The Greatness Of Judaism

[The Creep]

Judaism is the greatest religion on the planet because it is a religion of ultimate tenderness - a tenderness for God and a tenderness for humanity.
Martin Buber was a true saint for the twentieth century and great praise must also be lavished on Doctor Abraham Joshua Heschel. If Catholicism is the religion of "things" or the spiritual glory of matter, than Judaism must be described as the religion of time. There is an old rabbinic dictate "Sleep faster! We need the pillows!" That joke both mocks and celebrates Jewish patience, a patience greater than the angry patience of Job.
The essence of Judaism is almost too complex and too mysterious to describe. But I will attempt to describe that essence by saying that Jewish spirituality is a quiet but firm rejection of all other spiritualities that would seek to destroy humanness by making human beings into gods or, by a dreadful self-profanation, reduce and scatter the human impulses into the fragmentation of mere atoms.
Constantly, as I contemplate the word "jew" another word comes to mind - the word "humane".
Judaism is the most earthly and humble religion on the planet. No other religion is as much both "earth-bound" with its head, also, in heaven.

[Cherith]

Judaism is the most earthly and humble religion on the planet.

I hesitate to even engage such a person, but here goes...

Your humility astounds us all, just second to the appropriateness of your handle.

:innocent: :angel:

[shunyadragon]

Judaism is the greatest religion on the planet because it is a religion of ultimate tenderness - a tenderness for God and a tenderness for humanity.
Martin Buber was a true saint for the twentieth century and great praise must also be lavished on Doctor Abraham Joshua Heschel. If Catholicism is the religion of "things" or the spiritual glory of matter, than Judaism must be described as the religion of time. There is an old rabbinic dictate "Sleep faster! We need the pillows!" That joke both mocks and celebrates Jewish patience, a patience greater than the angry patience of Job.
The essence of Judaism is almost too complex and too mysterious to describe. But I will attempt to describe that essence by saying that Jewish spirituality is a quiet but firm rejection of all other spiritualities that would seek to destroy humanness by making human beings into gods or, by a dreadful self-profanation, reduce and scatter the human impulses into the fragmentation of mere atoms.
Constantly, as I contemplate the word "jew" another word comes to mind - the word "humane".
Judaism is the most earthly and humble religion on the planet. No other religion is as much both "earth-bound" with its head, also, in heaven.

I will give this more thought, but I definitely do not agree with it. As a Baha'i I am closer to the Hebrew theology than Christian.

The narrowness of the spiritual view of Judism does not reflect humility.

The statement '. . . essence by saying that Jewish spirituality is a quiet but firm rejection of all other spiritualities . . .' reflects the underlying isolation of Judism that in itself leads to violence.

More on this soon, Buddhist and Baha'i both reflect a more humble view of spirituality that does not put them apart from others overtly rejecting other spiritualities because they believe others . . . would seek to destroy humanness by making human beings into gods or, by a dreadful self-profanation, reduce and scatter the human impulses into the fragmentation of mere atoms.

[The Creep]

The Baha'i religion is the most air-headed and rediculous religion on the planet. Poor planet earth has had to suffer too many spiritual diseases and follys. Baha'i is one of the worst. If you are Baha'i and as you read this you get a bit hot under the collar than you should ask yourself if your response to my tirade is Holy. If you have no response, if you are a complete airhead - as I believe you are - you will probably be filled with feelings of benevolence - or whatever kind of rubbish feelings you choose to be filled with.
Judaism is the top religion because it is the exact anti-thesis to that most stupid and dull of religions - Baha'i. Judaism is a human religion - full of blood and sweat and tears. That is the opposite of that grotesquely airheaded "faith" Baha'i. Baha'i is a religion of malice because it shows no respect to other religions. It shows no respect by its blasphemously stupid suggestion that all religions are the same. Only someone who hated religions could come up with the idiotic idea that all major religions are essentially walking down the same path.
Judaism remains a stark and dramatic contrast to this stupid idea, making the rounds, that all religions are equal. I praise and adore the jews for holding fast to that dificult idea that all human beings are different.

