The meaning of Daniel 7:13-14

[Menachem]

At first I would like to talk about Daniel 7:13-14 and how it is applied. First let’s start with the quote.

Daniel 7:13-14 “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like a son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14. And there he was given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Now I will post the Aramaic to help explain a few things in this verse:

חזה הוית בחזוי ליליא וארו עם-ענני כבר אנש אתה הוה ועד- עתיק יומיא מטה וקדמוהי הקרבוהי: ולה יהיב שלטן ויקר ומלכו וכל עממיא אמיא ולשניא לה יפלחון שלטנה שלטן עלם די-לא יעדה ומלכותה די-לא תתחבך


First I want tell you about some of the popular thoughts about this verse.

1) Christains claim this is talking about jesus’ coming.
2) Rashi says this verse is about King Messiah
3) Other commentators say this is about the Nation of Israel


I would first like to deal with the Christian claim of this being about jesus:

1) The words commonly looked at to associate this with jesus is Bar Enash ( בר אנש ) which means “son of man” in Aramaic. If you look closely at the Aramaic it does not say Bar Enash but rather K’var Enash ( כבר אנש ) which says “Like a son of man” many Christians ignore the Kaf ( כ ) and immediately seize the phrase bar enash to be pointing to jesus. Is that really what the phrase says? The phrase itself is a similie which is a comparison using like or as. This phrase here is comparing something to a “son of man.” What this is, is not exactly explained nor is it given but many have said this is talking about the nation of Israel or an angelic figure. Most probably it is comparing the Nation of Israel. Nowhere in the GNT is jesus ever called "like a son of man." To associate the two would be pointless and undoable since it("like a son of man") is never used for jesus.

2) Now I would like to discuss what Rashi said. Rashi said this was about King Messiah. How would he have arrived to this conclusion. My thought is that he was not looking at the “like a son of man” part but rather the rest of the verse and comparing it to the Aramaic Targum Onkelos of Genesis 49:10. Rashi was taking the part of “14. And there he was given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. He compared this to this:

Genesis 49:10(Targum Onkelos):

“The ability to exercise dominion shall not pass away from the house of Judah, nor the sceptor from his children's children for ever, even when the Messiah comes to whom the kingdom belongs, and to him shall be the obedience of the nations (or, whom the peoples shall obey).

The Aramaic text for Genesis 49:10:

Genesis 49:10(Targum Onkelos)
י)לא יעדי עבד שלטן מדבית יהודה וספרא מבני בנוהי עד אלמא דייתי משיחא דדילה היא מלכותא ולה ישתמעון עממיא.

Here we can see Rashi was associating the words Dominion (שלטן) and Kingdom (מלכותא) and (מלכותה) and also the word for Nations/Peoples (עממיא) which is used in both Daniel 7:14 and Genesis 49:10(Targum Onkelos). That I believe is the rationale that Rashi was using when he was associating this with the King Messiah.

3) Many other commentators like to place this verse as to relating to the nation of Israel. For example they place the “Like a son of man” as personification of the Nation of Israel just as it has before (Exodus 4:22). In Exodus 4:22 Israel is called “G-d’s first-born son” and is personified all through the Tanakh as a male child.


Me personally I think that the nation of Israel fits in better with “like a son of man” since it is a similie comparing it to something that is not a man but rather "like a man". I can also see Rashi’s point about how this can be about King Messiah once the reason and the association is outlined.

What do you all think of this assessment? Any thoughts?

[Cherith]

What do you all think of this assessment? Any thoughts?

I think that I would be able to swallow Rashi's opinion before I swallowed yours and then I would argue from Rashi's position to the logical conclusion that only an ancient Jew - namely Jesus - could have fulfilled the prophecy based on the time constraints of the Text.

"Seventy sevens are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint The Most Holy. {25} Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven sevens, and threescore and two sevens: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. {26} And AFTER threescore and two sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. {27} And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one seven: and in the midst of the seven He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." --Dan 9:24-27

[Menachem]

I think that I would be able to swallow Rashi's opinion before I swallowed yours and then I would argue from Rashi's position to the logical conclusion that only an ancient Jew - namely Jesus - could have fulfilled the prophecy based on the time constraints of the Text.

"Seventy sevens are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint The Most Holy. {25} Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven sevens, and threescore and two sevens: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. {26} And AFTER threescore and two sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. {27} And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one seven: and in the midst of the seven He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." --Dan 9:24-27


The only problem I find with this assesment is that the calendar being used is the Jewish Calendar and not the gregorian calendar. Which would put us right in line with the maccabean revolt.


Also there are translation issues above such as the improper translation of "Mashiakh" as "messiah", which would translate better as "anointed one" and "kedosh HaKedoshim" as "most holy" would be better translated as "Holy of Holies."

24. (K) Seventy weeks are decreed upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem until the coming of an anointed prince shall be seven weeks; then for sixty two weeks it shall be built again, with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
26. And after sixty two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and nothing will be left to him; and the people of a prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are decreed
27. And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.

also the timeline can be found here with a good explanation

http://messiahtruth.com/daniel9.html

this site gives a good explanation of the events and it gives a timeline also at the bottom.

The sheer usage and application of the Jewish calendar(which was used by Daniel) not the gregorian calendar the claim to jesus having fulfilled this does not stand.

The anointed prince who gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem was Cyrus who in the book of Ezra chapter 1 gave the order for the city to be rebuilt.

The people of the prince that came to destroy everything was that of Alexander the Great. Who came and destroyed much of the city.

The anointed one cut off was a murdered High Priest just before the Maccabean revolt named Onias II.

The one who made a strong covenant with many was Antiocus Epiphanes with which he halted sacrifices to G-d, and offered an abominable sacrifice(a pig) on the altar.

