DSS Psalm 22:17[16 in christian bibles]

[Menachem]

There has been a lot of contorversy on the rendering of Psalm 22:17[16] in the DSS over the word Ka'ari (k)RY) listed there. Christians seem to think that it is the word Ka'aru (k)RW) which is not even a Valid word in the Hebrew Language. But that isn't what I am wondering about I will post the verse from the Hebrew Tanakh in hebrew below in Blue and the one from the DSS in Orange and I will discuss below that what I am wondering:

Psalm 22:17[16] Hebrew Tanakh
(DT mR(YM HQYpWnY k)RY YDY WRGLY


Psalm 22:17[16] DSS
(DT mR(YM HQYpWnY k)RY YDYH WRGLY


the words in question are Yaday YDY

and Yadayah YDYH

Yaday YDY indicates a first person singular masculine posession which would read "My hands"

Yadayah YDYH indicates a third person singular feminine possession which would read "Her hands" Which begs the question "Who is the woman mentioned in the DSS version of this Psalm?"

[Dee Dee Warren]

which of course has nothing to do with the fact that the pierced word appears in the DSS and in certain manuscripts of the MT, and was in fact listed in the interliner Hebrew Publishing Company edition

and it is in ka'aru as I spoke personally with Flint about his discovery

[Menachem]

The only problem with that assertion Dee Dee is that Ka'aru ( k)RW) does not exist as a Valid Hebrew word.

The fact that the Yod is extended a bit doesnt make it read a vav which makes it not a Word in the Hebrew vocabulary.

and the problem with associating it with the word Karu ( kRW ) which many christians love to do is that the word does not have the meaning of pierced it means "he dug[a trench]." This word comes from the word Karah ( kRH) Meaning "dig." Karu is used 15 times in the Hebrew bible and never in the context of piercing such example Psalms 57:7.

So no the word is not a Valid word in the Hebrew Language and no it does not have anywhere close to the meaning of pierced even if you apply a different root.

My original thought still stands if you would like to comment on who the girl is in DSS Psalm 22:17[16] Yadayah ( YDYH) translates as "her hands" so who is this girl?

[Conductor42]

To quote from my website....

Now there have been arguments that the word actually means, "they pierced", but this is based on a couple of mistakes.

1) The word is ka’ari (כארי). They try to say the word is actually a form of the word karah (כרה), meaning, "to dig", most likely karu (כרו – they dug). Notice the missing letter, א (alef). Even in the Dead Sea Scrolls, that alef is there. If it wasn’t, then Christians would have a point, but they don’t. The word in Psalms 22:17 [16] is not the word meaning to dig. It is used 3 other places, and all of them are translated "like a lion" (Num 24:9; Isa 38:13; Ezek 22:25; Num 23:24). What a coincidence that Christians translate this one differently.

2) Those that try to refer to the Dead Sea Scrolls with only find the same word "like a lion" with the final yodh a bit extended, since there is no word in Hebrew spelt "כארו". It is still not a word meaning "to dig" or "to pierce". Plus, the scroll that they refer to is dated as late as the second century CE. The Septuagint isn’t much help either. No one really knows who translated the Psalms into Greek, since the official Septuagint was only the five books of Moses. The rest of it is anyone’s guess. Since it was cherished by Christians later on and maintained by them, words could easily have been altered since they weren’t as reverent with their texts as the Hebrews were with their own.

3) It is never used in the NT at all. This verse is not quoted, and for good reason.

[Dee Dee Warren]

1) The word is ka’ari (כארי). They try to say the word is actually a form of the word karah (כרה), meaning, "to dig", most likely karu (כרו – they dug). Notice the missing letter, א (alef). Even in the Dead Sea Scrolls, that alef is there. If it wasn’t, then Christians would have a point, but they don’t.