[shunyadragon]

The Baha'i religion is the most air-headed and rediculous religion on the planet. Poor planet earth has had to suffer too many spiritual diseases and follys. Baha'i is one of the worst. If you are Baha'i and as you read this you get a bit hot under the collar than you should ask yourself if your response to my tirade is Holy. If you have no response, if you are a complete airhead - as I believe you are - you will probably be filled with feelings of benevolence - or whatever kind of rubbish feelings you choose to be filled with.
Judaism is the top religion because it is the exact anti-thesis to that most stupid and dull of religions - Baha'i. Judaism is a human religion - full of blood and sweat and tears. That is the opposite of that grotesquely airheaded "faith" Baha'i. Baha'i is a religion of malice because it shows no respect to other religions. It shows no respect by its blasphemously stupid suggestion that all religions are the same. Only someone who hated religions could come up with the idiotic idea that all major religions are essentially walking down the same path.
Judaism remains a stark and dramatic contrast to this stupid idea, making the rounds, that all religions are equal. I praise and adore the jews for holding fast to that dificult idea that all human beings are different.

No problem. I am a Baha'i and not hot under the collar. Your statement does not reflect . . . the greatest religion on the planet because it is a religion of ultimate tenderness - a tenderness for God and a tenderness for humanity.. It is a very hateful, belittling and bitter tyrad about someone elses belief that you do not understand well. No tenderness whatsoever in your statement and not much room for a debate.

The Baha'i Faith does not consider all religions the 'same'. It considers all religions to be from the same source God. Baha'i believes in the diversity of religion, but also the accepts the unfortunate corruption of religion by those that want to mold into their own image. The Baha'i view of other religions and beliefs is far more respectful than saying other religions and beliefs . . . would seek to destroy humanness by making human beings into gods or, by a dreadful self-profanation, reduce and scatter the human impulses into the fragmentation of mere atoms.

[The Creep]

Shunyadragon, Sir, I apologize to you for my absurdly stupid remarks concerning your faith. I have no good excuse for them and so I ask you to forgive me for my manifest folly. I salute your good-will, a force you maintain under unwarranted pressure and I hope we may collaborate together in the future. Again, I ask you to pardon my unsolicted insolence.
most respectfully, The Creep

[shunyadragon]

Shunyadragon, Sir, I apologize to you for my absurdly stupid remarks concerning your faith. I have no good excuse for them and so I ask you to forgive me for my manifest folly. I salute your good-will, a force you maintain under unwarranted pressure and I hope we may collaborate together in the future. Again, I ask you to pardon my unsolicted insolence.
most respectfully, The Creep

No problem whatsoever. You were forgiven before you spoke. I am looking forward to future dialogue.

As I said before the theology of Judism is in some ways closer to mine than Christianity.

[Timothy Leary]

The statement '. . . essence by saying that Jewish spirituality is a quiet but firm rejection of all other spiritualities . . .' reflects the underlying isolation of Judism that in itself leads to violence.

Does it? Exactly how often do Observant Jews start wars? And what's wrong with rejecting Idolatary?

[Timothy Leary]

I thought that Islam teaches that Judaism is a corrupted religion, and that Islam is the greatest religion?

Judaism is the greatest religion on the planet because it is a religion of ultimate tenderness - a tenderness for God and a tenderness for humanity.
Martin Buber was a true saint for the twentieth century and great praise must also be lavished on Doctor Abraham Joshua Heschel. If Catholicism is the religion of "things" or the spiritual glory of matter, than Judaism must be described as the religion of time. There is an old rabbinic dictate "Sleep faster! We need the pillows!" That joke both mocks and celebrates Jewish patience, a patience greater than the angry patience of Job.
The essence of Judaism is almost too complex and too mysterious to describe. But I will attempt to describe that essence by saying that Jewish spirituality is a quiet but firm rejection of all other spiritualities that would seek to destroy humanness by making human beings into gods or, by a dreadful self-profanation, reduce and scatter the human impulses into the fragmentation of mere atoms.
Constantly, as I contemplate the word "jew" another word comes to mind - the word "humane".
Judaism is the most earthly and humble religion on the planet. No other religion is as much both "earth-bound" with its head, also, in heaven.

[WebToaster]

No problem whatsoever. You were forgiven before you spoke. I am looking forward to future dialogue.

As I said before the theology of Judism is in some ways closer to mine than Christianity.
Wow! Frank you handled that response with amazing grace and patience. Pearls for you!

