1421: Chinese Discover America?

[ChrisChillin]

Has anyone read Gavin Menzies' book in which he claims that a Chinese fleet sailed to the Americas in 1421, or seen the PBS documentary on the theory? I just finished watching the show on TV earlier tonight, and I was wondering if anyone was looking into this idea. The guy puts together a fascinating thesis, but in the end it seems to fall far short of beign convincing.

[Tfbandie]

I think most historians agree that the vikings sailed over first (after the crossing of bering straits of course). Leif erikson ~1000 sailed over from greenland and actually set up a small colony. I have not heard this Chinese theory, though i wouldn't rule it out based on some of the other cool accomplishments in Chinese history.

[CatholicSage]

I think I heard a theory like this on a show about the search for Atlantis. Another theory was that ancient Americans occasionally sailed over the Atlantic to Africa. It all seems pretty unfounded.

[rmwilliamsjr]

The fleet got to the east coast of africa. the rest is pure speculation.

[Ben Franklin]

I heard the ancient Japanese made it to Peru... Who knows...? :huh:

[Minnesota]

I think most historians agree that the vikings sailed over first (after the crossing of bering straits of course).

I think you might want to consult your atlas. The Bering Strait is on the other side of the North American continent (between Alaska and Russia).

[anthrogirl]

Oh Goody! The Ming Dynasty (1368-1644)!!!


What distinguished the early Ming, but fit the pattern of early Han, Tang, and Song, was the outreach of imperial pride, especially in their remarkable maritime expeditions.Using the nautical technology inherited form the Song, the eunuch admiral Zheng He mounted seven naval expeditions of Chinese fleets between 1405 and 1433, with up to 60 vessels. They toured much of Southeast Asia, the east and west coasts of India (including Calicut, where 90 yrs later Vasco de Gama was to make his Asian landfall), Ceylon (Sri Lanka), the Persian Gulf and Hormuz, Aden, Jidda (from where seven Chinese went to Mecca), and on to east Africa. Some ships may have gone as far as the Cape of Good Hope, or even around it. They brought back giraffes, zebras, and ostriches to amaze the court, and tributary agreements with gifts from a host of new states. When the king of Ceylon was considered not defferential enough, he was arrested and taken back to Nanjing, where Yongle appointed a new king in his place.

Zheng He's many-decked ships carried up to 500 troops, but also cargoes of export goods, mainly silks and porcelains, and brought back foreign luxuries such as spices and tropical woods. The economic motive for these huge ventures may have been important, and many of the ships had large, private cabins for the merchants. But the chief aim was probably political, to show the flag and command respect for the empire, as well as to enroll still more states as tributaries.

Some of the ships were larger than anything previously built in the world, 400 ft long and of 500 tons burden, with four decks. They were reported nevertheless to be faster sailers than the Portuguese caravels or Spanish galleons of a century or two later, especially with a favorable wind. They were designed in accordance with the well-known monsoonal wind patterns of Asia and the Indian Ocean. Properly timed voyages could count on going with the wind for about half the year almost anywhere in that vast region, and then returning with the opposite monsoon in the other half of the year. Zheng He's ships, like those in the Song, were built with double hulls and up to a dozen separate watertight compartments. Despite their far-flung voyages and their many encounters with storms and unknown coasts, few were ever lost. They were provided with detailed sailing directions, at least for the waters nearer home, as well as compasses.

Such exploits of seamanship and exploration were unprecedented in the world. Their grand scale and imperial pretension, as well, perhaps, as their commercial ambition, were an expression of new imperial pride and vigor. But they contributed little to the economy except temporary employment for shipbuilders and crew, and made no lasting impression on the Chinese mind, except to further confirm their sense of superiority as the only civilized empire.

The expeditions were very expensive, and were stopped after 1433, perhaps mainly for that reason, although abuses and corruption in procuring shipbuilding materials and in contracts with shipyards also attracted imperial criticism. Zheng He was a Muslim as well as a eunuch, and this may have generated prejudice against him in the orthodox and highly Confucian court. The emporer may have felt that he had made his imperial point, and it is unlikely that trade profits covered costs. Another factor was his decision to move the primary capital to Beijing in 1421 (Nanjing was kept as a secondary, southern capital), to better command the chronically troubled northern frontier, where there was an attempted revival of Mongol power, as well as to bring the Ming into line with what was by now the hallowed tradition of a northern capital. The monumental building of Beijing also competed with the shipyards for shrinking sources of timber, and for construction workers, as well as for treasury allocations.

