Question for Arminians

[Gavin]

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Go.

Faith is evidently a "gift" from God which is "not from (ourselves)". Doesn't the divine origin of faith imply that it is up to God who comes to Christ in faith and who does not?

How do Arminians interpret this verse?

[Arminian]

Gavin,

How do Arminians interpret this verse?

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2404&perpage=15&highlight=abstraction&pagenumber=4

[Sheepdog]

Grace is the gift of God in view here, not faith. this is inline with the definition of grace that Paul gives it:

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. Romans 4:4 (note, "favor" here is charis in the Greek-- this is the same term translated to "grace" in Eph. 2:8)

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. Romans 11:6

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. Romans 5:15

All three of these passages clarify that Grace is the gift from God. It is free (not of ourselves) because we don't (and can't) work for it.

[Ric]

04-07-2003 @ 08:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=58463#post58463)
Gavin:

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Go.

Faith is evidently a "gift" from God which is "not from (ourselves)". Doesn't the divine origin of faith imply that it is up to God who comes to Christ in faith and who does not?

How do Arminians interpret this verse?

"Grace" is the objective, operative, and instrumental cause of salvation. Paul expands Ephesians 2:5 by adding that the medium that apprehends salvationis "faith", which is also its necessary condition. Faith, however, is not something a person can produce; it is simply a trustful response that is itself evoked by the Holy Spirit.
Lest faith should be in any way misinterpreted as our contributing in any way to our own salvation, Paul immediately adds a rider to explain that nothing is of our own doing; rather, everything is the "gift of God." The entire process of salvation comes from nothing that we have done.

[Arminian]

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2404&perpage=15&highlight=abstraction&pagenumber=4

[Chappie]

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Go.

Faith is evidently a "gift" from God which is "not from (ourselves)". Doesn't the divine origin of faith imply that it is up to God who comes to Christ in faith and who does not?

How do Arminians interpret this verse?

For it is by grace, the goodness and kindness of God towards men that you have been saved. God gives his goodness and kindness to men through faith. This grace, goodness, did not originate in men, but with God, Then through faith god gives this gift {grace is the contextual gift spoken of here} to men through their faith in Christ.

Grace is the gift spoken of here, not faith. All men have faith, but until it is placed in Christ, it is called dead faith...

Not presented as an expression of the arminiam position. I am a mutt. Neither Calvinist nor Arminian.

[lee_merrill]

Hi Chappie,

Grace is the gift spoken of here, not faith.
Though it is indeed possible (as I have heard) that "salvation by grace through faith" is what is meant as "the gift of God." Now the reason I would think this the better interpretation here (well, I would, of course!) is that whatever the gift is, it is "not of ourselves," which seem to be part of "lest anyone should boast."

So now if faith is of ourselves, why then, it would not be a gift, and then Paul would seem to imply here that we could actually boast.

All men have faith, but until it is placed in Christ, it is called dead faith...
But dead faith, I would say, is not real faith, faith that does not save is only an imitation, it would seem, like human love, or human hope:

Ephesians 2:12 ... at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Blessings,
Lee

[Chappie]

Hi Chappie,
Though it is indeed possible (as I have heard) that "salvation by grace through faith" is what is meant as "the gift of God." Now the reason I would think this the better interpretation here (well, I would, of course!) is that whatever the gift is, it is "not of ourselves," which seem to be part of "lest anyone should boast."

When the day is at end, and the sun goes down; when all is said and done: What does man have that was not given or provided to him by God... Why is our faith a gift from God, and not of ourselves? Man is incapable of provoking himself unto faith. Man is absolutely void of anything that is capable of provoking him unto faith. What is the foundation upon which faith is built? Well, it is the knowledge that God gives that can come from no other source other than himself... Therefore, prior to faith we must have something to believe, (the gospel) that comes from God. The foundation for that is faith is submission unto dependence and trust upon that which we believe. Through knowledge, God provokes men unto faith. The provocation is of God, the faith is of men. All that I ask not is that you use your head, be logical, and be reasonable. Why would God condemn men to and eternity of torment because they lacked something that he did not give them that could come from no other source?

Your children need food to live; their only source for this food is you. Would you not give them this vital ingredient for life, and then sentence them to an eternity in torment because they did not have food. Essentially this is what you say God does.

So now if faith is of ourselves, why then, it would not be a gift, and then Paul would seem to imply here that we could actually boast.

You could boast, but never before God. For if he had not provoked you unto faith, you would have nothing.

But dead faith, I would say, is not real faith, faith that does not save is only an imitation, it would seem, like human love, or human hope:

Dead faith is to real faith as a cow is to milk. Without the cow, (dead faith) no milk. (Real faith) You see this dead faith was not always dead. Through the fall of Adam, our faith that we were created with died along with us. {Part and parcel of a dead spirit, dead spirit, dead faith} All men have this faith; it is through the Gospel that God provokes this dead faith back to life. Therefore, as you can see, this dead faith that you condemn was once alive to God. It was a gift to men at creation. When the sun goes down, what does a man have that he did not get from God... Noooooooooothing!!!!

Now don’t get carried away now and suggest that under this scenario, sin must be a gift from God also. Sin is of God in that it is God that determines what sin is. Nevertheless, God does not provoke men to sin.

Ephesians 2:12 ... at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Through knowledge of God, we are provoked back to fellowship with God. Unfortunately, like reformers, there are many that would rather fight than switch. Just as Christ calls on us to believe even unto death, there are many that will resist unto death...