[WebToaster]

I thought that Islam teaches that Judaism is a corrupted religion, and that Islam is the greatest religion? After reading quite a few posts from "The Creep" I'm fairly certain "The Creep" is not a Muslim, so I'm not sure why he has the Muslim avatar.

[The Creep]

I want to address the question regarding "idolotry". Idolotry is merely the ultimate form of tyranny. Jesus of Nazareth said that whoever commits a sin is slave to that sin. There is sort of a addictions model of sin working in the New Testament.
The Moslims cry "God is great!' and I think only a fool would dispute the wisdom of such a cry. One of the great forces that compells Islam is a hatred of tyranny (idolotry) and a passionate and even exaggerated concern with justice.

[shunyadragon]

I thought that Islam teaches that Judaism is a corrupted religion, and that Islam is the greatest religion?
All religions of the same lineage to some extent feel the religions of the past are corrupted and they represent a time of rebirth and renewal of belief. In the Koran it says, even though Judism and Christianity have the same book they violently disagree. It will be God who will judge who is right in the next world.

[Goose]

In the Koran it says, even though Judism and Christianity have the same book they violently disagree.That's interesting, because Jews and Christians don't use the same books. Jews use the Hebrew, while Christians use the English and Greek translations for the most part.

[shunyadragon]

Does it? Exactly how often do Observant Jews start wars? And what's wrong with rejecting Idolatary?Nothing wrong with rejecting adolatry, but how are you defining idloatry? One persons religion is often described as anothers idolatry. The destruction of the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan was done in the name of rejecting idolatry.

Seperation by exclusiveness is a source of violence. The need to tolerate another because they are different breds intolerance.

Well the OT is full of wars waged by Observant Jews. I consider the Middle East war over Isreal a war of semitic cousins waging war over the same homeland they are all entittled too. There are no angels when war is waged in the name of religion.

[Goose]

Seperation by exclusiveness is a source of violence. The need to tolerate another because they are different breds intolerance.Total tolerance leads to lackluster morality, hypocrisy and ultimately, death. When you not only tolerate, but embrace contradicting beliefs, you create a schizophrenic belief system where there is no right or wrong way. This leads to the inhability to make clear and beneficial decisions, thereby leading to things like hypocrisy, immorality, mental illness and ultimately death.

[The Creep]

there is a difference between moral schizophrenia and flexibility of the sprit. If Adolph Hitler had had a true flexibility of the spirity he would not have attempted to destroy the Jews. Total tolerance leads to lackluster morality, hypocrisy and ultimately, death. When you not only tolerate, but embrace contradicting beliefs, you create a schizophrenic belief system where there is no right or wrong way. This leads to the inhability to make clear and beneficial decisions, thereby leading to things like hypocrisy, immorality, mental illness and ultimately death.

[Goose]

there is a difference between moral schizophrenia and flexibility of the sprit. If Adolph Hitler had had a true flexibility of the spirity he would not have attempted to destroy the Jews.What?

[shunyadragon]

Total tolerance leads to lackluster morality, hypocrisy and ultimately, death. When you not only tolerate, but embrace contradicting beliefs, you create a schizophrenic belief system where there is no right or wrong way. This leads to the inhability to make clear and beneficial decisions, thereby leading to things like hypocrisy, immorality, mental illness and ultimately death.It depends upon whether you consider religions contradicting. Older religions have to deal with a schizophrenia of chosing between the contradictions of ancient beliefs and the modern world.

How does the modern Jew or Christian deal with the God ordered genocide, laws allowing slavery, and other cruel acts of scripture. Are these still adaquate guidance for todays world? Do you make up your own rules to compensate for the failure of sacred texts to deal with moral issues today? Can you use the Biblical standards for morals when writing modern laws for rape and the role of women in society?

Hypocrisy, immorality and mental illness are universal and could hardly be used as stones to throw at other people who believe differently.

The beliefs and actions of the Baha'i Faith could hardly be called immoral, but the actions of God and the Hebrews in the OT could be called moral by todays standards.

[The Creep]

there will never be a world free from contradiction. even the bible has thousands and thousands of contradiction. the genius of judaism consists of the power to derive tenderness and sanity out of the contradictions. i am not a jew but i must say that judaism is the greatest religion on the planet.

