Demons! Arrgh! *gnashing of teeth*

[AtheistArchon]

- There's a thread in theology 102 that highlights whether or not demons are a factor in things like clinical psychosis and schizophrenia. The OP has asked that nonbelievers abstain from responding in that thread (and I understand that request, since nonbelievers generally do not believe in demons in the first place and thus have little to add), and so I thought I'd start a new one here for us to bat about.

- Demons. Do you believe in them? Are they something you can see? Have you ever experienced one? Can they possess people? What do they do... what is their purpose, and who or what controls them? How do you know if someone is under the influence of a demon?

[AtheistArchon]

- By the way, ignore my horns and cloven feet for the time being. :cool:

[Zakath]

Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
Nothing.
Ask Freak. He hs publicly stated that I am demon possessed! :lol:

[Solly]

Today @ 05:40 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62645#post62645)
AtheistArchon:

AA: Demons. Do you believe in them?

--Yes

Are they something you can see?

--Not usually.

Have you ever experienced one?

--Yes, I think so; malevolently once, influencing several times.

Can they possess people?

--Probably, but not nec in the way Freak thinks. That's a bit of an obvious way to do it, don't you think? These guys are fifth columnists, and experts at wool pulling. If it was a simple matter of a guy standing up and saying "I bind you in Jesus' name" then the war would have been over long ago.

What do they do... what is their purpose,

--Generally, they are malevolent spiritual powers that oppose the work of God - that's what they do. Deception and inducement are their main tasks - that is their purpose in the scheme of things.

and who or what controls them?

--They are ostensibly under the "control" of the satan, the "devil"; ultimately, they are pawns in God's great plans.

How do you know if someone is under the influence of a demon?

--For unbelievers, they are all under the influence: 2 Cor 4: the god of this world hath blinded the minds, etc; unbelievers are enslaved to various "idols" internal or external: money, lusts, greed, anger, hatred, pride, etc. For Christians, they seek to undermine the work of God, and provide "combat situations" to keep us on our toes, in the areas of obedience, faith, and purity, usually by appealing to the aforesaid idols from which we have been released, but which still have their appeal.

And yes, you'll just have to take my word for it. If you were a Christian, you would know these things by experience.

[AtheistArchon]

For unbelievers, they are all under the influence:

- Grrrr! *chomp, chomp*

- Oh, excuse me. :teeth:


unbelievers are enslaved to various "idols" internal or external: money, lusts, greed, anger, hatred, pride, etc.

- Wow. Do you really believe this, or are you just quoting the bible?

- And these "idols" are actually invisible demons that have made us atheists?


And yes, you'll just have to take my word for it. If you were a Christian, you would know these things by experience.

- What kind of experience do you have with demons? Do all Christians have this experience?

[Zakath]

So Solly, we'll have to "take your word for it" that the entire non-Christian population of the planet is operating under the influence of invisible inimical alien beings from another dimension?:lol:

:rant: What about Jews who make the similar claims for Christians?

:rant: What about old-school Roman Catholics who make the similar claims for non-Catholics?

:rant: What about Baptists who make the similar claims for Roman Catholics?

:rant: What about the independent Christians who make similar claims about anyone affiliated with a Christian denomination?

That doesn't even count the other non-Christian religions and their opinions of Christians... :hrm:

With all these conflicting claims to deal with, it's going to be a bit difficult for this atheist to swallow your line without some sort of empircal evidence to back it up. :huh:

[lordsnooty]

[i]Today @ 03:07 PM
And yes, you'll just have to take my word for it. If you were a Christian, you would know these things by experience.

What experience do you have of demons?

Paul

[Solly]

[QUOTE]Today @ 03:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62902#post62902)
AtheistArchon:
Grrrr! *chomp, chomp* - Oh, excuse me. :teeth:

--I knew you wouldn't understand. Who said anything about frothing at the mouth. We are not talking about The Exorcist or The Omen.

Wow. Do you really believe this, or are you just quoting the bible?

--I believe I quoted the bible once, yes. However, why is it a problem believing it? did you see my last comment?

And these "idols" are actually invisible demons that have made us atheists?

--Gee, it's so difficult with you people. "Idols" are what yoiu hold dear, before and in place of God. You made yourself an atheist; you were already a sinner in rebellion against God. The "demons" merely enforce that fact in various ways. That is partly why the power of God for salvation is described in the same terms as the power he used in raising Jesus from the dead. Demonic power is notable in its influence on the desires and motivations that operate the will.

What kind of experience do you have with demons? Do all Christians have this experience?

--Ask them. I can't speak for everyone who considers them selves Christians.