Incorrect. The root mentioned is in fact used in words meaning “pierce” or "dig." Plus, again, “pierce” is perfectly within the semantical range of meanings. As far as this additional alef I quote Glenn Miller (private correspondence by email) who has done quite a bit of work on this:


There is an entire root form system called ‘II Aleph,’ in which the aleph is the second radical in the verb (sometimes also called ‘II gutterals’). It contains words like ‘to ask’ (sh’l) and ‘to redeem’ (g’l) and ‘to pine’ (d’b)… anyone with ‘familiarity with Hebrew’ should know this!

and Glenn Miller further notes:


http://www.webcom.com/ctt/ps22cheat.html

he intrusion of the aleph is common and understood by the ancients.


also Dr. James D. Price in his response to Lippard noted


Sigal gave the impression that the presence of the Aleph in the word “ka’aru” prevented it from being derived from a Hebrew root which has no Aleph. But the words “ka’aru” and “karu” being variant forms of the same verb (as explained by the lexicographers) is demonstrated by the following Hebrew words that have the same kind of middle Aleph and the same kind of relationship:

Bo’r, bor (pit, cistern) from the verb bur (dig)
Da’g, dag (fish) from the verb dug (fish for)
La’t, lat (secrecy) from the verb lut (be secret)
M’um, mum (blemish);
N’od, nod (skin)
Q’am, qam (he arose)
Ra’sh, rash (poor) from the verb rush (be poor)
Sh’at (contempt) from the verb shut (treat with contempt)
Also in Aramaic
Da’er (dweller) from the verb dur (dwell)
Qa’em (riser) from the verb qum (he arose)

These examples are sufficient to demonstrate that a middle Aleph frequently occurs in words and forms derived from middle Waw verbs as in this passage. His argument is convincing only to those who know little or nothing about Hebrew.

And in the Encycopedia of Bible Difficulties, Gleason Archer notes:


the [“extra”] aleph probably represents a mere vowel lengthener that occasionally appears in the Hasmonean manuscripts such as 1Qisa and the sectarian literature of the second century BC.

Mitchell Dahood notes examples of intruding alephs as well, specifically Pr. 24:7 r’mwt for rmwt in Anchor Bible Psalms 1-50

Furthermore the MT textual family contains the same variant of the extra alef. And the Hebrew Publishing Company’s interlinear OT translated the passage “they have pierced.” We Christians are infiltrating Jewish publishing companies now?


The word in Psalms 22:17 [16] is not the word meaning to dig. It is used 3 other places, and all of them are translated "like a lion" (Num 24:9; Isa 38:13; Ezek 22:25; Num 23:24). What a coincidence that Christians translate this one differently.

This is borderline blatant dishonesty and this is exactly how. Christians dispute that the word there is in fact the word that should be translated "like a lion." What Yos has done is a bald-faced bait and switch, and I would think that this sort of thing (commonly done by certain anti-missionaries) would not be his tactic. He is insinuating that Christians purposefully mistranslate Ka’ari, and NOT following an alternative text which reads Ka’aru…. So all of these other cites of places where “ka’ari” appears is irrelevant. I admit up front that “they have pierced” is not a valid rendering for “ka’ari.” But that has never been the contention here, and it is not forthright to insinuate that Christians are translating the same word in different ways in this instance. :no:



2) Those that try to refer to the Dead Sea Scrolls with only find the same word "like a lion" with the final yodh a bit extended, since there is no word in Hebrew spelt "כארו". It is still not a word meaning "to dig" or "to pierce".

See above. Additionally I have spoken with Peter Flint about the issue of the alleged misextended letter, and Peter freely states that in certain scrolls found there is a certain sloppiness between yuds and vovs. However, in the scroll which contained Psalm 22, the handwriting is remarkably clear and the reading is clear “they have pierced.” There is no question that this is not a case of a handwriting problem. This yod-waw confusion was extremely prevalent in 11Q which Schiffman and Tov notes as a problem, and from what I understand some other areas/scrolls also had this confusion. However, this scroll was not found in 11Q and according to Peter Flint is a clear waw.




Plus, the scroll that they refer to is dated as late as the second century CE.

