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Yog^sothoth
April 10th 2003, 07:22 PM
GODISNOWHERE (www.godisnowhere.org)

PREACHING THE GOOD BAD NEWS

by Jim Schofield
March 2003


Gospel, n. good news

Revelation 21:8 -- But the cowardly, and sinners unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Years ago, in a church in southwest Colorado, I saw a woman stand before the congregation to relate something recent in her life. Mary had a friend at work that she knew was not a Christian. For several years, she had struggled with the desire to share the gospel with her friend. She didn’t want to upset her, didn’t want her friend to think she was “weird,” didn’t want to be annoying or seem self-righteous. So she put it off and put it off.

And then… Mary’s friend died unexpectedly in a car accident. And now, just days later, here stood Mary before her church, literally in tears, expressing her terrible regret and the tremendous sadness she now felt because she knew where her friend had gone to. The consequences of Mary’s silence had now hit home.

I’m sure you’ve heard the scripturally based adage that we are to preach the Good News to the unsaved, the lost… “The sinner unbelieving.” No Christian is unfamiliar with this idea. People are going to Hell, and God has given us the responsibility to share the gospel with them, that they might be set free and reborn by the grace of God through the Lord Jesus Christ. Without the Truth, we know what fate awaits them.

Romans 6:21
What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

Romans 6:23a
For the wages of sin is death,

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

But how deeply and sharply do we feel the impact of such an essentially abstract concept? The afterlife – whether in Heaven or Hell – is a far-off time and place and not part of our everyday world. It hardly seems to apply in a practical sense when we are waiting for a bus or working at our place of employment or having lunch with a friend or relative. Our minds tend to be on other things, other issues, other concerns. Practical concerns of everyday life.

Many Christians need to reexamine how they see the unbeliever, and realize the infinitely serious consequences of not sharing the gospel with such a person. Once they feel the emotional impact that is carried with this seriousness, they will not only desire to share their faith, but they will also care enough to be prepared for that moment. One must be equipped with the Truth in order to share it with someone else. And one must also know how to share that Truth effectively, and at the right time.

How much have you really thought about the consequences of Mary’s silence? Of your silence? In order for Christians to experience real motivation to preach the Good News, we must first understand the Bad News.

The Bad News is that people are dying out there. The vast majority of people in the world don’t know Christ, and they are dying off at a terrific rate, often without any warning. Every second of every hour of every day, people are going to Hell. This is a fundamentally unpleasant thought, which probably accounts for part of the reason we tend to think about it as little as possible. We don’t want to think about co-worker Phil existing in eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, do we? We want to make sure he gets our memo. We want to swap family stories at the water cooler. We don’t want to think about cousin Stacey burning in Hell. We want to think about seeing her at the next family reunion, or writing her an e-mail to ask how things are going with her live-in boyfriend. And nine times out of ten, we don’t want anything at all to do with that stranger at the bus stop or sitting two seats away in the movie theater as we wait for the film to start. We’d rather sit and twiddle our thumbs than say hello and talk about anything with a stranger. All this despite the fact that, as Christians, we know the consequences for a person not knowing Jesus Christ. Indeed, a person cannot become born again without understanding that. So, how do we shake up our routine way of thinking? How do we change the way we look at an unbeliever? Allow me to use a much more earthly analogy.

Imagine quietly sitting near a person– a co-worker, a stranger, a friend or family member. And as you look at them, you somehow know something terrible about their future. You know that a group of terrorists are going to kidnap this person and many others, take them hostage for twelve months.

This terrorist group’s style is to abduct people and keep them locked up and hidden for a year. And during that year, they torture this victim … every day … to degrees beyond the comprehension of most. They even go so far as to provide medical assistance to the victim in the form of blood transfusions, wound cauterization and antibiotics to keep the victim alive and awake, so the victim will experience the full extent of the torture… every single day for a year. Excruciating pain, using implements of torture inspired by some of the horrors of the Dark Ages. Torture both physical and psychological as they extensively mutilate the victim, leaving very permanent signs of the torture on the victim’s body. It is not uncommon for them in the last part of the year to systematically remove limbs. In the last few weeks of the abduction, the person is finally blinded, permanently deafened, has their tongue cut out, their nasal passages burned with acid. Each of these applications is designed to permanently remove one of the victim’s five senses. Finally, a nerve agent is administered which forever takes away the victim’s ability to experience tactile sensation. No more sense of touch. In the end, the abductee is completely cut off from the physical world, consigned to a living hell of permanent oblivion. They are finally dumped in a public place, left for someone to find.

