details but I can tell you, that when I woke up and and realized what was happening, I stopped him from doing what he was doing without my consent.
After that, I mourned greatly because I couldn't get it back. And what was worse, is that I didn't give it to begin with. Words simply cannot do justice, the feelings that encompass a young girl in this situation. Horror, sorrow, grief, pain, anger. A great miriad of emotions. To realize that something is gone from you forever is absolutely devastating. Depression set in and eventually I figured I might as well have sex because everyone else was, and b/c I wasn't a virgin any longer. I never meant anything to those I had sex with other than a good time. And to be honest, as I look back, they didn't mean that much to me either. At the time I convinced myself that they did though.
I suffer today, the natural consequences of my sins. I am a single mother. My children suffer the consequences of my sins also. I know the pain that premarital sex can bring. I know young girls that I've talked with and who I have cried with because they wish they had not had sex before being married. I appreciate your sentiments LaRubia and I fully understand. It's very difficult to put into words the feelings and emotions that accompany this topic for those of us who have had premarital sex and regret it.
Unintentional pregnancy is a great reason not to have sex before marriage. AIDS, and other sexually transmitted diseases are great reasons not to have sex outside of the bonds of marriage. So Dawnghost, I would encourage you in love, and anyone else reading this thread to abstain and wait until you find that one person who you want to live the rest of your life with and get married first.
A friend of mine once told me that they never knew how wonderful making love to a man was until she made love to her husband on her wedding night with God's approval. I pray that will be something I fully understand in my own life as I hope to be married someday. And if not, I am committed to living a life that is not filled with the pain and suffering associated with premarital sex. I thank God that He is changing my desires in my life and helping me to see the affects that it has had on those involved, especially my children.
This is a subject that is very hard for some to discuss and I am sorry if anything I posted has offended anyone. There are very few people in my life who I've shared these most intimate details with. I share them today to simply allow others to learn from my sins and perhaps not make the same mistakes that I have. Thanks for affording me the opportunity.

In Christ,
Linda

[Rubia Warren]

:eek: Oh, man! I am so sorry!!! Oops, I mean, DUDE. I hate it when people do that to me, so I am very sorry!!! (geez, how embarrasing!)
You are a wise 23 year old! Wow. I am sure it can get pretty hard at times... but you seem to have the right mindset, and are very focused. I truly hope you meet someone one day, and that you have something very special.

[Rubia Warren]

Linda,
DANG..... that is sooo messed up- it made me want to cry! I cannot imagine what that must have been like. I will post more later- i am still reeling from reading your post.
with much love,
:rubia: La Rubia

[dawnghost]

Today @ 04:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=58586#post58586)
Xmansmommy:
Thanks for affording me the opportunity.


thank YOU for being so strong and sharing...
I am learning a lot from you people of theologyweb.com

God bless you all.

[dawnghost]

Today @ 04:33 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=58596#post58596)
La Rubia:

Linda,
DANG..... that is sooo messed up- it made me want to cry! I cannot imagine what that must have been like. I will post more later- i am still reeling from reading your post.
I just don't know what to say to her as well... that guy who did that to her is an animal, and should be put in a cage with rats and all sorts of filthy animals :argh:

[graceinme]

:bawl: Oh my goodness!!!! Everyones posts have just touched me so greatly.

I just read another thread about remembering all the cool things of the past, and now all this stuff. I so greatly wish I had grown up in a time that pressured kids to wait. I wish I had my Mom and Dad instead of a single Mom. If only I had made better decisions. If I could do it all over again.......It makes me sick to think of what my kids are up against these days. I didn't make it, will my sons????? I had every intension of waiting.......But finally......I did it cause I felt if I didn't no one would love me........I just keep hearing those terrible words my brothers would say when they though no one was listening, I WOULDN"T BUY A CAR WITH OUT TEST DRIVING IT, WHY WOULD ANY GIRL THINK I WOULD MARRY HER WITH OUT A TEST DRIVE..........Public school was the worst though, all the popular girls were sleeping around.

Just remember, anyone can fail under the right circumstances. Satan came to kill, steal, and destroy. He knows what it would take to make you fall. Be sure to keep yourself in prayer, have someone hold you accountable, and never allow yourself and a member of the opposite sex to be put in a comparable position(Always make sure you are around other believers, never left alone).



:gim:Love Grace

[Rubia Warren]

Cool post, grace.
Can you imagine what it would be like to lose your virginity at, like, the age of 12, or some really young age like that? There are so many women who have... I, too, went to public school, and so many of my friends were doing it in Jr. high. I can't imagine what it would be like to do that so much younger- I was a junior in high school, and even that is too young- at least, for me. I wonder what that does to such a young person.

[Xmansmommy]

Grace,
I too wish that I had made better decisions. :frown: I do try however, to realize that I am a stronger person today because I've experienced some of the things I have. NOT that I wouldn't do things differently or take them back if I could. I most certainly would. But alas, I cannot.
I was raised in a single parent home too. If my father was in the home, I imagine it would have been a great deal harder to do those things I shouldn't have been doing.
And I am very aware of how easy it is to get in the flesh faced with temptation. I have failed in the past and don't believe I am above failing again. I simply pray that my desire would always be to let Christ live through me, and that I would make sound decisions not to be in situations where the odds are favorable for me to fail.
I pondered sharing dawnghost, ever since I first read your question. I pray that someone reads it and considers what I've shared. For it truly was not easy to share. But if one person reading, takes into consideration the affects of sex before marriage and chooses not to engage, I will have accomplished something in it all. All for His honor and glory.

[graceinme]

Life and the decisions we make are so fragile.

[Xmansmommy]

Amen Grace!

[Minister of loving1another]

Thankyou guys,
I just copied this whole thread and sent it to my 11 yr old daughter who is determined to stay a virgin till married :thumb:
Its just she told my hubby about it and he said no enjoy yourself before you get married. He also keeps talking about building a small flat out the back so when she is about 16 she can live out there and bring boys home to sleep with:bawl: this comes from a supposedly Christian man :cry:
I told her that God wants us to wait and he has a reason for it, she reads her bible all the time :thumb: and even told my hubby that the bible tells us not to have sex before marriage.
so I thought what you guys have written is excellent to show her both that there are others out there that arnt having sex before marriage and how people feel afterwards ... thanks guys for sharing.

and unfortuneately I did have sex before marriage with my now husband... I gave in to him because he told me he would leave me if I didnt that I had the choice... we were both virgins at the time and stayed together, and got married about4yrs later .. I was 17 and he was 21 at the time :(

in Christ
Luv1another

[Xmansmommy]

Luv,
Thank you for sending this thread to your daughter. These wonderful sisters and brothers have shared some very intimate things that are difficult to discuss. I appreciate brother dawnghost for having the courage to bring this topic up.
Dawnghost, I applaud you for taking the stand that you have. It doesn't matter what others think about you. What matters is what God thinks and what you think. What an encouragement it is to me, to find a young brother who is honest and who cares to keep that part of yourself undefiled. I know you will be blessed in doing so.
And on another note, I simply wanted to address drinking alcohol in settings such as the one I was in. I was way underage (I was 14). Alcohol should have never been something I should have been able to get my hands on. But in today's society it is so easy. And for a young person to be in a place where sex is acceptable and even encouraged, and alcohol is available, is asking for trouble. Sorry to go off on that dawnghost, but feel it needed to be said. Back to the topic at hand. :xmm:

[India]

While we're on the topic: Parents, you should tell your kids that it's not just premarital intercourse that is wrong, but other intimate acts as well. My parents told me not to have sex before marriage, and I figured they knew what they were talking about so I didn't. But they didn't say anything about all the other things you can do. So I told myself, "It's not actual sex, it's okay," and did a lot of those things (in high school).

My parents trusted me and let me spend a lot of unsupervised time alone with my boyfriend. A lot of stuff happened while they were home but we were on a different floor of the house - same thing at his parents' house. If your kids are bound and determined to have sex or whatever, you're not going to be able to stop them, but if they want to remain pure I suggest you work with them to establish rules etc. that will help them avoid temptation. Present it to them as "I want to help you achieve your goals; how can we do this together?" vs. "These are the laws I'm laying down." This is what I have in mind to do with my future kids.

luv1another, I would even suggest having this discussion with your daughter now, before she turns into a rebellious adolescent and doesn't want to talk about it with you anymore.

[Rubia Warren]

Oooo... good points, India.

[Xmansmommy]

Great points India. I have a daughter who is almost 18 who is keeping herself pure but doesn't want to discuss these issues with me :bawl: so I know exactly what you are talking about.

[dawnghost]

hey! :eek:

besides spl_cadet, am I the only guy to ever post in this thread??

this is being so good, I am really glad I asked you guys (gals :tongue: ) this question :thumb:

[Xmansmommy]

Yes, come on guys! What are your thoughts on this topic? I suppose it's not an easy topic for guys to discuss either, but we're looking forward to your participation in this thread as well. I think dawnghost would really be encouraged by hearing what you brothers have to share too. :xmm:

[Alien]

Today @ 06:18 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59622#post59622)
Xmansmommy:
Yes, come on guys! What are your thoughts on this topic? I suppose it's not an easy topic for guys to discuss either, but we're looking forward to your participation in this thread as well. I think dawnghost would really be encouraged by hearing what you brothers have to share too. :xmm:

Well, you asked for it. I read all the posts on the thread and was quite determined to keep my nose out of what seemed to be a cosy little girls' party .... :).