[Solly]

Today @ 03:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62903#post62903)
Zakath:

So Solly, we'll have to "take your word for it" that the entire non-Christian population of the planet is operating under the influence of invisible inimical alien beings from another dimension?:lol:

--No, you can take God's word for it, as you well know Zakath, having been a Christian. I was speaking of the answers I gave, which obviously I gave as a Christians, and which obviously speak of invisible beings who are not usually susceptible to scientific analysis.

What about Jews who make the similar claims for Christians?
What about old-school Roman Catholics who make the similar claims for non-Catholics?
What about Baptists who make the similar claims for Roman Catholics?
What about the independent Christians who make similar claims about anyone affiliated with a Christian denomination?
That doesn't even count the other non-Christian religions and their opinions of Christians... :hrm:

--What say they? let them say.
And America calls Saddam a tyrant, and he calls Bush a tyrant. So what?
I am a Baptist, and I make no such claims in the way you have posited it. All people, even Christians are influenced by "demons"; the difference is that Christians have been given defenses against them; that doesn't mean they won't make decisions based on those influences: esp greed, anger, lust for power, in the case of Chjurch authorities and denominations.


With all these conflicting claims to deal with, it's going to be a bit difficult for this atheist to swallow your line without some sort of empirical evidence to back it up. :huh:

--I wouldn't doubt it. having been an atheist, I would say the same thing in your shoes. My emprical evidence is the work of God in my life. I found that very convincing. You may have read Bunyan's Grace Abounding in your church days.

[Solly]

Today @ 03:24 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62904#post62904)
lordsnooty:



What experience do you have of demons?

Paul


Deception and inducement are their main tasks - that is their purpose in the scheme of things.

For Christians, they seek to undermine the work of God, and provide "combat situations" to keep us on our toes, in the areas of obedience, faith, and purity, usually by appealing to the aforesaid idols from which we have been released, but which still have their appeal.

Since I am not trying to convince people of their existence, and since I don't believe you will be convinced, I do not feel obliged to go into personal details. A question was asked, and I have answered it (and from a pov different from Freak's), but I am not seeking to be part of a twenty page thread where you all demand empirical evidence that you won't believe anyway.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Solly writes:

--I wouldn't doubt it. having been an atheist, I would say the same thing in your shoes. My emprical evidence is the work of God in my life.

And I would add to Solly that demons concentrate their effort where it is most needed, and it is not needed with athiests [I was one of these too for my first 36 years]...

The idols I worshipped as an athiest were many: My own pleasures, my own opinions, my own vision, my own friends, my own family, inherited and chosen, my own...

So if you are worshipping the little god-demon named "My-own", as I certainly was, you are worshipping a demon, and your Myownic house is an idol, and your Jaguar, and your 7 figure job, and your ex-Miss-America wife, and your secret girlfirend, and your $200 bottle of wine, and... and... and...

geo

[Solly]

Today @ 04:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62949#post62949)
George Blaisdell:

And I would add to Solly that demons concentrate their effort where it is most needed, and it is not needed with athiests [I was one of these too for my first 36 years]...

--Good point. Once they are tied up, they are little trouble.

The idols I worshipped as an athiest were many: My own pleasures, my own opinions, my own vision, my own friends, my own family, inherited and chosen, my own...

--The first lie. Ye shall be as gods. New Modern Translation: I am the captain of my soul.

So if you are worshipping the little god-demon named "My-own", as I certainly was, you are worshipping a demon, and your Myownic house is an idol, and your Jaguar, and your 7 figure job, and your ex-Miss-America wife, and your secret girlfirend, and your $200 bottle of wine, and... and... and...

--And even lesser mortals fall into that. The latest gadget that the neighbours don't have, for example. St Paul came to the bottom of it all when he found that though he was, seemingly, squeaky clean on the first nine commandments, the last one "Thou shalt not covet" shot him down in flames.
The worst kind of "demonic" influence is to take up a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. The churches, temples and mosques are full of people who think they are on the fire escape, and they don't realise that they are trapped in the stair well.

[Ryokan]

Why do you follow God, Solly? What do you hold dear?

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 03:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62920#post62920)
Solly:
Since I am not trying to convince people of their existence, and since I don't believe you will be convinced, I do not feel obliged to go into personal details. A question was asked, and I have answered it (and from a pov different from Freak's), but I am not seeking to be part of a twenty page thread where you all demand empirical evidence that you won't believe anyway.

I wouldn't demand any evidence of you. I know that you don't have any that would satify me (if you did, we would all know your story anyway). I was just asking in which ways you felt that demons had influenced you or those around you.

I wouldn't want you to answer if you felt uncomfortable talking about it, however.