Blessings,
~Chappie

PS.
Some times I make so much sense, I kaint stand myself... :eek: :teeth:

[RanRan]

For reasons of their own, many interprete 'the gift of faith' to BE whatever it is they believe. Since all men have faith in something - the 'gift' could be any belief they hold.

The Calvinist love to hold this sort of view that God gave them their belief in 'election' - but a man doesn't even have to be a Christian to believe in determinism, predestination, the fates, what have you. Since it was all set in motion before the cross, Christ can be mentioned or not - it doesn't matter.

It is apparent from scripture that the gift of faith is the grace of God offered to all because of Christ's accomplishment. It's free.

[themuzicman]

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Go.

Faith is evidently a "gift" from God which is "not from (ourselves)". Doesn't the divine origin of faith imply that it is up to God who comes to Christ in faith and who does not?

How do Arminians interpret this verse?
"This" is neuter, whereas "grace" and "faith" are feminine, so neither of these are the antecedent of "this" such that neither can be the gift.

The neuter, if there is no immediate antecedent, can refer to the idea of the passage, but the idea is found in the periphrastic "You are being saved", such that salvation is the gift, not faith.

Michael

[Chappie]

"This" is neuter, whereas "grace" and "faith" are feminine, so neither of these are the antecedent of "this" such that neither can be the gift.

The neuter, if there is no immediate antecedent, can refer to the idea of the passage, but the idea is found in the periphrastic "You are being saved", such that salvation is the gift, not faith.

Michael

If only Paul had written that into the text, life would be so much simpler. I never know when my neuter is preceeding my periphrasitic, or if in fact, antecedent comes first or last...

All that ignorance on my part, still I find what you suggest to be compatable with scripture... And dat's my periphrastic... :teeth:

A silly way to say, looks ok to me... :eek:

[themuzicman]

If only Paul had written that into the text, life would be so much simpler. I never know when my neuter is preceeding my periphrasitic, or if in fact, antecedent comes first or last...

All that ignorance on my part, still I find what you suggest to be compatable with scripture... And dat's my periphrastic... :teeth:

A silly way to say, looks ok to me... :eek:
He Did write that into the text. But you need to read what Paul wrote to see it.

[bloodrose]

"This" is neuter, whereas "grace" and "faith" are feminine, so neither of these are the antecedent of "this" such that neither can be the gift.

The neuter, if there is no immediate antecedent, can refer to the idea of the passage, but the idea is found in the periphrastic "You are being saved", such that salvation is the gift, not faith.

Michael

I agree. Salvation is the gift reffered to here. As a Calvinist, I don't really like the fact, seeing as though it's a common Calvinist pretext, but scripture is better than me. Anyway, I still know that we should "let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith".

So I guess, in my non-confrontational understanding, one would have to agree that faith is as much a gift from God as our existence, seeing as we have it, but it only belongs to us in the same sense as our lives, it is not our will that caused our faith to come into existense, or only the wise would be get saved.

Jeff.

[Chappie]

He Did write that into the text. But you need to read what Paul wrote to see it.

What if I have been a Minister for almost 20 years, and read Paul along with all the others that wrote the bible more times than I can reacall. What do I do then. Do you think that the next reading will cause me to see something different than I have seen all these readings/years..

[WaterOfOblivion]

I guess, in my non-confrontational understanding, one would have to agree that faith is as much a gift from God as our existence, seeing as we have it, but it only belongs to us in the same sense as our lives, it is not our will that caused our faith to come into existense, or only the wise would be get saved.

Or give the edge to the wise in preserving it, contrary to scriptures that say such doctrines are foolish, to the "wise".

[Chappie]

I agree. Salvation is the gift reffered to here. As a Calvinist, I don't really like the fact, seeing as though it's a common Calvinist pretext, but scripture is better than me. Anyway, I still know that we should "let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith".

So I guess, in my non-confrontational understanding, one would have to agree that faith is as much a gift from God as our existence, seeing as we have it, but it only belongs to us in the same sense as our lives, it is not our will that caused our faith to come into existense, or only the wise would be get saved.

Jeff.

I like the text and tone of your post. In addition, if what I have read into it does not disagree with what is written, I like it even more...

What you appear to have done is treat this Gift of faith more consistently with the reality of it than most do. Most inferences that I draw from other comments on the matter is that faith being a gift is wrapped up like a box of Sees Candy and presented to the person, rather than the gift being of God, but brought to fruition by a synergistic effort by God and man.

The gift is of God, but if we put it under the bed with all the other redundant gifts that we are given, this gift that gives life, spoils in time and becomes a curse unto death being that we have then rejected it...

Therefore, in that sense, this same faith that represents the gift of life, becomes a curse unto death. It truly ain't what you got, but how you use it that counts also....

Now, did you say that; or did I say that? :shrug:

[bloodrose]

Therefore, in that sense, this same faith that represents the gift of life, becomes a curse unto death. It truly ain't what you got, but how you use it that counts also....

My thoughts on the doctrine of synergism aside, I agree with your post. In much the same way is the fact that Christ (whom the faith is in and from) is "the gift of life", he is also "A rock of offense" to the legalistc and "foolishness" to the philosophers. Lovely symbiosis between Christ and faith, isn't there?

[Chappie]

My thoughts on the doctrine of synergism aside, I agree with your post. In much the same way is the fact that Christ (whom the faith is in and from) is "the gift of life", he is also "A rock of offense" to the legalistc and "foolishness" to the philosophers. Lovely symbiosis between Christ and faith, isn't there?