You look at this person, and you know all of this is going to happen. Maybe tonight, maybe a month from now, maybe 10 months from now. But it will happen, when they least expect it. Furthermore, you have information that can prevent this from ever happening to this person. With this information, the person can definitely avoid ever being captured and tortured by these evil fanatics.

Now, here’s a really stupid question. Do you tell them? Can you even imagine yourself not telling them? In your imagination, put yourself in that situation. How many milliseconds would go by before you started warning them of what’s to come, and telling them how they can definitely avoid it? Would you be worried about this person thinking you’re weird or annoying? Would you be restricted by shyness? Would you tell yourself that it’s none of your business, that this person’s fate isn’t for you to worry about, so you should just keep quiet? How ridiculous do those ideas now seem?

And yet, when we are talking about a person’s eternal fate after this earthly life, we are talking about something infinitely more serious than this terrorist analogy. A person thrown in the Lake of Fire will experience spiritual torment a million times that of a victim of those terrorists and their mere physical torture. And rather than spending a year in such agony, their fate will continue without hope and without end for all eternity. A billion years from now, they will still be suffering.

Now, let’s not lose sight of some other very important facts that aren’t part of that terrorist analogy. The terrorists’ victim doesn’t deserve their horrible fate. But someone who is lost and dead to Christ deserves the eternal fate toward which they are headed. There are no two ways about it. A sinner deserves to go to Hell. A saint does not. Who condemns the sinner?

Romans 8:34a
Who is He who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen,

And what consequence will Christ impart on those who do not accept Him?

Matthew 13:40-42
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

But this is where the Good News comes in.

The Good News is that God loves us so much that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us, so that we wouldn’t have to pay the ultimate price, ourselves. No matter what we did in our past, no matter how great and terrible our sin, His death was enough to pay for it, and His resurrection conquered death for all who believe. As one of my favorite bands, ApologetiX, once said, “You could be workin’ on a burglary or sittin’ in a nunnery,” but one thing is for sure. You need the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ or you will suffer that eternal fate in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus is the Truth. If they do not know and accept the Truth, then the Truth will *not* set them free. It will condemn them to an eternity of torment. That is Bad News for an unbeliever. You cannot separate the Bad News from the Good News. Without knowing the Bad News, they cannot understand the meaning of the Good News. If they aren't condemned to eternal death, why do they need a savior to grant them eternal life? When telling the Good News to an unbeliever, you must also share with them the Bad News.

The Bad News is the reason we must feel powerfully compelled to share the Good News with anyone we can. Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 6:2, “behold, now is the day of salvation.” Not tomorrow or next week, but today! And when you find yourself at that moment of truth, faced with an unbeliever heading toward that terrible fate, will you be ready? Will you know the gospel they need to hear? Will you know what to tell them? How to tell them? How to share your faith effectively? Are you equipped with the truth of God’s word? It isn’t enough to just be willing to tell them. If you don’t know what to tell them and how to convey it, you’ll just be wasting your time. Do you want to be unprepared when you’re faced with that potential terrorist’s victim?

Of course some people like to avoid the issue with any number of excuses. Two such excuses stand out in particular.

"I won't evangelize to this person because, well, they're American, they're kind of good, they might just be a Christian. I'll take the chance.”

This is essentially playing Russian roulette with someone’s eternal life. How many bullets are in the chamber? One… or five? Unfortunately, today the situation in America is more like a chamber with five bullets than one. Most people who label themselves as Christian… aren’t.

“I won’t evangelize to this person because I’m sure some other Christian will witness to them down the road. Someone else will step up to the plate and bring the truth of God’s word to this sinner.”

This is almost like playing Russian roulette with a revolver. Not only are most people in this sinner’s life not Christians, but what are the odds that one of the rare Christians this person meets will witness to him or her? The Body of Christ is in pathetic condition today. Moral relativism and, yes, even paganism are infiltrating churches to an unprecedented degree. And pressures of political correctness are growing in our culture, threatening social and even legal reprisals for those who share the gospel. Few Christians can even defend their faith when confronted on it, much less are willing to go forth and share it with others. To assume someone else will “step up to the plate” and share the Good News (and the Bad News) with this sinner is like expecting to beat the house in a corrupt casino. We live in a world that is a highly organized system of evil at war with God. If you think you can rely on anyone else to witness to this sinner, you have another thing coming to you. You may be the only person who ever shares the truth of the gospel with this unbeliever. Or you may be the only person who will share the gospel with them in a way that will open their ears, their mind, their heart. What happens when you coldly walk by this person, as those men did in the story of the Good Samaritan?