But you asked, so here it is.

As an atheist, of course I don't have the Biblical prohibitions to consider or any fear that God might punish me for anything I do, but please understand that I can be as guilty if I hurt someone as any of you.

Anyway ... as a teenager I made myself a promise that I would sleep with at least fifty women before I got married. Well, I fell short of that by quite a large margin, though not through want of trying.

I can almost see the disapproving looks ..... but please, people differ. If you guys don't want to have sex before marriage, then you really, really shouldn't. But let me tell you, every time was special for me, and I tried to make it that way for my partners too. I never felt that my relationship with any of them was diminished by their not being my "one and only", and I never had any problems with their having had previous lovers. On the contrary, I felt that my (and their) previous experience only enhanced what we shared. Yikes, those awful, clumsy first few times! How good to gain some skill and confidence and to know that my partner brought the same with her.

I can honestly say that I truly loved all of them, perhaps not in an exclusive way, but love takes many forms. I still remember them all with affection, even the few that treated me badly. I would love to get them all together in a room and tell them this.

Women are wonderful, sex is wonderful and love is wonderful. My only regret is that I didn't "know" more of them. Life is so short.

I have never considered a sexually active girl to be a "slut" as so many men seem to (while still wanting to sleep with her, isn't that odd?). On the contrary, I was always grateful that some beautiful woman (you're all beautiful) would grant me the incredible honor of sharing her body with me.

I'm married now, for the second time. I don't "cheat" on my wife (I hate that word) because she would be terribly hurt if I did. But I still remember .....

(Phew) I got carried away there. Its all sincere though. Shall I hit that "send" button ..... heck yes.

[spl_cadet]

Alien

Anyway ... as a teenager I made myself a promise that I would sleep with at least fifty women before I got married. Well, I fell short of that by quite a large margin, though not through want of trying.

:bow:


:teeth:

[Rubia Warren]

spl_cadet, you are bad!:whip:
:dufus: (J/k)

[graceinme]

Wow!

Most of the men I grew up with made the same promises you did Alien. They slept around bragged about it, then when they were done they called the girls sluts.

I can't speak for men, but as a woman I feel that we get much more attached to a member of the opposite sex. You see, we see men as our providers and protectors. We were made to give our loyalty and hearts to men. It is much harder for a woman to sleep around with out getting seriously hurt. If you want to see what I am talking about, go to a 30 year old man who has slept with 100 women, that everyone knows about. Then go to a 30 year old woman who slept with 100 guys that everyone knows about. I grantee you the man will be well liked and admired will probably have a high paying job, will look you in the eye and hold his head up high. Now the woman on the other hand will show strong signs of rapid aging, she will most likely be working a low paying job in customer service, and I grantee you she will not be able to look you in the eyes. I feel the reason being, is that she gave everything she had away. She becomes a hollow shell. So if you are a girl out there who thinks that life is equal between men and women, be very careful.

[Lazy Agnostic]

I can't give you the the research but it seems those who have 1-3 serious-minded relationships (including intimacy) and delay marriage until late 20s/early 30s, have the best chance of happy unions.

Intimacy in the arms of desperation is pathetic.
Intimacy in the arms of mutual respect can be growthful and reassuring.
Intimacy in the arms of mature love is as close to perfection as humans are allowed.

Here is some advice to young Christian women:
Christian grooms have shown themselves to be just as unreliable as secular liars. When a man pledges undying fidelity and requests the best years of your life, whip-out an ironclad contract which says the partner who commits adultery relinquishes claim to all monies and property. (Of course this doesn't include parental rights.)

If he hesitates, drop-kick him across the room.

[Rubia Warren]

Lazy Agnostic,
I liked this part of your post:
"Intimacy in the arms of desperation is pathetic.
Intimacy in the arms of mutual respect can be growthful and reassuring."

:thumb:

[Lazy Agnostic]

Yesterday @ 11:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59906#post59906)
La Rubia:

Lazy Agnostic,
I liked this part of your post:
"Intimacy in the arms of desperation is pathetic.
Intimacy in the arms of mutual respect can be growthful and reassuring."

:thumb: Thank you. How did you feel about this?

"Intimacy in the arms of mature love is as close to perfection as humans are allowed."

It continues to to be more meaningful.

[Alien]

Yesterday @ 09:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59887#post59887)
graceinme:
Most of the men I grew up with made the same promises you did Alien. They slept around bragged about it, then when they were done they called the girls sluts.

Yeah, most young guys brag about their sexual experiences (largely invented in most cases), but remember, I said I have never called a girl a slut, or even thought it. As I thought I made clear, I consider this double standard to be totally repulsive. What right has a man to be promiscuous then turn round and despise women for doing the same thing? The final irony is when, having deflowered every girl for miles, he then expects to find a virgin to marry! Give me a break!

I can't speak for men, but as a woman I feel that we get much more attached to a member of the opposite sex. You see, we see men as our providers and protectors. We were made to give our loyalty and hearts to men. It is much harder for a woman to sleep around with out getting seriously hurt.

Yes, this seems to be true from my observation. Women are probably more naturally monogamous than men.

If you want to see what I am talking about, go to a 30 year old man who has slept with 100 women, that everyone knows about. Then go to a 30 year old woman who slept with 100 guys that everyone knows about. I grantee you the man will be well liked and admired will probably have a high paying job, will look you in the eye and hold his head up high. Now the woman on the other hand will show strong signs of rapid aging, she will most likely be working a low paying job in customer service, and I grantee you she will not be able to look you in the eyes. I feel the reason being, is that she gave everything she had away. She becomes a hollow shell. So if you are a girl out there who thinks that life is equal between men and women, be very careful.

This, however, is a caricature. My own daughter was sexually active quite early, and continued to be so without any visible signs of the symptoms you describe. She gained a college degree and was very successful in her career, always "held her head up high" and is now very happily married, expecting her second child soon. I am very proud of her. I doubt she had 100 men, like the unhappy person you describe, but she always enjoyed her sexuality with pride as far as I can tell.

Of course there may be a difference, in that she grew up and lived in England, where sexual mores are much looser than over here. I suspect that a lot of this is cultural. If society constantly tells a woman that she is a slut then she is likely to start believing it. The opposite is also likely to be the case.

Here's something that I meant to put in my first post. Don't take it too seriously, my main message remains that people vary and that the most important thing is to do what is best for you, not what other people tell you is best. This was supposed to be a piece of graffiti, though I never actually saw it written on a wall.

"Boys marry virgins.
Men marry women".

:)

[Pilgrim]

The interesting statistic about happy marriages has less to do with couples who claim any sort of sexual history or christian or non christian couples. The split seems to be about one in every two marriages split up. The figure that I find interesting is that only 1 in every 1200 couples who regularly and intentionally pray together divorce. That is astounding. I got that figure from the book "When Couples Pray Together."

[Rubia Warren]

That's interesting, Pilgrim.
I am married to an unbeliever, and while we have made it work well, that is one thing I wish we could have in our family.

[Socrates]

I have no double standards -- a promiscuous woman is a slut, and promiscuous man is a whoremonger -- both are equally self-obsessed hedonists with a complete lack of self-control.

[Rubia Warren]

:thumb: :rofl:

[dawnghost]

Today @ 06:54 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61230#post61230)
Socrates:

I have no double standards -- a promiscuous woman is a slut, and promiscuous man is a whoremonger -- both are equally self-obsessed hedonists with a complete lack of self-control.
even though that may sound extremist to some, I agree with you 100%. :thumb:

[India]

Alien:

This, however, is a caricature. My own daughter was sexually active quite early, and continued to be so without any visible signs of the symptoms you describe.


The spiritual effects of actions aren't always outwardly visible.

[Solly]

Yesterday @ 06:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=60445#post60445)
Pilgrim:

The interesting statistic about happy marriages has less to do with couples who claim any sort of sexual history or christian or non christian couples. The split seems to be about one in every two marriages split up. The figure that I find interesting is that only 1 in every 1200 couples who regularly and intentionally pray together divorce. That is astounding. I got that figure from the book "When Couples Pray Together."

In the denomination I am part of, I am not aware of a single divorce, despite the high rate in the general population, and wider Christian community in the UK.
I'm not saying every single one of those marriages is what one might call "happy" in the generally accepted use of that term today, but they continue despite some of the pressures others might give up for: apostatising partners, mentally ill partners, adulterous partners (I know one such couple), pressures upon ministers, finances, etc.
Thjere is still a firmly held belief that marriage is a lifelong committment, come what may - we use the old Anglican marriage ceremony: in sickness and in health, for richer for poorer - whereas society seems to be teaching, via the media, that affairs are ruotine, the stuff of soap operas, that marriage is not life long, and that you have the right to fulfill yourself come what may. I am not convinced that we are moving into a healthier happier era with looser arrangments, but rather a sadder one, were personal identity that should be built up in the home is now scattered over two, three, or maybe even four homes.