Flint has stated that this scroll was from Nahor which is dated from 50-68CE and even with Yos’s incorrect date pre-dates the MT by several hundred years, and MT variants have this same word both WITH and without the “extra” aleph.


The Septuagint isn’t much help either. No one really knows who translated the Psalms into Greek, since the official Septuagint was only the five books of Moses. The rest of it is anyone’s guess. Since it was cherished by Christians later on and maintained by them, words could easily have been altered since they weren’t as reverent with their texts as the Hebrews were with their own.


Which dastardly Christians snuck into DSS community and altered the MT which contains this some “alteration” that you are slanderously insinuating was intentional? I don't mind disagreements over interpretation and the inevitable tension that is bound to occur since my faith is claiming to be the fulfillment of yours. But the gloves come off and my biscuits get burned when this nonsense of widespread intentional and knowing deceit comes into play.


3) It is never used in the NT at all. This verse is not quoted, and for good reason.

Ahh yes you know that reason now do you? So what pray tell then was this over-riding Christian conspiracy to purposefully change some text that was not even quoted. Can’t have it both ways. It was in fact alluded to on the Cross.

[Menachem]

There has been a lot of contorversy on the rendering of Psalm 22:17[16] in the DSS over the word Ka'ari (k)RY) listed there. Christians seem to think that it is the word Ka'aru (k)RW) which is not even a Valid word in the Hebrew Language. But that isn't what I am wondering about I will post the verse from the Hebrew Tanakh in hebrew below in Blue and the one from the DSS in Orange and I will discuss below that what I am wondering:

Psalm 22:17[16] Hebrew Tanakh
(DT mR(YM HQYpWnY k)RY YDY WRGLY


Psalm 22:17[16] DSS
(DT mR(YM HQYpWnY k)RY YDYH WRGLY


the words in question are Yaday YDY

and Yadayah YDYH

Yaday YDY indicates a first person singular masculine posession which would read "My hands"

Yadayah YDYH indicates a third person singular feminine possession which would read "Her hands" Which begs the question "Who is the woman mentioned in the DSS version of this Psalm?"



Oy! Where did my original question go?

[Dee Dee Warren]

It is irrelevant to the point I was pursuing. I am ignorant of that particular issue and cannot speak to it. Since this is not something commonly trumpeted amongst even rabid antimissionary sites I imagine that it cannot be all that important. I would be interested to see if this alleged problem occurs in the MT texts that have Ka'aru both with and without the missing aleph which was not revealed until I brought it up.

[Menachem]

It is irrelevant to the point I was pursuing. I am ignorant of that particular issue and cannot speak to it. Since this is not something commonly trumpeted amongst even rabid antimissionary sites I imagine that it cannot be all that important. I would be interested to see if this alleged problem occurs in the MT texts that have Ka'aru both with and without the missing aleph which was not revealed until I brought it up.

I would be more than happy to look into this claim if you tell which MT texts to look at.

[Menachem]

To quote from my website....

Now there have been arguments that the word actually means, "they pierced", but this is based on a couple of mistakes.

1) The word is ka’ari (כארי). They try to say the word is actually a form of the word karah (כרה), meaning, "to dig", most likely karu (כרו – they dug). Notice the missing letter, א (alef). Even in the Dead Sea Scrolls, that alef is there. If it wasn’t, then Christians would have a point, but they don’t. The word in Psalms 22:17 [16] is not the word meaning to dig. It is used 3 other places, and all of them are translated "like a lion" (Num 24:9; Isa 38:13; Ezek 22:25; Num 23:24). What a coincidence that Christians translate this one differently.

2) Those that try to refer to the Dead Sea Scrolls with only find the same word "like a lion" with the final yodh a bit extended, since there is no word in Hebrew spelt "כארו". It is still not a word meaning "to dig" or "to pierce". Plus, the scroll that they refer to is dated as late as the second century CE. The Septuagint isn’t much help either. No one really knows who translated the Psalms into Greek, since the official Septuagint was only the five books of Moses. The rest of it is anyone’s guess. Since it was cherished by Christians later on and maintained by them, words could easily have been altered since they weren’t as reverent with their texts as the Hebrews were with their own.