You betcha.... :b_mickey:

[themuzicman]

What if I have been a Minister for almost 20 years, and read Paul along with all the others that wrote the bible more times than I can reacall. What do I do then. Do you think that the next reading will cause me to see something different than I have seen all these readings/years..

Either you're only reading what someone translated from what Paul wrote, or, if you're reading the Greek, you're seeing what matches your theology, and never had to question the grammar, since there was no reason to.

We all do it. That's what critics are for.

Michael

[themuzicman]

I agree. Salvation is the gift reffered to here. As a Calvinist, I don't really like the fact, seeing as though it's a common Calvinist pretext, but scripture is better than me. Anyway, I still know that we should "let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith".

So I guess, in my non-confrontational understanding, one would have to agree that faith is as much a gift from God as our existence, seeing as we have it, but it only belongs to us in the same sense as our lives, it is not our will that caused our faith to come into existense, or only the wise would be get saved.

Jeff.

"Faith" in this context is referring to our belief structure, like when we ask someone when they joined "the faith." In that sense, Christ, in initiating the new covenant, is both author (through the cross) and finisher (through our resurrection) of Christian belief.

Michael

[Sheepdog]

"Faith" in this context is referring to our belief structure, like when we ask someone when they joined "the faith." In that sense, Christ, in initiating the new covenant, is both author (through the cross) and finisher (through our resurrection) of Christian belief.

Michael

yeah, it's not like you should read the text in Context (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=heb&chapter=12&verse=2&submit=Lookup+Verse), or read the whole verse or something silly like that.

the text itself explains precisely in what sense Jesus is the "author and perfecter" of our faith.

[spitndirt]

It is written: '...[faith] comes by 'hearing' and hearing by 'the Word of God'...' Therefore 'doing the Word' is proof that the Word is 'heard' - since the Word consists of 'commands' and 'promises'.

It is by the 'grace of God' that he speaks to us at all. And those who say they 'believe' the Word that came by grace but do not 'do it'.....can they really say that they 'believe'? Jesus said '...Come to Me...' and can one say 'I believe' and yet not '...go to Him...'?

Why do calvinists find this process so difficult to grasp? Christ, and Him crucified has won for the world the opportunity to 'enter the Kingdom of God'. Can one 'enter' without 'doing the Word'? I mean, God has foreordained that we should 'enter'. Who should enter? All 'should' enter....and 'whosoever' [will], the same shall be saved. But whosoever [will not] stand condemned already, for they 'obey not' the truth.

Now, can the same God who '...causes the believer to stand...' not also '...harden the disobedient...'? Yes! In fact He has vowed to '...turn them into hades...'. The Lord hardens whom He wills - the unbeliever, and draws whom He wills - the believer. But God is NOT willing that ANY should perish but for ALL to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nonetheless He will destroy them that [will not] obey the Gospel. Now ALL possess the ability to 'believe' and therefore be saved, but 'unbelief' can NEVER lead to life since it is by faith that one enters the Kingdom of God. And one who 'turns' does so because he 'believes' and by his faith God will cause him to stand - but while he was in 'unbelief' God was bringing him to NOTHING. And if one is brought to nothing and is HUMBLED by it....can the God who brought him to ruin not also RESTORE him? YES! God is He who '...gives GRACE to the humble...'. But if in his humility he persists in disobedience he will perish in the end. Likewise, if one who once obeyed and was 'grafted in' if he should turn away in disobedoence will he NOT be 'cut off' again? Yes! Have not the prophets warned us '...the souls that sins, it shall die...' (Ezekiel).

All these things are CONSISTENT when viewed correctly through [the new creation] - Christ IN us, the hope of glory. Or do you suppose the 'Spirit' is of no [real-time] affect? God remains SOVEREIGN even though He allows us [a will] so that we can either obey or disobey the Gospel. Or do you suppose that the Gospel is a thing that is NOT to be obeyed? He 'expresses' His will to ALL by the Word that He has spoken by His Son....believers [will] do that which God is [willing], while unbelievers [will not] do the same - and so are brought to ruin against their will AND without their consent. Likewise, God has prepared ahead of time all that 'believers' obtain through the 'excersizing' of their faith, again, without their input or their consent. This is because HE is working IN THEM both to 'will' and to 'do' of His good pleasure. So is God 'pleased' at the disobedience that proceeds from unbelief? NO! And in His displeasure He sets His face against them. WHY? Because He is NOT willing that they persist and PERISH!!! Get it....?

peace

[RanRan]

Or do you suppose that the Gospel is a thing that is NOT to be obeyed? Actually, the Gospel is a thing to be believed - and that only - that's the entire obligation of obedience. Believe it. That, and that only, consists of your 'repentance' - your change of mind. Even at that point you have nothing to boast about because it's a thing that is true whether you believe it or not. You, by believing, didn't make it happen. So the only option open to men is not whether you will stop sinning (you won't reach that perfection), but, as always, which gospel will you believe. You can say in all the ways and reasons that men have invented that Christ did not take away the sins of the world, but you cannot claim obedience or repentance when you do. Ever.

It is impossible to obey God until you love Him. Other gospels do not produce this love and inevitable obedience stemming from such love. Men reject the Good News because they hate His mercy to other sinners. Forgive as you are forgiven, then, and then only, will you be in line with God, i.e. REALITY.

[spitndirt]

Actually, the Gospel is a thing to be believed - and that only - that's the entire obligation of obedience. Believe it. That, and that only, consists of your 'repentance' - your change of mind. Even at that point you have nothing to boast about because it's a thing that is true whether you believe it or not. You, by believing, didn't make it happen. So the only option open to men is not whether you will stop sinning (you won't reach that perfection), but, as always, which gospel will you believe. You can say in all the ways and reasons that men have invented that Christ did not take away the sins of the world, but you cannot claim obedience or repentance when you do. Ever.