The decreed destruction that was poured out on the desolator was that of the Revot against Antiochus Epiphanes(the desolator) thus named the Maccabean Revolt.

when you add it all up jesus doesn't make much sense in there..

[commonman]

The only problem I find with this assesment is that the calendar being used is the Jewish Calendar and not the gregorian calendar. Which would put us right in line with the maccabean revolt.

Can you please explain why the Jewish Calendar would count years so differently than the Gregorian calendar? I thought, that like our modern leap year, every several years, an additional month is added to Jewish calendar to reconcile the Jewish calendar to the solar year, which is what the Gregorian calendar is based on. In fact, this year is a perfect example. There are two months this year by the name Abib or Nissan. (Did I spell those correctly?)

[Theoferrum]

You ere, not knowing the Scriptures.

The decree to "restore and rebuild Jerusalem" was NOT given by Cyrus, it was given to Nehemah and is recorded in the first chapters of his book.

Cyrus gave permission to rebuild the Temple, no more, and no less, as the enemies of the Jews of the time took full advantage of. You will search in vain for any mention of rebuilding the City of Jerusalem or its walls in the book of Ezra.

They had to wait an additional seventy years to rebuild the city and the wall, under much persecution by their enemies.

The other verse that people use to say that Cyrus gave the decree is in Isaiah however, if you look at the context it is clear that it is Y'hova himself who says to Jerusalem "you will be rebuilt" :

Is 44:24 :

I am Y'hova that makes all things:

That stretches forth the heavens alone.

That spreads abroad the earth by myself.

That frustrates the tokens of the liars and makes diviners mad.

That turns wise men backward and maks their knowledge foolish.

That confirms the word of his servant and performs the counsel of his messengers.

That saith to Jerusalem You shall be inhabited and to the cities of Judah, You shall be built and I will raise up the decayed places thereof.

That says to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers.

That says of Cyrus, He is my shepherd and shall perform all my pleasure.

Even saying to Jerusalem, You shall be built and to the temple, Your foundation shall be laid.

It is not Cyrus that says to Jerusalem "you shall be built" but it is clearly, in context, Y'hova himself that says to Jerusalem "you will be built."

As far as the actual calender that is to be used, it must be the Jubilee Calender (Sir Anderson was close but he forgot this point) which adds a Jubille Year every 49 years. In other words, even though only 49 years ticked off the clock, fifty years are actually counted.

I have a article on this on my web site for those who are interested.

http://thebookofdaniel.lbgo.com/jubileecalender.html

[InChristAlways]

1) The words commonly looked at to associate this with jesus is Bar Enash ( בר אנש ) which means “son of man” in Aramaic. If you look closely at the Aramaic it does not say Bar Enash but rather K’var Enash ( כבר אנש ) which says “Like a son of man” many Christians ignore the Kaf ( כ ) and immediately seize the phrase bar enash to be pointing to jesus. Is that really what the phrase says? The phrase itself is a similie which is a comparison using like or as. This phrase here is comparing something to a “son of man.” What this is, is not exactly explained nor is it given but many have said this is talking about the nation of Israel or an angelic figure. Most probably it is comparing the Nation of Israel. Nowhere in the GNT is jesus ever called "like a son of man." To associate the two would be pointless and undoable since it("like a son of man") is never used for jesus.

3) Many other commentators like to place this verse as to relating to the nation of Israel. For example they place the “Like a son of man” as personification of the Nation of Israel just as it has before (Exodus 4:22). In Exodus 4:22 Israel is called “G-d’s first-born son” and is personified all through the Tanakh as a male child.
Of course, unless one believes in revelation of the NT, then I suppose it will just remain a mystery. Chapt 14 indeed shows one like "unto a son of man" on the cloud and after this, comes the Grapes of the Wrath of God . Jesus is also describes as a Lamb, Son of God and Lion of the tribe of Judah. My views on this book isn't very compatible with mainstream churches and why I am relegated to "unorthodox" forums LOL. I just thought this was interesing.

[i]reve 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

reve 5:[i]5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals." 6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Can you please explain why the Jewish Calendar would count years so differently than the Gregorian calendar? I thought, that like our modern leap year, every several years, an additional month is added to Jewish calendar to reconcile the Jewish calendar to the solar year, which is what the Gregorian calendar is based on. In fact, this year is a perfect example. There are two months this year by the name Abib or Nissan. (Did I spell those correctly?)

The hebrew calender, not a solar calender. It is much more inaccurate when it comes to the seaons than a solar calender. Because of the drift, rather than an extra day every four years, there is an extra month added.

[shunyadragon]

The hebrew calender, not a solar calender. It is much more inaccurate when it comes to the seaons than a solar calender. Because of the drift, rather than an extra day every four years, there is an extra month added.

This is very similar to the Chinese calender that is a lunar calender the keeps in with the seasons with a periodic added month.

[shunyadragon]

Of course, unless one believes in revelation of the NT, then I suppose it will just remain a mystery. Chapt 14 indeed shows one like "unto a son of man" on the cloud and after this, comes the Grapes of the Wrath of God . Jesus is also describes as a Lamb, Son of God and Lion of the tribe of Judah. My views on this book isn't very compatible with mainstream churches and why I am relegated to "unorthodox" forums LOL. I just thought this was interesing.

[i]reve 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

reve 5:[i]5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals." 6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Coming in with revelation is a bit of topic, because the book is an interpretation of various parts of the OT in a prophetic dream, which is similar in many ways to others that were written at the time. I have difficulty excepting any specific interpretation to this bad dream.

