The Frozen Crystal

[Epoetker]

I've been trying to get a handle on what Skeptics truly mean by a God that would solve all nasty theodicy problems, while simultaneously thinking about several talk.origins type challenges on the relative operative optimality of various biological structures, whether or not they're "bad design," etc. After a particularly fruitless discussion on the relative merits of the Second Law of Thermo, I quite by accident learned this in chemistry:

A system with zero entropy (disorder) can only exist in a perfect crystal at 0 degrees Kelvin.

I thought, and thought, and thought about it some more, and realized what a powerful argument this was against many, MANY traditional atheistic objections. Do you wish to see the image of Perfection? Do you desire to be free of all the pains of life? Do you wish for no intrusions on your person by annoying folks with oddball beliefs? Do you desire that a created thing be cut off from every experience that might affect it for ill? Do you wish a perfect design to be enshrined for all time? Does the prospect of anybody forcing anything on anyone turn your stomach? Do you seek an immortality apart from any obligation to a capricious Deity?

Enter the Frozen Crystal and rejoice forever in the everlasting triumph of your ideas unencumbered by any ignorant opposition.


(BTW, didn't Dante hit this characterization spot-on in a certain work of his? Vexilla regis prodeunt inferni, y'all. Feel free to refer to the Frozen Crystal the next time some fellow thinks that invisible force fields should prevent evil among those of free will.)

[Butters]

So is God a frozen crystal? Or is he imperfect?

[Lazy Agnostic]

It would be nice if He'd stop impregnating rapevictims.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Now that I think about it, having everything go perfectly for eternity would make one bonkers. Maybe God isn't in control at all; maybe He just pushed the button marked "Surprise Me".

It seems He doesn't participate in anything but our psychology.

[Butters]

Who was it that said "immortality is for the Gods, Iwonder how they can stand it."?

[TenDimensions]

Today @ 06:24 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=60621#post60621)
Lazy Agnostic:
Now that I think about it, having everything go perfectly for eternity would make one bonkers. Maybe God isn't in control at all; maybe He just pushed the button marked "Surprise Me".


Now funny you should mention that. Has anyone ever read Scott Adam's e-book "God's Debris"?

Here's a short review-synopsis (http://www.nationalreview.com/weekend/books/books-lott102701.shtml) and you can actually get it here (http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook8670.htm). Unfortunately, Adams decided to publish this book in a format that most people won't enjoy and it's difficult to get a hold of.

But I promise you that if contemplating the nature of God is an interesting topic for you then I highly recommend this short novel. The review I mentioned above sums it up much better than I could.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Yesterday @ 08:27 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=60694#post60694)
TenDimensions:



Now funny you should mention that. Has anyone ever read Scott Adam's e-book "God's Debris"?

Here's a short review-synopsis (http://www.nationalreview.com/weekend/books/books-lott102701.shtml) and you can actually get it here (http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook8670.htm). Unfortunately, Adams decided to publish this book in a format that most people won't enjoy and it's difficult to get a hold of.

But I promise you that if contemplating the nature of God is an interesting topic for you then I highly recommend this short novel. The review I mentioned above sums it up much better than I could. How can I not?

[Epoetker]

So is God a frozen crystal? Or is he imperfect?

He apparently has enough respect for the imperfect to allow them the experience of the frozen crystal if they so choose.

It seems He doesn't participate in anything but our psychology.

If we hold to the extreme reductionist view that all human experience is only sensory firings experienced through a psychological filter, then yes.

Who was it that said "immortality is for the Gods, Iwonder how they can stand it."?

Have you thought yet that perhaps some of the precepts of Christianity that seem preposterous to you might be preparation for this very thing? Could you endure immortality without the most immortal mortal on earth a part of you? And that one of the reasons Hell exists is because those eternal beings who spurned the advice need to be put in the most conducive environment for this attitude?

On God's Debris:

God didn't need to blow Himself up to accomplish that striving for connectedness. He is full and flows over. Just the axiom for now, although the debris thing hits hard because it is very close to the truth of the matter. We're more God's drippings than debris, although it can look like that from this angle.