It is impossible to obey God until you love Him. Other gospels do not produce this love and inevitable obedience stemming from such love. Men reject the Good News because they hate His mercy to other sinners. Forgive as you are forgiven, then, and then only, will you be in line with God, i.e. REALITY.
RanRan,

Jesus said, '...all that the Father gives Me [will come to Me]...' - this IS 'belief'! He who BELIEVES [will] COME. The 'two' become 'one'. No escaping this!

I [know] because when I '...called on the name of the Lord...' He [answered] me. He anwered me because it was HIS EXPRESSED WILL that I call [in faith] believing that Christ died, was laid in the tomb, and that God raised Him up on the third day. This He did speak by His Son - '...Come, ask, seek, knock...' He who obeys obtains the attached promises '...rest, receive, find, opened...'. Calling IS believing. This is what believers 'do'. ALL who are in Christ are there through His commands. Any other way is to enter NOT through the narrow gate - as if to know the 'entrance' apart from His command. It is by COMMAND that our faith is produced and sustained. As it is also written '...He upholds ALL THINGS by the Word of His command...'

Hearing the message is NOT enough unless in ends in 'doing the Word'. God is HE who 'wills' and 'does' in us - just as the scriptures say, Therefore, since this is true there is NO BOASTING in ourselves, only glorifying Him.

One cannot 'love God' unless he [knows] Him, and how can he [know] the One to whom he has NOT gone. Obedience comes BEFORE [knowledge] and knowledge BEFORE love.

peace

[RanRan]

Jesus said, '...all that the Father gives Me [will come to Me]...' - this IS 'belief'! He who BELIEVES [will] COME. Believes WHAT???

By making what you say is belief, namely, whatever you believe the Gospel is, is proof that God has given you to Christ because His name is attached to what you believe, is no proof at all.

Do you think for one minute that the men preaching other gospels, which Paul called cursed, weren't thinking the exact same thing?

Think, man! Your assurance is a phantom! Your assurance comes from the Gospel.

Do you believe that Christ took away the sins of the world, and by that, porpitiated His Father??

Yes or No? The idea that election is the Gospel is a concept of pure fools and the most illogical of men.

[spitndirt]

Believes WHAT???

By making what you say is belief, namely, whatever you believe the Gospel is, is proof that God has given you to Christ because His name is attached to what you believe, is no proof at all.

Do you think for one minute that the men preaching other gospels, which Paul called cursed, weren't thinking the exact same thing?

Think, man! Your assurance is a phantom! Your assurance comes from the Gospel.

Do you believe that Christ took away the sins of the world, and by that, porpitiated His Father??

Yes or No? The idea that election is the Gospel is a concept of pure fools and the most illogical of men.
Obey believing the Gospel - what else? I did include these words in my last post: '...Christ died, was laid in a tomb, and God raised Him up on the third day...' (the Gospel in a nutshell). But believing the Gospel does NOT exclude obedience. Those who believe this Gospel 'do' what Jesus commands. This is the faith - doing the Word! Jesus 'commands' us to ...call, ask, seek, knock...' and whatever else He commands. Do you imagine that those who do NOT ask will recieve; or will not seek, yet will find? NO! The cross is of NO BENIFIT to those who disobey the Word of truth. It is for this reason that Christ died: that being reconciled to God 'believers' would obtain the PROMISES of God through the obedience of FAITH. Is this NOT clear?

peace

The spoken Word IS the election of God for believers. '...the elder shall serve the younger...' was the Word of [election] where Jacob was concerned. WHAT He speaks produces 'faith'. That is, if He said '...Come to Me...' then 'going to Him' is our [act] of faith - enter 'justification'.

[RanRan]

Obey believing the Gospel - what else? I did include these words in my last post: '...Christ died, was laid in a tomb, and God raised Him up on the third day...' (the Gospel in a nutshell). What did that accomplish? Every man dies. Every other gospel expresses that Christ was special. Even the Moslems do that. So what?

Think man! The Gospel is about what the Cross MEANS for men. Is God reconciled to mankind? Are you an Ambassador of Reconcilication or an ambassador of tulips - they are not the same thing, you know. One of those 'ambassadors' is cursed. Which one are you, when you cannot confess that Christ took away the sins of the world?

[spitndirt]

What did that accomplish? Every man dies. Every other gospel expresses that Christ was special. Even the Moslems do that. So what?

Think man! The Gospel is about what the Cross MEANS for men. Is God reconciled to mankind? Are you an Ambassador of Reconcilication or an ambassador of tulips - they are not the same thing, you know. One of those 'ambassadors' is cursed. Which one are you, when you cannot confess that Christ took away the sins of the world?
Christ DID take away the sins of the world....it's just that the world refuses to 'believe' and so be saved. You're NOT one of those universalists....are you?

'...All you believers are SAVED.......but you unbelievers......well, you are condemned - to be SAVED anyway.....HA! - PSYCHE........God got you good.....HEHEHE....

The sign of unbelief is disobedience. These will perish for 'unbelief' and their [sins] will remain ...... because the cross will have been of NO BENIFIT to them. Had they followed Christ they would have ended up where He is - to be with HIM. THAT is what the Gospel means ultimately to us who believe!!!