Some people think choosing to withhold the Good News from someone is an act of apathy. But I would submit to you that for someone to remain silent as they callously watch someone step off that cliff into the hellish abyss… this is not an act of apathy, but arguably an act of hate!

Imagine not sharing the Truth with someone who needs it. Imagine that person dying the next day. Past the point of no return. Gone to a place from which there is no return. Would you be able to live with yourself?

Not only did Mary let an opportunity pass her by; she wasted hundreds of chances to help her friend see the light. She believed she had plenty of time. But really, she had no time at all. No, Mary isn’t personally responsible for her friend’s fate. But she will forever regret her terrible act of omission, her failure to just take the time to share the Truth with her friend. Don’t experience Mary’s heartbreak and regret. Remind yourself of the Bad News… so you won’t forget why it’s so important to share the Good News!


2 Timothy 4:1-2
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

Did you find this article useful? Here’s some info about GODISNOWHERE:

We are a street evangelism and apologetics ministry whose primary mission is equipping the saints with the ability to effectively witness and evangelize in everyday life. Based out of Denver, we began taking God’s truth to the street about seven years ago, across eastern Colorado.

We set up our 10’x10’ tent at fairs, festivals and college campuses with no outward sign that we are a Christian organization. People only see our name (intentionally ambiguous) and a table with books of religions from all over the world, including Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Wicca, Satanism, Hinduism, and many philosophies including atheism/humanism. They see signs that say things like, “There is no truth – Is that true?” and, “Truth is unknowable – How do you know?” The observer has no way of knowing what we stand for, thus we begin as a blank slate to them. This affords us the opportunity to begin an open dialogue with many people who would never knowingly set foot in a Christian tent.

We challenge people to defend what they believe, regardless of what that is, and we invite them to challenge us back. Sometimes, we will not reveal we are Christian for five minutes, ten, thirty, forty-five minutes into a discussion. Sometimes, we will play the role of atheist, pagan or something else. But we always bring it around to the absolute Truth of Jesus Christ. And we challenge Christians hardest of all. Sadly, the vast majority of Christians can’t defend their way out of a wet paper bag… and that is exactly why we exist. To challenge them to be able to defend their faith!

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

In 2002, GODISNOWHERE’s mission expanded in a new direction. We now provide a free seminar on basic apologetics to Colorado churches and college Christian student clubs. Whether we come for a two hour class or once a week for a month, we teach a style of apologetics that is, above all else, applicable in everyday life. We will use anything from classical arguments to evidentialism to presuppositionalism. While some apologetics authorities and organizations get caught up in the intellectual and scholastic pursuit of apologetics studies that one would use in a formal debate, we are more concerned with effective, solidly-based solutions for real life situations. And perhaps the most unique thing we have to offer is that after someone attends a seminar/class, they can put what they’ve learned into action alongside our ministry team, in our tent on the streets of Denver. In the trenches, contending with real people from all walks of life and every belief system imaginable!

We reject “lifestyle evangelism.” We reject blind faith in favor of a reasoned faith, based on evidence, logic and reason. We believe the greatest threat to the Body of Christ today is not from without but from within – the insidious enemy of postmodernism and relativism in our churches and members. It is in every denomination, in every city. It is worldly, it is evil, and it is highly organized.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. You cannot know God if you do not know the Truth.

Are you a truth seeker?


GODISNOWHERE
“A ministry of truth and challenge”
http://GODISNOWHERE.org
jim@godisnowhere.org
(303) 758-7584

TheologyWeb is pleased to have GODISNOWHERE members Jim Schofield (RightIdea) and Adam Briggs (TruthMan) as regular participants at this forum, and the entire TWeb leadership thanks them in abundance for choosing TheologyWeb's Theology Wing as the forum to be directly linked from their website.

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bar Jonah
April 10th 2003, 07:41 PM
Please let me know what y'all think of the article! Thanks muchly!


St. Jim
"My soul was saved by a body piercing"

Gavin
April 10th 2003, 09:55 PM
That was a very powerful article, Jim. I am personally convicted by the reminder that people are going to hell.

Vorkosigan
April 11th 2003, 06:39 PM
[i]Today @ 12:41 AM
Please let me know what y'all think of the article! Thanks muchly!


It was sick and filthy. It is terrifying that anyone could hold such hopelessly anti-human, nihilistic and hate-filled beliefs.