3) It is never used in the NT at all. This verse is not quoted, and for good reason.

Plus Yoshiah even if they could place it with the root Karah kRH "to dig[a trench]" aS an imperfect form of Karu kRW "he dug[a trench]" they would still have answer the question why does it say "they dug k)RW (If it were possible to place it at this root) her hands YDYH and my feet WRGLY ?" And this is the perfect copy...lol

Karah kRH is never used in the Hebrew bible in the context of piercing. Even in the form of Karu kRW it is never used like that so they still have the major problem of the word not meaning what they claim it does as "they pierced"...

and yes the Yod is a bit extended just as the Yod is in this word in the passage mR(YM the Yod Y in this word is as long as the Ayin ( Which makes me curious "why didnt they read this extended Yod Y as a Vav W like they did the other one with an extended Yod Y ?"

[Goose]

Plus Yoshiah even if they could place it with the root Karah kRH "to dig[a trench]" aS an imperfect form of Karu kRW "he dug[a trench]" they would still have answer the question why does it say "they dug k)RW (If it were possible to place it at this root) her hands YDYH and my feet WRGLY ?" And this is the perfect copy...lol

Karah kRH is never used in the Hebrew bible in the context of piercing. Even in the form of Karu kRW it is never used like that so they still have the major problem of the word not meaning what they claim it does as "they pierced"...

and yes the Yod is a bit extended just as the Yod is in this word in the passage mR(YM the Yod Y in this word is as long as the Ayin ( Which makes me curious "why didnt they read this extended Yod Y as a Vav W like they did the other one with an extended Yod Y ?"Eli,
Have you thought that maybe it is a kabbalistic teaching? Malchut is referred to as feet, and also as a feminine, daughter like quality. i.e. The Kingdom is like a woman, etc. Maybe it's saying that the Kingdom, like a woman is nailed to HaShem, or pierced with HaShem. I don't know, but those are my thoughts.

[Goose]

כארי ידי ורגלי - MT
like a lion are my hands and my feet

כארי ידיה ורגלי - DSS
like a lion(ness?) are her hands and my feet

The context of the earlier parts of the sentence clearly shows the author being the prey of a pack of wild beasts/lions. The DSS seems to suggest that the beasts are "nipping at the heels" of the author. We've all seen tv shows where lions or lionesses are running down their prey, trying to trip up/catch the feet of their prey with their paws/hands. I don't see any allusion to piercing, especially with an iron nail.

The MT makes it unclear though, and I wouldn't know why it would say "my hands and my feet". Maybe it's a scribal error in the MS?

[Dee Dee Warren]

The DSS does not have like a lion Goose. There were TWO Psalm 22 fragments found. IIRC they BOTH have Ka'aru. We Christians are really sneaky to do that.

[Goose]

The DSS does not have like a lion Goose. There were TWO Psalm 22 fragments found. IIRC they BOTH have Ka'aru. We Christians are really sneaky to do that.Actually, I have never seen a DSS of Psalms 22. If one(or two) have been found, I don't think they're on display. I'm just going off of what Eliyosef has found.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I don't think Eli has denied what was found at Nahor. I have to check my notes of my phone call with Flint to find out if it was one or two fragments.

And like a lion my hands and my feet makes no sense in Hebrew or in English. In Hebrew the translatin woudl then be my hand and my feet at like a lion which makes no sense. I might as well say my hands my feet are like a poodle. It means nothing whichis why English translator have to fudge and add words completely missing. Egad, I am ruining all the fun of the Christian conspiracy.

[Goose]

I don't think Eli has denied what was found at Nahor. I have to check my notes of my phone call with Flint to find out if it was one or two fragments.If you could find for me the manuscript name, that would be great. i.e. 4Q11MS or something


And like a lion my hands and my feet makes no sense in Hebrew or in English. In Hebrew the translatin woudl then be my hand and my feet at like a lion which makes no sense.I don't understand your last sentence there.