I'm not preaching the Gospel to the lost here....but discussing the topic at hand - arminianism vs calvinism I presume. If it's 'pure milk' that you expect then you're not in the right place.

peace

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Chappie: When the day is at end, and the sun goes down; when all is said and done: What does man have that was not given or provided to him by God...
Yes, I agree, and then faith would be a gift, and not of ourselves?

Why would God condemn men to and eternity of torment because they lacked something that he did not give them that could come from no other source?
You may know that I am willing to hope that all will repent and believe, and be saved...

Lee: So now if faith is of ourselves, why then, it would not be a gift, and then Paul would seem to imply here that we could actually boast.

Chappie: You could boast, but never before God.
But Paul doesn't say "before God," he just say "no boasting," so if we had some involvement in salvation that really came from ourselves, some part that was not a gift, then as you say, we could boast.

Chappie: Dead faith is to real faith as a cow is to milk.
As a dead cow is to milk, I would say! Doesn't James also say this? "As the body without the spirit is dead..."

Now don’t get carried away now and suggest that under this scenario, sin must be a gift from God also.
No, I wouldn't suggest that! I am also a rather tall person, and difficult, for that reason, to carry away...

Unfortunately, like reformers, there are many that would rather fight than switch.
Well, it depends on whether the view a given person holds is correct! But I agree that holding on for the sake of holding on is not a good idea.

"The most useful knowledge is to know that we have been deceived, and the most delightful discovery is to find out that we have been mistaken. 'Capable of forsaking an error'--this is fine praise, and a fine quality." (Joseph Joubert)

And from the same pen:

"Those who never retract love themselves better than the truth."

Michael: The neuter, if there is no immediate antecedent, can refer to the idea of the passage, but the idea is found in the periphrastic "You are being saved", such that salvation is the gift, not faith.
Well, it might be! It seems (to me) more likely that a past event, their conversion, is what is in view here, "You have been saved" is how the ESV/NASB/UNASB/NIV/NLT all render it, and then if salvation is a gift, its component parts are also gifts! You can't give someone a car, and not give them the transmission and the windows...

"let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith".

Michael: Christ, in initiating the new covenant, is both author (through the cross) and finisher (through our resurrection) of Christian belief.
Why then, the finisher? Isn't the Christian faith a distinct and recognizable object now? Was it not, then? So no, this must mean our individual trust in Christ, and then he is the Author of this, and will finish it, too. Good assurance, when people are struggling and under pressure! Speaking of context, the surrounding verses also would indicate each person's faith here...

Blessings,
Lee

[Chappie]

Hi everyone,
Yes, I agree, and then faith would be a gift, and not of ourselves?
The method of giving is important to understand here. The provocation unto faith results in the gift of faith. Like I previously said, the method was not, hey you, get over here and take this..

You may know that I am willing to hope that all will repent and believe, and be saved...
If you believe that God is standing in the way of what your are hoping for, (predestination) your hope is tantamont to vanity. You simply feel morally justified in doing so.

But Paul doesn't say "before God," he just say "no boasting," so if we had some involvement in salvation that really came from ourselves, some part that was not a gift, then as you say, we could boast.
Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

[Kenite]

Ephesians 28For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Go. Faith is evidently a "gift" from God which is "not from (ourselves)". Doesn't the divine origin of faith imply that it is up to God who comes to Christ in faith and who does not?Faith is made possible by the cross. Faith is commanded. Lack of faith is eternally culpable. God does not blame for what is impossible.

[WaterOfOblivion]

God does not blame for what is impossible.

I thought Romans said precisely the opposite.

[RanRan]

The sign of unbelief is disobedience. These will perish for 'unbelief' and their [sins] will remain ...... because the cross will have been of NO BENIFIT to them. No, the Cross is of great benefit to the unbeliever - look at the Last Judgment. The unbelievers are the sheep who helped believers - Christ's little ones.

[Chappie]

Lee:
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a]

Romans 4 (New King James Version)
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

[Kenite]

I thought Romans said precisely the opposite.Is it asking too much to ask for a reference? :smile:

[WaterOfOblivion]

Is it asking too much to ask for a reference?

It is not.

Romans 9:11-23: For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

[RanRan]

I'm not preaching the Gospel to the lost here....but discussing the topic at hand - arminianism vs calvinism I presume. If it's 'pure milk' that you expect then you're not in the right place.Milk? You hold to an ANGRY god. That's another gospel. You haven't gotten to the 'milk' stage or forgot it when you became 'wise.' If the Arminian and the Calvinist both have a god who is angry at mankind - then neither have the Gospel.

There is no 'sin of unbelief' in not believing another gospel. Christ took away the sins of the world, and by that, took away His Father's anger - that's the Gospel. Then you come and put it back on - "God is angry for not believing He's not angry." (you did admit that he's propitiated, didn't you?)

And you call that sound thinking! If that's maturity in Christian thinking, I'll take the 'milk.'

[WaterOfOblivion]

So Job, what was up with that RanRan?

[Kenite]

It is not.Romans 9:11-23 does not show that God commands what is impossible.

[WaterOfOblivion]

Romans 9:11-23 does not show that God commands what is impossible.

Insofar as those created as "Vessels of Wrath" are asked to believe what you and I do Kenite, yes, he does command the impossible of them. For they are deaf and cannot hear, and blind and cannot see. The word does support the notion that God hardens hearts to his message, blinds eyes, and make ears stone deaf to it. The concept is repeated three times almost verbatim, starting with Isaiah.

Isaiah 6:10: Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Christ as well.

Matthew 13:15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

And again in Acts Paul quotes Isaiah as well.