[Butters]

“ So is God a frozen crystal? Or is he imperfect? ”



"He apparently has enough respect for the imperfect to allow them the experience of the frozen crystal if they so choose."

Uh, no thanks



"Have you thought yet that perhaps some of the precepts of Christianity that seem preposterous to you might be preparation for this very thing?"

No, but now that I do, it still seems preposterous, but reincarnation does seem to make more sense in this light.


It seems He doesn't participate in anything but our psychology. ”



"If we hold to the extreme reductionist view that all human experience is only sensory firings experienced through a psychological filter, then yes."

While I disagree with your definition of reductionist, I must point out that the view that all human experience is only sensory firings experienced through a psychological filter, is the only view that can even begin to work for us, without it, we can all believe in fairies, ghosts, and goblins, no problem.


"Could you endure immortality without the most immortal mortal on earth a part of you?"

What the h does this even mean?


"And that one of the reasons Hell exists is because those eternal beings who spurned the advice need to be put in the most conducive environment for this attitude?"

What advice? Nobody told me nothing about no frozen crystal, I didn't read about it in the bible, and what is hell supposed to do, make you long for a nice cold place like a frozen crystal?

Boy, you so quazy!

[Epoetker]

Uh, no thanks

Ask a silly question...

No, but now that I do, it still seems preposterous, but reincarnation does seem to make more sense in this light.

How is having your knowledge and experience slate atomized and having to start over at the beginning of human experience make more sense?

While I disagree with your definition of reductionist, I must point out that the view that all human experience is only sensory firings experienced through a psychological filter, is the only view that can even begin to work for us, without it, we can all believe in fairies, ghosts, and goblins, no problem.

But how do we truly KNOW that it works? Maybe it just affects our senses to make them THINK it does!

What the h does this even mean?

Y'know, that whole "Jesus living in you" spiel? Do you honestly think you'd even be halfway prepared for immortality without the incorporation of consciousness from a Person who'd already experienced it?

What advice? Nobody told me nothing about no frozen crystal, I didn't read about it in the bible, and what is hell supposed to do, make you long for a nice cold place like a frozen crystal?

I have no current eyewitnees physical description of hell, so I'm going for the literary liscence. Didn't you ever read Dante's Inferno? His vision of the worst possible torture for the worst possible sinners imaginable was to be frozen, rather than fried. And C.S. Lewis's hell had a person trapped within the prison of his own mind, shut off forever from all outside contact.

Boy, you so quazy!

This analysis is perfectly consistent with the mystery of existence and should be quite acceptable among those who believe in quantum fluctuations producing something from nothing and the existence of potentially infinite universes. I'm not the one who chose Butters/PROFESSOR CHAOS! as my screen name, anyway. BTW, when you getting your avatar?

[Butters]

No, but now that I do, it still seems preposterous, but reincarnation does seem to make more sense in this light. ”
"How is having your knowledge and experience slate atomized and having to start over at the beginning of human experience make more sense?"


You don't have your knowledge and experience atomized, they are incorporated into your soul. After enough experience, you will have gathered enough knowledge and experience to be able to achieve and deal with immortality.


While I disagree with your definition of reductionist, I must point out that the view that all human experience is only sensory firings experienced through a psychological filter, is the only view that can even begin to work for us, without it, we can all believe in fairies, ghosts, and goblins, no problem. ”

"But how do we truly KNOW that it works? Maybe it just affects our senses to make them THINK it does!"

Ah, you misunderstand. I did not say it was absolutly TRUE, only that it WORKS.



I have no current eyewitnees physical description of hell, so I'm going for the literary liscence. Didn't you ever read Dante's Inferno? His vision of the worst possible torture for the worst possible sinners imaginable was to be frozen, rather than fried. And C.S. Lewis's hell had a person trapped within the prison of his own mind, shut off forever from all outside contact.

Sounds more like your concept of God than a discription of hell.


"This analysis is perfectly consistent with the mystery of existence and should be quite acceptable among those who believe in quantum fluctuations producing something from nothing and the existence of potentially infinite universes. I'm not the one who chose Butters/PROFESSOR CHAOS! as my screen name, anyway. BTW, when you getting your avatar?"


How can anything claim to be consenstant with a "mystery"?
Haven't thought about an avatar, cute idea, I'll think about it.

[Epoetker]

You don't have your knowledge and experience atomized, they are incorporated into your soul. After enough experience, you will have gathered enough knowledge and experience to be able to achieve and deal with immortality.

But doesn't the whole exploding population thing put a bit of a scientific damper on the concept? Did a lot of insects recently do some Very Altruistic Insecty Things to manifest themselves in the human population?

I must point out that the view that all human experience is only sensory firings experienced through a psychological filter, is the only view that can even begin to work for us

No it isn't. You could also take the view that the universe deteced by our senses EXISTS independently of them.

Ah, you misunderstand. I did not say it was absolutly TRUE, only that it WORKS.

I'll hold you to that, because that's exactly the thing that's kept me in Christianity during the times when I doubted its truthfulness.

Sounds more like your concept of God than a discription of hell.

Nyope. That's the destiny of all those who choose to abuse their free will. God is the opposite of disconnection and stasis.

How can anything claim to be consenstant with a "mystery"?

Its known regularities can fit the known regularities of the mystery. Often leading to parts of the mystery becoming less mysterious. The Frozen Crystal concept certainly cleared up a lot of objections I had about the whole "problem of evil" business.

Haven't thought about an avatar, cute idea, I'll think about it.

This was the Butters I was thinking of:

[Butters]

"But doesn't the whole exploding population thing put a bit of a scientific damper on the concept? Did a lot of insects recently do some Very Altruistic Insecty Things to manifest themselves in the human population?"

Not really, if we are going to accept the concept of a "soul", new ones could be made all the time. Or maybe our incarnations are not restricted to this planet, maybe on some distant planet the population is decreasing. Or maybe they are souls of animals that have worked their way up, scince the animal population is decreasing.

"I must point out that the view that all human experience is only sensory firings experienced through a psychological filter, is the only view that can even begin to work for us ”

"No it isn't. You could also take the view that the universe deteced by our senses EXISTS independently of them."

Sorry, My fault for not being clear, I DO believe that the universe exists independently of our senses, but we experience it through our senses.

Ah, you misunderstand. I did not say it was absolutly TRUE, only that it WORKS. ”

"I'll hold you to that, because that's exactly the thing that's kept me in Christianity during the times when I doubted its truthfulness."

Well, it probably does work for you, just as every other religion ever invented worked for it's followers. We just watched a show on people that worship aliens, they seemed very happy, It seemed to work for them.

Sounds more like your concept of God than a discription of hell. ”

"Nyope. That's the destiny of all those who choose to abuse their free will. God is the opposite of disconnection and stasis."


Well, your discription of being frozen in statis sure misled me.


How can anything claim to be consenstant with a "mystery"? ”



"Its known regularities can fit the known regularities of the mystery. Often leading to parts of the mystery becoming less mysterious. The Frozen Crystal concept certainly cleared up a lot of objections I had about the whole "problem of evil" business."


Well, I think your going to have a hard time selling thid idea, but, good luck.

Haven't thought about an avatar, cute idea, I'll think about it. ”



"This was the Butters I was thinking of:"

Thanks, I'll try to use it, that is exactly the look on my face when I read things like God is a frozen crystal, the earth is only 6000 years old, and things of the like.

[Butters]

"But doesn't the whole exploding population thing put a bit of a scientific damper on the concept? Did a lot of insects recently do some Very Altruistic Insecty Things to manifest themselves in the human population?"

Not really, if we are going to accept the concept of a "soul", new ones could be made all the time. Or maybe our incarnations are not restricted to this planet, maybe on some distant planet the population is decreasing. Or maybe they are souls of animals that have worked their way up, scince the animal population is decreasing.


Hey look at that! I'm doing apologetics!