People may laugh nowadays at the old "puritan" attitude, but I certainly think sex has been given more PR than it demands, and it puts pressure on too many people to shape up to a standard that just is not real.

[Pilgrim]

Alien:

This, however, is a caricature. My own daughter was sexually active quite early, and continued to be so without any visible signs of the symptoms you describe.

And as a loving parent you couldn't possibly be in denial could you. And I am willing to bet that she became active without your initial knowledge so it's not possible that she may be suffering things you don't know about is it?

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 01:54 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61230#post61230)
Socrates:

I have no double standards -- a promiscuous woman is a slut, and promiscuous man is a whoremonger -- both are equally self-obsessed hedonists with a complete lack of self-control.
Would somone who spends the majority of his time pontificating in front of a computer, getting no exercise and becoming more and more obese, be considered a self-indulgent hedonist?

Gotta go for a bike ride now, then on to the fitness room.

[Alien]

Today @ 09:16 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61709#post61709)
Pilgrim:
And as a loving parent you couldn't possibly be in denial could you.

I very much doubt it. (I don't even live in Egypt ... denial - de Nile ... oh, forget it).

And I am willing to bet that she became active without your initial knowledge....

You lose, how much was that bet for?
:)

... so it's not possible that she may be suffering things you don't know about is it?

Look, graceinme painted a picture of the "fallen woman" that bore more resemblance to a Victorian melodrama than anything in the real world. According to her, my daughter should:

- be prematurely aged. (She's not, quite the contrary).

- be working at a low paying job in customer service. (She has a degree in Computer Science and was pursuing a successful career , not in customer service, before she married and quit work following the birth of her first child).

- not be able to look me in the eye. (She does).

I did admit that she had not reached the "score" of 100 partners that graceinme's hypothetical woman had. Maybe all these dreadful results suddenly appear after the 99th "episode"?

A question for you on the subject of denial. Given that your beliefs dictate that any woman who has multiple sexual partners must suffer various negative consequences (correct me if I'm wrong here), how many such women that are apparently happy, healthy and successful would it take to make you wonder if maybe this was not a universal rule?

[Pilgrim]

It wasn't my rule! I'm sure it is not universal. But I know more women than not who wish they had waited.

It's like the old story of the girl who meets the guy she thinks is the one. She's in her teens. She wants to show this guy how much she loves him and she searches high and low for the one perfect gift. She finds a beautiful golden locket. It costs her as much money as she has ever made but she buys it and gives it to the boy. Year later they break up. She is crushed and she wants the locket back but he keeps it. But she falls in love again and the world seems perfect once more. She is sure this guy is THE ONE. What can she give him to show that she loves him? She returns to the jewler and sees another perfect locket and knows that it is the one perfect gift. She has already given a locket to someone else but what else is there to give? So she spends all her money again and buys the locket and gives it to the boy. They break up 6 months later. She is crushed. She had given this guy her locket.

Now she is in here 20's and she meets the mand she is destined for...this time it is real. They decide to get married. She searched high and low to find the perfect wedding gift. The one thing that will show that she is totally his and he hers. She finds herself back at the jewlers looking at a perfect golden locket. She knows it is the perfect gift so she buys it. But as she hands it to him she realized that it has lost its appeal because it has already been given to men before, men who never were THE ONE. And now this man who is her perfect soul mate has to share the gift with all the others. There is no gift that is his alone.

You could substitute he for she and tell this story to boys as well.

[dawnghost]

:eek:

wow Pilgrim, incredible analogy. :thumb:

[Alien]

Today @ 02:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62051#post62051)
Pilgrim:
It wasn't my rule! I'm sure it is not universal. But I know more women than not who wish they had waited.

And I can't think of any woman offhand that is particularly bothered about it. I know many that regret a particular relationship, but that's different.

I guess we move in different circles. Actually, I'm sure we do. :)

It's like the old story ....

Hmmm. I've given this some thought and I think the reason that this little parable doesn't ring any bells with me is because of a very basic assumption, which is to do with the value of sex.

You are equating sex to the golden locket. I would say that the truly precious thing here is the love and commitment she (or he, certainly) gives to the supposed "soul mate". Whether or not she actually sleeps with the guy is immaterial. She's going to get hurt anyway if he doesn't share her feelings.

Let me try to illustrate this by continuing your story, but with a happier ending.

She seems a little sad after she gives him the locket, and he asks why. She explains that she regrets giving lockets to the other two guys and wishes that she had only given one to him. Fortunately, her "one and only" has moved past the insecurity of wishing to "own" the one he loves. He smiles lovingly and says:

"My dear, I don't care how many lockets you have given. I treasure this one that you have given to me no less for what you have told me. You loved those other men enough to give them this beautiful gift and I can only love you more for it, as it shows your loving nature. That they were unable to return your love hurt you, I'm sure, but this is the nature of life, we take risks and sometimes we get hurt. It could only matter now if you had stored up bitterness towards all men because of it, and I know from the fact that you have given me this locket that that is not so.

"So please, don't be sad. I respect and love you so much more for having embraced life than if you had hidden away from it."

[Warcraft3]

Just to get another guy posting here :teeth: ........

To contribute I will relate my own sexual story....

I am now 27 and until I was 25 I had been a virgin( although I did many things I shouldnt have) with the intent to not have sex until I got married. My reasons for having sex had little to do with perversion or lust, but had everything to do with what had occured during the 25 years prior to my having sex. To make a long story short I have seen alot of suffering and have suffered alot myself during my time on this earth. And when I say Ive suffered or have seen alot of suffering I mean ALOT. Not a little, but alot. And so for a few years I simply gave up and lost my faith. And I had a large amount of faith so it took alot to lose it. I have both seen and participated in miracles, I started preaching when I was 12 (the largest group I was ever in front of was 5000 when I opened in prayer at a John Wesley White Crusade), I have been in a Christian singing group which did three tours (each for three weeks) up and down the east coast, I have led Bible Studies, been an adult counsler, and been involved in various other ministries within the church.

I listed those things to show that I was very involved in ministry and I had a strong walk with God and had strong faith as well. The story of how and why I fell is very long and I dont want to take up too much of peoples time. The point is when I fell I fell hard, not to mention the people who fell because I fell. I have made many, many mistakes and have caused others to fall by my actions. I still have not fully recovered from the many events that caused me to temporarily leave the Christian faith in utter despair. Although I am on my way back to following like I once did, I am walking the road slowly and sometimes I stop walking for a while and just cry out in confusion.

So while I know in my mind that having sex is wrong, I just dont FEEL it anymore. Not like I used to. Im sure someday soon I will feel that again, and then I will no longer be sexually active.

I say all this to say please be careful when talking to people about their sinful actions. Its so easy to quote scripture and tell people what they SHOULD be doing, while never truly understanding WHY they are in the place they are. If there is one thing I have gained from the terrible mistakes I (and several others) made during a time of revival a few years back, it is wisdom. I had to lose everything and reach the point of giving up to learn wisdom. Is there more for me to learn? Of course. Will I have to suffer like that again to gain it? I hope not.

So please take whatever good you can from reading this and tread wisely when speaking on these matters. I have seen some very harsh responces to people in various threads on this website. Yes, Jesus was uncompromising and very clear when dealing with sin. But at the same time His approach was not the same to every person. It takes wisdom to know when to speak firmly and when to show restraint. Seek to gain wisdom, not to win debates or to "prove" someone else wrong.




Just in case you thought my post was too long, depressing, or boring here is a dancing banana to cheer you up

:yipee:

Russ

[graceinme]

Alien, First of all I wasn't referring to you when I said that the men I knew referred to the women they slept with as sluts. I was making a statement about the men I knew. Secondly, I feel very sorry for you. Not only do you have a daughter that has ruined herself, but you will be held accountable for that, on judgment day. The example I gave in my other post was a general statement. I am a women, so I know how women think. I have also had the privilege of working in counseling with women who are still dealing with issues of insecurity due to having to many partners. As far as the circles you hang out in, well, misery/sin loves company.

[Rubia Warren]

steadele, that was a good post.

[India]

steadele:

So please take whatever good you can from reading this and tread wisely when speaking on these matters. I have seen some very harsh responces to people in various threads on this website. Yes, Jesus was uncompromising and very clear when dealing with sin. But at the same time His approach was not the same to every person. It takes wisdom to know when to speak firmly and when to show restraint.

Good point, Russ. It seems to me Jesus was harsh with those who "ought" to know better, e.g. the Pharisees and those who claimed to be right with God. Food for thought:
1 Cor. 5 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+5&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)

[Warcraft3]

India:


"Good point, Russ"

Thank you

"11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."

Just to cover all possible bases let me just say that I do tell people that I am someone who is still struggling with getting right with God. I do not claim to be a practicing (at least not practicing in all areas) Christian, but instead a believer who is on his way back.

Notice the phrases that Paul uses to describe the situation at Corinth:

"2 And you are proud!"
"Your boasting is not good"
"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present."

This is someone who has reached a point where they believe their sin and their Christian walk can coexist, and they have shown no intent of changing.