[Goose]

It depends upon whether you consider religions contradicting.Of course all religions are different. If they weren't different, they would be the same religion. Anyone who believes Catholicism, Judaism, Isam, etc. are the same, are ignorant and/or fools. This is just simple logic.

[The Creep]

We are all on a ship of fools. In part, we owe Judaism for that great insight.

[Goose]

We are all on a ship of fools.Speak for yourself.

[The Creep]

I do. But that awareness wont stop the raping, torturing, mutilation and murder of girls in Sudan.

[shunyadragon]

Of course all religions are different. If they weren't different, they would be the same religion. Anyone who believes Catholicism, Judaism, Isam, etc. are the same, are ignorant and/or fools. This is just simple logic.
Never made the claim that the religions are the same. The represent the human view of Divine revelation i different times and places influenced by different languages and cultures and corrupted by human vanity trying to build towers to God.

[Timothy Leary]

Nothing wrong with rejecting adolatry, but how are you defining idloatry? One persons religion is often described as anothers idolatry. The destruction of the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan was done in the name of rejecting idolatry.

If the statues had been elevated to the status of idols, then the destruction was justified.


Seperation by exclusiveness is a source of violence. The need to tolerate another because they are different breds intolerance.

Inclusion of everything leads down to the same destruction.


Well the OT is full of wars waged by Observant Jews.

Are you saying that God was wrong in ordering these wars?

[Timothy Leary]

How does the modern Jew or Christian deal with the God ordered genocide,

By looking into the reasons

laws allowing slavery,

Their were laws regarding slavery. I don't have a problem with slavery, but rather when it is done unjustly. I can't remember the exact reference, but I believe this is one of the reasons that God freed Israel from Egypt.


and other cruel acts of scripture.

Cruel, or cruel to "modern" society?

Are these still adaquate guidance for todays world?

Unless you believe in a changing God, yes.

Do you make up your own rules to compensate for the failure of sacred texts to deal with moral issues today?

Such as?

Can you use the Biblical standards for morals when writing modern laws for rape and the role of women in society?

Is there something wrong with that?

The beliefs and actions of the Baha'i Faith could hardly be called immoral, but the actions of God and the Hebrews in the OT could be called moral by todays standards.

Why? Because they comply to "modern society" - whose standards are constantly in flux?

[shunyadragon]

By looking into the reasons



Their were laws regarding slavery. I don't have a problem with slavery, but rather when it is done unjustly. I can't remember the exact reference, but I believe this is one of the reasons that God freed Israel from Egypt.You may not, but I have a problem with slavery. The OT had laws for Indentured servatude for Hebrews and foreign slaves. Foreign slaves were bought and sold. This includes thier children, grandchildren and so on. The laws for indentured servatude were very different than those for slavery.

God freed the Hebrews from Egypt, because they were Hebrews. I am sure there were other peoples who were slaves such as Africans. They were not freed also.

Cruel, or cruel to "modern" society? Cruel

Unless you believe in a changing God, yes. Humanity is diverse, evolves and changes. God does not.

Such as?The Bible, OT and NT, does not provide a law forbidding rape for all women. We have to come up with one ourselves. An eye for an eye would not be an acceptable today.



Is there something wrong with that?
Yes. It means the Biblical moral code is inadaquate for today.

Why? Because they comply to "modern society" - whose standards are constantly in flux?The moral standards of the world have constantly changed for everyone. The Baha'i laws do not comply to 'modern society'. They set the standard.

The Baha'i Faith is the first religion to have laws for:

(1) The prohibition of slavery, indentured servitude and child labor.

(2) Social and legal equality of women.

(3) Rape for all women of all stations in life.

(4) Harmony of Science and Religion. Religious doctrine cannot restrict or limit the advancement of science. In fact religious doctrine must accept the results of the investigations of science into the knowledge of the physical universe, realizing that with time science does progress and change as the primary repository of knowledge of physical existence.

(5) Universal standards and codes taking into consideration the diversity of the people of the world.

(6) Universal compulsary education.

(7) Independent investigation of truth. The doctrine of religion cannot restrict the academic and individual search for knowledge.

[The Creep]

Perhaps, but there is still a genocide taking place in Sudan.