Paul

[sandlewood]

Today @ 07:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62893#post62893)
Solly:
--For unbelievers, they are all under the influence: 2 Cor 4: the god of this world hath blinded the minds, etc; unbelievers are enslaved to various "idols" internal or external: money, lusts, greed, anger, hatred, pride, etc. For Christians, they seek to undermine the work of God, and provide "combat situations" to keep us on our toes, in the areas of obedience, faith, and purity, usually by appealing to the aforesaid idols from which we have been released, but which still have their appeal.
This is the type of reasoning that genuinely scares me. If you really believe that we are being controlled by demons, then you can justify any action taken towards us. This is no different than the witch hunts in early American history. You can declare that no atheist be allowed to hold public office because their motivations are based on the controlling demon and they will make poor decisions as a result. In fact, you may even justify giving atheists lobotomies to reduce their susceptibility to demon possession, for their own good of course. You would be doing God’s work, right?


Today @ 07:37 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62917#post62917)
Solly:All people, even Christians are influenced by "demons"; the difference is that Christians have been given defenses against them; that doesn't mean they won't make decisions based on those influences: esp greed, anger, lust for power, in the case of Chjurch authorities and denominations.
Apparently, Christians have been given very poor defenses against them. I see no difference in moral behavior between theists and atheist. In fact, the prison population contains a high percentage of Christians and disproportionately low population of atheists. One wonders how you distinguish between demon possession and non-demon-possession if both theists and atheists suffer from demon-possession. Also, if demon-possession is what causes people to sin, then why blame people for sin? I would also question your definition of the word “worship”. To say that people “worship” money is a different meaning. And one of the saddest things that I hate to hear coming from theists mouths is how morally corrupt atheists are. As you say, we are enslaved to “money, lusts, greed, anger, hatred, pride.” What makes you think that atheists have any more anger, hate, and greed than theists? I think a lot of the problem is that Christians get their information and their opinions about atheists from their pastor (who has no idea). Perhaps you need to talk to more atheists directly instead of making assumptions and taking other people’s word for it. Please don’t mistake a person’s disagreement with your own beliefs as hate or anger. I’m an atheist and I am not filled with hate or anger and I don’t think I’m greedy. I’m very happy. Now you can choose to believe that I’m mistaken about being happy because I’m demon possessed. I could say the same about you and we wouldn’t get anywhere.


Today @ 08:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=62957#post62957)
Solly:The worst kind of "demonic" influence is to take up a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. The churches, temples and mosques are full of people who think they are on the fire escape, and they don't realise that they are trapped in the stair well.
In other words, “I have it right and all the other Christians and theists have it wrong.” Do you know how common a belief this is? Every theist I hear makes some form of this statement.

[Zakath]

Today @ 02:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63148#post63148)
sandlewood:


This is the type of reasoning that genuinely scares me. If you really believe that we are being controlled by demons, then you can justify any action taken towards us. This is no different than the witch hunts in early American history. You can declare that no atheist be allowed to hold public office because their motivations are based on the controlling demon and they will make poor decisions as a result. In fact, you may even justify giving atheists lobotomies to reduce their susceptibility to demon possession, for their own good of course. You would be doing God’s work, right?Nicely stated.

Of course they would, if they could get away with it.

Unfortunately, for them, the percentage of fundy Christians in the population is shrinking yearly while the percentage of non-religious (including atheists) is growing.

They can try to take me, but they'll have to catch me first :lol:



In other words, “I have it right and all the other Christians and theists have it wrong.” Do you know how common a belief this is? Every theist I hear makes some form of this statement.
You have succinctly stated one of the strongest reasons I have for disbelieving the claims of Christians. There are more than ten thousand sects of Christianity in the world today. The great majority of them claim that they are exclusively correct.

Since Christianity is an exclusive religion, it's as the old move quote says, "There can be only one".

[Solly]

04-11-2003 @ 07:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63148#post63148)
sandlewood:
If you really believe that we are being controlled by demons, then you can justify any action taken towards us.

--No. I take no action against you. I didn't say you are controlled by demons, but that your situation is compounded by them. The only answer is salvation. But you are responsible to God. If you join a gang through your own choice, and start doing the things the gang leader says, is he responsible, or you? You wanted to do it. Do not mistake me for right wing american fundies.

This is no different than the witch hunts in early American history. You can declare that no atheist be allowed to hold public office because their motivations are based on the controlling demon and they will make poor decisions as a result. In fact, you may even justify giving atheists lobotomies to reduce their susceptibility to demon possession, for their own good of course. You would be doing God’s work, right?