I do know that my actions will not be able to coexist with a close walk with God, and I do want that change to occur. But it is not my sexual behaviour that is the issue right now in my walk, while it is a "symptom" of where I am it is not the "disease" itself. The "disease" or main problem is a feeling of confusion and despair causing me to give up and sapping me of strength. These feelings are rooted deep and come from many years of pain and suffering. This is going to take some time to overcome. So again I am starting to walk down the road to revival, but I am walking slowly. Perhaps in a later post (or several posts actually) I will share with you all the specifics of what happened so you will know the cause of my current position spiritually. But for now I can only draw on the past and say to you what the old Russ would have said, and that is to be prayerfully patient with me in my struggle.



Russ

[Warcraft3]

La Rubia:

"steadele, that was a good post."

Thankyou. I hope it helps someone in some way.


Russ

[Alien]

Yesterday @ 08:18 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62470#post62470)
steadele:
Seek to gain wisdom, not to win debates or to "prove" someone else wrong.

Yes!!!!

I'm sorry you have had so many problems. I wish you happiness, however you resolve your "crisis of faith".

[Alien]

Yesterday @ 08:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62491#post62491)
graceinme:
Alien, First of all I wasn't referring to you when I said that the men I knew referred to the women they slept with as sluts. I was making a statement about the men I knew.

Yes, I realised that.

Secondly, I feel very sorry for you.

Save your sympathy for someone that needs it. I'm fine.

Not only do you have a daughter that has ruined herself, but you will be held accountable for that, on judgment day.

Lucky for me that there won't be any such thing! <sighs with relief>

The example I gave in my other post was a general statement. I am a women, so I know how women think. I have also had the privilege of working in counseling with women who are still dealing with issues of insecurity due to having to many partners. As far as the circles you hang out in, well, misery/sin loves company.

Oooooh, I'm soooo miserable .....

Oh heck, look, that was an emotional response, I'll leave it so you can see how your words made me feel. But .... can't you see how silly this sounds? I can fully understand where you are coming from, but from my point of view I see my happy, successful daughter, then get an assertion that she is "ruined" and that I am "miserable" from someone that has never met either one of us.

I don't doubt that you know women that have made themselves miserable through "looking for love in all the wrong places". I fully support your suggestion that they would have been better off acting differently. All I'm asking is an acknowledgement that extra-marital sex is not automatically harmful to all women. People are different. What is good for one person may be very harmful to another. And, I am not advocating anything to anyone.

I will admit that according to your belief system I am sinful and will one day be subjected to eternal torture for it (is that right? Some say "separation from God" rather than torture.) But that's not what I believe, so I won't be worrying too much about it.

Sorry if I came over as disrespectful to your views. I didn't mean to upset you.

[India]

A clarification - my reference to 1 Cor 5 was actually in response to GraceInMe, not Russ. (Now that I've completed my workday, I can take a little more time to explain myself.)

While Alien's view of premarital sex is wrong and we Christians ought to state that openly, I don't think we should respond to it in the same way as we would to a Christian who made the same statement. A Christian is in the church and ought to be rebuked/disciplined as necessary. A non-Christian is not in the church and so those particular rules of discipline don't apply.

Non-Christians obviously aren't receiving instruction from the Bible, the Holy Spirit, etc. Maybe the things they are in error about, they wouldn't realize they're wrong about them until they became Christians and had the benefit of things like the Holy Spirit. I know something of Alien's beliefs and I don't think we are likely to change his mind on this topic; I think he has to come to know God first and be open to God's teaching on this before he would change his mind. So as I see it, the most constructive thing to do is to focus on pointing him to Christ (through prayer, conversation, etc.) while explaining Christian morality to him, but without "passing judgment" as we would on a Christian who said the same things.

[graceinme]

Today @ 02:37 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63350#post63350)
India:

A clarification - my reference to 1 Cor 5 was actually in response to GraceInMe.

Non-Christians obviously aren't receiving instruction from the Bible, the Holy Spirit, etc. Maybe the things they are in error about, they wouldn't realize they're wrong about them until they became Christians and had the benefit of things like the Holy Spirit. I know something of Alien's beliefs and I don't think we are likely to change his mind on this topic; I think he has to come to know God first and be open to God's teaching on this before he would change his mind. So as I see it, the most constructive thing to do is to focus on pointing him to Christ (through prayer, conversation, etc.) while explaining Christian morality to him, but without &quot;passing judgment&quot; as we would on a Christian who said the same things.


Good point India, I can definitely see where you are coming from. My concerns for the day and age we live in is that Christians are so afraid to tell people the truth anymore for fear of hurting their feelings, that people no longer know whats right and wrong. I also feel that accept for a few places left in the world, everyone has been reached with Christianity, especially in America and Europe. If someone is not a Christian it is because they have chosen not to accept it. We can not change that, only God can. The only thing that has come from Nice Christians is a tolerance for sin. I wanted Alien to know that what his daughter has done is a sin, and his encouragement and acceptance is also one. I say this to him out of love, in hopes that if he didn't care enough about his own eternal life, he would love her enough to change. I believe that everyone has that small voice in them telling them whats right and wrong. Maybe he will try to listen a little harder for her sake. Again I stress my deep concerns for both Alien and his daughter. If all this seems as if it is an emotional plea, well then your right it is. I hurt for them both.

Ps. I am not debating, all of this is my opinion, and I am extremely emotional.



:gim: Love Grace

[Rubia Warren]

Good post, grace. Woo hoo!:thumb:

[yxboom]

Today @ 08:54 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63019#post63019)
Alien:

Oooooh, I'm soooo miserable .....

Oh heck, look, that was an emotional response, I'll leave it so you can see how your words made me feel. But .... can't you see how silly this sounds? I can fully understand where you are coming from, but from my point of view I see my happy, successful daughter, then get an assertion that she is &quot;ruined&quot; and that I am &quot;miserable&quot; from someone that has never met either one of us.

Admit it. When you held your daughter for the first time, you gleefully awaited the days she would grow up be used by some horny adolescent (I realize you have no idea what I am talking about cause you were never one of those guys, rather from earlier statements clearly you were always looking for the next girl to put up on a pedastel while treating them like dime prostitutes). You just couldn't wait when she would then have no self respect and sleep around while being used by all her boyfriends and time permitting by so many more because after all there is a sure way to be successful isn't there. A proud father you are indeed.

Obviously Graceinme doesn't know you, yet you speak so freely for another person (Mr. Kettle :hrm:), specifically one of the opposite sex (which you later admit following) that Graceinme making the statements against you were just as accurate as your own statement of how well your daughter is. If the analyzation of you is incorrect than surely, you could offer better than this.

I don't doubt that you know women that have made themselves miserable through &quot;looking for love in all the wrong places&quot;. I fully support your suggestion that they would have been better off acting differently. All I'm asking is an acknowledgement that extra-marital sex is not automatically harmful to all women. People are different. What is good for one person may be very harmful to another. And, I am not advocating anything to anyone.

Granted yet you earlier wrote.

You are equating sex to the golden locket. I would say that the truly precious thing here is the love and commitment she (or he, certainly) gives to the supposed "soul mate". Whether or not she actually sleeps with the guy is immaterial. She's going to get hurt anyway if he doesn't share her feelings.

Maybe you have since changed your tune from yesterday which indicates progress otherwise this is a failed smokescreen attempt.

I will admit that according to your belief system I am sinful and will one day be subjected to eternal torture for it (is that right? Some say &quot;separation from God&quot; rather than torture.) But that's not what I believe, so I won't be worrying too much about it.

Sorry if I came over as disrespectful to your views. I didn't mean to upset you.

These were all emotional pleas back and forth, I wouldn't get too concerned over it. I don't like tuna and will tell you so, I am sure I won't lose any sleep over you adamently disagreeing. :brow:

[Alien]

Today @ 06:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63519#post63519)
graceinme:
Good point India, I can defiantly see where you are coming from. My concerns for the day and age we live in is that Christians are so afraid to tell people the truth anymore for fear of hurting their feelings, that people no longer know whats right and wrong. I also feel that accept for a few places left in the world, everyone has been reached with Christianity, especially in America and Europe. If someone is not a Christian it is because they have chosen not to accept it. We can not change that, only God can. The only thing that has come from Nice Christians is a tolerance for sin. I wanted Alien to know that what his daughter has done is a sin, and his encouragement and acceptance is also one. I say this to him out of love, in hopes that if he didn't care enough about his own eternal life, he would love her enough to change. I believe that everyone has that small voice in them telling them whats right and wrong. Maybe he will try to listen a little harder for her sake. Again I stress my deep concerns for both Alien and his daughter. If all this seems as if it is an emotional plea, well then your right it is. I hurt for them both.

I'd like to leave the subject of extramarital sex for a moment and talk more generally. If you guys have a mission to convince non-believers of your "truth" then so do I. It's fun having logical debates and I enjoy them from time to time, but I have found that my motivation in visiting Christian sites and getting to know the people there has more and more become one of putting over the atheist mindset. If you don't get that, then we will always be talking "past" each other.