I might as well say my hands my feet are like a poodle. It means nothing whichis why English translator have to fudge and add words completely missing. Egad, I am ruining all the fun of the Christian conspiracy.Maybe the "My hands and my feet" belongs to the next verse, for something like: "My hands and my feet; I can count all my bones". He alludes to how thirsty he is earlier, maybe this is an allusion to how hungry he is, where he can see the bones of his hands and feet very distinctly. This would make the previous verse something like "they have surrounded me like a lion." Anywho, I have to go get ready for class.

[Conductor42]

Incorrect. The root mentioned is in fact used in words meaning “pierce” or "dig." Plus, again, “pierce” is perfectly within the semantical range of meanings.

The word for "pierce" is found in other passages, specifically Zechariah 12:10



Furthermore the MT textual family contains the same variant of the extra alef. And the Hebrew Publishing Company’s interlinear OT translated the passage “they have pierced.” We Christians are infiltrating Jewish publishing companies now?

Which MSS? Do you know of any place that have photos of that passage, and an identification of the MSS photographed?



This is borderline blatant dishonesty and this is exactly how. Christians dispute that the word there is in fact the word that should be translated "like a lion." What Yos has done is a bald-faced bait and switch, and I would think that this sort of thing (commonly done by certain anti-missionaries) would not be his tactic. He is insinuating that Christians purposefully mistranslate Ka’ari, and NOT following an alternative text which reads Ka’aru…. So all of these other cites of places where “ka’ari” appears is irrelevant. I admit up front that “they have pierced” is not a valid rendering for “ka’ari.” But that has never been the contention here, and it is not forthright to insinuate that Christians are translating the same word in different ways in this instance. :no:

DDW, my site does not say that Christians translate כארי as "pierced".
Please read again what David says:


Now there have been arguments that the word actually means, "they pierced", but this is based on a couple of mistakes.

1) The word is ka’ari (כארי).

I do agree with you that the language, and concede the point about the Aleph. It has been changed to the following:



Now there have been arguments that the word actually means, "they pierced", but this is based on a couple of mistakes.

1) The word is ka’ari (כארי). They try to say the word is actually a form of the word karah (כרה), meaning, "to dig", most likely karu (כרו – they dug). The word in Psalms 22:17 [16] is not the word meaning to dig. It is used 3 other places, and all of them are translated "like a lion" (Num 24:9; Isa 38:13; Ezek 22:25; Num 23:24).

2) Those that try to refer to the Dead Sea Scrolls with only find the same word "like a lion" with the final yodh a bit extended. It is not a word meaning "to dig" or "to pierce". Plus, the scroll that they refer to is dated as late as the second century CE. The Septuagint isn’t much help either. No one really knows who translated the Psalms into Greek, since the official Septuagint was only the five books of Moses. The rest of it is anyone’s guess.


Do you find this to be better?


Additionally I have spoken with Peter Flint about the issue of the alleged misextended letter, and Peter freely states that in certain scrolls found there is a certain sloppiness between yuds and vovs. However, in the scroll which contained Psalm 22, the handwriting is remarkably clear and the reading is clear “they have pierced.” There is no question that this is not a case of a handwriting problem.

Do you know of somewhere we could view a photocopy of this? My aunt is currently borrowing a book of mine that has photocopies of the texts.



This yod-waw confusion was extremely prevalent in 11Q which Schiffman and Tov notes as a problem, and from what I understand some other areas/scrolls also had this confusion. However, this scroll was not found in 11Q and according to Peter Flint is a clear waw.

Are you speaking of Emmanuel Tov?



Flint has stated that this scroll was from Nahor which is dated from 50-68CE and even with Yos’s incorrect date pre-dates the MT by several hundred years, and MT variants have this same word both WITH and without the “extra” aleph.

The DSS scrolls have a wide variety of dating, partly because the caves were used by different people at different times.