--This is why it is so difficult conversing with you people; you resort to this kind of reasoning which shows you have not read or thought about what I have written, then bellyache when Christians declare you have no basis for morality, using the same kind of reasoning. Doing God's work is to declare the Gospel; judgment rests with him, as you would see if you read the Bible.

Apparently, Christians have been given very poor defenses against them. I see no difference in moral behavior between theists and atheist. In fact, the prison population contains a high percentage of Christians and disproportionately low population of atheists. One wonders how you distinguish between demon possession and non-demon-possession if both theists and atheists suffer from demon-possession. Also, if demon-possession is what causes people to sin, then why blame people for sin? I would also question your definition of the word “worship”. To say that people “worship” money is a different meaning. And one of the saddest things that I hate to hear coming from theists mouths is how morally corrupt atheists are. As you say, we are enslaved to “money, lusts, greed, anger, hatred, pride.” What makes you think that atheists have any more anger, hate, and greed than theists? I think a lot of the problem is that Christians get their information and their opinions about atheists from their pastor (who has no idea). Perhaps you need to talk to more atheists directly instead of making assumptions and taking other people’s word for it. Please don’t mistake a person’s disagreement with your own beliefs as hate or anger. I’m an atheist and I am not filled with hate or anger and I don’t think I’m greedy. I’m very happy. Now you can choose to believe that I’m mistaken about being happy because I’m demon possessed. I could say the same about you and we wouldn’t get anywhere.

--Did I say you were deomon possessed? Did I say everyone who calls themself a Christian IS a Christian? This paragraph shows that you are indeed doing exactly what you accuse me of doing - polemicising by cut&paste.

I think a lot of the problem is that Christians get their information and their opinions about atheists from their pastor (who has no idea). Perhaps you need to talk to more atheists directly instead of making assumptions and taking other people’s word for it.
--EVERY Christian was an atheist before conversion. Don't try that old "lump them together" routine on me; I was reading Nietzsche as my chosen philosophy of life right up to the moment that I was converted.
Now you can choose to believe that I’m mistaken about being happy because I’m demon possessed.
You just don't read do you. Why would you do what you do if it didn't make you happy? Why would you accuse yourself of being greedy, hatefilled or angry (which I happen to think you are where Christians are concerned; it shows in your posts).

In other words, “I have it right and all the other Christians and theists have it wrong.” Do you know how common a belief this is? Every theist I hear makes some form of this statement.

--Yes; it is a common atheist belief too - does the name Ayn Rand ring any bells; I don't observe much humility amongst athiests on this site when they roundly condemn Christianity as being wrong de jure and de facto, while they of course are right? Unfortunately for some, somebody IS right - for the Christians, that is God; conversion is realising that. BTw I never said I wasn't wrong at times, or that I hadn't failed to live up to the standards expected.
Before you respond, you ought to respond to me the person, not your image of Christians which you have built up as is evidenced by your "rant" just now.

[Solly]

04-11-2003 @ 08:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=63276#post63276)
Zakath:

Nicely stated.

Of course they would, if they could get away with it.

--:doh: As if running a totalitarian theocratic state would get rid of superior non-corporeal beings. What do you think Judgment Day is about?

You have succinctly stated one of the strongest reasons I have for disbelieving the claims of Christians. There are more than ten thousand sects of Christianity in the world today. The great majority of them claim that they are exclusively correct.

Since Christianity is an exclusive religion, it's as the old move quote says, "There can be only one".


--Which only goes to show that Christians can be affected by appealing to their lower impulses as much as anyone. However, most of those "sects" are orthodox in that they accept the fundamentals of Christian belief - and they come together at appropriate times, such as conferences, missions etc - they do not write each other off as regards eternal salvation, but with regard to their implemetation of Biblical truth. Many of them have begun through the labours of missionaries and preachers; many have started once modern liberal thought invaded a denomination. Most of them boil down to a few strands of Presbyterianism, Catholicism, Independancy, and Heterodox sub-Christian sects like the JWs, CDs, LDS, etc

However, this is getting away from the topic at hand.

[Solly]

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

Article: Demons, Demoniac, Demonology.

In four of its most vital features the New Testament attitude on this subject differs from all popular conceptions [esp in contemporary Jewish culture]: (a) in the absence of all imaginative details concerning demons; (b) in the emphasis placed upon the moral character of demons and their connection with the ethical disorders of the human race; (c) in the absence of confidence in magical methods of any kind in dealing with demons; (d) in its intense restrictions of the sphere of demoniacal operations.

(a) In the New Testament we are told practically nothing about the origin, nature, characteristics or habits of demons.
The demons belong to the unseen world, they are incapable of manifestation except in in the disorders which they cause - there are no materializations, no grotesque narratives of appearances and disappearances, no morbid dealing with repulsive details, no license of speculation in the narratives. In contrast with this reticence is not merely the demonology of primitive people, but also that of the non-canonical Jewish books.