[shunyadragon]

If the statues had been elevated to the status of idols, then the destruction was justified.
The destruction was done in ignorance of Buddhist beliefs. These were archeological treasures of an ancient people. They should not be destroyed regardless of their motivation when they made them.

The justification you are using is very dangerous. The ends justify the means can be a terrible and arbitrary way to justify anything.

Inclusion of everything leads down to the same destruction.Can you support this statment with anything other than mythology.

Are you saying that God was wrong in ordering these wars?I do not believe God ordered te wars. I believe the Hebrews justified the wars in the name of God as they do today.

[The Creep]

What you we die for? And what should we fight for?

[shunyadragon]

What you we die for? And what should we fight for?
Usually when there is Holy War, both sides are protagonists causing the conflict.
In the corrent Middle East war three reigions are involved. In Ireland, two churches. In India and Pakistan there are three religions. In these conflicts there are no angels. The only reason they are fighting is religion.

I can imagine there are causes to fight and die for, but it would have to be a just cause where you are defending against attack. WWI and WW II would likely be just causes to fight and die for.

[The Creep]

If your own heart is filled with love than act on that love. If your heart is full of hate or apathy than vote republican.

[Jezz]

In the Koran it says, even though Judism and Christianity have the same book they violently disagree.

That's interesting, because Jews and Christians don't use the same books. Jews use the Hebrew, while Christians use the English and Greek translations for the most part.
Goose, this is such an incredibly incorrect, misdirected and misleading comment that I hardly know where to begin. Christians use English translations for the most part?

1. We're talking about the Koran, here. I'm sure Mohammed would be interested to know that Christians used English translations for the most part. He would have been especially interested, because the Bible would not be translated into English for another 600 years. And in fact, he probably would have been very interested to even discover that the English language existed - given that the language was a newcomer (~500 AD) in a land far away from Palestine and Mohammed had probably heard of neither the land nor the language.
2. Historically, most Christians didn't speak English at all. England didn't become a colonial power until the 17th century or so, and before that English Christianity was confined to England.
3. Even today, most Christians don't speak English as their first language, if at all. Remember, the US is not the only nation in the world where Christianity exists.

You're also being misleading by blurring the distinction between usage of a language for everyday reading, and usage of a language for doing theology. Of course most churches in English-speaking areas will use an English translation when doing Bible reading for the masses. Jews do the same, don't they? In fact, the Bible itself records at least one example of the Torah being translated into the vernacular of the masses that I can think of (when the Jews returned from exile in Babylon most of them didn't understand Hebrew, so Ezra had to translate it into Aramaic for them as he read it).

But when doing theology, no mainstream Christian church uses English (aside from a few KJV-only nuts). Generally, they will use all of the ancient resources they have available to them - Aramaic, Greek, Coptic, Arabic, Latin... and yes, they will use Hebrew as well. In my local seminary, I believe that the students are presented with a complementary copy of the Hebrew Bible for this very purpose - the same Hebrew Bible that Jews use. Heck, I happen to know one of the lecturers there, and when he studied the Hebrew Bible, he actually studied under a Jewish Rabbi and was in fact the only Christian in a class of Jews.

To claim that the Christians "use English and Greek translations for the most part" is simply incorrect. In particular, I find it extremely amusing that you consider that Christians rely "on the most part" on a translation that didn't even exist for well over half of the religion's history, and even today is not understood by the majority of Christians. That is an extremely grapho-centric comment and reflects a very poor understanding of Christianity and of history in general.

Total tolerance leads to lackluster morality, hypocrisy and ultimately, death. When you not only tolerate, but embrace contradicting beliefs, you create a schizophrenic belief system where there is no right or wrong way. This leads to the inhability to make clear and beneficial decisions, thereby leading to things like hypocrisy, immorality, mental illness and ultimately death.
This comment, on the other hand, I completely agree with. Very well put. :thumb:

[shunyadragon]

Perhaps, but there is still a genocide taking place in Sudan.

Perhaps what? Genocide today in Africa is related to tribal and religious conflicts. Islam and Christian churches have been directly implicated in the Genocide in some countries in all tribal conflicts are involved. This is the archeac older religions playing out the violent roles of the past like in Ireland and Yugoslavia.