Acts 28:26-27: Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

If God hardens hearts, closes ears, blinds eyes, it is in fact quite impossible.

[spitndirt]

Milk? You hold to an ANGRY god. That's another gospel. You haven't gotten to the 'milk' stage or forgot it when you became 'wise.' If the Arminian and the Calvinist both have a god who is angry at mankind - then neither have the Gospel.

There is no 'sin of unbelief' in not believing another gospel. Christ took away the sins of the world, and by that, took away His Father's anger - that's the Gospel. Then you come and put it back on - "God is angry for not believing He's not angry." (you did admit that he's propitiated, didn't you?)

And you call that sound thinking! If that's maturity in Christian thinking, I'll take the 'milk.'
It is written '...God is angry at the wicked all day long...'. RanRan says '...no such thing as an angry God...' Should I trust RanRan or the scriptures?

Jesus said to the Pharasees '...if you were blind you would not be GUILTY of sin; but since you say 'we see' your sin remains...' Why? Because of unbelief.

Jesus said '...he that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth NOT is condemned already because he has NOT believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And THIS is the condemnation, that light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their [deeds] were evil. for every one that [doeth evil] hateth the light; neither [cometh to the light], lest his [deeds] should be reproved. But he that [doeth truth] COMETH TO THE LIGHT that his [deeds] may be [made manifest], that they are [wrought in God].

Me wise....? Maybe - but NOT in my own eyes. I am simply speaking what another spoke. If you are in disagreement it is NOT with me, but with the One who spoke the things that I have spoken. In this I remain [hidden in Him], not speaking on my own but in His name.

Seems to me that YOU are the one who still thinks he sees since you are casting the Word of God behind your back. If I were you I would STOP trying to be NICER than Jesus. The thing about Jesus....? He [knows] of what He speaks. You should try LISTENING for a change.

My posts on this subject are consistant with the word of God. If they are NOT, then use THE WORD to correct me. If I am found to be in error I will quickly and humbly give way to God's Word.

Yes...the Gospel IS good news. To them that 'believe' I mean. The same Gospel is 'death' to them that 'believe not'. The 'living plant' is caused to grow and prosper while the 'dead plant' is caused to wither and decay....both by the same sun.

[seer]

No, the Cross is of great benefit to the unbeliever - look at the Last Judgment. The unbelievers are the sheep who helped believers - Christ's little ones.

I think you are exactly right Ran. The sheep here are not christians, but the fact that they are helping christians tells me that they were on their way to belief. I think these are the same ones spoken of in Matt.10:40-42.

[Kenite]

Insofar as those created as "Vessels of Wrath" are asked to believe what you and I do Kenite, yes, he does command the impossible of them. For they are deaf and cannot hear, and blind and cannot see. The word does support the notion that God hardens hearts to his message, blinds eyes, and make ears stone deaf to it. Of course; but hardening does not take place without a decision- a human decision. Everyone who understands the truth of the gospel takes a decision, an instantaneous decision, to accept or reject it. The choice is eternal death, or eternal life, and most people who hear the gospel die on hearing it. We are gods, and we decide our destinies in that moment.

Whatever our decision, from then on God works in one direction or another, to increase faith; or, to harden, so that a person puts up a barrier to the demands of the gospel. Even that hardening, though caused by God, is actually carried out by the human concerned. It is a natural psychological process, yet one undoubtedly caused by God in Christ. One or the other process has probably happened to everyone who reads this, and may be experienced as an 'exponential curve'. So yes, the leopard cannot change his spots, but it was the 'leopard' who chose to wear the spots in the first place.

[Chappie]

Isaiah 6:10: Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Matthew 13:15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The Calvinist loves their heartless, wrathful, un-compassionate God. You speak to them of a just, loving and compassionate God, they go into a tizzy. They will sooner, rather than later, bring up how God created vessels of destruction, hardened hearts, issued commands and then prevented men from being able to carry them out so that he could illuminate his wrath.

Take the Isaiah passage above, they get all worshipful knowing that God is about to harden some hearts, blind some folks, and burn their eyes out. They really need this stuff in order to feel that God has some special feelings for them that he does not have for every one else… They hide this untoward pride behind the perfectly righteous, just and holy sovereignty of God.

They use these passages without the mitigating effect of the whole of scripture. The picture they paint is of God wreaking havoc on a majority of his creation according to his good pleasure. They ask you to believe that God is rampantly running Willie Nillie throughout creation just kicking butt just because he can… They use these passages in conjunction with the Jacob and Esau passages to show that God is impervious to good and evil when he decides to kick butt. Before they were born, or had ever did any good of evil, God blessed one and kicked the others butt.

Is this an accurate presentation of the above passages? Absolutely not. The command in Isaiah was issued after years and years of rebellion and disobedience of his people. Moreover, If God can turn on his chosen people without cause, just because he can, being his elect today places one in a precarious position.

The Matthew passage: The context of the passage is that they have brought this condition upon themselves. “For this people's heart is waxed gross”. Through disobedience and rebellion, this consequence has come upon the people. Naaaaaaaa. Did not; God didit.

The really sad part in this matter is that Calvinist sees these things as God’s proactive will. Working in secret behind the scene to bring it about. They will have nothing of the fact that God is responding to prolonged periods of evil, disobedience, and t rejection of him and who he is…

Will God harden hearts, blind eyes, and make ears dull of hearing? YES. However, never arbitrary or without cause.