(b) It is also clearly to be noted that while in its original application the term daimonion is morally indifferent, in New Testament usage the demon is invariably an ethically evil being.
This differentiates the New Testament treatment from extra-canonical Jewish writings. In the New Testament demons belong to the kingdom of Satan whose power it is the mission of Christ to destroy. It deepens and intensifies its representations of the earnestness of human life and its moral issues by extending the sphere of moral struggle to the invisible world. It clearly teaches that the power of Christ extends to the world of evil spirits and that faith in Him is adequate protection against any evils to which men may be exposed.

(c) The New Testament demonology differs from all others by its negation of the power of magic rites to deliver from the affliction.
Magic which is clearly separable from religion at that specific point rests upon and is dependent upon spiritism. Even the Jewish non-canonical writings contain numerous forms of words and ceremonies for the expulsion of demons. In the New Testament there is no magic. The deliverance from a demon is a spiritual and ethical process.
(d) In the New Testament the range of activities attributed to demons is greatly restricted.
In the extra-canonical Jewish sources the same exuberance of fancy appears in attributing all kinds of ills of mind and body to innumerable, swarming hosts of demons lying in wait for men and besieging them with attacks and ills of all descriptions.
Of this affluence of morbid fancy there is no hint in the New Testament. A careful analysis of the instances will show the importance of this fact. There are, taking repetitions and all, about 80 references to demons in the New Testament. In 11 instances the distinction between demon-possession and diseases ordinarily caused is clearly made (Mat_4:24; Mat_8:16; Mat_10:8; Mar_1:32, Mar_1:34; Mar_6:13; Mar_16:17, Mar_16:18; Luk_4:40, Luk_4:41; Luk_9:1; Luk_13:32; Act_19:12). The results of demon-possession are not exclusively mental or nervous (Mat_9:32, Mat_9:33; Mat_12:22). They are distinctly and peculiarly mental in two instances only (Gadarene maniac, Mat_8:28 and parallels, and Act_19:13 f). Epilepsy is specified in one case only (Mat_17:15). There is distinction made between demonized and epileptic, and demonized and lunatic (Mat_4:24). There is distinction made between diseases caused by demons and the same disease not so caused (compare Mat_12:22; Mat_15:30). In most of the instances no specific symptoms are mentioned. In an equally large proportion, however, there are occasional fits of mental excitement often due to the presence and teaching of Christ.
While this group of disorders is attributed to demons, the victims are treated as sick folk and are healed.
It is also evident that Jesus treated these cases of invaded personality, of bondage of depression, of helpless fear, as due to a real superhuman cause, to meet and overcome which He addressed Himself. The most distinctive and important words we have upon this obscure and difficult subject, upon which we know far too little to speak with any assurance or authority, are these: “This kind can come out by nothing, save by prayer” (Mar 9:29).

SATAN
A created but superhuman, personal, evil, world-power, represented in Scripture as the adversary both of God and men.
The world-wide and age-long works of Satan are to be traced to one predominant motive. He hates both God and man and does all that in him lies to defeat God's plan of grace and to establish and maintain a kingdom of evil, in the seduction and ruin of mankind. The balance and sanity of the Bible is nowhere more strikingly exhibited than in its treatment of the work of Satan. Not only is the Bible entirely free from the extravagances of popular Satanology, which is full of absurd stories concerning the appearances, tricks, and transformations of Satan among men, but it exhibits a dependable accuracy and consistency, of statement which is most reassuring. Almost nothing is said concerning Satanic agency other than wicked men who mislead other men. Satan's power consists principally in his ability to deceive. It is interesting and characteristic that according to the Bible Satan is fundamentally a liar and his kingdom is a kingdom founded upon lies and deceit. The doctrine of Satan [...] corresponds in every important particular to the general Biblical emphasis upon truth. “The truth shall make you free” (Joh_8:32) - this is the way of deliverance from the power of Satan.
Now it would seem that to make Satan pre-eminently the deceiver would make man an innocent victim and thus relax the moral issue. But according to the Bible man is particeps criminis in the process of his own deception. He is deceived only because he ceases to love the truth and comes first to love and then to believe a lie (2Co_1:10). This really goes to the very bottom of the problem of temptation. Men are not tempted by evil, per se, but by a good which can be obtained only at the cost of doing wrong. The whole power of sin, at least in its beginnings, consists in the sway of the fundamental falsehood that any good is really attainable by wrongdoing. Since temptation consists in this attack upon the moral sense, man is constitutionally guarded against deceit, and is morally culpable in allowing himself to be deceived.
When he is called “the god of this world” (2Co_4:4) it would seem to be intimated that he has the power to clothe himself in apparently divine attributes. He also makes himself an angel of light by presenting advocates of falsehood in the guise of apostles of truth (2Co_11:13, 2Co_11:15; 1Jo_4:1; 2Th_2:9; Rev_12:9; Rev_19:20). In the combination of passages here brought together, it is clearly indicated that Satan is the instigator and fomenter of that spirit of lawlessness which exhibits itself as hatred both of truth and right, and which has operated so widely and so disastrously in human life.