[InChristAlways]

[i]Daniel 7:13-14 “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like a son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14. And there he was given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
reve 14: 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. " 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Coming in with revelation is a bit of topic, because the book is an interpretation of various parts of the OT in a prophetic dream, which is similar in many ways to others that were written at the time. I have difficulty excepting any specific interpretation to this bad dream.Hi shunyadragron. Off topic?
If revelation is the "Day of the Lord" as spoken of in scripture, it would indeed be a bad dream for those that the Wraths are falling on, but no so for those that it does not fall on. Even Gog-Magog is used in both the OT and revelation[QUOTE[http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47585[/QUOTE]Most christians think it refers to another future coming of the Lord [highly unlikely as that would make all of the Prophets and Jesus false]. So would that include the "bad/good dreams" of Daniel what would happen to "his people" in the last days"? Even Jacob gathered his sons around him and told them what would befall them on the "Last Days" and this appears to be after the "messiah/scepter of Judah" shows up [note Isaiah 28 and the "precious cornerstone"]. Danial 12 and revelation both show a "raising of the dead" and Michael standing up with His people.

What does the last days mean to the jews? The Day of the Lord in scripture also appears to be against Daniel's people and in fact, revelation appears to be against and the fulfillment of the curses of Deut 28 upon Israel for crucifying the "Lion of the tribe of Judah", and I suppose that is why I study that book in relation to the day of the Lord. God bless.

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:

"Seventy sevens are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint The Most Holy. {25} Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven sevens, and threescore and two sevens: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 12:1 And, at that time, will Michael, the great ruler who standeth for the sons of thy people, make a stand, and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, up to that time,--and, at that time, shall thy people, be delivered, every one found written in the hook; 2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,--these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;

revelaton 12:7 And there came to be war in heaven: Michael and his messengers [going forth] to war with the dragon; and, the dragon, fought, and his messengers; .......10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying--Now, hath come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; because the accuser of our brethren hath been cast out, who was accusing them before our God day and night; 11 And, they, overcame him by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of their witnessing word, and they loved not their life, even unto death. 12 For this cause, be joyful, O heavens, and ye who, therein, are tabernacling. Woe! unto the earth, and the sea, because the Adversary hath come down unto you, having great wrath--knowing that, but a little season, he hath.

[Menachem]

Hi shunyadragron. Off topic?

Yes InChristalways it is a bit off topic. This is a Judaism forum not christianity forum. PLus the topic is Daniel 7:13-14 in the Tanakh(Hebrew Bible) not Revelations in the Christian bible.

Shuny was right on track.

[InChristAlways]

Yes InChristalways it is a bit off topic. This is a Judaism forum not christianity forum. PLus the topic is Daniel 7:13-14 in the Tanakh(Hebrew Bible) not Revelations in the Christian bible.

Shuny was right on track.Hebrew Bible? So the christian Bible shows our messiah coming, but the Hebrew Bible shows the messiah didn't come?
Ok, this is from JPS translation. This shows the messiah as one like a "son of man" correct? This must be after He is killed and "resurrected" I believe.
If you don't use the "christian Bible", how the heck will you ever know what this means? Do you really believe the NT is the false Word of God???? If so, then we might as well throw out the Whole bible as it would never make any sense then. The only reason I can believe in the bible and God Himself is that It all harmonizes perfectly, that is if one Truly looks at it in the Spirit that God poured out to us as prophecied in the Tanakh. Oh well, I guess there are 2 different messiah's, one for the gentiles, and one later for the jews. Sorry about that.

(JPS1917 OT) Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said: 'Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the end of days.

(JPS1917 OT) Daniel 7 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of days, and he was brought near before Him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

reve 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

[Menachem]

Hebrew Bible? So the christian Bible shows our messiah coming, but the Hebrew Bible shows the messiah didn't come?
Ok, this is from JPS translation. This shows the messiah as one like a "son of man" correct? This must be after He is killed and "resurrected" I believe.

InChrist, The christain bible shows what the christains think is the messiah. The Jews dont accept the Greek New Testament. The JPS version of 1917 does not show that this is about messiah. That is your christological interpretation of the events in Daniel.



If you don't use the "christian Bible", how the heck will you ever know what this means? Do you really believe the NT is the false Word of God????

InCHrist, what makes you even remotely think that I care what the Christian bible says. I dont. I honestly dont see the Greek New Testament as a Jewish document it is meant for gentiles not for Jews no matter how much you want it to be.

If so, then we might as well throw out the Whole bible as it would never make any sense then. The only reason I can believe in the bible and God Himself is that It all harmonizes perfectly, that is if one Truly looks at it in the Spirit that God poured out to us as prophecied in the Tanakh. Oh well, I guess there are 2 different messiah's, one for the gentiles, and one later for the jews. Sorry about that.


Who's whole bible are you going to throw out yours or mine? Mine contains Genesis through Chronicles and I understand it fine. The Greek New testament and the Tanakh contradict each other around almost every turn. when I read the Christain bible for the first time I was not impressed I found it rather amusing at points.

There is simply one Jewish messiah to come you all just jumped on the bandwagon for the wrong one.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Hebrew Bible? So the christian Bible shows our messiah coming, but the Hebrew Bible shows the messiah didn't come?
Ok, this is from JPS translation. This shows the messiah as one like a "son of man" correct? This must be after He is killed and "resurrected" I believe.
If you don't use the "christian Bible", how the heck will you ever know what this means? Do you really believe the NT is the false Word of God???? If so, then we might as well throw out the Whole bible as it would never make any sense then. The only reason I can believe in the bible and God Himself is that It all harmonizes perfectly, that is if one Truly looks at it in the Spirit that God poured out to us as prophecied in the Tanakh. Oh well, I guess there are 2 different messiah's, one for the gentiles, and one later for the jews. Sorry about that.


The concept there are two different messiahs is the one that the Catholic church has adopted in recent years. The term 'son of man' is hebrew slang meaning 'common man'. And the way the Jewish faith knows trys to understand what it means is through it's own religious writings and oral tradition.

