The Art of War ~Sun Tzu

[Ishmael]

I am quite interested in Philosophy and will likely complete my terminal studies in either theology or philosophy. Therefore I will likely hang out in this forum if it actually remains a philosophy forum...

That being said, I have been studying Sun Tzu for about 1 month now using this site HERE (http://www.sonshi.com/).

I should like to here what others have to say about his passage:

Therefore, there are five dangerous traits of a general:
He who is reckless can be killed.
He who is cowardly can be captured.
He who is quick tempered can be insulted.
He who is moral can be shamed.
He who is fond of the people can be worried.
These five traits are faults in a general, and are disastrous in warfare.
The army's destruction, and the death of the general are due to these five dangerous traits.
They must be examined

I'll let anyone start the conversation as I have much to say. If no one sounds off I will write an article tomorrow.

[Ishmael]

"He who is moral can be shamed."

I can't help to comment on this one line. I know too well what this means working with Company Commanders on a daily basis on the one hand. But on the other hand I think that Sun Tzu was speaking of the atrosities that one must engage in ancient... and increasingly so... in modern warfare.

Being a clergyman and believing myself to be moral this concept scares me a little in terms of my profession.

[Ishmael]

Chapter One: Calculations
Sun-tzu said:
Warfare is a great matter to a nation;
it is the ground of death and of life;
it is the way of survival and of destruction, and must be examined.

Therefore, go through it by means of five factors;
compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses:
One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law.

The Way is what causes the people to have the same thinking as their superiors;
they may be given death, or they may be given life, but there is no fear of danger and betrayal.

Heaven is dark and light, cold and hot, and the seasonal constraints.

Ground is high and low, far and near, obstructed and easy, wide and narrow, and dangerous and safe.

General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.

Law is organization, the chain of command, logistics, and the control of expenses.
All these five no general has not heard;


Warfare is the ground of life and death. Later Sun Tzu will speak of the different types of ground that one does battle on, while recognizing that all ground in warfare is the ground of death. BUT it is also the ground of life. How many times do we thank our own dead in the ground of Europe and elsewhere for our freedoms?

I will comment on the five factors tomorrow, unless someone decides to beat me to the chase... and probably even if they do.

[automatthew]

Great topic, Calvinist. I wish I had something meaningful to contribute and hope someone else will take you up. I'm listening.

matthew

[Ryokan]

I am going to dust of the old Art of War tonight Calvinist, so if you'll be patient:D

[Ishmael]

Therefore, go through it by means of five factors;
compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses:
One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law.

The Way is what causes the people to have the same thinking as their superiors;
they may be given death, or they may be given life, but there is no fear of danger and betrayal.

Heaven is dark and light, cold and hot, and the seasonal constraints.

Ground is high and low, far and near, obstructed and easy, wide and narrow, and dangerous and safe.

General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.

Law is organization, the chain of command, logistics, and the control of expenses.
All these five no general has not heard;


This wisdom is not just for warriors, but for people who want to win at any stuggle. Let's face it, life is full of struggles. When you know the battlefield and prepare you mind, you can win because most of the time your oppenent (life) is weak, lazy, and not prepared.

Consider what Sun Tzu say about the Way...

The Way is what causes the people to have the same thinking as their superiors;
they may be given death, or they may be given life, but there is no fear of danger and betrayal.


Indoctination or is this religion? Is this strict attention to millitary order taught through basic training?

It is all of these things and more... our culture, social mores, morality, etc... everything about you.

Consider how the media makes you buy things, believe things, and so on.

Consider how your favorite bible teacher persuades you... Do you really want to stand your ground or does the "general" show you the Way.

Much more to be said, but I will stop here.

[Ishmael]

Heaven is dark and light, cold and hot, and the seasonal constraints.


Truly a soldiers consideration. The key to winning against the weather is to train in all kinds of weather. Never stop because of mild sickness or because of weather which is harsh but not severe. Know the difference and your enemy will not be prepared for you in weather that is not to his liking but acceptable to you.

[Ishmael]

Ground is high and low, far and near, obstructed and easy, wide and narrow, and dangerous and safe.


Consider the terrain...

What kind of businesses a predominant outside around the place you live? Work? Was that an accident?

Consider the placement of the the soda cooler in the ailse of your local Super Market...

Terrain is a consideration is all aspects of your existence.

Consider the way you arrange your furniture in your office...
Home...

You get the point. :)

[Ishmael]

General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.


This is my favorite sentence from this chapter and it shows just how brilliant our ancient warrior was.