First let me say that I appreciate your concern, if not your way of stating it. :)

OK, here goes. First, second and last, remember that for an atheist there is no god. That's a difficult one for Christians I know, but its essential. We aren't rejecting God. We aren't running away from God. We aren't rebelling against God. We quite simply don't believe there is any such critter.

If you can put yourself into that mindset for just a moment, you will see that remarks like "... if he didn't care enough about his own eternal life, he would love her enough to change" are totally meaningless to an atheist. What eternal life should I care about? I don't believe there is any life but this one.

Let me put the shoe on the other foot and see if it helps. How would you react if I said "There is a magic gremlin that talks to me and tells me that everyone should have as much sex with as many different people as possible. Anyone who remains a virgin until they get married will be punished for it." Your reaction would be "I don't believe in your magic gremlin so I don't place any weight on what he supposedly tells you."

That is how I react to your telling me that God commands this or that.

So, what is left? You can try to convince me with evidence. If there is really a case to be made that extramarital sex harms people then you've won, because, believe it or not, I do have a "still small voice". It tells me that behaviours that hurt people are wrong. But that's not because some god tells me, its just how I feel myself.

I've gone on a bit (again!), so I'll finish by agreeing with something both you and India said. Yes, I have been exposed to the Christian message, I could probably express it better than many Christians can. And yes, I have chosen not to accept it, for the same reason that you would not accept my message from the magic gremlin - I have never seen any evidence that came close to convincing me that God exists, let alone that He endorses the Christian message.

So yes, (and India and I have agreed on this after endless discussion) it would take a direct revelation of some sort for me to change my mind. If God doesn't choose to provide me with such a revelation, then atheist I will remain.

So, if you haven't fallen asleep already reading this, I'll wish both of you a very good night and an enjoyable weekend.

[Alien]

Today @ 09:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63615#post63615)
yxboom:
Admit it. When you held your daughter for the first time, you gleefully awaited the days she would grow up be used by some horny adolescent (I realize you have no idea what I am talking about cause you were never one of those guys, rather from earlier statements clearly you were always looking for the next girl to put up on a pedastel while treating them like dime prostitutes). You just couldn't wait when she would then have no self respect and sleep around while being used by all her boyfriends and time permitting by so many more because after all there is a sure way to be successful isn't there.

A question: When two people freely and happily agree to have sex together, who is using whom? Your argument is so full of presuppositions that it barely makes sense. We could as easiily say that the girls go round "using" the boys. As this has been the gist of what I have been trying to say all along, I guess I just haven't expressed myself very well. :(

A proud father you are indeed.

I am indeed. More proud and happy than you would ever believe.


Obviously Graceinme doesn't know you, yet you speak so freely for another person (Mr. Kettle :hrm:), specifically one of the opposite sex (which you later admit following) that Graceinme making the statements against you were just as accurate as your own statement of how well your daughter is. If the analyzation of you is incorrect than surely, you could offer better than this.

Your first paragraph took me three readings to extract its meaning, and this one has defeated me entirely. Maybe I'm tired after what has been quite a long day at work.

I made statements about a "Mr Kettle" that I later admitted following?

Maybe you have since changed your tune from yesterday which indicates progress otherwise this is a failed smokescreen attempt.

Same tune, no smokescreen, just an attempt (obviously failed as far as you are concerned) to explain my point of view.

These were all emotional pleas back and forth, I wouldn't get too concerned over it. I don't like tuna and will tell you so, I am sure I won't lose any sleep over you adamently disagreeing. :brow:

I know. I not concerned, but graceinme seemed bothered by it, so I thought I'd offer an olive branch.

[yxboom]

Today @ 02:37 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63350#post63350)
India:

A clarification - my reference to 1 Cor 5 was actually in response to GraceInMe, not Russ. (Now that I've completed my workday, I can take a little more time to explain myself.)

While Alien's view of premarital sex is wrong and we Christians ought to state that openly, I don't think we should respond to it in the same way as we would to a Christian who made the same statement. A Christian is in the church and ought to be rebuked/disciplined as necessary. A non-Christian is not in the church and so those particular rules of discipline don't apply.
Than I would admonish you the proper rule of Christian conduct in public rebukes of those in the church:
Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
In response to Graceinme, was the fault between her and you? And if it was, did you privately notify her of any fault? If you had did she disregard your private notification that you took before yourself and other witnesses that was than disregarded that warranted a public rebuke? :no:

Non-Christians obviously aren't receiving instruction from the Bible, the Holy Spirit, etc. Maybe the things they are in error about, they wouldn't realize they're wrong about them until they became Christians and had the benefit of things like the Holy Spirit. I know something of Alien's beliefs and I don't think we are likely to change his mind on this topic; I think he has to come to know God first and be open to God's teaching on this before he would change his mind. So as I see it, the most constructive thing to do is to focus on pointing him to Christ (through prayer, conversation, etc.) while explaining Christian morality to him, but without &quot;passing judgment&quot; as we would on a Christian who said the same things.

You make an excellent point however
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
Paul's declaration to Timothy was it only for members in a church?
1 Kings 18:27 And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, "Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."
These false prophets knew better right?
John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
Did these people :huh:
1 Corinthians 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
There it is.

If you are going to rebuke or judge......please do it appropriately next time.

[yxboom]

Today @ 09:15 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63646#post63646)
Alien:

A question: When two people freely and happily agree to have sex together, who is using whom? Your argument is so full of presuppositions that it barely makes sense. We could as easiily say that the girls go round &quot;using&quot; the boys. As this has been the gist of what I have been trying to say all along, I guess I just haven't expressed myself very well. :(
Reading this matter clearly shows that a lot on this thread have failed in expressing themselves well. I can accept that as to delve into the subjectiveness of your comment is not much of an interest for me right now.

I am indeed. More proud and happy than you would ever believe.
I'll just move on...

Your first paragraph took me three readings to extract its meaning, and this one has defeated me entirely. Maybe I'm tired after what has been quite a long day at work.
I spent a long time trying to make it as difficult as possible. Appears only I have succeeded in miscommunicating on purpose. :brow:

I made statements about a &quot;Mr Kettle&quot; that I later admitted following?

Same tune, no smokescreen, just an attempt (obviously failed as far as you are concerned) to explain my point of view.
Granted.

I know. I not concerned, but graceinme seemed bothered by it, so I thought I'd offer an olive branch.
Than I will remove my self to allow her to recieve it.

[Woman]

Alien,

Your honest posts are very touching and they remind me of what is truly "good" in men.

I think the problem most girls have when they are sexually active before marriage is that they are way too immature, usually don't have high self esteem to begin with and then tend to choose guys are are abusive emotionally.

Aslo, male or female, if you are brought up believeing that sex is dirty or shameful then it's going to be traumatic, especially if you are still a kid. I don't think it has much to do with religion in a practical sense. I was not religious and had healthy, open discussions with my parents about sex, drugs, morals etc. I chose not to have sex when I was a teen and I certainly don't regret that.

More important though is that the man I finally fell in love with respected not only me but himself. He was experienced but not promiscuous and didn't pressure me. We spent lots of dates in the company of others or doing things in a group or in public. I was in my early 20's when I made love for the first time and it was wonderful. We are happily married now and I've never regreted my decision. I have a close friend who waited until marriage (also because of a personal decision not due to religious beliefs.) Her husband was a virgin too and unfortunately had been brought up in a very restrictive atmosphere sexually. It has been almost impossible for him to reconcile his natural desires and all those years of supressed urges. He remains very "fussy" and disapproves of my friends passionate nature. It has become a serious problem for them.

On the other hand I know girls who were promiscuous and have never lived it down. In their own minds they are sluts and it's heartbreaking. They wish they had waited but are still sexually active so they have low opinions of themselves. The thing is they sometimes think that sex is all they really have to offer a man.

Kids have no business being intimate, but sex between consenting adults in a loving mature relationship is a profound experience. I do think that marriage and fidelity are very important especially in this age when instant gratification is the order of the day.

For those whose religion forbids it then there really isn't a decision, I guess. One thing I've noticed though is that some of the most vocal opponents are the ones who already "sowed their wild oats." If you aren't able able to remain chaste despite your best efforts, forgive yourself and move on. There are just way too many sins to get hung up on one of them.

My humble opinion.

[yxboom]

Woman this is the part that baffles me about Alien and your last post. I say this in hopes possibly you could clarify this.

You state that sex within a healthy mutually reciprocating love relationship is honorable. If this is an accurate summary of both of your positions than please explain to me what marriage is NOT.

At least in my mind, marriage is the binding of exactly what you both are claiming is beautiful and honorable in a relationship. Humans are creatures that identify signals and such. A ring on a finger is significant not in the ring but what it represents. The marriage contract is the representation of the commitment two people made to love and honor each other. If the relationships you both are claiming that is honorable then why the need to remove the commitment, the fidelity or those representations in the relationship? From what I have read you both state that love is wonderful and grand but you fail to acknowledge the role commitment plays in love. How can a relationship be so solid that to warrant sexual relations in your mind yet still keep it's integrity that you could walk out the next day no harm no foul.