And why would someone of the Jewish faith believe that the New Testament was Gods word?? To the Jewish person, the New Testament is just like the Koran is to the Christian.

[InChristAlways]

The concept there are two different messiahs is the one that the Catholic church has adopted in recent years. The term 'son of man' is hebrew slang meaning 'common man'. And the way the Jewish faith knows trys to understand what it means is through it's own religious writings and oral tradition.

And why would someone of the Jewish faith believe that the New Testament was Gods word?? To the Jewish person, the New Testament is just like the Koran is to the Christian.HI SR. I understand and I belong to no church and ever since God came into my life 2 years ago before I retired, after I retired I now study scripture about 4 hours a day, both translating it as accurately as I can and harmonizing it.
Isaiah 28 shows the precious cornerstone coming, then vengeance and wrath on the rulers of Judah/Jerusalem after that. Most christians look at revelation as a futuristic science fiction book and also believe Jesus is coming back again for the "jews".
I believe like the jews do in that the messiah would accomplish all things at once, that the messiah would come, God's spirit would be poured out and still is everyday, then vengeance and wrath on His firstborn nation, Israel in order to "redeem" them. Because of this I am labeled anti jewish and a "heretic" because I view the bible fulfilled.
I am sorry if I may have offended you and I suppose Christians, jews, and muslims will just continue on their own seperate ways. God already came into my life and thru the Name of Jesus, I know I have eternal life just as Daniel states in chapt 12. God bless. Daniel 12:1 And, at that time, will Michael, the great ruler who standeth for the sons of thy people, make a stand, and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, up to that time,--and, at that time, shall thy people, be delivered, every one found written in the hook; 2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,--these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
(JPS1917 OT) Daniel 7 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of days, and he was brought near before Him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

reve 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

[Theoferrum]

I believe like the jews do in that the messiah would accomplish all things at once, that the messiah would come, God's spirit would be poured out and still is everyday, then vengeance and wrath on His firstborn nation, Israel in order to "redeem" them. Because of this I am labeled anti jewish and a "heretic" because I view the bible fulfilled.

Here, then, you reject Y'shua's own clear teaching on the postponement of the Kingdom due to the rejection of the leaders to his claim to be the Messiah. When they started plotting to kill him, he began to speak in parables to them, which parables pertain to the postponement of the re-establishment of the Kingdom. "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a Man that went on a long journey to receive a kingdom and he commanded his servants to occupy until his return..." (Hill paraphrase).

I also want to state here that it was not the entire Jewish nation that rejected his claims, as he had thousands of followers shortly after pentecost, which number included many of the priesthood. The problem is that it was the leaders (specifically the Sadducees), of the nation that rejected him and this led to judgment against the entire nation. The pharasees main problem was his claim to be the Son of God, but they agreed with the majority of his theology. It was that one point that they could not comprehend or accept and for this reason, per their conscience sake, they had to try him by the Torah in this instance.

The sadducees, on the other hand (which even the Pharasees said to beware of the teaching of the sadducees), solely had him executed to protect their positions of authority and, thus, their wallets.

This is not to hard to comprehend cause they same thing happens everyday, in just about every nation of the world, in one form or another.

Unfortunately, in this case, it had very profound ramifications.

The point to this is that maybe some of you might want to look at this man called Y'shua one more time, remembering that the leaders of the nation at the time probably didn't have the Jewish People's best interests at heart.

Only their wallets.

[InChristAlways]

Here, then, you reject Y'shua's own clear teaching on the postponement of the Kingdom due to the rejection of the leaders to his claim to be the Messiah. When they started plotting to kill him, he began to speak in parables to them, which parables pertain to the postponement of the re-establishment of the Kingdom. "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a Man that went on a long journey to receive a kingdom and he commanded his servants to occupy until his return..." (Hill paraphrase).

I also want to state here that it was not the entire Jewish nation that rejected his claims, as he had thousands of followers shortly after pentecost, which number included many of the priesthood. The problem is that it was the leaders (specifically the Sadducees), of the nation that rejected him and this led to judgment against the entire nation. The pharasees main problem was his claim to be the Son of God, but they agreed with the majority of his theology. It was that one point that they could not comprehend or accept and for this reason, per their conscience sake, they had to try him by the Torah in this instance.Hi SR. I agree with you and of course you are correct and most christians don't see that either as they fail to distingues between Judah and Israel in the OT prophecies.
The Kingdom was to be taken from the Jewish rulers/priests of Judah and given to the "lost sheep of Israel" whom God divoreced. Most prophecies are more against Judah than Israel. Look at what happens in Isaiah 28 after the "deliever" comes and who it is referring to, just as Jesus did. Also Jeremiah 17 mentions the "Sin of Judah", not Israel, and His anger would burn against them "forever/ages to ages"]. How else was Jesus to take over the rule from Judah and rule over Israel?

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, [i]2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

Isaih 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.

[Theoferrum]

Also Jeremiah 17 mentions the "Sin of Judah", not Israel, and His anger would burn against them "forever/ages to ages"]. How else was Jesus to take over the rule from Judah and rule over Israel?

You forget two things. First off is that Judah is Y'shua's literal family.

Second, Paul calls them "the remenant" of the nation during the Church age. There are many, many Jews that have accepted Y'shua as his Messsiah and thus the Tribes of Judah, Levi and Benjamin are intact through this remenant with Paul himself being from the tribe of Benjamin.

And thus it is that, during the Time of Jacob's Trouble which Christians call the tribulation, there will be, literally, 12000 Men from each tribe that proclaim the coming Kingdom throughout the entire world.