Which dastardly Christians snuck into DSS community and altered the MT which contains this some “alteration” that you are slanderously insinuating was intentional? I don't mind disagreements over interpretation and the inevitable tension that is bound to occur since my faith is claiming to be the fulfillment of yours. But the gloves come off and my biscuits get burned when this nonsense of widespread intentional and knowing deceit comes into play.

When did I - or anyone on my site - claim that Christians altered the DSS?



Ahh yes you know that reason now do you? So what pray tell then was this over-riding Christian conspiracy to purposefully change some text that was not even quoted. Can’t have it both ways. It was in fact alluded to on the Cross.

I prefer the Jewish Conspiracy :P

[Conductor42]

I don't think Eli has denied what was found at Nahor. I have to check my notes of my phone call with Flint to find out if it was one or two fragments.

And like a lion my hands and my feet makes no sense in Hebrew or in English. In Hebrew the translatin woudl then be my hand and my feet at like a lion which makes no sense. I might as well say my hands my feet are like a poodle. It means nothing whichis why English translator have to fudge and add words completely missing. Egad, I am ruining all the fun of the Christian conspiracy.

I'll get to this very soon - I gotta go cash my check before the bank closes!

[Conductor42]

And like a lion my hands and my feet makes no sense in Hebrew or in English. In Hebrew the translatin woudl then be my hand and my feet at like a lion which makes no sense. I might as well say my hands my feet are like a poodle. It means nothing whichis why English translator have to fudge and add words completely missing.

On this my friend Nehemia Gordon has already wrote something much better worded than I. Nehemia, BTW, works along Emmanuel Tov on the DSS project.

Here it is...

This entire Psalms is talking about David's experience and his appeal to
YHWH to save him from his enemies. It has nothing to do with a future
Messiah, whatever the meaning of Ps 22:17-18.

In any event, Ps 22:17 says as follows:
(×™×–) ×›Ö¼Ö´×™ ×¡Ö°×‘Ö¸×‘×•Ö¼× Ö´×™ כְּלָבִי×? | עֲדַת
מְרֵעִי×? ×”Ö´×§Ö¼Ö´×™×¤×•Ö¼× Ö´×™ ×›Ö¼Ö¸×?ֲרִי יָדַי
וְרַגְלָי:

"For they have surrounded me like dogs; a pack of evildoers, they have
encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and my feet."

For of all the second half of the verse breaks up into two parts, as
indicated by the biblical accents:
"a pack of evildoers, they have encompassed me,
like a lion, my hands and my feet."

It could have been read differently but the accents preclude this
possibility.

The second half of the verse contains a "deficient parallel" which means
some of the words from the first quarter are assumed in the second. So the
second half must be read:

"a pack of evildoers, they have encompassed me,
like a lion, [they have encompassed] my hands and my feet."

It is typical of a difficient parallel that the verb is repeated. A good
example is:

"Blow the shofar on the new moon, on the appointed-time, for the day of our
feast."

Which means:

"Blow the shofar on the new moon; [Blow the shofar] on the appointed-time,
for the day of our feast."

This style is very common and probably appears in every Psalm.

Further on Ps 22:17 one common claim of Christians is that the Dead Sea
Scrolls contain a different reading. In stead of "like a lion, my hands and
my feat" they claim it says "they have pierced my hands and my feat". This
is simply not true. The word for pierce (Zech 12:10) is DKR, the word they
claim to read in the Dead Sea Scroll is KRW which means "they dug", not
"they peireced". But the truth is that it does not even say "they dug"!
This is a good example of what happens when amatures try to read the
scrolls. In Qumran writing the Vav and Yod are nearly identical. So what
they through wishfull thinking read as Karu ("they dug") is actual Kari
("like a lion"), just as in the Masoretic text. You may notice that the
Masoretic text spells "like a lion" Ka'ari while the Dead Sea Scoll spells
it Kari. This difference is so common between the Masoretic text and the
Dead Sea Scrolls that it is not even worth bringing examples (but anyway,
Hos 2:1 in MT Ha'aretz, in DSS Haretz). The reason for this difference is
that the Qumran people spoke Hebrew and had a tendency to "swallow" the
gutteral letters (Aleph, Chet, Ayin, He) which they could not pronounce
properly. This happens with all the guteral letters, all the time in the
DSS.