[Socrates]

Woman:Also, male or female, if you are brought up believeing that sex is dirty or shameful then it's going to be traumatic, especially if you are still a kid. I don't think it has much to do with religion in a practical sense. It does, because Christianity regards sex as a good thing and a gift from God (see Song of Solomon). But it was His present only to be opened within marriage, as Jesus affirmed in Matthew 19:3-6/Mark 10:6-9, citing the Genesis creation account as real history.

Non-Biblical approaches degenerated into two extremes -- regarding sex as just an animal pleasure, so people abandon all self-control and become whoremongers or sluts; or thinking of it as dirty and something to be repressed at all costs apart from a sad necessity for procreation. The latter confuses sex with its abuse.

[yxboom]

Very well Socrates. My question remains....why the reason to remove the commitment given in marriage if all the attributes of marriage are involved? Appears there is more than I feel I am being let on.

[Woman]

Boom:
Woman this is the part that baffles me about Alien and your last post. I say this in hopes possibly you could clarify this.

You state that sex within a healthy mutually reciprocating love relationship is honorable. If this is an accurate summary of both of your positions than please explain to me what marriage is NOT.

At least in my mind, marriage is the binding of exactly what you both are claiming is beautiful and honorable in a relationship. Humans are creatures that identify signals and such. A ring on a finger is significant not in the ring but what it represents. The marriage contract is the representation of the commitment two people made to love and honor each other. If the relationships you both are claiming that is honorable then why the need to remove the commitment, the fidelity or those representations in the relationship? From what I have read you both state that love is wonderful and grand but you fail to acknowledge the role commitment plays in love. How can a relationship be so solid that to warrant sexual relations in your mind yet still keep it's integrity that you could walk out the next day no harm no foul.

Clearly I have not made myself clear. First, I didn't even use the word"honorable." I said "profound" and there is a big difference.

Second, how can you say that I "fail to acknowedge the role commitment plays in love" when I have clearly stated that I have had an intimate relationship with only one man in my life and that he is my beloved husband? Yet, others have posted on this thread with much wringing of hands and tears of regret (not for disobeying God but because it made them feel used or cheap) but because they are paying lip service to the idea of chastity, you don't accuse them of failure to acknowledge the role of commitment. It seems an easy thing to me to judge others by their rhetoric and not by their actions. I guess if I whispered furtively that I was a slut who had many partners in my teens - as long as I swore that it was wrong and sinful you would think more highly of me. Nevermind that I waited many years, that I successfully struggled with temptation because of a strong personal commitment...if the words aren't right then the actions mean nothing.

If I have misunderstood your position, please help me understand.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Socrates,

Do you think that a young girl who suffered from poor self esteem and was making very bad decisions regarding her sexual activity, drugs, etc. would more likely be turned from this behavior by:

1. Someone who was gentle and loving and told her how precious she is in God's eyes...that she deserves a man who will love and cherish her and take her for his wife...someone who says they believe in her and know that she can make decisions which are pleasing to God and best for her....

OR

2. Someone who calls her a slut and a whore and flatly declares that the men who have taken advantage of her are just whoremongers.

If the answer isn't obvious to you, I sincerely hope you do not have daughters.

[Vorkosigan]

Today @ 07:42 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63762#post63762)
yxboom:

Very well Socrates. My question remains....why the reason to remove the commitment given in marriage if all the attributes of marriage are involved? Appears there is more than I feel I am being let on.


The commitment given in marriage is social and is doubly-binding and doubly-privileging on both the couple and society. Two people having sex are, well, two people enjoying each others' minds and bodies. I do not understand your insistence that all acts of loving sex must end in or take place in marriage. Marriage is only one possible way that two (or more) people can relate to each other.

Vorkosigan

[yxboom]

Today @ 12:22 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63814#post63814)
Woman:

Boom:


Clearly I have not made myself clear. First, I didn't even use the word&quot;honorable.&quot; I said &quot;profound&quot; and there is a big difference.

Second, how can you say that I &quot;fail to acknowedge the role commitment plays in love&quot; when I have clearly stated that I have had an intimate relationship with only one man in my life and that he is my beloved husband? Yet, others have posted on this thread with much wringing of hands and tears of regret (not for disobeying God but because it made them feel used or cheap) but because they are paying lip service to the idea of chastity, you don't accuse them of failure to acknowledge the role of commitment. It seems an easy thing to me to judge others by their rhetoric and not by their actions. I guess if I whispered furtively that I was a slut who had many partners in my teens - as long as I swore that it was wrong and sinful you would think more highly of me. Nevermind that I waited many years, that I successfully struggled with temptation because of a strong personal commitment...if the words aren't right then the actions mean nothing.

If I have misunderstood your position, please help me understand.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


You totally missed my point. When I have more time I will clarify.

[Woman]

The commitment given in marriage is social and is doubly-binding and doubly-privileging on both the couple and society. Two people having sex are, well, two people enjoying each others' minds and bodies. I do not understand your insistence that all acts of loving sex must end in or take place in marriage. Marriage is only one possible way that two (or more) people can relate to each other.

Vorkosigan

Because, you fool, people who have an intimate relationship without permission are sluts and whoremongers!!!

:argh: It's really very simple if your world is black and white. Of course for those of us who live in a richly textured world of color, decision making and personal responsilility, it's NOT always so simple, is it?

[Socrates]

YXBoom:Very well Socrates. My question remains....why the reason to remove the commitment given in marriage if all the attributes of marriage are involved? Appears there is more than I feel I am being let on.I'm not sure what your question is. I firmly believe that sex should be saved for marriage.

Woman resorts to emotionalism:Do you think that a young girl who suffered from poor self esteem and was making very bad decisions regarding her sexual activity, drugs, etc. would more likely be turned from this behavior by:

1. Someone who was gentle and loving and told her how precious she is in God's eyes...that she deserves a man who will love and cherish her and take her for his wife...someone who says they believe in her and know that she can make decisions which are pleasing to God and best for her....

OR

2. Someone who calls her a slut and a whore and flatly declares that the men who have taken advantage of her are just whoremongers.

If the answer isn't obvious to you, I sincerely hope you do not have daughters.The answer is obvious, but not what you think. In a one-on-one interaction, then the former. I've made it clear that the sluts and whoremongers are those who glorify in promiscuity and try to justify it.

Woman:It's really very simple if your world is black and white. Of course for those of us who live in a richly textured world of color, decision making and personal responsilility, it's NOT always so simple, is it?Some of us don't get our morality from Pleasantville :brow:.

[yxboom]

Today @ 01:45 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63864#post63864)
Socrates:

YXBoom:Very well Socrates. My question remains....why the reason to remove the commitment given in marriage if all the attributes of marriage are involved? Appears there is more than I feel I am being let on.I'm not sure what your question is. I firmly believe that sex should be saved for marriage.

It is very late and I am an insomniac tonight bouncing off and on the site. I apologize that I was not more clear in my reply. The very well was that of a congratulatory nature in saying "well said" and the comment about "My question remains" was not directed towards you but from my previous post directed at Alien and Woman. My question remains to why they for all intents and purposes acknowledge the union of marriage yet deny the sanctity of it. As I noted before it appears a lot of us are not expressing ourselves well on this thread. Myself included.

[Rubia Warren]

:shy:


EXPRESS YOURSELF!
You've got to make him express himself....
Hey.. hey... hey.... hey.....
:rubia:








:nc: sorry. carry on.

[Woman]

Socrates:

Woman resorts to emotionalism:

Do you think that a young girl who suffered from poor self esteem and was making very bad decisions regarding her sexual activity, drugs, etc. would more likely be turned from this behavior by:

1. Someone who was gentle and loving and told her how precious she is in God's eyes...that she deserves a man who will love and cherish her and take her for his wife...someone who says they believe in her and know that she can make decisions which are pleasing to God and best for her....

OR

2. Someone who calls her a slut and a whore and flatly declares that the men who have taken advantage of her are just whoremongers.

If the answer isn't obvious to you, I sincerely hope you do not have daughters.

Emotionalism? Hardly, that question and statement were born of sheer pragmatism, something I think you lack now and than. In your ardent desire to be "right" your memory sometimes skips a beat.

Socrates:

The answer is obvious, but not what you think. In a one-on-one interaction, then the former. I've made it clear that the sluts and whoremongers are those who glorify in promiscuity and try to justify it.

Well, perhaps that is what you wish you had said or made clear...or even thought you said or meant to say...however, it is most difinitely NOT what you DID say. Your actual words were devoid of any such adjectives and nuances.

Soc:
a promiscuous woman is a slut, and promiscuous man is a whoremonger -- both are equally self-obsessed hedonists with a complete lack of self-control.


(Woman reminds :joy:LaRubia :joy: that they make DECAF now!)

:jade:

[Rubia Warren]

tee hee:dunce:
Sorry. I was up too late last night and got a little stupid toward the end.

[Woman]

La Rubia - LOL

I get that way at the drop of a hat!


:joy: :joy: :joy:

[Alien]

Yikes!!! This thread has really gotten away from me. I'll try to respond to those that asked me questions or flattered me outrageously. :)

Yesterday @ 10:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63668#post63668)
Woman:
Your honest posts are very touching and they remind me of what is truly &quot;good&quot; in men.