And, I might add, with the Jews themselves scattered to the four winds, and the amount of missionaries that the Anglo world has sent out, have perfectly placed these men througout the world, speaking the native language of the countries that they reside in so that, during the tribulation, the Gospel message will meet with trememdous amounts of conversions that the Revelation calls the Great Multitude.

[InChristAlways]

You forget two things. First off is that Judah is Y'shua's literal family.

Second, Paul calls them "the remenant" of the nation during the Church age. There are many, many Jews that have accepted Y'shua as his Messsiah and thus the Tribes of Judah, Levi and Benjamin are intact through this remenant with Paul himself being from the tribe of Benjamin.

And thus it is that, during the Time of Jacob's Trouble which Christians call the tribulation, there will be, literally, 12000 Men from each tribe that proclaim the coming Kingdom throughout the entire world.

And, I might add, with the Jews themselves scattered to the four winds, and the amount of missionaries that the Anglo world has sent out, have perfectly placed these men througout the world, speaking the native language of the countries that they reside in so that, during the tribulation, the Gospel message will meet with trememdous amounts of conversions that the Revelation calls the Great Multitude.Hi Jester. Good post. I know Jesus was of the House of Judah, and it was that house [note "Judas" the apostle]that betrayed and had Him crucified. Also note that Jesus is shown as a Lion of the tribe of Judah and Michael is also shown in Chapter 12 as in Daniel chapt 12.
Isn't is conceivable that revelation is the Lion of the tribe of Judah against the tribe of Judah itself, and just like Egypt's firstborn were killed, it is God's firstborn nation being sacrificed?
Just looking at OT scripture shows God will be like a Lion to them, just one of many scriptures against Israel/Judah. I just feel revelation is the destruction of Jerusalem based just on scripture itself.

HOsea 13:7 "So I will be to them like a lion; Like a leopard by the road I will lurk; 8 I will meet them like a bear deprived [of her cubs;] I will tear open their rib cage, And there I will devour them like a lion. The wild beast shall tear them. 9 " O Israel, you are destroyed, But your help [is] from Me.

[Theoferrum]

Hi Jester. Good post. I know Jesus was of the House of Judah, and it was that house [note "Judas" the apostle]that betrayed and had Him crucified. Also note that Jesus is shown as a Lion of the tribe of Judah and Michael is also shown in Chapter 12 as in Daniel chapt 12.

Actually, if you were to label a specfic tribe as the ones that crucified Y'shua it would be Levi who were the spiritual leaders of the day. In fact, if you think about it, it had to be Levi for this was the Theocratic Sacrifice and it had to be 'supervised' if you will, by the Priesthood that was instituted by God himself.

Isn't is conceivable that revelation is the Lion of the tribe of Judah against the tribe of Judah itself, and just like Egypt's firstborn were killed, it is God's firstborn nation being sacrificed?

I understand what you are saying here, but disagree with it for Y'shua was sacrificed so that no one else would have to be. That said, the Nation of Judah will experience similar things that Y'shua did at the crucifixion during the tribulation and even before then but God's judgment during the tribulation is going to be poured out on the entire world, not just Judah. Thus Peter tells us that "judgment BEGINS at the house of the Lord" which house would be specifically refering to Ephraim and Judah, but it ENDS with judgment against the Gentiles with the fall of Babylon at the end of the tribulation.


Just looking at OT scripture shows God will be like a Lion to them, just one of many scriptures against Israel/Judah. I just feel revelation is the destruction of Jerusalem based just on scripture itself.

HOsea 13:7 "So I will be to them like a lion; Like a leopard by the road I will lurk; 8 I will meet them like a bear deprived [of her cubs;] I will tear open their rib cage, And there I will devour them like a lion. The wild beast shall tear them. 9 " O Israel, you are destroyed, But your help [is] from Me.

However, the verse you are quoting above is SPECIFICALLY spoken against the northern nation of Ephraim to who Hosea was a prophet and not to the nation of Judah.

In fact, that verse is specifically because they have "rejected knowledge" (chapter 4) and God, therefore, rejects them from being "Priests" before him.

Ask yourself when was Ephraim ever the Priesthood when this was specifically given to Levi by Y'hova himself. The point is, in fact, that when the Levitical High Priest tour the Robe (against the commandment by Y'hova to Moses not to do so) the priesthood automatically reverted back to the firstborn tribe which, in this case, was Ephraim, where it has remained for the entire Church age but, when they reject knowledge and stumble over the stumbling stone (which, the prophet makes clear, both houses of Israel will do) then the Priesthood will automatically revert back to the tribe of Levi and, when it does, you will see them restore the Temple Sacrifices during the tribulation and they actually continue into the Millenium as the closing chapters of Ezekiel make perfectly clear as does the New Covenant passage in Jeremiah (30-33) when the House of David (which Y'shua left "desolate") will also be restored.

[PioneerSDA]

Dear Eliyosef,


I hope you and your family are blessed. Thank you for starting this very interesting thread and I’d like to comment on the subject but first I would like to bring a concern to your attention that I don’t think it was right for you and shunyadragon to gang up on ChristInMe just because he is a Christian and disagrees with you on the topic. He was only trying to help.

My brother in Christ, ChristInMe and I disagree with the most important doctrine to a Christian and that is who the Messiah is? He says that Yahweh sent Himself to be the Messiah and I believe Yahweh sent His only born (uncreated) Son to be born as a human to be our Messiah. But even though I disagree with a lot of things He and most of the Christians say I still feel Yahweh convicting me to stand up for His right to say it because I am a true Christian even if the whole world says I’m not because instead of believing of the unbliclical trinity, I believe in One God Yahweh and His only born Son.