Vorkosigan

dizzle
April 11th 2003, 06:44 PM
Well I loved it. Great job Jim :thumb:

yxboom
April 11th 2003, 07:09 PM
Today @ 03:39 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63408#post63408)
Vorkosigan:

It was sick and filthy. It is terrifying that anyone could hold such hopelessly anti-human, nihilistic and hate-filled beliefs.

Vorkosigan

Only on TheologyWeb :thumb:

dizzle
April 11th 2003, 07:11 PM
Tell all your friends!!

bar Jonah
April 11th 2003, 08:36 PM
Today @ 04:39 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63408#post63408)
Vorkosigan:



It was sick and filthy. It is terrifying that anyone could hold such hopelessly anti-human, nihilistic and hate-filled beliefs.

Vorkosigan
So, even assuming Christianity is false... if I truly believe someone is headed toward a precipice of death, how can you consider my desperate plea to them as an act of hate? Even if Jesus was nothing more than a "nice guy" and we're all fools... how could you possibly respect any Christian who doesn't sincerely seek to offer what he or she believes to be a life-saving truth to someone they perceive to be in danger?

Even back when I was a witch, if a Christian friend had an opportunity to witness to me and he didn't...? I took it as a great insult, and I told them so. I knew that even assuming Christianity is false, if they didn't witness to me, THAT is what I construed as an act of apathy (at the very least!)

Vorkosigan
April 12th 2003, 03:05 AM
So, even assuming Christianity is false... if I truly believe someone is headed toward a precipice of death, how can you consider my desperate plea to them as an act of hate? ?

It is a sick act of hatred that regards all other philosophies, beliefs, thoughts, behaviors, and systems of myth and religion as "evils" from which their holders must be "saved." Christians begin by, in the name of "love" -- which is actually will-to-power -- dehumanizing their individuality and denigrating their thinking, and end, of course, by putting them to the sword as infidels and ingrates when they inexplicably won't change their minds.

Fundamentally, what you see as "love" others experience as nothing more than the authoritarian urge to make all others conform to your way of thinking.

how could you possibly respect any Christian who doesn't sincerely seek to offer what he or she believes to be a life-saving truth to someone they perceive to be in danger

Because Christianity is "an offer that can't be refused." And because the real life-saver is not an authoritarian system of eschatological yearning and moral nihilism, but systems of thought that embrace diversity, tolerance, respect for life, environmentalism, freedom of thought and behavior, and other things anathema to Christian thinking.

Explanation enough for you?

Vorkosigan

bar Jonah
April 12th 2003, 01:39 PM
Today @ 01:05 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63800#post63800)
Vorkosigan:

It is a sick act of hatred that regards all other philosophies, beliefs, thoughts, behaviors, and systems of myth and religion as "evils" from which their holders must be "saved." Christians begin by, in the name of "love" -- which is actually will-to-power -- dehumanizing their individuality and denigrating their thinking, and end, of course, by putting them to the sword as infidels and ingrates when they inexplicably won't change their minds.

Fundamentally, what you see as "love" others experience as nothing more than the authoritarian urge to make all others conform to your way of thinking.

Because Christianity is "an offer that can't be refused." And because the real life-saver is not an authoritarian system of eschatological yearning and moral nihilism, but systems of thought that embrace diversity, tolerance, respect for life, environmentalism, freedom of thought and behavior, and other things anathema to Christian thinking.

Explanation enough for you?

Vorkosigan
Vorkosigan, be careful... your hatred and narrow-mindedness and spite are showing. You seem to be fallaciously confusing Christianity with the Catholic Church or various evil dictators who have used Christianity as a false front. If you were to read the Bible (there's a thought), you would see that it teaches us that today, we are are not fighting a war of the flesh but of the spirit. No Christian should put someone to death because of their faith! Period! Not individually, and not at a corporate (organizational or national) level.

The Bible is the real standard of Christianity, regardless of what ignorant, misled followers and pseudo-Christian dictators may do. If you can show me in scripture that we are today supposed to take the sword to the infidel (as in Islam), I would sure love to see it.

On the contrary, look at the early church and how they lived based on the much more immediate teaching of those who wrote the New Testament. All but one of the Twelve were tortured to death in horrific ways, whether crushed or boiled alive or crucified, or other manners of inhuman forms of oppression. And what was the response of Christians? They turned the other cheek.

Vorkosigan
April 12th 2003, 06:21 PM
Vorkosigan, be careful... your hatred and narrow-mindedness and spite are showing. You seem to be fallaciously confusing Christianity with the Catholic Church or various evil dictators who have used Christianity as a false front.