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

“With all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved”. Is this a condition imposed upon them without cause of justification? NO!!! Nooooooooooooooo, no. They rejected, refused to receive the truth, and because of prolonged rejection of the truth, God sends them a strong delusion, causing them to believe a lie. Please do not feed me any of that stuff about God rejecting them before they had did any right or wrong. To take the preceding passages out of this context to present to the Christian community a God that is so enamored with evil for the sake of pleasure is an untoward and immensely evil thing to do…

It is written '...God is angry at the wicked all day long...'. RanRan says '...no such thing as an angry God...' Should I trust RanRan or the scriptures?

[spitndirt]

No, the Cross is of great benefit to the unbeliever - look at the Last Judgment. The unbelievers are the sheep who helped believers - Christ's little ones.
NOT AS LONG AS HE REMIANS IN HIS UNBELIEF! I am NOT saying that it is impossible for an unbeliever to be TURNED by GOD. And this TURNING is, then, an ACT OF BELIEF.

God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. So...what happens at the END of this opposition? HUMILITY....hopefully. Then....and ONLY then is the unbeliever fit to recieve GRACE. And God can WORK with a humble person.

According to you there is NO PURPOSE for God's anger, wrath, and OPPOSITION. These things He MUST be involved in else the 'unbeliever' has absolutely NO CHANCE at LIFE.

Let the wrath of God break forth then....but may He ALSO remember MERCY.

Of course this is all predicated on the fact that 'repentance' is [action]. It is an ACT of FAITH that the Lord is trying to SCARE OUT. Consider Revelation. Is it not written that in the time of God's WRATH '...and they STILL would NOT REPENT...' - showing what His primary INTENTION was. And yet DESTRUCTION remains at the end of it all.

[spitndirt]

Isaiah 6:10: Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Matthew 13:15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The Calvinist loves their heartless, wrathful, un-compassionate God. You speak to them of a just, loving and compassionate God, they go into a tizzy. They will sooner, rather than later, bring up how God created vessels of destruction, hardened hearts, issued commands and then prevented men from being able to carry them out so that he could illuminate his wrath.

Take the Isaiah passage above, they get all worshipful knowing that God is about to harden some hearts, blind some folks, and burn their eyes out. They really need this stuff in order to feel that God has some special feelings for them that he does not have for every one else… They hide this untoward pride behind the perfectly righteous, just and holy sovereignty of God.

They use these passages without the mitigating effect of the whole of scripture. The picture they paint is of God wreaking havoc on a majority of his creation according to his good pleasure. They ask you to believe that God is rampantly running Willie Nillie throughout creation just kicking butt just because he can… They use these passages in conjunction with the Jacob and Esau passages to show that God is impervious to good and evil when he decides to kick butt. Before they were born, or had ever did any good of evil, God blessed one and kicked the others butt.

Is this an accurate presentation of the above passages? Absolutely not. The command in Isaiah was issued after years and years of rebellion and disobedience of his people. Moreover, If God can turn on his chosen people without cause, just because he can, being his elect today places one in a precarious position.

The Matthew passage: The context of the passage is that they have brought this condition upon themselves. “For this people's heart is waxed gross”. Through disobedience and rebellion, this consequence has come upon the people. Naaaaaaaa. Did not; God didit.

The really sad part in this matter is that Calvinist sees these things as God’s proactive will. Working in secret behind the scene to bring it about. They will have nothing of the fact that God is responding to prolonged periods of evil, disobedience, and t rejection of him and who he is…

Will God harden hearts, blind eyes, and make ears dull of hearing? YES. However, never arbitrary or without cause.

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

“With all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved”. Is this a condition imposed upon them without cause of justification? NO!!! Nooooooooooooooo, no. They rejected, refused to receive the truth, and because of prolonged rejection of the truth, God sends them a strong delusion, causing them to believe a lie. Please do not feed me any of that stuff about God rejecting them before they had did any right or wrong. To take the preceding passages out of this context to present to the Christian community a God that is so enamored with evil for the sake of pleasure is an untoward and immensely evil thing to do…

It is written '...God is angry at the wicked all day long...'. RanRan says '...no such thing as an angry God...' Should I trust RanRan or the scriptures?
Hey.....another who CAN'T seem to consider WHOLE POSTS. YOU are just not interested in understanding the WHOLE of what one is saying! Seems to me that YOUR purpose is to LABEL people so that you can comdemn them. How JUST is that???

In fact, I am NEITHER a CALVINIST or an ARMINIAN - in a STRICT sense. But then if you had actually READ what I WROTE throughout this thread you would have understood THAT!

.....surely WISDOM will die with you.....since you imagine that the Word of God has come to YOU only!!! You all really should read your own posts....seems you havn't much problem implying WRATH upon those who even bring it up....

[Chappie]

Hey.....another who CAN'T seem to consider WHOLE POSTS. YOU are just not interested in understanding the WHOLE of what one is saying! Seems to me that YOUR purpose is to LABEL people so that you can comdemn them. How JUST is that???

In fact, I am NEITHER a CALVINIST or an ARMINIAN - in a STRICT sense. But then if you had actually READ what I WROTE throughout this thread you would have understood THAT!

.....surely WISDOM will die with you.....since you imagine that the Word of God has come to YOU only!!! You all really should read your own posts....seems you havn't much problem implying WRATH upon those who even bring it up....

I made a boo bo. I read two or three posts and then used yours as a catalist for my response. It was an unwise decision. You have my apologies...

[RanRan]

My posts on this subject are consistant with the word of God. If they are NOT, then use THE WORD to correct me. If I am found to be in error I will quickly and humbly give way to God's Word.Christ has asked us to accept that John the Baptist was the promised Elijah to come at the end - the day of wrath. Do you?