[shunyadragon]

If your own heart is filled with love than act on that love. If your heart is full of hate or apathy than vote republican.

What is a political statement doing in this thread? It would be more relavent for you to respond to posts concerning the theme of the thread.

[Timothy Leary]

The Bible, OT and NT, does not provide a law forbidding rape for all women. We have to come up with one ourselves. An eye for an eye would not be an acceptable today.

Sorry I didn't get back to this thread sooner. Deut. 22:25-27 is one of the laws that covers rape. Gimme a day or two and I'll get the rest.

[Timothy Leary]

The destruction was done in ignorance of Buddhist beliefs. These were archeological treasures of an ancient people. They should not be destroyed regardless of their motivation when they made them.

Then it'd be against the Torah.


I do not believe God ordered te wars. I believe the Hebrews justified the wars in the name of God as they do today.

So how do you view all the texts in the bible that say the opposite?

[Timothy Leary]

Perhaps what? Genocide today in Africa is related to tribal and religious conflicts. Islam and Christian churches have been directly implicated in the Genocide in some countries in all tribal conflicts are involved. This is the archeac older religions playing out the violent roles of the past like in Ireland and Yugoslavia.

So in other words your saying that it's all the tribes fault, and that there isn't any possiblity that the Abrahamic religions were involved?

[shunyadragon]

So in other words your saying that it's all the tribes fault, and that there isn't any possiblity that the Abrahamic religions were involved?
Please word it a little better. Your statement does not address my post. The tribe is not at fault. The religious teaching of past religions that people cling to in the present have a great deal to do with the problems.

[shunyadragon]

Then it'd be against the Torah.



So how do you view all the texts in the bible that say the opposite?
I do not consider the Bible literal. I believe it was writen by those who wish to justify themselves. It is not a big stretch form doing something in the name of God and God told me to do it.

[shunyadragon]

Sorry I didn't get back to this thread sooner. Deut. 22:25-27 is one of the laws that covers rape. Gimme a day or two and I'll get the rest.
As far as I can see this applies only to a woman who is betrothed.

[Timothy Leary]

In all due respect, then your religion has no right to claim the bible as one of it's holy books.

I do not consider the Bible literal. I believe it was writen by those who wish to justify themselves. It is not a big stretch form doing something in the name of God and God told me to do it.

[Timothy Leary]

As far as I can see this applies only to a woman who is betrothed.

I inquired about which laws would cover rape on a private forum, and was told that it would falling under the laws against kidnapping, which makes perfect sense to me. Hakham Gordon specifically mentioned that "Dt 22:26 makes it clear that a woman who raped is likened to a murder victim."

[shunyadragon]

I inquired about which laws would cover rape on a private forum, and was told that it would falling under the laws against kidnapping, which makes perfect sense to me. Hakham Gordon specifically mentioned that "Dt 22:26 makes it clear that a woman who raped is likened to a murder victim."
This makes absolutely no sense. I thought it would come to this, but no cigar. A women can be raped, and kidnapping and murder as defined in the OT would not apply. The reason these laws would not apply is that other laws do define what would be considered illgal and illicite sexual acts.

The OT lacks a law that would define rape properly.:eek:

[shunyadragon]

In all due respect, then your religion has no right to claim the bible as one of it's holy books.There is no 'In all due respect' in your comment. I take it that you agree that it is just and proper for God to order the genocide of women, children and babies. In some instances for the sins of their ancestors.

I do not. Interpreting ancient books literally can lead to all kinds of interesting contradictions. There are better documented more ancient books about real historical figures that I would say that neither of us would be willing to inteprete literally.

[Timothy Leary]

Why not? Why can't it be placed under the law of kidnapping? Think about it, when a person is raped they are taken by someone else against their will, and the person has their pleasure with them. Sometimes the rape victim is freed, othertimes he/she isn't. As far as I can see, Kidnapping + Sex = Rape. Rape - Sex = Kidnapping.

[shunyadragon]

Why not? Why can't it be placed under the law of kidnapping? Think about it, when a person is raped they are taken by someone else against their will, and the person has their pleasure with them. Sometimes the rape victim is freed, othertimes he/she isn't. As far as I can see, Kidnapping + Sex = Rape. Rape - Sex = Kidnapping.You are grasping at straws and you know the Hebrew and you know better than that, the original text does not work that way. kidnapping is kidnapping, rape is rape.