Thank you. At last my true goodness is recognised. Where were you when I was single?? (Sorry just kidding, I don't accept compliments well.) :)

I think the problem most girls have when they are sexually active before marriage is that they are way too immature, usually don't have high self esteem to begin with and then tend to choose guys are are abusive emotionally.

Yes. I've often wondered why some girls seem to gravitate to those that abuse them, then don't learn from the experience and move straight on to another of the same stripe. My wife says they feel they deserve to be abused (that's your low esteem I guess) and try to find someone that will treat them as they deserve. I don't know, It's probably not something a mere man should pontificate about. :)

Aslo, male or female, if you are brought up believeing that sex is dirty or shameful then it's going to be traumatic, especially if you are still a kid. I don't think it has much to do with religion in a practical sense. I was not religious and had healthy, open discussions with my parents about sex, drugs, morals etc. I chose not to have sex when I was a teen and I certainly don't regret that.

You were lucky. My parents never talked to me about sex at all, and it wasn't covered at school either. Of course that was a long time ago. It took me a while to get over the "sex is dirty" thing that was part of the culture of the time.. I never thought sex was wrong, I wanted to do it too much to ever admit that possibility, but it took me a long time to get over the "dirty" aspect which was like taking a dump, you know, necessary and not evil, but basically not very nice. But get over it I did, eventually.

More important though is that the man I finally fell in love with respected not only me but himself. He was experienced but not promiscuous and didn't pressure me.

Sounds like a nice guy.

I have a close friend who waited until marriage (also because of a personal decision not due to religious beliefs.) Her husband was a virgin too and unfortunately had been brought up in a very restrictive atmosphere sexually. It has been almost impossible for him to reconcile his natural desires and all those years of supressed urges. He remains very &quot;fussy&quot; and disapproves of my friends passionate nature. It has become a serious problem for them.

Yup. And you know what happens next, don't you? She meets someone else that shares her joy in sex, and doesn't thinks its dirty, and they have an affair.

It does worry me that people who abstain from sex (with each other) before they get married are taking a big risk of something like this happening. That's not to say that there should be a rule that all engaged couples should sleep together, but it could uncover this kind of incompatibility, and (in your example) she could have insisted on some counselling or something as a condition of continuing the relationship.

On the other hand I know girls who were promiscuous and have never lived it down. In their own minds they are sluts and it's heartbreaking. They wish they had waited but are still sexually active so they have low opinions of themselves. The thing is they sometimes think that sex is all they really have to offer a man.

Yes, that's sad. I truly think this society is sick in the way it deals with sex. If we gave young people the same guidance wrt driving cars that we do for sex, the accident rate would be double what it is now.

I'll deal with the rest of what you say when I reply to Boom.

My humble opinion.

And a good one. :)

[Alien]

Today @ 02:04 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63850#post63850)
Woman:
Because, you fool, people who have an intimate relationship without permission are sluts and whoremongers!!!

Interesting word, "whoremonger". When Socrates first used it I thought he was misusing it. The suffix "-monger" typically means someone who sells or deals in something professionally, as in "fishmonger". So, "whore" meaning "prostitute", the word should mean "pimp".

So I looked it up, and he's quite correct. Mirriam-Webster does not defiine "whoremonger" directly (its a very old word apparently), but refers to "whoremaster" (which you'd also think meant "pimp") which is defined as "a man consorting with whores or given to lechery". (Emphasis mine).

So there you are.

[Alien]

Yesterday @ 10:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63674#post63674)
yxboom:
Woman this is the part that baffles me about Alien and your last post. I say this in hopes possibly you could clarify this.

I take it this question is addressed to me also ....

You state that sex within a healthy mutually reciprocating love relationship is honorable. If this is an accurate summary of both of your positions than please explain to me what marriage is NOT.

At least in my mind, marriage is the binding of exactly what you both are claiming is beautiful and honorable in a relationship. Humans are creatures that identify signals and such. A ring on a finger is significant not in the ring but what it represents. The marriage contract is the representation of the commitment two people made to love and honor each other. If the relationships you both are claiming that is honorable then why the need to remove the commitment, the fidelity or those representations in the relationship? From what I have read you both state that love is wonderful and grand but you fail to acknowledge the role commitment plays in love. How can a relationship be so solid that to warrant sexual relations in your mind yet still keep it's integrity that you could walk out the next day no harm no foul.

I don't think Woman (love that name) would go as far as I am about to with this. I'm sure she'll tell us either way ... :)

I don't think that sex has to be considered differently from other (non-trivial) acts that form part of human relationships.

Lets take an example - two people form a business partnership. The prerequisites for their relationship are not so different from those of a marriage or other committed sexual relationship. They agree to certain rules that will be binding on both of them. They make sure they get along well together before entering the partnership (they are pretty dumb if they don't). They have mutual objectives. They limit each other's power to make independant decisions, etc, etc. There is opportunity for one to hurt the other by breaking the rules, for example, if one takes the cash and runs off, or enters into a business relationship with someone else without the permission of his/her partner.

So why don't we, when making moral judgements about business relationships, insist that the only honorable commitment is a permanent one?

My suggested answer is this. An honorable relationship is one where both (or all) parties abide by mutually agreed rules. Permanance is not required, so long as all parties agree.

To return to sexual relationships then, it follows that an honorable sexual relationship (which I define as one that includes sex, rather than the sexual act itself) can be anything from a one-night stand to a life-long marriage.

How can a one-night stand be honorable? Well, both parties must agree that one night is all that is expected. Neither must use unethical means to bring about the compliance of the other (this applies to all relationships, sexual or otherwise). Full disclosure of relevant matters must be made, like STDs and other relationships either party may be in. Practical matters, like who is to pay for the room, should be agreed and adhered to. (Don't laugh, a great night can be spoiled by someone skipping out on the bill).

Here are some other, less conventional, relationships that can be honorable if the rules are followed.

- Homosexual "marriage".

- Marriages with multiple partners. (More than two, I mean).

- (One that I sometimes think would be a good idea) where the marriage partners make a non-negotiable commitment to stay together until the children reach a given age, but then agree to separate if either of the partners wishes it on a "no fault" basis.

Anyway, that's enough examples to convey what I'm getting at. Let me finish by noting that a conventional marriage can be dishonorable if these rules are broken, with or without sexual infidelity being involved, and simply staying together in no way retrieves the situation.

I'll also agree in advance that a large proportion of sexual relations (including marriages, regrettably) do not qualify as honorable by these standards.

A final note (will this guy never shut up?): The above is based (as you would expect from an atheist) on a secular morality. If you believe that there is a god that has issued an edict that sex is only permissable within marriage, and you choose to follow that god, then that's how it is. Its another form of the honorable contract, I guess. God says "if you follow me you don't get to do it outside marriage" and you say "I agree". :)

Now I'll wait for the screams of protest. :)

[Sher]

Yesterday @ 12:45 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63668#post63668)
Woman:

Aslo, male or female, if you are brought up believeing that sex is dirty or shameful then it's going to be traumatic, especially if you are still a kid. I don't think it has much to do with religion in a practical sense. I was not religious and had healthy, open discussions with my parents about sex, drugs, morals etc. I chose not to have sex when I was a teen and I certainly don't regret that.You are very fortunate. I have a friend who was very open and honest with her daughters ... and the youngest, who is 15, is already a "used up" mess because of her choice to have sexual relations starting at 12. I think, personally, that her mother was quite a bit TOO open and honest. A little sheltering could have been a good thing.On the other hand I know girls who were promiscuous and have never lived it down. In their own minds they are sluts and it's heartbreaking. They wish they had waited but are still sexually active so they have low opinions of themselves. The thing is they sometimes think that sex is all they really have to offer a man.And I would submit that this attitude has come from the fact that they were promiscuous.Kids have no business being intimate, but sex between consenting adults in a loving mature relationship is a profound experience. I do think that marriage and fidelity are very important especially in this age when instant gratification is the order of the day.I agree wholeheartedly with you about the kids part (and the marriage part, of course), but not the consenting adults part. Promiscuity in adults is no less tramatic, just in a different way. No matter what anyone says, it is a loss that can never be regained ... and it does affect how a woman feels about herself. For those whose religion forbids it then there really isn't a decision, I guess. One thing I've noticed though is that some of the most vocal opponents are the ones who already &quot;sowed their wild oats.&quot; If you aren't able able to remain chaste despite your best efforts, forgive yourself and move on. There are just way too many sins to get hung up on one of them. I think the obvious point of this was to assist others ... see the o.p. ... to avoid the same mistakes. It is an easy to see fact that sexual sin leads to other things ... broken marriages, broken households, broken lives, broken spirits, unwanted pregnancies, unwanted diseases, unwanted problems. For a fortunate few, maybe they never reap the consequences ... or more likely, they do not admit to themselves and others how this has affected them ... and their future relationship with their spouse.

Just consider for a moment the sad barflies on Friday and Saturday nights, sitting at a bar looking for the next score ... often going home with someone ... anyone ... at 2 am to avoid being alone. Or who whine and cry years later about the spouse they met there and married, because they don't live up to their expections ... although what they actually expected to find in the bar is beyond reason.