[Solly]

The above is where I stand. I takes sides neither with the modern charismatic deliverance mania, or the old fashioned mediaeval "guys in red tights" mythology (though Dante's Divine Comedy is good) that leads eventually to Dennis Wheatley, The Exorcist, The Omen, etc and, laugh of all laughs, Black Masses and Heavy Metal rock groups who trade on the image.

Resources for Christians: Dæmonologia sacra, or, A Treatise of Satan's temptations (London: Richard Randal and Peter Maplasden, 1677), by Richard Gilpin - Not read it, but heard good things about it. Screwtape Letters, C S Lewis - a must read. Christian in Complete Armour, William Gurnall; The Nature of Temptation, John Owen.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Solly writes:
> (c) The New Testament demonology differs from all others by its negation of the power of magic rites to deliver from the affliction.
Magic which is clearly separable from religion at that specific point rests upon and is dependent upon spiritism. Even the Jewish non-canonical writings contain numerous forms of words and ceremonies for the expulsion of demons. In the New Testament there is no magic. The deliverance from a demon is a spiritual and ethical process....
> The most distinctive and important words we have upon this obscure and difficult subject, upon which we know far too little to speak with any assurance or authority, are these: “This kind can come out by nothing, save by prayer” (Mar 9:29).
> Now it would seem that to make Satan pre-eminently the deceiver would make man an innocent victim and thus relax the moral issue. But according to the Bible man is particeps criminis in the process of his own deception. He is deceived only because he ceases to love the truth and comes first to love and then to believe a lie (2Co_1:10). This really goes to the very bottom of the problem of temptation.
> When he is called “the god of this world” (2Co_4:4) it would seem to be intimated that he has the power to clothe himself in apparently divine attributes.

Nice article, Solly -

The only correction I would offer would be your mis-quote of Mark 9:29 “This kind can come out by nothing, save by prayer”. Christ's words are "...by prayer AND FASTING."

Demons are angels, noetic beings, supersensibly apprehended, yet when identified by those who so identigy them, they are identified by the logic of their manifestation. The Bible tells us we will judge angels, and it is the demons that this refers to... [Not less unsettling is the idea that the only one fit to judge a servant is the master of the servant, and not another servant of a different master... But I ruminate....]

Christians, properly called, "are not unaware of demons...", knowing only too well their own vulnerability to them, their own rulership by them, and the difficult and painful process of extraction from their influence that is the Christian path of salvation. The first real gift from God that we receive after our calling is awareness of our own sins, and this is a great cause of distress, and unquenchable sorrow. Many of the early saints found their salvation right there in that Godly sorrow and contrition of heart, weeping their way in repentance directly into God's heart. My own patron saint cried away his eyelashes across the years in his eventual hermitage... He died at 95, in 450... In Eastern Orthodoxy we call this the gift of tears... It is commonplace...

So that the workings of sin in our lives is a core focus of the faith, in that the picking off and defeat of sin is what Christ gave us on the Cross, and this is why we call out unto Him in our battles that step by step put the old man to death, and bring growth unto the perfection of maturation of the newly created in Christ...

Many are the stories of deceptions, and the great effect of the Godly in identifying them, and defeating them... Fasting is a huge weapon in their discernment...

geo

[Solly]

Today @ 02:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=66017#post66017)

George Blaisdell:
The only correction I would offer would be your mis-quote of Mark 9:29 “This kind can come out by nothing, save by prayer”. Christ's words are "...by prayer AND FASTING."

--Apologies, I didn't check that.


Christians, properly called, "are not unaware of demons...", knowing only too well their own vulnerability to them, their own rulership by them, and the difficult and painful process of extraction from their influence that is the Christian path of salvation. The first real gift from God that we receive after our calling is awareness of our own sins, and this is a great cause of distress, and unquenchable sorrow. Many of the early saints found their salvation right there in that Godly sorrow and contrition of heart, weeping their way in repentance directly into God's heart. My own patron saint cried away his eyelashes across the years in his eventual hermitage... He died at 95, in 450... In Eastern Orthodoxy we call this the gift of tears... It is commonplace...