Another Christian claim is that the Septuagint reads "they pierced" in Ps
22:17. Again, this is simply not true. The Septuagint reads oruxan "they
dug". The word for "they pierced" in Greek is katorchesanto (Zech 12:10), a
completely different and unrelated word. So what does the Greek of LXX Ps
22:17 "they dug my hands and my feet" mean? Absolutely nothing! The Greek
translators of LXX very often translated literally word for word not
concerned about whether what they were translating made any sense. This is
very common and appears all over the septuagint. For example, the Hebrew
expression "like always in the past" kepaam bepaam (1Sam 3:10) they
translated "hos hapax kai hapax" "like one time and one time" which is utter
gibberish, even to an ancient Greek (by the way, the LXX misread here bepaam
as vepaam!). What probably happened is the LXX read a Hebrew text similar
to the Dead Sea Scrolls and mistook Kary (like a lion) for Karu (they dug)
creating this gibberish sentence "they dug my hands and my feet".


Egad, I am ruining all the fun of the Christian conspiracy.

The Jewish (and/or the Karaite) conspiracy is soo much more fun! Maybe after I'm done brainwashing you I'll make you into one of our drones :smile:

[Conductor42]

ARgh... it looks like the Hebrew didn't copy and paste for some reason. That gibberish in the beggining was supposed to be hebrew.

[Goose]

What do you all think of my idea of the "My hands and my feet" should be the beginning of the next verse?

Wild animals have encompassed me.
My hands and my feet - I can count all my bones.

[Goose]

Thoughts?

[Conductor42]

How did you come to this idea?

[Goose]

How did you come to this idea?Well, the Torah didn't originally contain verses. It was all just one huge sentence. There are no punctuation points in Hebrew, making punctuation subject to context. Here, I found context. Maybe this is also why the Jewish and Christian bibles differ on verse number.

[Menachem]

What do you all think of my idea of the "My hands and my feet" should be the beginning of the next verse?

Wild animals have encompassed me.
My hands and my feet - I can count all my bones.


I find it an interesting Idea. Here is what could also be done to fit the "like a lion" in the assessment since we cant leave it out.


"Wild animals have entrapped me like a lion.
My hands and my feet, I can count the bones.

we can use the word encompassed to mean entrapment since that is what is occuring here and it can perfectly well mean that. and place "like a lion" in there to put all of the words in.

I think it could work that way. That was a good assessment goose.


I don't think Eli has denied what was found at Nahor. I have to check my notes of my phone call with Flint to find out if it was one or two fragments.

From what I remember the DSS didnt preserve this psalm. plus if you take a really close look at the yod's and the vav in the verse in the Nehal Hever finding the top of this so called vav in "Ka'ari" looks like the yod's in the verse with very sharp point at the top. While the vav on the otherhand does not go up to a point and come down it goes with a straight line slanted down then down with a straight line going downward.

When you get up close and look at them one really starts to wonder if early christians/sectarians did actually alter this part of the verse to make it match up with "the jesus events." Or, it could be simple scribal sloppyness and the yod was a bit extended just like other yod's in the scrolls.


And like a lion my hands and my feet makes no sense in Hebrew or in English. In Hebrew the translatin woudl then be my hand and my feet at like a lion which makes no sense. I might as well say my hands my feet are like a poodle. It means nothing whichis why English translator have to fudge and add words completely missing. Egad, I am ruining all the fun of the Christian conspiracy

Actually Dee Dee the verb "to be" can be inferred in this verse. Meaning it doesn't have to be there in order for it to be placed there which is perfectly Ok in Hebrew. The verse could read from the peshat rendering " Like a lion are my hands and my feet." Knowing the verb "to be" is inferred. Now going a bit further with this and taking it further into the Darash mode we can say the verse reads this way. "like a lion[defending itself] are my hands and my feet" taking that evil doers are surrounding him like a pack of wild animals. That is why many Hebrew bibles put stuff in there like "they maul" or "they are at"

To me this makes perfect sense in the context of the verses used before and after.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I will be back to this thread....