"General is wisdom..." The top leader must be the personfication of good choices of manuever... which is wisdom on the battlefield.

This wisdom creates "credibility." When the General give his direction it is credible and it recieves a hearing. Is met with obedience.

"Courage... Disicpline" In the anceint world the general was often on the battlefield with the soldiers, litterally leading them.

"Benevolence" Many people do not realize how important this trait is for a general.
_________________________

Now, Sun Tzu personifies all of these aspects into one of the five factors of warfare. "General" is the factor of Wisdom. The credibility of leadership won over years of service to his men AND lost in one moment of indiscretion. How many leaders fall because of one choice in the midst of thousands of good choices?

"General" is that place of leadership where failure is not acceptable. At this level the time of learning is over and the time for action is at hand. The lives of many people are in his hands.

Irony? Many of you reading my words desire the position of "General" in your chosen fields. Consider what the position will cost you. Consider what the mistakes you have already made would have meant had you already achieved your goal.

But strive on towards it and know that you will have to decide, as John Maxwell is quoted as saying, "A leader must know what he is willing to give up to go up."

[Ishmael]

Law is organization, the chain of command, logistics, and the control of expenses.


I certainly understand the limitations of logistics about right now.
But my problem here is macro...

But..
If one, personally, can keep the supply trains working and always get resupplied before the previous supply runs out, you will be wealthy. The key to your success in this area is "control of expenses."

See my comments on finances here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=291

[JCA]

Not really wanting to interrupt, as I am glad someone else has done some in depth study of Sun Tzu and the Art of War, but I wondered if you knew of this story:

*****

The story is said to have been one of the reasons for Sun Tzu's rise to pwoer and fame, or rather, what sealed it..

Already his knowldege and wisdom as an advisor, especially of the military had proceeded him.. and a very powerful Lord called upon him to see if he was worthy enough to train his troops.

To test Sun Tzu, he gave him women to train.. some of his own concubines thrown in. He told Sun Tzu that if he could train these women quickly and effectively by the next day, he would be assigned to train the lords army.

Sun Tzu only asked that he be allowed to train them in whatever way he saw fit, to whch the Lord agreed.

The next day, the lord called Sun Tzu and the women before him, and asked Sun Tzu to show him what he had taught them.

Sun Tzu commanded the women to stand at attention, and all did but a couple of the women, the lords concubines, obeyed, the rest sloppily. And the Lord looked at Sun Tzu, wondering what had happened.

Sun Tzu apologised to the lord, and said that this is obviously his (Sun's) mistake, as the ability of a soldier to follow a command is based upon the commanders ability to 'deliver' the order effectively.. and as the women did not obey, it must be his fault, so he will try again.

Again, after making sure the women knew what standing to attention meant, Sun Tzu gave the order for the women to stand at attention. The same couple of women did not obey, and the rest where slovenly. And so Sun Tzu ordered the guards to behead the women that did not obey.

Well, the Lord was flabergasted. This man had ordered the beheading of two of his Concubines, and immediately rose to protest.

However, before he got his words out, Sun Tzu turned to the Lord and said, another ability a commander must have, is the ability to train his soldiers as he deems fit, and this is what you gave your word I could do, is this not so? As the first time he gave the order and it was not fulfilled it must have been his fault, the second time he gave the order and it was not fulfilled, it had to be the soldiers fault; and this must not happen on the field of battle.

And so the lord was forced to fall back upon the honor of his word, and allowed Sun Tzu to behead his two concubines while the Lord and everyone watched on.

When done, Sun Tzu turned back the the surviving women and ordered them to stand to attention; to which they all did, perfectly. Sun Tzu turned and bowed to the lord, and then led the women in some basic field exercises for the lord.. to which all performed admirably.

Needless to say, Sun Tzu became the commander of this lords army, and the Lord had to find some more concubines.

*****

The lesson here, is much like Gods.. He gave us the OT, and we did not understand, and so a heavy price was paid. But now the command has been given again, and we are all aware of the price of NOT follwing the Commands.. as this time God has given them to us in a way we CANNOT misunderstand - at least, not without trying..

Two simple commands.. Love thy Lord God, with all thy strength, heart, mind and soul.. and love your neighbor as yourself. If you believe in your Lord, you will follow them.. or pay the price..

Anyway, the story might be a little different from some of them going about.. I'm not sure exactly which is the correct one, but they all basically describe the same thing.

Sorry if I interrupted, but it is rare to see something written about Sun Tzu, and I just wanted to share it..