[Timothy Leary]

No, I'm not. For example, Driving on the Sabbath is forbidden because it falls under the command not to kindle fires on the Sabbath, and (for long distances) the command to stay in your makom (http://1.ancient-paths.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=37&page=1).

You are grasping at straws and you know the Hebrew and you know better than that, the original text does not work that way. kidnapping is kidnapping, rape is rape.

[shunyadragon]

No, I'm not. For example, Driving on the Sabbath is forbidden because it falls under the command not to kindle fires on the Sabbath, and (for long distances) the command to stay in your makom (http://1.ancient-paths.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=37&page=1).I understand this interpretation, because at the time there were no cars, but Illicit and forced sexual relations were defined and their punishments were perscirbed in the Bible and the analogy does not work here.

[Timothy Leary]

No Analogy is needed. They fall right under the exact categories. For example, combustion engines literally violate the command not to kindle fires on the Sabbath, if used on the Sabbath. On the other hand, Electric Cars might not.

[shunyadragon]

No Analogy is needed. They fall right under the exact categories. For example, combustion engines literally violate the command not to kindle fires on the Sabbath, if used on the Sabbath. On the other hand, Electric Cars might not.
This is asside from the rape issue of course, but generating any form of energy to move a vehicle that produces heat could be interpreted as kindling fire. In the strict sense an internal combustion engine is not kindling a fire as to cook or provide warmth.

I am interested in how OT law is adapted to the modern world, so this little excursion is okay.

[dml337ira]

Total tolerance leads to lackluster morality, hypocrisy and ultimately, death. When you not only tolerate, but embrace contradicting beliefs, you create a schizophrenic belief system where there is no right or wrong way. This leads to the inhability to make clear and beneficial decisions, thereby leading to things like hypocrisy, immorality, mental illness and ultimately death.
Wow... sorry i got to this debate so late...

Meriam Webster online Dictionary:
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=toleration)

I take it your saying to much of anything can't be good for you.

[shunyadragon]

Wow... sorry i got to this debate so late...

Meriam Webster online Dictionary:
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=toleration)

I take it your saying to much of anything can't be good for you.I do not consider this the best definition. Tolerance is sort of the last measure of sanity in civilization that may prevent violence against someone else who someone feels is different enough to justify remaining seperate from others. Toleration is not the best motive for friendly or peaceful relationships in the long run.

The animal kingdom is innocent of sin and violence against their own kind and nature at any level that would approach human violence against humans and nature. We are the only species that makes war on ourselves and trashes our own home the planet earth.

At one time in human history the first humans, symbolically Adam and Eve, were given the ability to know God, intellect, and also to be capable of evil and sin against nature, their fellow humans and God. This may have happened two million years ago or a million. The exact time is unknown. At this point they became morally accountable to God for their actions.

Humanity began as one family, but some went north, some east, some west and some south. The color of their skins and features changed to adapt to different environments. When they met again they no longer saw their fellow humans as brothers and sisters of the same family. Tolerance resulted in shaky friendships. Intolerance of differences resulted in war and violence, because they were no longer considered kin.

The future of humanity does not depend on the people of different cutures and religions tolerating each, because the difference between tolerance, intolerance and violence can be little more than an angry word. The future of humanity is dependent on the recognition of the absolute unconditional organic and spiritual oneness of humanity.

My view of the Biblical tribes of Isreal is that it symbolically refers to all the people of the earth and the promised land is the earth itself. I know this view of course is not very popular with people who fight over one piece of turf as their own promised land. In reality we are only tenuous stewards of the earth and none of it belongs to us.

[Cephas]

Shuny, read the Tanach and understand the Jewish way of thinking before you criticize them, you sloppy ipse-dixitist.

Last time I checked, the Jews (Orthodox, at least) worshiped YHWH, and not the fleeting gods of man, be it Zeus, Jupiter and your god, Tolerance.

I'm still amazed at how often Baha'iists are intolerant of exclusivists.

Call me intolerant if you wish. I would consider it a compliment.

[Timothy Leary]

What's that (Latin?) phrase mean?