No, I look at the behavior of Christians in the real world. And it seems that whatever the denomination, Christianity cannot tolerate the existence of ideas different from its own, including those of other Christianities. It is this drive to stamp out all competing ideas, along with the propensity for violence, that makes it so terrifying to believers in other forms of thought.

If you were to read the Bible (there's a thought),

My friend, I guarantee you that not only have I read it from cover to cover, but I am sure that I have read and understood it at least as well as you, if not better. In fact, I read sections of it almost every day. Along with the relevant scholarship.

you would see that it teaches us that today, we are are not fighting a war of the flesh but of the spirit. No Christian should put someone to death because of their faith! Period! Not individually, and not at a corporate (organizational or national) level.

Whatever you believe, there is another Christian who thinks differently. A number of Bible verses can support putting unbelievers to death, depending on how you interpret them. Doesn't the very use of the word "war" signal what is really going on?

The Bible is the real standard of Christianity, regardless of what ignorant, misled followers and pseudo-Christian dictators may do. If you can show me in scripture that we are today supposed to take the sword to the infidel (as in Islam), I would sure love to see it.

Unfortunately the Bible is NOT the standard of Christianity. Christianity consists of numerous standards, beliefs, and interpretation stances that are not Biblical in nature. Further, its organization as an authority belief like Communism, Islam, or Facism has consequences as well.

the contrary, look at the early church and how they lived based on the much more immediate teaching of those who wrote the New Testament. All but one of the Twelve were tortured to death in horrific ways, whether crushed or boiled alive or crucified, or other manners of inhuman forms of oppression.

Speaking of reading, which you admonished me to do, perhaps that is something you should think about. As any serious historian could tell you, there is no credible evidence that suggests that any of the Twelve (whose existence is not exactly well-demonstrated historically) was ever martyred; the stories we have are contradictory and unreliable (including those about just who and how many were Jesus' original disciples). In fact, as reading some history would tell you, Christians were a fractious lot who fought amongst themselves, just like today. The vast majority of murdered Christians, throughout history, have been murdered by fellow Christians.

d what was the response of Christians? They turned the other cheek.

No, they bided their time until they had political power, and then banned all other beliefs, burnt their books and murdered their adherents. See the development of Christianity from Constantine to Theodosius. And thence to today. Looking at this long history of infighting, domination, and destruction of other ways of thought, why do you think so many live in fear of your religion?

You admonish me to read, and then spout mythical nonsense at me. Tsk-tsk.

Vorkosigan

Sher
April 13th 2003, 02:03 AM
Great Job Jim :smile:

Sounds like you are already convicting others to take notice. :thumb:

Socrates
April 13th 2003, 04:38 AM
Vorkosigan:It is a sick act of hatred that regards all other philosophies, beliefs, thoughts, behaviors, and systems of myth and religion as "evils" from which their holders must be "saved." This begs the question. Of course, IF Jesus was speaking the truth when he said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6), THEN indeed these other systems ARE false. Therefore it is the most loving thing in the world to inform people of this.

And it would be a "sick act of hatred" to think that these other systems are true. Naturally Vork has not shown that Jesus was speaking falsely -- we are just supposed to take his word for it. And Jesus proved His credentials by rising from the dead on the third day, leaving the tomb empty, and appearing to 500 people at once. Of course, if Vork could produce the body of Christ, then he might be worth listening to ... :bonk:

Vorkosigan
April 13th 2003, 07:52 AM
And it would be a "sick act of hatred" to think that these other systems are true. Naturally Vork has not shown that Jesus was speaking falsely -- we are just supposed to take his word for it.

I don't have to "prove" anything. The burden of proof is on you to show which words the historical Jesus actually said from among the many attributed to them, and which of these have turned out to true. Of course, to do that, you'd need what no one has managed to provide yet: a methodology that can sift fact from fiction in the gospels about Jesus.

Vorkosigan

Believer
April 13th 2003, 08:55 PM
Vorkosigan, my friend, what is it that troubles you so much about our beliefs? Where do these ideals of hate come from? You accuse Christians of such evil crimes because of the fools that have committed atrocities in the past, you blame us and our beliefs because of power thirsty criminals. Does this seem right to you? Why do you judge us? I know you will say that we judge you, which isn't (or atleast shouldn't) be true. We are merely telling you what we believe is true in hopes that you will come into the light as we did. Where do you see evil intentions in that? Please enlighten me.

dizzle
April 14th 2003, 07:56 AM
I hate gravity!!!