Which brings up a point about "not measuring up". What happens when the one who "sowed wild oats" meets the future spouse of their dreams ... and later begins to compare them to past conquests because of other issues or because they grow "bored" with that partner ... being used to "variety"? What do you think that person, already shown to be indiscriminate about protecting their virtue, will do? Have an affair? Or multiple affairs? Leave the spouse (and possibly children) for another "piece of meat" that now appeals to them? It becomes the slippery slope, negating any fallacy with truth.

Perhaps some escape ... just as some escape death from drug abuse ... but why take that risk ... the chance of being one who doesn't.

[Woman]

Sherbear:
You are very fortunate. I have a friend who was very open and honest with her daughters ... and the youngest, who is 15, is already a "used up" mess because of her choice to have sexual relations starting at 12. I think, personally, that her mother was quite a bit TOO open and honest. A little sheltering could have been a good thing.

I was indeed fortunate to have the parents I did. But it was not fortune (luck) that their loving, open honesty about sex and drugs and their expectations and advice about self respect and personal responsibility had the desired effect on me.

It sounds like your friend was not such a parent. Perhaps your definition of "open and honest" and mine are very different. "Sheltering" is another issue. Sheltering and nurturing your child does not mean keeping them ignorant and hoping for the best. Nor does it mean moralizing lectures where fear and shame are the motivators, followed by lax supervision. I cannot imagine how a 12 year old child could be left alone in situations where sex was so easily decided on and practiced. That would never have happened in my family.

I feel sorry for a little girl whose childhood was brought to an end so prematurely. That "lipstick on the lollipop" syndrome is a sad one. I've seen mothers who live through their daughters and actually encourage seductive dress and allow them to be alone with boys for hours on end - then cannot understand why they wind up raising their grandchildren. I've also known Moms whose own dislike for men and sex has made them bitter and mean-spirited. This also doesn't work.

There's just no substitute for a mother and a father, in a healthy marriage with mutual respect. They can raise their daughters and sons to have high self esteem and long term goals. But this has little to do with keeping them either "sheltered" or letting them get their ideas about how to act from endless hours of MTV.

How can one be "too honest" with their families?
[Woman:]
On the other hand I know girls who were promiscuous and have never lived it down. In their own minds they are sluts and it's heartbreaking. They wish they had waited but are still sexually active so they have low opinions of themselves. The thing is they sometimes think that sex is all they really have to offer a man.

Sherbear:
And I would submit that this attitude has come from the fact that they were promiscuous.

I think you have the cause and effect reversed. Promiscuity is the result of poor self respect not the cause, though I would agree that once begun it can be a vicious cycle for young girls.

Woman:
Kids have no business being intimate, but sex between consenting adults in a loving mature relationship is a profound experience. I do think that marriage and fidelity are very important especially in this age when instant gratification is the order of the day.

Sherbear
I agree wholeheartedly with you about the kids part (and the marriage part, of course), but not the consenting adults part. Promiscuity in adults is no less tramatic, just in a different way.

Promiscuity was not the issue. Promiscuous behavior is by definition careless and irresponsibe. I would think that kind of indiscriminate activity would be unhealthy at any age.

Sherbear:
It is an easy to see fact that sexual sin leads to other things ... broken marriages, broken households, broken lives, broken spirits, unwanted pregnancies, unwanted diseases, unwanted problems.

Well, I would agree that cheating in marriage will certainly lead to broken marriages, households and lives. But let's be honest about causes here. Unwanted pregnancy results from unprotected sex not sin. (This happens in marriages too) Ditto with sexually transmitted diseases. Sin has little to do with it. It's irresponsible behavior that causes it.

Sherbear:
Just consider for a moment the sad barflies on Friday and Saturday nights, sitting at a bar looking for the next score ... often going home with someone ... anyone ... at 2 am to avoid being alone./[quote]

What a depressing scene. I'm sure there are many people who are promiscuous, sad and pathetic who have made and continue to make bad decisions, but I'm not sure what that has to do with normal, healthy responsible adults who are living happy lives.

Sherbear:
[quote]Or who whine and cry years later about the spouse they met there and married, because they don't live up to their expections ... although what they actually expected to find in the bar is beyond reason.

I can't argue with that

Sherbear:
Which brings up a point about "not measuring up". What happens when the one who "sowed wild oats" meets the future spouse of their dreams ... and later begins to compare them to past conquests because of other issues
(not sure what this means)
or because they grow "bored" with that partner ... being used to "variety"? What do you think that person, already shown to be indiscriminate about protecting their virtue, will do? Have an affair? Or multiple affairs? Leave the spouse (and possibly children) for another "piece of meat" that now appeals to them?

I have no idea how to address this as it seems to have little to do with anything I support.

[Socrates]

Woman:Emotionalism? Hardly, that question and statement were born of sheer pragmatism, something I think you lack now and than. In your ardent desire to be "right" your memory sometimes skips a beat.Truth is actually important to me, because I believe that there is such a thing as objective right and wrong.

Socrates:

The answer is obvious, but not what you think. In a one-on-one interaction, then the former. I've made it clear that the sluts and whoremongers are those who glorify in promiscuity and try to justify it.

Woman:Well, perhaps that is what you wish you had said or made clear...or even thought you said or meant to say...however, it is most difinitely NOT what you DID say. Your actual words were devoid of any such adjectives and nuances.Only because this is a debate forum not a counselling session.

Soc:

a promiscuous woman is a slut, and promiscuous man is a whoremonger -- both are equally self-obsessed hedonists with a complete lack of self-control.

You have forgotten the context. This was after a few people thought there were double standards, because some men allegedly think promiscuous women were sluts while it was OK for men to be promiscuous. So the word slut was already on the thread, and I was countering these double standards by labelling promiscuous men just as harshly.

"Whoremonger" is one way the KJV translates the Greek pornos (from which we get the word "pornography"), meaning a sexually immoral man, fornicator.

[Woman]

Soc,

Point taken. And yes, I do know your integrity is important to you.

Just keeping you on yer toes! You don't expect me to cut you any slack now do you?

:brow:

[Socrates]

:bow: Nope, that would never do :juggle: And what are you doing up at this hour? :jade:

I agree with Woman's comment here:There's just no substitute for a mother and a father, in a healthy marriage with mutual respect. They can raise their daughters and sons to have high self esteem and long term goals. But this has little to do with keeping them either "sheltered" or letting them get their ideas about how to act from endless hours of MTV.Indeed, a stable marriage IS best for the kids. That's why I object to any moves to undermine this, which include any teachings that sex is acceptable in any other context apart from marriage. And indeed parents should teach kids about sex -- far better than amoral educrats teaching them that anything goes, or relying on immoral TV shows to teach them.

[Woman]

Nope, that would never do And what are you doing up at this hour?

Oh I've become addicted to cable TV (FOX generally)

BTW, I just sent a fax to them asking for a feature on our Aussie mates who joined the coalition and according to all rumors are "kicking butt."

:jade:

[Socrates]

Cool! We were glad to help liberate the Iraqi people, and the cheering in the streets of Iraqi refugees here, and in the streets of Baghdad itself, is ample reward.

Lets hope this will start a trend of Americans realising that there are other countries in the world. And that they will lift trade barriers to Australian sheep meat, i.e. practise the free trade they preach to everyone else. At present, Congress kowtows to the greedy and inefficient sheepfarming lobby responsible for making lamb incredibly expensive for ordinary consumers.

[PRAISE]

04-06-2003 @ 10:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=56746#post56746)
dawnghost:

you know, I will be a virgin till the day I marry, but I'd like to know your views on the subject.

why shouldn't someone engage in sexual activity before marriage?



DAWNGHOST: Amen, my brother!:thumb: You are so right in your views! I am 48, & also a virgin. A lot of people think that I am very strange, but I KNOW that Giod wants me to stay pure in His eyes! I used to think that my virginity was a curse, but since I came back to the Lord on 1/11/03-I have come to realize that maintaining sexual purity is one of the most important things that we can do! It shows our committment to trust in God that He will help us through all those sexual temptations that we face, ( & brother, are there a lot of them out there today!). God will give us the victory-if we totally put our trust in Him! God bless you, my brother! I love you, man!

PRAISE!:thumb:

[dawnghost]

Today @ 01:55 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=65497#post65497)
PRAISE:
God will give us the victory-if we totally put our trust in Him!

amen, my brother.
I'd rather remain a virgin till the day I die than to waste love with someone that's not worth it.

that reminds me of an Iron Maiden song:

Dream on brother, while you can
Dream on sister, I hope you find the one
All of our lives, covered up quickly
by the tides of time

Sands are flowing and the lines
are in your hand
In your eyes I see the hunger, and the
desperate cry that tears the night

Spend your days full of emptiness
Spend your years full of loneliness
Wasting love, in a desperate caress
Rolling shadows of nights

[Woman]

Soc:
Cool! We were glad to help liberate the Iraqi people, and the cheering in the streets of Iraqi refugees here, and in the streets of Baghdad itself, is ample reward.

Lets hope this will start a trend