Great thread, Calvinist.. I can't wait to see where else you go with this.

Love and Peace

JCA

[Ishmael]

Warfare is the Way of deception.

Therefore, if able, appear unable,

if active, appear not active,

if near, appear far,

if far, appear near.

If they have advantage, entice them;

if they are confused, take them,

if they are substantial, prepare for them,

if they are strong, avoid them,

if they are angry, disturb them,

if they are humble, make them haughty,

if they are relaxed, toil them,

if they are united, separate them.


A little bit of Sun Tzu on the way of warfare. Clearly the wise and strong do not always use the frontal, direct approach. Capable enemies cannot be defeated from the front and most guarded positions, but they can be defeated...

If your debate opponent is most strong on the front, for instance, debate a closely related parallel and then go for the front. The weak perimeters will help to collapse the front argument.

If your opponent is self-satisfied about a position that you agree on, give them that and then they will befriend you. They will be easy to defeat after they love you. Entice the strong in their advantage and then go for the flanks... a sure victory.... :thumb:

[Ishmael]

Before moving onto chapter 2, I saw this verse and wanted to mention something very brief. Notice where the warriors go before heading to battle.


Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made;


Do your calculations in the Temple...

[Ghettochild]

OK i read it before, maybe i need to read it again..

What is Jen? I remember a lina about something 1000 jen deep.

[Jacob]

Ishmael,

I've been enjoying your reflections..

I've got to read the book.

Jacob

[Ishmael]

Ishmael,

I've been enjoying your reflections..

I've got to read the book.

Jacob

...I haven't touched this one in a while. Since before I left for Iraq. I might come back to this once I get back to the office. For some reason I am feeling some anxiety about doing reflective writing on this subject... I am sure it's nothing...

I am going to write on Thus Saith Ishmael soon. I have just been organizing my office at home and getting myself situated. I have not had a good time to do any reflective thinking nor have I been in the right state of mind since returning home from Iraq.

I also owe Tweb my next financial article, that is almost finished as well.

TTFN

[Ben Franklin]

Before moving onto chapter 2, I saw this verse and wanted to mention something very brief. Notice where the warriors go before heading to battle.



Do your calculations in the Temple...

Your translation is quite different from what I remember. Let me fetch Samuel Griffith's version and get back to you: it seems more clear and concise. But remember, an ancient Chinese temple was not a temple to a Christian god.

[Ben Franklin]

Consider what Sun Tzu say about the Way...

Indoctination or is this religion? Is this strict attention to millitary order taught through basic training?



You might be reading things into this passage. The "Way" is represented by the Chinese character "Tao", which has numerous meanings, depending on the context. Just like Christian apologetics, you need to study the writings deeply to fully appreciate the meaning of a passage. It could mean road, system, path, etc. It could also mean the "Tao" of Taoism: but this is a treatise on warfare, so it's unlikely "Sun Tzu" used it in a religious sense.

[Ben Franklin]

Consider the terrain...



You must consider the advantages and difficulties of a battle area, and use your army accordingly. Sun at your back, using the high ground, avoid travel through marshes, etc. A general must understand proper use of environment.

[Ben Franklin]

Know the difference and your enemy will not be prepared for you in weather that is not to his liking but acceptable to you.



I think "Sun Tzu" is referring to accepting that you accept that there are proper and improper times when to fight. Remember, in those days, armies went into winter quarters: they didn't fight in snow like modern armies. In spring, the fields must be planted before military operations, and grain must be reaped in the autumn. Armies were levied from peasant families, so these were important considerations, unlike today. These days, agriculture is not affected by modern armies' continuous, year-round operations.

[Ishmael]

You might be reading things into this passage. The "Way" is represented by the Chinese character "Tao", which has numerous meanings, depending on the context. Just like Christian apologetics, you need to study the writings deeply to fully appreciate the meaning of a passage. It could mean road, system, path, etc. It could also mean the "Tao" of Taoism: but this is a treatise on warfare, so it's unlikely "Sun Tzu" used it in a religious sense.

I am sure that I am reading everything into the passage. Nevertheless, I am understanding "Tao" in the way that CS Lewis describes something like it the book The Great Divorce. Also, I do think that the ancients, including Asian ancients understand the world in terms of religion and that this general connected his warfare principles to the mysterious Divine.

[Ishmael]

I think "Sun Tzu" is referring to accepting that you accept that there are proper and improper times when to fight. Remember, in those days, armies went into winter quarters: they didn't fight in snow like modern armies. In spring, the fields must be planted before military operations, and grain must be reaped in the autumn. Armies were levied from peasant families, so these were important considerations, unlike today. These days, agriculture is not affected by modern armies' continuous, year-round operations.