But the abandonment of the maritime expeditions, like the move to Beijing, was a symptom of the Ming's basic conservatism once the first half-century had passed. There were understandable fears of a Mongol resurgence and deep concern about the Central Adian conquests of the Turkish leader Tamarlane (1336-1405), who they had reason to fear was planning to invade China. HIs death ended that threat, but the Mongols were still active. Yongluo personally led five expeditions out into the steppe to combat the Mongol revival and remained preoccupied with his northern defenses, for which there was ample precedent in Chinese history. Newly reorganized Mongol tribes continued to harass the border areas and to raid across the frontier until the mid-seventeenth century. The Ming also promoted the spread of Lamaistic Buddhism to the Mongols in an effort to pacify them, a strategy which seems in the end to have been more effective than military confrontation.

The cost of the anti-Mongol campaigns on top of the building of Beijing was a strain, and the extravagant oceanic adventures were a logical item for retrenchment. Zheng He's voyages had been supported by his fellow eunuchs at court, who were strongly opposed by the Confucian scholar-officials; their antagonism was in fact so great that they tried to suppress any mention of the naval expeditions in the official record.

China's relations by sea had always been given a far lower priority than her land frontiers, and this ancient pattern was now reasserted. The expeditions discovered nothing worth the effort, and conquest was never part of the plan. Nevertheless the scale of Zheng He's voyages remains impressive. While the Portuguese were just beginning to feel their way cautiously along the west African coast in sight of land, Chinese fleets of far larger ships dominated the Indian Ocean and the western Pacific and traded in most of the ports. They did not try to cross the Pacific or continue westward to Europe, which they were clearly capable of doing,* only because to their knowledge there was nothing in either direction to make such a voyage worthwhile.

If they had reached Europe, they probably would have been no more impressed by it than by what they saw in Southeast Asia, India, the Persian Gulf, or Africa, nor any more than they were to be a century later by the early European arrivals in China, still to their way of thinking crude barbarians. Fifteenth-century North America would have seemed to them too primitive even to mention. As with some earlier Chinese innovations in science and technology, these maritime achievements were not followed up. The conquest of the seas, global expansion, and a sea-based commercial revolution were left to the poorer and less complacent Europeans, who, from both their own and the Chinese point of view, had more to gain thereby--and less to concern them or to take pride in at home. The chief early goal of the European expansion overseas was in fact China, whose riches and sophistication had attracted Europe's mind and ambitions since the Roman imports of Chinese silk, that symbol of luxury and wealth


*In fact there is some evidence that they may have reached the California coast--anchors of Chinese design and appropriate age have been found in shallow water off Santa Barbara


emphasis mine.

[Nicholas]

Actually, in reference to the comment by Lutheransage about the South Americans voyaging to Africa, there may be some basis for that. I had heard that scientists may have found residue of what could be Tobacco in Egyptian mummies. What makes this interesting is that at the time Tobacco was only found the Americas. And it may have been possible for ships of the period to cross the atlantic. Wasn't there an experiment in which someone made a trans-atlantic crossing in a reed boat?
Also, not to go off topic but you also mentioned Atlantis, there is some speculation that if they could have crossed the Atlantic, that Plato may have been refering to a civiliazation in South America, because the city of Tiahuanaco in Boliva does have some similarities to Plato's description of Atlantis, including it being placed on a large rectangular plain in the Andes mountain, and some evidence points to the city having been flooded at some point. But like I said, it is all merely speculation, but it will be interesting to see any further evidence.

[DunnySaze]

Has anyone read Gavin Menzies' book in which he claims that a Chinese fleet sailed to the Americas in 1421, or seen the PBS documentary on the theory? I just finished watching the show on TV earlier tonight, and I was wondering if anyone was looking into this idea. The guy puts together a fascinating thesis, but in the end it seems to fall far short of beign convincing.

How could the Chinese (or Columbus or the Vikings) discover America if there were already people waiting here when they landed?

[Minnesota]

Well, as any Dunny should know, only discoveries by whites count. We write the books. We get to say who does what. :wink:

[CatholicSage]

Actually, in reference to the comment by Lutheransage about the South Americans voyaging to Africa, there may be some basis for that. I had heard that scientists may have found residue of what could be Tobacco in Egyptian mummies. What makes this interesting is that at the time Tobacco was only found the Americas. And it may have been possible for ships of the period to cross the atlantic. Wasn't there an experiment in which someone made a trans-atlantic crossing in a reed boat?
Also, not to go off topic but you also mentioned Atlantis, there is some speculation that if they could have crossed the Atlantic, that Plato may have been refering to a civiliazation in South America, because the city of Tiahuanaco in Boliva does have some similarities to Plato's description of Atlantis, including it being placed on a large rectangular plain in the Andes mountain, and some evidence points to the city having been flooded at some point. But like I said, it is all merely speculation, but it will be interesting to see any further evidence.

Yes, I believe that that is some of the evidence that the TV show provided. It's all very interesting.

[Dave G]

I think you might want to consult your atlas. The Bering Strait is on the other side of the North American continent (between Alaska and Russia).
He means a crossing by Erikson would be the first to the Americas with the exception of the crossing of peoples over the Bering Strait, probably over the fabled land bridge.

[Ben Franklin]

I heard that the "Atlantis" to which Plato refers, was a Cretan island populated by the Minoan race: it suffered a massive eruption, and the Minoans there were wiped out. True or false...? Anyway, it's not South America if true... :huh:

[Dave G]

Actually, in reference to the comment by Lutheransage about the South Americans voyaging to Africa, there may be some basis for that. I had heard that scientists may have found residue of what could be Tobacco in Egyptian mummies. What makes this interesting is that at the time Tobacco was only found the Americas. And it may have been possible for ships of the period to cross the atlantic. Wasn't there an experiment in which someone made a trans-atlantic crossing in a reed boat?
Also, not to go off topic but you also mentioned Atlantis, there is some speculation that if they could have crossed the Atlantic, that Plato may have been refering to a civiliazation in South America, because the city of Tiahuanaco in Boliva does have some similarities to Plato's description of Atlantis, including it being placed on a large rectangular plain in the Andes mountain, and some evidence points to the city having been flooded at some point. But like I said, it is all merely speculation, but it will be interesting to see any further evidence.
Thor Heyerdahl made the crossing of the Atlantic in a reed vessel 15 meters long in 1969-70 and fell short of the Barbados a week away because of deficiencies in the construction of the boat. He sailed a second time in a 12 meter boat and succeeded, crossing at the widest stretch of the Atlantic (6100 km.)

He made a raft trip in 1947 on a balsa raft from Peru to Polynesia, 8000 km. It turned on its head the prevailing theory that stone-age explorers had come to Polynesia from Southeast Asia (I think 10000 km away) because their technology was better. He lost faith in that theory because the wind and the currents come from the east, making a travel from South America more likely. I think the raft was 10 to 15 meters long.

I only remember the raft trip not because I'm interested in nautical feats, but because in the middle of the ocean for a time at night the raft was shadowed by a fish as long as the raft that glowed in the dark. Too bad he didn't have the set-up to try to catch it, but then if it wasn't a small and appetizing looking raft, the fish might not have been interested.

http://www.greatdreams.com/thor.htm

[Roy]

Thor Heyerdahl made the crossing of the Atlantic in a reed vessel 15 meters long in 1969-70 and fell short of the Barbados a week away because of deficiencies in the construction of the boat. He sailed a second time in a 12 meter boat and succeeded, crossing at the widest stretch of the Atlantic (6100 km.)

Less well publicised, Tim Severin &co crossed the atlantic in a 30ft leather coracle, via the Faroes, to demonstrate that the legendary transatlantic voyage of the 6th century Irish monk Brendan was feasible.

Roy

[Vorkosigan]

*In fact there is some evidence that they may have reached the California coast--anchors of Chinese design and appropriate age have been found in shallow water off Santa Barbara

It's been known for three decades that those are local productions. See Needham's Transpacific Echoes and Resonances: Listening Again

Menzies' book is sensationalist crap, much of it transposed from the old Erik Von Daniken "evidence." It is very unevenly researched. The Needham volume cited above is old, but does a much better job of reviewing the evidence for early Chinese interactions with the Americas. There is no evidence that suggests that the Ming fleets ever went beyond the SE Asian, Indian, and E African waters.

From memory, Needham notes a number of oddities suggesting trans-pacific contact. One is that stills -- for distillation -- come in two basic types, one found around the pacific, one in the west. bark cloth is processed the same way in the pacific and in the americas. certain food items suggest transmission. and both meso-american and chinese cultures saw a rabbit in the moon. both valued jade, Chou Dynasty bronze work and central american bronze work are practically identical....there are many congruences. But no hard evidence -- inscriptions, etc.

Vorkosigan

[jason]

Is the Doco worth watching ?

It'll probably never come to TV down here in Oz, but I did see it on digitaldistractions.org recently and wondered if it was worth it.

Jason

[anthrogirl]

It's been known for three decades that those are local productions. See Needham's Transpacific Echoes and Resonances: Listening Again

Menzies' book is sensationalist crap, much of it transposed from the old Erik Von Daniken "evidence." It is very unevenly researched. The Needham volume cited above is old, but does a much better job of reviewing the evidence for early Chinese interactions with the Americas. There is no evidence that suggests that the Ming fleets ever went beyond the SE Asian, Indian, and E African waters.

From memory, Needham notes a number of oddities suggesting trans-pacific contact. One is that stills -- for distillation -- come in two basic types, one found around the pacific, one in the west. bark cloth is processed the same way in the pacific and in the americas. certain food items suggest transmission. and both meso-american and chinese cultures saw a rabbit in the moon. both valued jade, Chou Dynasty bronze work and central american bronze work are practically identical....there are many congruences. But no hard evidence -- inscriptions, etc.

Vorkosigan
Needham is probably one of the most respected and solid sources on Sinology available. Do you know when Transpacific Echoes and Resonances was published?

[Maimonides]

Actually, in reference to the comment by Lutheransage about the South Americans voyaging to Africa, there may be some basis for that. I had heard that scientists may have found residue of what could be Tobacco in Egyptian mummies. What makes this interesting is that at the time Tobacco was only found the Americas. And it may have been possible for ships of the period to cross the atlantic. Wasn't there an experiment in which someone made a trans-atlantic crossing in a reed boat?
Also, not to go off topic but you also mentioned Atlantis, there is some speculation that if they could have crossed the Atlantic, that Plato may have been refering to a civiliazation in South America, because the city of Tiahuanaco in Boliva does have some similarities to Plato's description of Atlantis, including it being placed on a large rectangular plain in the Andes mountain, and some evidence points to the city having been flooded at some point. But like I said, it is all merely speculation, but it will be interesting to see any further evidence.
Atlantis... that ever-beckoning holy grail. I'm somewhat familiar with Thor Heyerdahl's work with the Ra II, trying to establish links between Egypt and America, but I remain unimpressed. I think any contact between Eastern Hemisphere civilizations such as Egypt or China and the Americas must have been very brief and not at all protracted; witness the absence of Eurasian crops and megafaunal domesticates in Pre-Columbian America.

As to Tiwanaku, the biggest problems I see with your thesis are first of all the above: implausible links between Egypt (from whence Plato's account came, via Solon about 600 B.C.), and South America (remember Tiwanaku is on the western side of South America), and secondly the time frame: Atlantis was supposed to have existed about 9600 B.C. (nine millennia before Solon's time, six hundred years before Christ), whereas urbanization in the Andes is known not to have begun until much later (Third millenium B.C. I think, maybe earlier), with Tiwanaku thriving in the earlier Common Era and falling into decline about 800 A.D. due to unfavorable El Nino cycles causing protracted drought.

For the reasons postulated above I really don't think Atlantis had anything to do with the Americas. People have been hard at work trying to prove non-indigenous origins for Amerindian civilizations for a long time, often postulating spurious links in the most absurd places. There is currently an hypothesis about connections between Plains Indians and Tibetans via the Pacific; I don't know much of anything about it so I'll remain mildly skeptical for now.

[Maimonides]

I heard that the "Atlantis" to which Plato refers, was a Cretan island populated by the Minoan race: it suffered a massive eruption, and the Minoans there were wiped out. True or false...? Anyway, it's not South America if true... :huh:
Quite plausible in some particulars... most of these theories of the "true" location of Atlantis involve a certain ammount of manipulation of Plato's account. The "Pillars of Hercules" can become almost anything one wants them to, seemingly; although the usual interpretation is the Straits of Gibraltar other plausible alternatives have been suggested.

If the "nine thousand" years since the destruction of Atlantis (9600 B.C.), could be taken as a mistake and read as nine hundred years, then problem solved, we could easily be talking about the island of Thera near Crete, which was Minoan. And yes, I agree with you that South America was in no way involved.

[Benster]

I've read compelling evidence that all sorts of people travelled to America from just about every continent.

But, if we're talking about the original discovery of North America by the humans who would later come to be known as Indians or native Americans/Mayas/Aztec, etc, there is new evidence that this discovery may not even have occurred at the Bering Straits by land, but by sea from Asia. Not in the middle ages, but more like 50,000 to 100,000 years ago.