It is an evil thing that causes many people to go splat on the ground. It is also very intolerant and rigid. Doesn't it know that we live in a pluralistic society in which some people believe they can fly? How can gravity be so hateful and bigoted towards those people? I refuse to believe in it.

lordsnooty
April 14th 2003, 08:34 AM
Wow. Someone should have informed Mary that hell doesn't exist. It might have spared her some upset.

It amazes me that you can worship God, even though you claim he will send decent people to hell. What kind of people are you? Seriously? If you're compliant in his crimes, what does that make you?

Paul

LilPunkishOfTerror
April 14th 2003, 08:45 AM
Today @ 01:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=65984#post65984)
lordsnooty:

Wow. Someone should have informed Mary that hell doesn't exist. It might have spared her some upset.

It amazes me that you can worship God, even though you claim he will send decent people to hell. What kind of people are you? Seriously? If you're compliant in his crimes, what does that make you?

Paul

Oh yeah, God sends decent people to hell, hey Paul where did you pick that one up from? Yeah like God bows to our understanding of decent! :bow: :lol:

Seriously, I'd love to know where you get this "decent" thing from, because it sounds like you've got a bee in your bonnet. We worship God because He is righteous. This definition also excludes any crimes - He doesn't commit crimes! What are you on about huh??!!

Guy

dizzle
April 14th 2003, 10:10 AM
And of course Snooty's comments are a whole distraction from the point of the article to begin with.

bar Jonah
April 14th 2003, 11:23 AM
Today @ 08:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=66028#post66028)
Dee Dee Warren:

And of course Snooty's comments are a whole distraction from the point of the article to begin with.
Well, I honestly don't know about that... It seems to me that much of what he's saying does relate and respond to the article. Obviously, I believe his conclusions are entirely wrong, but in his defense, I do think he's addressing the article in a way.

dizzle
April 14th 2003, 11:28 AM
As that author, you for sure would know, and I would not presume to argue with you on that point.

Vorkosigan
April 14th 2003, 11:29 AM
Vorkosigan, my friend, what is it that troubles you so much about our beliefs? Where do these ideals of hate come from?

These ideals of hate are built into a religion in which judgment plays such a powerful role, and which condemns all other forms of thought through all eternity.

You accuse Christians of such evil crimes because of the fools that have committed atrocities in the past, you blame us and our beliefs because of power thirsty criminals. Does this seem right to you?

Obviously it sems right to me, or I wouldn't do it!

Why do you judge us?

I do not "judge" you in the sense you mean. It is not judgment to reference history as well as sentiments contained in the OP, and then point out the consequences of such behaviors and beliefs, as others experience them.

We are merely telling you what we believe is true in hopes that you will come into the light as we did. Where do you see evil intentions in that? Please enlighten me.

I think I have already amply communicated why it is intolerant, hateful and evil to regard all other beliefs as only worthy of condemnation and eventual elimination. I do not think your personal intentions as such are evil. Rather, what you experience as a positive personal intention and "light" others experience as will-to-power and evil. The problems are inherent in the nature of missionary work, the attitude of Christianity toward other forms of thought, and in the structure of Christianity, especially right-wing Christianity, as an authority belief, and not in the personal attitudes of individual Christians, many of whom are quite laudable. Of course, many Communists too felt that they were doing a good thing for the world....

Vorkosigan

bar Jonah
April 14th 2003, 11:30 AM
Today @ 09:28 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=66147#post66147)
Dee Dee Warren:

As that author, you for sure would know, and I would not presume to argue with you on that point.
Just because he's completely wrong doesn't mean he can't contribute to the discussion. LOL He is discussing the inherent values regarding telling others about what we believe to be the "good news." (And the "bad news," for that matter.) Seems to me that's on topic.

bar Jonah
April 14th 2003, 11:47 AM
Today @ 09:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=66151#post66151)
Vorkosigan:
I think I have already amply communicated why it is intolerant, hateful and evil to regard all other beliefs as only worthy of condemnation and eventual elimination. I do not think your personal intentions as such are evil. Rather, what you experience as a positive personal intention and "light" others experience as will-to-power and evil. The problems are inherent in the nature of missionary work, the attitude of Christianity toward other forms of thought, and in the structure of Christianity, especially right-wing Christianity, as an authority belief, and not in the personal attitudes of individual Christians, many of whom are quite laudable. Of course, many Communists too felt that they were doing a good thing for the world....

Vorkosigan
But Vork, you are beginning with your conclusion and working backward. Completely illogical. Your presuppositions are showing. Not to mention you're applying a different standard to yourself regarding judgement, which makes you hypocritical.