[Yes InChristalways it is a bit off topic. This is a Judaism forum not christianity forum. PLus the topic is Daniel 7:13-14 in the Tanakh(Hebrew Bible) not Revelations in the Christian bible. Shuny was right on track.] quoted from eliyosef’s post #11

Not only is it not against the Judiasm forum guidelines for Christians to share their beliefs here but I believe it is very much encourged.

[This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the world religion of Judaism in general and also its relationship to Christianity.]quoted from Judaism Forum Guidelines [Revised 12/09/04] Last edited by Faramir : December 9th 2004 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Update

Also wasn’t your first post an invitation for everyone who held a diferent view than you to discuss the issue especially for Christians. You practically laid out the red carpet for us to join the debate when you said.

[First I want tell you about some of the popular thoughts about this verse.
1) Christains claim this is talking about jesus’ coming.] quoted from eliyosef’s post#1

Therefore, ChristInMe was not off topic for quoting the GNT in His post #12 “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.” Revelation 14:14 K.J.V. and He still wouldn’t be off topic if he quoted Revelation 1:13 “And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.” K.J.V. I believe He was answering the chalenge that you made to Christians in your first post.

[I would first like to deal with the Christian claim of this being about jesus: 1)…If you look closely at the Aramaic it does not say Bar Enash but rather K’var Enash ( כבר אנש ) which says “Like a son of man” many Christians ignore the Kaf ( כ ) and immediately seize the phrase bar enash to be pointing to jesus... Most probably it is comparing the Nation of Israel. Nowhere in the GNT is jesus ever called "like a son of man." To associate the two would be pointless and undoable since it("like a son of man") is never used for jesus.] quoted from eliyosef’s post #1

It was very important to you to believe that the the phrase “like the Son of Man” was never used for the Messiah. Wouldn’t it be equally important that this same phrase is never used for the nation of Israel?

I’ve only seen two more times where Daniel used similar language in his visions similar Daniel 7:13’s phrase “like the son of man” and both times He was not talking about Israel.

“And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips…”Daniel 10:16 King James Version
“Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man…”Daniel 10:18 King James Version

Both of these times it is clear that Daniel is talking about just one being (not a whole nation of beings) and just because he used the word “like” didn’t change this fact. Why should Daniel 7:13 be any different in interpreting prophecy? This is not the only time Daniel used the word “like” in his visions. Daniel left us a lot of examples of how he used the word “like.”

When Daniel says “like a lion” in Daniel 2:35 he is talking about one lion and not a whole nation of lions. Even in the same chapter as where Daniel says “like the son of man” he says “like a lion” Daniel 7:4 and he means one lion, not a whole nation of lions and when he says “like to a bear” Daniel 7:5 he means one bear and not a whole nation of bears and when he says “like a leopard” Daniel 7:6 he means one leopard and not a whole nation of leopards so why would Daniel 7:13 be any different. Surely when Daniel says “like the son of man” he mans one human and not a whole nation of humans.

Did you say Christians believe this is talking about the Messiah’s first coming or second coming? Why would they believe this? I believe it is talking about the Messiah’s ascension.

“ So I rejoice and am glad. Even my body has hope, because you will not leave me in the grave. You will not let your holy one rot.” Psalms16: 9,10 New Century Version

“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.” Daniel 7:13 King James Version

“and speak to him, saying,'Thus says Yahweh of Armies, "Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: and he shall grow up out of his place; and he shall build the temple of Yahweh; even he shall build the temple of Yahweh; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule on his throne; and he shall be a priest on his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” Zechariah 6:12,13

“A Psalm by David. Yahweh says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet." Psalms 110:1 World English Bible

My sincere prayer for you and your family “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him” Ephesians 1:17

[InChristAlways]

Isn't is conceivable that revelation is the Lion of the tribe of Judah against the tribe of Judah itself, and just like Egypt's firstborn were killed, it is God's firstborn nation being sacrificed?
However, the verse you are quoting above is SPECIFICALLY spoken against the northern nation of Ephraim to who Hosea was a prophet and not to the nation of Judah.

In fact, that verse is specifically because they have "rejected knowledge" (chapter 4) and God, therefore, rejects them from being "Priests" before him.
Hi Jester. If we are to understand Daniel we have to understand revelation, otherwise speculations and theories will be a dime a dozen as they are now [there are already sites up on the false prophecies of Daniel].

Revelation 12 shows Michael and his messengers against the "dragon", and Daniel 12 shows Michael will stand up for the people who come to believe unto the Messiah sent from God.
Revelation shows 12 tribes which would be the 2 nations, Judah[Levi] and Israel, correct? Also a temple and worshippers are being measured[chapt 11], and as far as I know, gentiles do not worship in temples


Notice revelation 14 It matches Isaiah 5 perfectly and I assume that is why it is symbolically shown as the Grapes of Wrath in that chapter.[just one of the "Days of the Lord" mentioned in that book. Note also chapt reve 19/ezekiel 39 supper of God/Sacrificial Meal].

Anyway, I am pretty much thru here on this topic of Daniel, as revelation is the key to solving Daniel and all of the OT and NT prophecies agains Israel/Judah, and though the scriptures only show ONE DAY OF THE LORD and ONE RESURRECTION, revelation shows numerous ones throughout it. Good luck and God bless.


Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected to bring forth [good] grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? [i]5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; [And] break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. 6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it." 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts [is] the house of Israel, And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant. He looked for justice, but behold, oppression; For righteousness, but behold, a cry [for help.]

reve 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Hebrew Bible? So the christian Bible shows our messiah coming, but the Hebrew Bible shows the messiah didn't come?
Ok, this is from JPS translation. This shows the messiah as one like a "son of man" correct? This must be after He is killed and "resurrected" I believe.
If you don't use the "christian Bible", how the heck will you ever know what this means? Do you really believe the NT is the false Word of God???? If so, then we might as well throw out the Whole bible as it would never make any sense then. The only reason I can believe in the bible and God Himself is that It all harmonizes perfectly, that is if one Truly looks at it in the Spirit that God poured out to us as prophecied in the Tanakh. Oh well, I guess there are 2 different messiah's, one for the gentiles, and one later for the jews. Sorry about that.

(JPS1917 OT) Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said: 'Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the end of days.

(JPS1917 OT) Daniel 7 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of days, and he was brought near before Him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

reve 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

The problem as I see it is that the term 'son of man' is very common in the tanakh, and it is not a title, or a super duper code word for 'messiah'. The way a Jewish person would interpret that kind of phrase is different that the ex-genesis of a Christian, who has a different religious adgenda. Also, the '70 weeks' prophecy is vague, and you can find varioius different chrisitan missionary groups that explain how this 70 week prophecy was 'fullfilled' by naming dates, but they don't even agree with each other!

When you have an indetermident start date, a indeterminate end date , you can make up anything you want to want to make it look like a timeframe is 'fullfilled'.

As for the term 'son of man', why should it mean anything different that the other dozens of times it was mentioned in the tanakh?? In other words, meaning 'man'. Without trying to justify it with books written a few hundred years later, how can you justify that phrase meaning more than what it was customarily used for? Remember, it is almost universally acknowledged by biblical schoalrs that the book of Daniel was comipled
and set down in it's current form in the second century b.c.e.

From http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/daniel.html

[/quote]
W. Sibley Towner writes: "Daniel is one of the few OT books that can be given a fairly firm date. In the form in which we have it (perhaps without the additions of 12:11, 12), the book must have been given its final form some time in the years 167-164 B.C. This dating is based upon two assumptions: first, that the authors lived at the later end of the historical surveys that characterize Daniel 7-12; and second, that prophecy is accurate only when it is given after the fact, whereas predictions about the future tend to run astray. Based upon these assumptions, the references to the desecration of the Temple and the 'abomination that makes desolate' in 8:9-12; 9:27; and 11:31 must refer to events known to the author. The best candidates for the historical referents of these events are the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the erection in it of a pagan altar in the autumn of 167 B.C. by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The inaccurate description of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death in 11:40-45, on the other hand, suggests that the author did not know of those events, which occurred late in 164 or early in 163 B.C. The roots of the hagiographa (idealizing stories) about Daniel and his friends in chaps. 1-6 may date to an earlier time, but the entire work was given its final shape in 164 B.C." (Harper's Bible Commentary, p. 696)
[/quote]

The "prophecies" of the book of Daniel seem to be accurate until 167 B.C.E.
then suddenly become totally inaccurate. A good case has been made for the '70 weeks' to refer to era in Antioch.

[InChristAlways]

The problem as I see it is that the term 'son of man' is very common in the tanakh, and it is not a title, or a super duper code word for 'messiah'. The way a Jewish person would interpret that kind of phrase is different that the ex-genesis of a Christian, who has a different religious adgenda. Also, the '70 weeks' prophecy is vague, and you can find varioius different chrisitan missionary groups that explain how this 70 week prophecy was 'fullfilled' by naming dates, but they don't even agree with each other!The "prophecies" of the book of Daniel seem to be accurate until 167 B.C.E.
then suddenly become totally inaccurate. A good case has been made for the '70 weeks' to refer to era in Antioch. Hi SR. Thanks for the respectfull response. I understand what you are saying. Yes, the christian churches are about as divided as sliced pizza on interpretations [and the nature of the church "creeds"] and so I won't delve into it here as I believe all things were fulfilled "bibilcally", while others believe some things were, others think it is still all future. Being that I do believe in Christ, I also have to believe what Christ said here, regardless of the church "creeds" today, and I am sure Israel would believe this too IF they believed in Christ also as the "annointed" Savior. Luke 21:22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. I have "Christ in me" so I don't look for a future "physcial return" of Him. This site explains the divisions in beliefs on the churches. (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/green-david_04_01.html)http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/green-david_04_01.html (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/green-david_04_01.html)
It was only after I was translating and studying the book of revelation that the scriptures opened up to me like a beam of Light and that book just lays there unstudied, though it follows Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Exodus, Daniel etc.
Anyway, I understand where you are coming from and we just have to determine what "New Things" God was to bring into the world, with the help of the Spirit of Christ in us that God promised to pour out on His elect. God bless.

Isaiah 42:6 "I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles, 7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house. 8 I [am] the LORD, that My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. [i]9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them."

Daniel 12:1 And, at that time, will Michael, the great ruler who standeth for the sons of thy people, make a stand, and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, up to that time,--and, at that time, shall thy people, be delivered, every one found written in the hook; 2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,--these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;

revelaton 12:7 And there came to be war in heaven: Michael and his messengers [going forth] to war with the dragon; and, the dragon, fought, and his messengers;10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying--Now, hath come the salvation, and the

[Menachem]

Dear Eliyosef,


I hope you and your family are blessed. Thank you for starting this very interesting thread and I’d like to comment on the subject but first I would like to bring a concern to your attention that I don’t think it was right for you and shunyadragon to gang up on ChristInMe just because he is a Christian and disagrees with you on the topic. He was only trying to help.

First, we did not "gang up" on anyone. I simply stated that he was off topic of the thread topic.

Second, His help is what I would call a mishelp when compared to the Aramaic of Daniel

My brother in Christ, ChristInMe and I disagree with the most important doctrine to a Christian and that is who the Messiah is? He says that Yahweh sent Himself to be the Messiah and I believe Yahweh sent His only born (uncreated) Son to be born as a human to be our Messiah. But even though I disagree with a lot of things He and most of the Christians say I still feel Yahweh convicting me to stand up for His right to say it because I am a true Christian even if the whole world says I’m not because instead of believing of the unbliclical trinity, I believe in One God Yahweh and His only born Son.

Ok and then.....

Not only is it not against the Judiasm forum guidelines for Christians to share their beliefs here but I believe it is very much encourged.

[This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the world religion of Judaism in general and also its relationship to Christianity.]quoted from Judaism Forum Guidelines [Revised 12/09/04] Last edited by Faramir : December 9th 2004 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Update

True, However, Dee Dee Warren established in another thread that the thread starter has the power in determining what the topic of the thread is.

see this post (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=673640&postcount=100)

I am the thread starter O Hyper One. I have the right to narrow the focus which I have repeatedly. Learn the rules.

see also board ettiquite (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/faq.php?faq=campus_decorum#faq_campus_decorum_etiquette): Board Etiquette
Please respect the wishes of the thread starter to keep a thread on topic when requested and do not post using all caps, this includes profiles and signature


Also wasn’t your first post an invitation for everyone who held a diferent view than you to discuss the issue especially for Christians. You practically laid out the red carpet for us to join the debate when you said.

[First I want tell you about some of the popular thoughts about this verse.
1) Christains claim this is talking about jesus’ coming.] quoted from eliyosef’s post#1

Therefore, ChristInMe was not off topic for quoting the GNT in His post #12 “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.” Revelation 14:14 K.J.V. and He still wouldn’t be off topic if he quoted Revelation 1:13 “And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.” K.J.V. I believe He was answering the chalenge that you made to Christians in your first post.

Actually it is off topic. I did not leave the avenue open to comment on the GNT but the Tanakh and the rendering of Daniel. What my claim was that misuse of the passage in Daniel and an examination of it from the Jewish point of view. In Other words "Prove in the Tanakh where 'son of man' is to be the title of the Messiah."

at the end of my post I posted "what do you all think about this summation"

or did you miss it?

So per the forum rules I am exercising my right as the thread starter to narrow it to the Tanakh. as it was originally intended with the first post.

It was very important to you to believe that the the phrase “like the Son of Man” was never used for the Messiah. Wouldn’t it be equally important that this same phrase is never used for the nation of Israel?

I’ve only seen two more times where Daniel used similar language in his visions similar Daniel 7:13’s phrase “like the son of man” and both times He was not talking about Israel.

“And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips…”Daniel 10:16 King James Version
“Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man…”Daniel 10:18 King James Version



Both of these times it is clear that Daniel is talking about just one being (not a whole nation of beings) and just because he used the word “like” didn’t change this fact. Why should Daniel 7:13 be any different in interpreting prophecy? This is not the only time Daniel used the word “like” in his visions. Daniel left us a lot of examples of how he used the word “like.”

When Daniel says “like a lion” in Daniel 2:35 he is talking about one lion and not a whole nation of lions. Even in the same chapter as where Daniel says “like the son of man” he says “like a lion” Daniel 7:4 and he means one lion, not a whole nation of lions and when he says “like to a bear” Daniel 7:5 he means one bear and not a whole nation of bears and when he says “like a leopard” Daniel 7:6 he means one leopard and not a whole nation of leopards so why would Daniel 7:13 be any different. Surely when Daniel says “like the son of man” he mans one human and not a whole nation of humans.

Did you say Christians believe this is talking about the Messiah’s first coming or second coming? Why would they believe this? I believe it is talking about the Messiah’s ascension.

“ So I rejoice and am glad. Even my body has hope, because you will not leave me in the grave. You will not let your holy one rot.” Psalms16: 9,10 New Century Version

“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.” Daniel 7:13 King James Version

“and speak to him, saying,'Thus says Yahweh of Armies, "Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: and he shall grow up out of his place; and he shall build the temple of Yahweh; even he shall build the temple of Yahweh; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule on his throne; and he shall be a priest on his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” Zechariah 6:12,13

“A Psalm by David. Yahweh says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet." Psalms 110:1 World English Bible

My sincere prayer for you and your family “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him” Ephesians 1:17

I will answer the rest of these at a later time however Zechariah 6:12,13,Psalms 110:1,Psalms16: 9,10 are not the topic of this thread. These are for either "Is jesus the Jewish Messiah" thread or the "Messianic Prophecies" thread.

The rest will be answered when I have more time and resources

Shalom,

[InChristAlways]

Here we can see Rashi was associating the words Dominion (שלטן) and Kingdom (מלכותא) and (מלכותה) and also the word for Nations/Peoples (עממיא) which is used in both Daniel 7:14 and Genesis 49:10(Targum Onkelos). That I believe is the rationale that Rashi was using when he was associating this with the King Messiah.

3) Many other commentators like to place this verse as to relating to the nation of Israel. For example they place the “Like a son of man” as personification of the Nation of Israel just as it has before (Exodus 4:22). In Exodus 4:22 Israel is called “G-d’s first-born son” and is personified all through the Tanakh as a male child.


Me personally I think that the nation of Israel fits in better with “like a son of man” since it is a similie comparing it to something that is not a man but rather "like a man". I can also see Rashi’s point about how this can be about King Messiah once the reason and the association is outlined.

What do you all think of this assessment? Any thoughts? Hi Elisyosef. Your focus is so much on the Nation of Israel, instead of the redeemer and Savior who is to come for them and the world, that I am afraid even I can't properly go head to head with you on this.
You are still awaiting on a messiah, while our messiah has already came, as He was also to serve as a Light to us gentiles,.
Revelation already helped solve most of the bible for me, so I am presently working on it and it is almost like interpreting Ezekiel in most ways, and practically is Ezekiel.
Anyway, good luck to you and Israel on finding the answers in your scriptures dear friend. God bless.

(JPS1917 OT) Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time; and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. [i]2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.