Then Christ promises that Day would come on that generation. It did come on that generation. The events of 70AD fulfilled every point of the promised tribulation in Matt 24.

That wrath was to be completely poured out - there is no indication that a reserve was held back to be used again.

Christ came to fulfill scripture. In that respect, He did. He also came to take away the sins of the world (but not the sins those who were already condemned to fulfill the above). So when the Gospel says the Cross propitiated His Father - it true for all others and for all time. This, too, fulfills scripture - that a Savior would come to the world.

Christ wants you to believe the Gospel. If you start with the Gospel and hold to it, everything becomes much clearer. And you won't be found irrationally claiming that God is angry at people for not believing the Gospel, namely, that He's not angry with them!

Christ propitiated His Father. Unbelievers undo that work and think they are being wise. But people who spread other gospels are doomed, according to Paul.

[spitndirt]

Christ has asked us to accept that John the Baptist was the promised Elijah to come at the end - the day of wrath. Do you?

Then Christ promises that Day would come on that generation. It did come on that generation. The events of 70AD fulfilled every point of the promised tribulation in Matt 24.

That wrath was to be completely poured out - there is no indication that a reserve was held back to be used again.

Christ came to fulfill scripture. In that respect, He did. He also came to take away the sins of the world (but not the sins those who were already condemned to fulfill the above). So when the Gospel says the Cross propitiated His Father - it true for all others and for all time. This, too, fulfills scripture - that a Savior would come to the world.

Christ wants you to believe the Gospel. If you start with the Gospel and hold to it, everything becomes much clearer. And you won't be found irrationally claiming that God is angry at people for not believing the Gospel, namely, that He's not angry with them!

Christ propitiated His Father. Unbelievers undo that work and think they are being wise. But people who spread other gospels are doomed, according to Paul.
RanRan,

The day of wrath has come....has it not? If we take this to mean that God's wrath ended with the desruction of Isreal then how will you explain the HELL that has plagued the earth since then? Further, there is is whole lot of wrath and destruction that preceeds the second coming, and at the end. Now, having said that I realize that MAN if left unrestrained can muster up plenty of wrath in his own right, but there is still a place for God's. Ever consider Romans ch 13 - the whole '...agents of wrath to excersize vengeance upon the evil doer...' thing? God's wrath and judgment are still against the wicked even to this very day. Why? because He is angry with them. Now, I make a distinction between your garden variety 'unbeliever' and them that refuse to control their carnal selves - you know, CHILD MOLESTING MURDERERS and the like....? But I suppose you are in the '...I believe in rehabilitation...' camp, just wanting so bad for the wicked to see how much YOU and YOUR GOD love them. If only they would behold YOUR glory then perhaps they will fall down and kiss your big toe or something.

There is spoken of in scripture concerning a time when 'authority' would be weakened and lawlessness would be the result. It is men like yourself who peddle a 'grandpa god' Gospel and in YOUR 'wrath and opposition' to the Living God you set out to impose your 'not-so-good news' on the world. '...O NO....God has no ill feelings towards the wicked who by their wicked acts become a terror to the innocent...'. After all, God is He that '...justifies the wicked who do not work...' isn't He? He died to save 'ungodly men'....right. In your twisted view of things God has become 'protector of the wicked and vile' and thus, by default, tormentor and slayer of the righteous and innocent. Last I read my bible your god fits the description of the god of this world. You should learn this truth: If the wicked are oppressed the innocent are free; but if the wicked are freed they will INEVITABLY oppress the innocent. You MUST choose sides! There are TWO lumps that will NEVER become ONE.

So I say again....may the wrath of the LIVING GOD break out and His enemies be scattered and destroyed!!!! This for His name's sake, and for the sake of His innocent ones....

ta ta........

[spitndirt]

I made a boo bo. I read two or three posts and then used yours as a catalist for my response. It was an unwise decision. You have my apologies...
...Accepted! Thanks Bro....

[WaterOfOblivion]

Of course; but hardening does not take place without a decision- a human decision.

The decision of the deaf to ignore the outcry of the watchman is inevitable.

[Kenite]

The decision of the deaf to ignore the outcry of the watchman is inevitable.So there's no point in talking to you. Thanks for letting us know.

[WaterOfOblivion]

Ah! Rebellion !

[themuzicman]

Ah! Rebellion !
glad you see that in yourself.

[RanRan]

So I say again....may the wrath of the LIVING GOD break out and His enemies be scattered and destroyed!!!! This for His name's sake, and for the sake of His innocent ones....

ta ta........Oh Jonah, sitting under a dried up twig you call the Gospel and angry at God for showing mercy to THEM. As if I have to remind you: God left Jonah there to pout.

Men hate Our Father for His mercy, the Cross, the Gospel. They end up calling down wrath on themselves. Forgive as you are forgiven.

[Kenite]

glad you see that in yourself.That's all Calvinists have. Ad hom.

[WaterOfOblivion]

glad you see that in yourself.

In fact, I do. The result of recongizing rebellion for most of my life was submitting to his doctrine, not mine. The result of accepting his doctrine is understanding he is author of all.

[themuzicman]

In fact, I do. The result of recongizing rebellion for most of my life was submitting to his doctrine, not mine. The result of accepting his doctrine is understanding he is author of all.
Calvin?

[WaterOfOblivion]

Calvin?

No.

John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

That "his", that doctrine.

[themuzicman]

No.

That "his", that doctrine.
I think your version needs a little work

[Chappie]

No.

That "his", that doctrine.
:noid: