joseph smith and satan.

[JesusFreakVOM]

did joseph smith have help from satan in setting up the counterfeit gospel called mormonism?

[kiwimac]

Do you actually know anything about Joseph Smith and the Restoration?

Kiwimac

[JesusFreakVOM]

there was nothing to restore, the truth has always been in the bible, i might add that mormonism contradicts the bible in many areas, such as eternal marriage, baptism for the dead,etc.

[spl_cadet]

I think he was simply a lunatic who got followers or a rather clever con man.

[JesusFreakVOM]

he was very clever and knew how to get what he wanted,i.e. power and many sex partners.

[kiwimac]

JFV

Can you show me anywhere in the BoM where Eternal marriage or Baptism for the dead is taught?

Kiwimac

[JesusFreakVOM]

they were taught by the founders of the religion, ie , joseph smith and brigham young. the gospels teach us that people arent married in heaven. yet the mormons totally disregard that, the lds religion is man centered not GOD centered. typical false cult.

[GrayPilgrim]

Kiwi,

Off topic, but does the Church you belong to only use the BoM or the Pearl of Great Price and the other standard Mormon Literutre as well?

[John Powell]

POWELL:
Comments to JesusFreakVOM, SPL_Cadet, and KIWIMAC.

JesusFreakVOM:
did joseph smith have help from satan in setting up the counterfeit gospel called mormonism?


POWELL:
Fallacy of the complex question similar to "have you stopped beating your wife?" When I answer from the perspective of what I used to believe it will be tagged as JOHN MORMON. When I respond according to my current beliefs as a strong atheist, I'll tag it as JOHN ATHEIST.

JOHN MORMON:
Joseph Smith was not inspired by Satan, JesusFreakVOM. Mormonism is not a counterfeit Gospel, but the true Gospel.

JesusFreakVOM:
there was nothing to restore, the truth has always been in the bible, i might add that mormonism contradicts the bible in many areas, such as eternal marriage, baptism for the dead,etc.


JOHN MORMON:
Then why is it, JesusFreakVOM, that prior to Joseph Smith there was not on the Earth the kinds of important things that existed in the primitive church such as prophets who gave new scriptures, eternal marriage, baptisms for the dead, and a correct understanding of things like the nature and attributes of God, and our pre-mortal existence as spirits?

SPL_CADET:
I think he was simply a lunatic who got followers or a rather clever con man.


JOHN ATHEIST:
Do you have good evidence for that psychological assessment, Spl_Cadet?

JesusFreakVOM:
he was very clever and knew how to get what he wanted,i.e. power and many sex partners.


JOHN ATHEIST:
Is it possible, JesusFreakVOM, that Peter, James, Paul, Moses, David, and the other characters in the Bible had some of the same deceptive characteristics?

KIWIMAC:
JFV

Can you show me anywhere in the BoM where Eternal marriage or Baptism for the dead is taught?


JOHN ATHEIST:
This wasn't asked of me, Kiwimac, but I'll oblige.

1 Cor 15:29 (KJV):
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

The Mormon argument goes something like the following:

Paul was using the FACT that the Corinthians were baptizing for the dead to argue with them that holding to that view the Corinthians should accept the importance of the resurrection. The FACT that Paul used the practice to support the resurrection and did not criticize it suggests that it was a correct doctrine.

As to eternal marriage, the following are the Biblical scriptures listed in the Mormon "Topical Guide" that is published with their scriptures (I've deleted the Mormon only scriptures)

http://scriptures.lds.org/tgm/mrrgclst

Gen. 2: 24 (Gen. 2: 18; Matt. 19: 5) cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

Eccl. 3: 14 whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever.

Matt. 16: 19 (Matt. 18: 18) whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.

Mark 10: 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

1 Cor. 11: 11 neither is the man without the woman . . . in the Lord.

Eph. 5: 31 a man . . . shall be joined unto his wife . . . be one flesh.

1 Pet. 3: 7 heirs together of the grace of life.

Hel. 10: 7 whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven.

JesusFreakVOM
they were taught by the founders of the religion, ie , joseph smith and brigham young. the gospels teach us that people arent married in heaven. yet the mormons totally disregard that, the lds religion is man centered not GOD centered. typical false cult.


JOHN MORMON:
I suspect you are misunderstanding a scripture, JesusFreakVOM, that says they aren't given in marriage "in heaven." That's essentially correct. Except perhaps for rare cases, eternal marriages are performed for people living on Earth or by proxy for those in the spirit world prior to them entering the Celestial Kingdom.

JOHN ATHEIST:
Is it possible that your church, JesusFreakVOM,"is man centered not GOD centered"?

John Powell
A former believer in Mormonism,
Now an athe-ist or strong atheist

[kiwimac]

John,

Not one of your quotes came from the Book of Mormon.

JFV,

I asked you where they were taught in the Book of Mormon, lets take this one step at a time, eh? find 'em if you can.

GP,

The Community of Christ is mostly Bible-centered but we use the RLDS 1908 translation of the Book of Mormon (or the 1966 Revised edition) and the D & C we use is very different from the LDS version from about section 108 onwards. We do not accept the PGP as scripture.

Kiwimac

[GrayPilgrim]

Thanks Kiwi.

[HemofHisGarment]

Yesterday @ 10:35 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62995#post62995)
JesusFreakVOM:

they were taught by the founders of the religion, ie , joseph smith and brigham young. the gospels teach us that people arent married in heaven. yet the mormons totally disregard that, the lds religion is man centered not GOD centered. typical false cult.

Great thread! :smile:

typical cult? that being any religious organization, right?

Anyway...
What firsthand experience do you have with any of the essential LDS beliefs (such as having read the BOM or attending a church service) to make such an ignorant claim that the church is a cult?! It's a pretty strong word to use against an organization that is so very similar to many other Christian groups; all of Christianity is divided by differences in doctrinal beliefs, but the LDS beliefs are singled out in an effort to create paranoia. Other Christian churches in effect today were started in a similar fashion (in the 1800's by men who believed they rec'd revelation/inspiration.) There is really nothing new, here.

[HemofHisGarment]

POWELL~

Your post was very interesting...may I ask how you became an athe-ist? (and what is the significance of your spelling of the word)
Thanks,
Adrianne

[John Powell]

KIWIMAC:
John,

Not one of your quotes came from the Book of Mormon.

JFV,

I asked you where they were taught in the Book of Mormon, lets take this one step at a time, eh? find 'em if you can.


JOHN MORMON:
Oops, you're right. :dunce:

You wrote "BOM" and I tried to answer so many questions so fast, I didn't check that closely enough. My mistake. I assumed you meant in the Bible. The clear references to those doctrines are in other LDS Scriptures, such as the Doctrine and Covenants. I'll give them to you if you wish. Does it bother you that those two doctrines aren't clearly described in the Book of Mormon? If yes, why?

JOHN ATHEIST:
Curiously enough, the references to polygamy in the Book of Mormon are negative. Evidently, Joseph Smith decided polygamy was a good idea after he finished writing the Book of Mormon.

KIWIMAC:
GP,
The Community of Christ is mostly Bible-centered but we use the RLDS 1908 translation of the Book of Mormon (or the 1966 Revised edition) and the D & C we use is very different from the LDS version from about section 108 onwards. We do not accept the PGP as scripture.

Kiwimac


JOHN ATHEIST:
Now things are making more sense. Kiwimac, you are a member of what used to be called the RLDS, right?

The Pearl of Great Price, specifically the book of Abraham, is proving to be an embarrassment to the LDS Church. They probably wish the original papyri had never been discovered.

John Powell

[John Powell]

HemofHisGarment:

POWELL~

Your post was very interesting...may I ask how you became an athe-ist? (and what is the significance of your spelling of the word)

Thanks,
Adrianne

POWELL:

CONVERSION:
I posted my conversion story in the orientation section, but maybe it's been deleted. I was born into a strong Mormon family, but personal disappointment and my scientific background and such things combined to lead me to conclude that God does not exist.

MEANING OF ATHE-IST:
Some dictionary defintions on atheism are ill-advised.

Theist means "God believer" or "believer in God." Since a "theist" is someone who believes in God. an "a-theist" is someone who does NOT believe in (your) God. This is also called a weak atheist. An athe-ist or strong atheist, however, is someone who DOES believe that (your) God does NOT exist. There is a difference. The a-theist might merely withhold judgment. He doesn't believe IN your God, but he doesn't necessarily deny that your God exists. The athe-ist, however, denies the existence of your God.

Children are all born a-theists. Children can't believe IN something they are ignorant of. (flamebait)

I feel justified in denying the existence of your God like I feel justified in denying the existence of Santa Claus as usually described (north pole address, flying reindeer, army of elves). I don't absolutely KNOW that your God and Santa Claus don't exist, but I'm confident enough to feel justified in boldly stating such to be the case.

Because of these definitions, Christians are a-theists relative to God-concepts they are ignorant of and athe-ists relative to those they are aware of but which don't match their own.

One interesting difference between theists and atheists is that theists don't believe in 1000s of other Gods. Atheists don't make an exception for the God that the theist believes in.

John Powell
An athe-ist or strong atheist.

[JesusFreakVOM]

john powell, u go from mormonism to atheism.i.e. from the belief that GOD is just an exalted man, to the belief that there is no GOD. you went from a low opinion of GOD to an opinion that there is no GOD. u went in the wrong direction, GOD is the alpha and omega, the only GOD.

[kiwimac]

John,

Yes I went from being an LDS Elder to being a Quaker to joining the RLDS / CofC.

Kiwimac

[HemofHisGarment]

Thanks Powell.

[john damien]

John Powell

I can totaly understand how one may become disillusioned with the practices and teachings of a particular brand or style of world view.
Yours was Mormonism.
But you go from a style of the christian world view into denial of the entire christian world view.
This seems to suggest that you jumped from A to Z without seeing first if the rest of the alphabet is in between.
Many people will find fault not with the teachings of Jesus but with the members of his Church and jump tp the conclusion that christians are flawed because of a faulty belief system.
But you strike me as being more intellegent than to make a simple mistake like that, so please tell what is it that you find lacking in the Christian world view (keep in mind that if there are doctrinal issues it is likely that they are specific to a particular denomination)
And I saw that you cited science as one of the things that influenced your change of mind.
I can see how science can ask questions, but not how it can disprove that which it has an incomplete understanding of.
The fact that you dont deny the possible existence of God supports my hunch that you recognize that science cannot answer definitvley any of your questions on faith.
This must leave logic as the process by which you reject the christian world view. So please let us hear it.
You know that when you think about it logic is just a way determining the truth of something, but logic is built on laws that themselves needed to be deteremined. And under what laws were they made? the mind boggles
:hrm:

Im not trying to put ou on the spot, I am genuinly interested to know if you found a jogical path out of christianity, Ive looked but mabey I missed something?