IF what we speak is the truth, then we are not being judgemental in communicating what is simply the truth. Here is an analogy that I frequently use in my ministry's tent. It's not an analogy concerning salvation, but rather it concerns whether a person is judgemental for communicating a truth... based on their own personal wisdom or judgement, or otherwise.

Your father is sick. You take him to the hospital. They determine that he needs to have surgery and may not live. You go home. Your mother asks how your father is. You tell her, "He needs surgery, and even then, he might not live."

Is your mother going to look at you and say, "Who the heck do you think you are? You're not a doctor. You think you can diagnose him and know that he needs surgery? What arrogance!"

Of course not! That would be absurd! By whose authority are you telling your mother these things? Not your own, and not that of some other person off the street. No, you were told by someone in authority.

And we believe the same is true in our case. If we are mistaken, then we are mistaken. But believe me, I don't enjoy telling anyone "the bad news." If it were up to my personal preferences and limited human wisdom, I would NOT have designed a religion like Christianity, believe me. Christianity goes against my presuppositions just as it goes against yours, too. Much of it isn't exactly what I would have designed it to be if I'd been in charge of the truth. But even back when I was a practicing witch, the evidence persuaded me otherwise. And if a witch can be persuaded by the overwhelming evidence for the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ ... then surely it is at least worth investigating.

lordsnooty
April 14th 2003, 01:51 PM
Today @ 01:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=65988#post65988)
ghbearman:
Oh yeah, God sends decent people to hell, hey Paul where did you pick that one up from? Yeah like God bows to our understanding of decent! :bow: :lol:

So you don't mind that people you like - people that are kind and honest, and people that do not conform to your understanding of evil in any way - are supposedly being sent into a pit of fire to be tortured for all of eternity because they were unable to accept your interpretation of scripture?

You think that's good, because God says so?

Seriously, I'd love to know where you get this "decent" thing from, because it sounds like you've got a bee in your bonnet. We worship God because He is righteous.

Eternal torture can never be seen as righteous. If we assume that your myths are true, and God enforces this punishment on non believers - or people of any kind - then he is a monster and a tyrant, and in worshipping him you are no better than Nazi officers at concentration camps.

The belief that 'evil is righteous' is disturbing and possibly indicative of mental derrangement.

Paul

$cirisme
April 14th 2003, 01:55 PM
There's a difference between torment and torture.

I believe the flames are symbolic of the separation from Christ. :duh:

yxboom
April 14th 2003, 01:57 PM
It is not literal fire :hrm:

lordsnooty
April 14th 2003, 02:07 PM
Today @ 04:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=66187#post66187)
RightIdea:
But believe me, I don't enjoy telling anyone "the bad news." If it were up to my personal preferences and limited human wisdom, I would NOT have designed a religion like Christianity, believe me. Christianity goes against my presuppositions just as it goes against yours, too. Much of it isn't exactly what I would have designed it to be if I'd been in charge of the truth.

That's quite an admission. I find myself in the peculiar position of respecting something Right Idea has said... must.. disrespect....gnn!

But even back when I was a practicing witch, the evidence persuaded me otherwise. And if a witch can be persuaded by the overwhelming evidence for the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ ... then surely it is at least worth investigating.

Well, being a witch gives you leanings towards the supernatural to begin with. Modern day witchcraft is very much influenced by Christianity anyway, even if it's not immediately obvious. The 'problem' with atheists is that they cannot accept the supernatural when there is a better explanation to be had - and science has, thus far, consistently found better explanations for all events previously thought to be supernatural.

But if God loves us, and wants to give us the remotest shred of evidence that the bible is true - I'm listening.

Paul

lordsnooty
April 14th 2003, 02:11 PM
Today @ 06:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=66377#post66377)
yxboom:

It is not literal fire :hrm:

Oh, right. That's one of those things where you choose to believe that the Bible isn't being literal, for some reason?

I've spoken to many, many Christians that believe it is literal.

What is the Christian definition of 'torment' then?

Paul

bar Jonah
April 14th 2003, 05:04 PM
Today @ 12:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=66410#post66410)
lordsnooty:



Oh, right. That's one of those things where you choose to believe that the Bible isn't being literal, for some reason?

I've spoken to many, many Christians that believe it is literal.

What is the Christian definition of 'torment' then?

Paul
NOW you're getting off topic, shipmate. LOL And as the creator of this "thread," I would ask that you make your own thread to discuss that. :thumb:

AVmetro
April 14th 2003, 07:15 PM
My friend, I guarantee you that not only have I read it from cover to cover, but I am sure that I have read and understood it at least as well as you, if not better. In fact, I read sections of it almost every day. Along with the relevant scholarship.