[shunyadragon]

Shuny, read the Tanach and understand the Jewish way of thinking before you criticize them, you sloppy ipse-dixitist.

Last time I checked, the Jews (Orthodox, at least) worshiped YHWH, and not the fleeting gods of man, be it Zeus, Jupiter and your god, Tolerance.

I'm still amazed at how often Baha'iists are intolerant of exclusivists.

Call me intolerant if you wish. I would consider it a compliment.
I have read the Tanach. Last time I checked ALL Jews that believe in a Divine Source, worship the Divine Source by what ever name or no name they wish to use. Do you realize that many Jews will deny worshiping the Divine Source by any name? I never said Jews worshiped any one, assortment of Divinities or anthing else. Could you be more specific?

Who worships Zeus and Jupiter today? My God is not tolerance. Are you able to quote me correctly and show where I refer to tolerance as my God? My belief in the unknowable Divine Source of no one specific name is probably closer to the Jewish belief than yours. There is no trinity or multiplicity of one or more Divinities in the traditional belief of Judaism or the Baha'is

You can be amazed to your hearts content. I have no problem opposing exclusivists and disagreeing with that world view in any belief.

If you chose to be intolerant, so be it.

[Timothy Leary]

Do you realize that many Jews will deny worshiping the Divine Source by any name?

Incorrect. Most of Jewry will not use the tettragrammation. Other names they do not have a problem with.

[shunyadragon]

Incorrect. Most of Jewry will not use the tettragrammation. Other names they do not have a problem with.Interesting, please clarify. I have talked to some Jews that object to western constructions of Biblical words for God and I have seen some use G_d.

What is tettragrammation?

[Timothy Leary]

The four letter name of God. Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh. Orthodox Jews will generally not write out "Elohiym" (or a translation of it, "God") in common usage, as a sign of respect.

[shunyadragon]

The four letter name of God. Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh. Orthodox Jews will generally not write out "Elohiym" (or a translation of it, "God") in common usage, as a sign of respect.
This is similar to what I had heard. I would like more comments on the reluctance of Jews to use the word God or variations of it common in the west. From what I hade heard many were not comfortable with the Christian versions of Jehovah or YHVH (YAWH?)

[Sacrificial Ram]

I will give this more thought, but I definitely do not agree with it. As a Baha'i I am closer to the Hebrew theology than Christian.

The narrowness of the spiritual view of Judism does not reflect humility.

The statement '. . . essence by saying that Jewish spirituality is a quiet but firm rejection of all other spiritualities . . .' reflects the underlying isolation of Judism that in itself leads to violence.

More on this soon, Buddhist and Baha'i both reflect a more humble view of spirituality that does not put them apart from others overtly rejecting other spiritualities because they believe others . . . would seek to destroy humanness by making human beings into gods or, by a dreadful self-profanation, reduce and scatter the human impulses into the fragmentation of mere atoms.
Begging your pardon, but you don't understand the Jewish religion at all. The Jewish religion does not 'have a firm rejection of all other spiritualities,
and quite firmly knows that there are other paths to God other than the one that they chose.

[shunyadragon]

Begging your pardon, but you don't understand the Jewish religion at all. The Jewish religion does not 'have a firm rejection of all other spiritualities,
and quite firmly knows that there are other paths to God other than the one that they chose.

I would like to hear some sources from Judaism on this. You may hear some voices of toleration and acceptance from reform Jews and those like Einstein who do not embrace Judaism take a far more tolerant view, but I have never seen any inclusive statements of alternate spiritualities from traditional or orthodox denominations. Even reform and conservative denominations of Judaism are are often condemned.

In the Torah it is generally accepted that those who believe in other religions or alternate spiritualities were were condemned and in some instances they were exterminated.

[Magdalenbrother]

Ask the Canaanites whom Yahveh ordered the Jews under Joshua to exterminate completely what they think of his infinite tenderness. Or ask Sisera, the "heathen" prince whom Jael treacherously murdered, driving a tent peg through his temple. Although she had broken the sacred laws of hospitality, she was highly praised for her heroic deed in the Song of Deborah. Yes, this is the compassionate and wise Word of the Almighty!

You people live in a dream-world, intoxicated with religious mushrooms. Judaism is as tender as the sun of Palestine at midday near the Dead Sea.