So that the workings of sin in our lives is a core focus of the faith, in that the picking off and defeat of sin is what Christ gave us on the Cross, and this is why we call out unto Him in our battles that step by step put the old man to death, and bring growth unto the perfection of maturation of the newly created in Christ...

--That is the Christianity I know. Calvinistic Baptist agrees with Eastern Orthodox. So much for "10,000 sects". Thank you George.
Are there any specific orthodox sources you could mention?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

[QUOTE]\
[b]Solly[b] writes:

> --That is the Christianity I know.

It is the unchanged understanding of the practice of the faith of the ancient Church fot the last 2000 years...

> Calvinistic Baptist agrees with Eastern Orthodox.

Wonders never cease!

But don't despair! We are still baptizing the babies that you leave unbaptized until they can assent to their own confession of the faith, so there is still hope for our continuing disagreement!! ':smile:'

> So much for "10,000 sects".

Yes - Not that there are NOT 10,000, mind you, but that there is one...

There is one God, and one faith, and that received, not deduced, from those who have it... This idea that we are all of the same faith, that we just use language differently, is nuts... There is one evangel...

> Thank you George.

I didn't know you were a Baptist. American? Or maybe British - The British are closer to Orthodoxy and Reformation theology than the Americans, and are greatly puzzled by what they see on the net from the US...

> Are there any specific orthodox sources you could mention?

Tons... But I must warn you - You start reading this stuff and you're gonna get spoiled - You'll get addicted to it, and anything outside of it will start tasting like last night's chewing gum stuck to the bed-post... ':teeth:'

Free reading on the net, where about 40% of the chapters are reproduced to read and download if you like, can be found at: http://www.romanity.org/cont.htm

Another web source is http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/

The real way is to attend a service. A huge number and percentage of converts are preachers who know their Bibles... Then there are the bottom of the barrel types like me, who don't know much... But are good at stringing words...

Authentic humility is the great defence against demons... They are always on the con, just as was the serpent in the Garden - Appealing to your vanitous spiritual greed, and then stealing your wealth [soul] from its relationship with God... And feasting on it...

Tain't pretty... It is why Christ gave us the Church - Nobody fights this battle alone outside the Church and wins...

geo

[Solly]

Today @ 03:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=66067#post66067)
George Blaisdell:


[b]Solly[b] writes:
> Calvinistic Baptist agrees with Eastern Orthodox.
But don't despair! We are still baptizing the babies that you leave unbaptized until they can assent to their own confession of the faith, so there is still hope for our continuing disagreement!! ':smile:'

--:teeth:

> So much for "10,000 sects".

Yes - Not that there are NOT 10,000, mind you, but that there is one...

--:teeth:

There is one God, and one faith, and that received, not deduced, from those who have it... This idea that we are all of the same faith, that we just use language differently, is nuts... There is one evangel...

--:teeth:

I didn't know you were a Baptist. American? Or maybe British - The British are closer to Orthodoxy and Reformation theology than the Americans, and are greatly puzzled by what they see on the net from the US...

--British. Strict and Particular (not that that means much to you); some similarities to some Primitive Baptists in the US. And yes, greatly puzzled by some of the stuff I see.

> Are there any specific orthodox sources you could mention?

Tons... But I must warn you - You start reading this stuff and you're gonna get spoiled - You'll get addicted to it, and anything outside of it will start tasting like last night's chewing gum stuck to the bed-post... ':teeth:'

--I am currently drooling over the St Vladimir's catalogue. :teeth:


----

Authentic humility is the great defence against demons... They are always on the con, just as was the serpent in the Garden - Appealing to your vanitous spiritual greed, and then stealing your wealth [soul] from its relationship with God... And feasting on it...

--Agreement again. You're not far from the kingdom, my friend. (I mean that in the best possible way.)

:cheers:

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Solly: writes:

> I didn't know you were a Baptist. American? Or maybe British - The British are closer to Orthodoxy and Reformation theology than the Americans, and are greatly puzzled by what they see on the net from the US...

> --British. Strict and Particular (not that that means much to you);

Well, my vast spiritual discernment is revealing just to me alone that the real meaning of these terms is "Ungeneralized and non-permissive"!!! :lol:

> some similarities to some Primitive Baptists in the US. And yes, greatly puzzled by some of the stuff I see.

One of the moderators on another board is British baptist [Nick], and the US Orthodox who participate on that board were very surprised to learn that there is a really solid Baptist school of Theology out of Britain that is only tangentially related to their American counterparts. They tend to take more grounding in the Reformation, and spend time with Augustine. And regard most of what they see in the colonies as an aberration of theology...