2Ti 3:7 - "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

And I can assure you that others have read it from cover to cover and have understood it better than you. Every day. Along with the relevant scholarship. And these people are Christians today. Many having been converted from atheism.

I hate gravity!!!

It is an evil thing that causes many people to go splat on the ground. It is also very intolerant and rigid. Doesn't it know that we live in a pluralistic society in which some people believe they can fly? How can gravity be so hateful and bigoted towards those people? I refuse to believe in it.

Good point.

dizzle
April 14th 2003, 07:24 PM
Thank you AV!!

Vorkosigan
April 15th 2003, 08:52 AM
double

Vorkosigan
April 15th 2003, 08:53 AM
2Ti 3:7 - "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

There's something extremely apropo about using an example from a letter forged in Paul's name.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan
April 15th 2003, 09:04 AM
IF what we speak is the truth, then we are not being judgemental in communicating what is simply the truth.

Yes, but that has to be demonstrated, not claimed. If we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some eggs.

Of course not! That would be absurd! By whose authority are you telling your mother these things? Not your own, and not that of some other person off the street. No, you were told by someone in authority.

Quite true...so far....

And we believe the same is true in our case.

But here's where you go wrong. You're confusing two different senses of the word "authority." The "authority" of the doctor lies in her expertise. Additionally, the doctor's "authority" is based on empirically verifiable evidence that anyone, with sufficient preparation, can master and verify for themselves.

The authority of the Bible, however, is simply a claim assumed by its followers, and has no empirical testability whatsoever. The two kinds of authority could not be more different. One is vested in five hundred years of empirical research, the other in simple rhetorical aggrandizement: "I'm right! Listen to me!"

If we are mistaken, then we are mistaken. But believe me, I don't enjoy telling anyone "the bad news.

I've been listening to the bad news for a lifetime, and my own perception is that many enjoy giving this bad news. Bruce Bawer discussed this problem at length in Stealing Jesus, about the fundamentalist insistence on hell and punishment rather than love, and the relish with which so many preach this. One only needs to examine the inhuman Left Behind series, where believers are invited to revel in death on a global scale, to see this dynamic at work.

" If it were up to my personal preferences and limited human wisdom, I would NOT have designed a religion like Christianity, believe me. Christianity goes against my presuppositions just as it goes against yours, too. Much of it isn't exactly what I would have designed it to be if I'd been in charge of the truth. But even back when I was a practicing witch, the evidence persuaded me otherwise. And if a witch can be persuaded by the overwhelming evidence for the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ ... then surely it is at least worth investigating.

<shrug> I hear the same stuff all the time from my Ba'hai, Buddhist or Hindu friends, or my friends who follow various gurus like Sai Baba. "Once I heard the message of X, nothing was ever the same for me" which demonstrates that transformative experiences are....well....transformative.

Vorkosigan

djdavo
May 12th 2003, 11:11 PM
interesting article,but you're preaching to the converted here :)


Vorkosigan: man, what chistian in your life stepped on your head? it had to be a parent, right? i've had it happen,too: i've been horribly betrayed by christians.
the one thing i've learned is that people are....well, people. we're ALL human regardless of our beliefs. this is about eternity,not about what a few people do to us down here on earth.
i'm sure you can do studies of the historicity of the bible,and it's as believable as the existence of alexander the great. but i highly doubt your hatred is because of lack of proof of the bible....
i'm also sure you don't really believe christians were just 'biding their time' while they were being tortured for 300 years.


if you have any belief in God you must know it's only logical to believe He knows more than we do,and he does have an ultimate standard to live by that is not subject to our liking or disliking it.

just think about yourself: i bet there are some things that are 'just wrong' in your book- as a for instance raping children for fun is wrong. now there are those pedophiles that say it isn't wrong. does that make it OK? or is it still wrong regardless of their beliefs?

now how much infinitely MORE does God know than us? If God says something is wrong, or this is how to live, or this is how to get to heaven, than how do we reject that in spite of the evidence?

djdavo
May 12th 2003, 11:23 PM
04-15-2003 @ 01:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=67407#post67407)
Vorkosigan:

2Ti 3:7 - &quot;Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.&quot;

There's something extremely apropo about using an example from a letter forged in Paul's name.

Vorkosigan


for being a sceptic you seem quite sure in your faith that it's a forged letter because of (what i presume to be) poor research from some group like the Jesus seminar.