When you get up close and look at them one really starts to wonder if early christians/sectarians did actually alter this part of the verse to make it match up with "the jesus events."

Utter slanderous nonsense. this is antichristian bigotry

[Menachem]

I will be back to this thread....



Utter slanderous nonsense. this is antichristian bigotry


Not quite Dee Dee, only pointing out two possibilities either the scribe made an error(which you neglected to put in the post for some odd reason) or it was edited by those other than the Essenes or Prushim, which some scholars say it is quite possible given the events going on in the first century.

The only group that it so happens could get into groups without a prevalent theology floating to the top were the early christians who were still primarily Jewish and saw this portion of Psalms as an early proof text.

So no, this is no more of Slanderous bigotry towards christians anymore than the jokes about the Jewish conspiracy being slanderous antisemetic bigotry towards Jews. This is a simple possible case scenario that you dont want to see or hear about.

[Conductor42]

DDW has specifically avoided accusing any side of editing the texts to suite their interests. I believe we should do the same.

[Menachem]

DDW has specifically avoided accusing any side of editing the texts to suite their interests. I believe we should do the same.

Fair enough, granted I did not limit my possibility to only the christian side but to rather both sides both Jewish and Christian...

But nonetheless I withdraw myself from any accusations on the behest of Yoshiah and Dee Dee..Sorry Guys, my apologies.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Thank you.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I would be more than happy to look into this claim if you tell which MT texts to look at.
I cannot give you that information as I only know that they exist and the fact that there are Hebrew manuscripts that follow this rendering is documented in reference Bibles. You may choose to discount that, but that woudl involve alleging deceit somewhere only the line. However, this is preserved in the Hebrew Publishing Company interlinear tanach that the ka'aru is in the Hebrew portion. They got it from somewhere.

[Dee Dee Warren]

The word for "pierce" is found in other passages, specifically Zechariah 12:10

And this word falls within that semantical range.



Which MSS? Do you know of any place that have photos of that passage, and an identification of the MSS photographed?
No I am sorry I do not. If I had this type of work as my primary focus as I once didk I would have the time to research that thoroughly. I don't right now, but see my answer to Eli above.




DDW, my site does not say that Christians translate כארי as "pierced".
Please read again what David says:
Then it is certainly confusing. But if you say that is not what you are claiming, great! You might want to make it clearer.




Do you know of somewhere we could view a photocopy of this? My aunt is currently borrowing a book of mine that has photocopies of the texts.
No I do not, but maybe if you speak with Flint? I found him to be very accessible.




Are you speaking of Emmanuel Tov?
Yes.




The DSS scrolls have a wide variety of dating, partly because the caves were used by different people at different times.
Flint was emphatic with me on the date range for this.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Now unfortunately I don't have the time to continue to research every point with this. I think Miller has done a fantastic job withit at the ThinkTank, and with the Hebrew points earlier, I stand by my statements as they were confirmed with people that I know are fluent. Eli may disagree, adn then it is a he said, she said thing, and the reader may judge for himself. This is not the slam dunk that the antimissionaries try to claim.

[Menachem]

Now unfortunately I don't have the time to continue to research every point with this. I think Miller has done a fantastic job withit at the ThinkTank, and with the Hebrew points earlier, I stand by my statements as they were confirmed with people that I know are fluent. Eli may disagree, adn then it is a he said, she said thing, and the reader may judge for himself. This is not the slam dunk that the antimissionaries try to claim.

I agree that is is almost certainly a "he said, she said thing"....As I stand by my points as well....