Yes and this is the beauty of superior technology and even wits. One can fight at "improper" times.

[Ben Franklin]

... Nevertheless, I am understanding "Tao" in the way that CS Lewis describes something like it the book The Great Divorce....



In Chapter IV, "Dispositions", verse (?) 15 reads:

"Those skilled in war cultivate the Tao and preserve the laws and are therefore able to formulate victorious policies."

In Tu Mu's commentary on this verse, he writes:

"The Tao is the way of humanity and justice; 'laws' are regulations and institutions. Those who excel in war first cultivate their own humanity and justice and maintain their laws and institutions. By these means they make their governments invincible."

This quote is from Samuel B. Griffith's translation, Oxford University Press, 1963. Mr. Griffith is a retired Marine Corps general, who used this thesis to satisfy his Degree of Doctor of Philosophy requirements at Oxford University.

If you'd like to see the (impressive) list of professors (Chinese and otherwise) whom Griffith consulted to insure accuracy of his work, please check out the acknowledgements page of this translation. Also, a short biography of all cited commentators (including Tu Mu) is provided to you in Appendix IV.

After viewing Mr. Griffith's work, let me know if you still feel he erred on the meaning of either the passage or the character Tao. If yes, then I'd like to read your argument as to why identifying the Tao with Lewis' writings is valid, rather than Griffith's scholarship.



... Also, I do think that the ancients, including Asian ancients understand the world in terms of religion and that this general connected his warfare principles to the mysterious Divine.



As I said in an earlier post, the Chinese ideograph, Tao, can be used to mean quite a number of things, depending on the context. And since "Ping Fa" is a military treatise, supposing a religious context doesn't make sense.

[Ben Franklin]

Yes and this is the beauty of superior technology and even wits. One can fight at "improper" times.

You don't even need to go so far as to quote Sun Tzu.

In one of the Psalms, I believe it is written:

"To everything there is a season..."

This sums up your statement succinctly.

[Ishmael]

In Chapter IV, "Dispositions", verse (?) 15 reads:

"Those skilled in war cultivate the Tao and preserve the laws and are therefore able to formulate victorious policies."

In Tu Mu's commentary on this verse, he writes:

"The Tao is the way of humanity and justice; 'laws' are regulations and institutions. Those who excel in war first cultivate their own humanity and justice and maintain their laws and institutions. By these means they make their governments invincible."

This quote is from Samuel B. Griffith's translation, Oxford University Press, 1963. Mr. Griffith is a retired Marine Corps general, who used this thesis to satisfy his Degree of Doctor of Philosophy requirements at Oxford University.

If you'd like to see the (impressive) list of professors (Chinese and otherwise) whom Griffith consulted to insure accuracy of his work, please check out the acknowledgements page of this translation. Also, a short biography of all cited commentators (including Tu Mu) is provided to you in Appendix IV.

After viewing Mr. Griffith's work, let me know if you still feel he erred on the meaning of either the passage or the character Tao. If yes, then I'd like to read your argument as to why identifying the Tao with Lewis' writings is valid, rather than Griffith's scholarship.



As I said in an earlier post, the Chinese ideograph, Tao, can be used to mean quite a number of things, depending on the context. And since "Ping Fa" is a military treatise, supposing a religious context doesn't make sense.

You are taking this far too more seriously than I wanted to. That is good. At least someone is interested in my thread on Sun Tzu.

At any rate, I do see your point that the word does not have a specific religious connection. Nevertheless, I can see one even if the author did not intend it to be relgious. Also, I know the sort of religious men that all officers of military service are: though deeply religious after a fashion, they are not foolish enough to fight by divine words alone.

[Ben Franklin]

You are taking this far too more seriously than I wanted to. That is good. At least someone is interested in my thread on Sun Tzu.

At any rate, I do see your point that the word does not have a specific religious connection. Nevertheless, I can see one even if the author did not intend it to be relgious. Also, I know the sort of religious men that all officers of military service are: though deeply religious after a fashion, they are not foolish enough to fight by divine words alone.



Well, if you want to get to the root of the Tao concept, why not skip "The Art of War", and read, "Tao Te Ching" by Lao Tzu ? This is THE source for information about the Tao, and would help you find what you're looking for.

[Ishmael]

I love to read so I am sure that I would like it. Nevertheless, the point of studying Sun Tzu is that I am in the Army and an officer that is asked to speak on leadership often.