That list, btw, is the evang-ortho list: www.chrysostom.org/evang-ortho... You might want to check it out too...

> --I am currently drooling over the St Vladimir's catalogue.

Oh - You're already in a heap! Good for you!

I wish you well - You really did surprise me with your Baptist claim, until I remembered Nick and the British tradition... One of the things that this "sola" rhetoric smokescreens from people is their reliance on tradition - It is hard to avoid seeing it clearly when a British and an American Baptist talk God...

You take care -

geo

[GrayPilgrim]

George, I could not get the link ot work.

GP

[Solly]

The dots that follow it need removing.
However, that is just the front page that leads to a yahoo forum, and you need to register.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

GrayPilgrim: writes:

George, I could not get the link ot work.

Me either, GP... ':huh:'

Ever notice how my sentences trail off with those three little dots... ... ... ... ':hrm:'

Well, lame duck-quack that I am, ':frown:' I managed to trail them onto the url:
www.chrysostom.org/evang-ortho...

See them there? ':eek:'

I mean, don't they just shoot old and lame horses? ':dunce:'

So here ya go with my improved version: ':thumb:'

www.chrysostom.org/evang-ortho

Sorry for the ruinous addition of blank reverie to an otherwise perfectly good url...':uhoh:'


geo

[Glenn P]

With all these conflicting claims to deal with, it's going to be a bit difficult for this atheist to swallow your line without some sort of empircal evidence to back it up. :huh:What about athiests and their view of all religions?


What about Muslims and their view of all other religions?


What about Jews and their view of all other religions?


What about Mormons and their view of atheists?


What about... What about....


Golly Gee Whizz.... with all these non Christian views swirling about in contradiction, I couldn't possibly rationally be expected to abandon Christianity without clear empirical evidence.


(note for the dull-witted: This post is for the purpose of identifying a weak form of argument)

[Seasanctuary]

- Demons. Do you believe in them? Are they something you can see? Have you ever experienced one? Can they possess people? What do they do... what is their purpose, and who or what controls them? How do you know if someone is under the influence of a demon? I tell a couple of my incubus stories in this post (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=428301&postcount=4)...and a trance possession while I'm at it.

I believed they were demons when I was a Christian. Now, I think it's a good example of how supernatural beliefs get started.

[BeHereNow]

I tell a couple of my incubus stories in this post (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=428301&postcount=4)...and a trance possession while I'm at it.

I believed they were demons when I was a Christian. Now, I think it's a good example of how supernatural beliefs get started.

Great post, Sea (the linked one). I have had similar experiences, which I posted about here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153741&postcount=3). These events kept me believing Christianity for a very long time. After I dropped the religion, these remained in my mind as the only things that I'd experienced but could not explain with natural reasons. Then one day at a friend's house I opened a book to a random page about hypnogogic hallucinations, and alas, the light turned on.

Demons are one of three things.

1. If they appear physicaly, they are a hallucination.
2. If they possess someone, they are a metaphor for psychosis.
3. If referred to in general, is in, "Demons work against God's will", they are a metaphor for anything antithetical to <insert religion here>.

[Seasanctuary]

Yep, BeHereNow, that definitely is a similar experience. Thanks for pointing out the link, I'd missed that the first time around.

And I have indeed been laughing at the Maddox site since I saw it in your signature a couple months ago. I still love this stance on abortion: "I'm against abortion, but for killing babies."

[zorathruster]

In engineering the testing phase invariably has unaccounted for anomolies that popped up during the tests. Sometimes we could figure out why those anomolies occurred, sometimes it is just too time consuming to figure it out. So in an effort to ignore as undeterminable certain weirdness that we don't have time to figure out we call them demons or gremlins or spooks. This I believe is a normal reaction and has been with mankind for a long time. Those things that we just can't figure out are given labels and capabilities to accomplish those things we observe but don't have time to understand.

We called the microscopic critters that live on the upper surface of the airfoil - lifties. The way you got lifties to work was put a jet engine right below them or in back of them that would generate enough noise to scare them into running away. Because of the fact lifties are stuck to the wing, the airplane will now fly. Seems to work everytime.

[steamer]

--For unbelievers, they are all under the influence: 2 Cor 4: the god of this world hath blinded the minds, etc; unbelievers are enslaved to various "idols" internal or external: money, lusts, greed, anger, hatred, pride, etc. For Christians, they seek to undermine the work of God, and provide "combat situations" to keep us on our toes, in the areas of obedience, faith, and purity, usually by appealing to the aforesaid idols from which we have been released, but which still have their appeal.

:lol: Do you think black cats are bad too?