John 12:41--JWs?

[joelkaki]

How do you JW's deal with John 12:41? It seems rather clear that the Holy, Holy, Holies of Isaiah 6 as well as the LORD, the King of Hosts, is applied to Jesus.

Joel

[NonTrinitarian]

[/QUOTE] How do you JW's deal with John 12:41? It seems rather clear that the Holy, Holy, Holies of Isaiah 6 as well as the LORD, the King of Hosts, is applied to Jesus.

Joel It seems you and I have a rather differing view on the definition of the word "clear". An example of "clear" would be saying that Jesus is differentiated from God at Revelation 1:1. Now you can argue away that "God" doesn’t mean "God" as in the sense of GOD but rather it only means "God the Father" but it is "clear" that whatever definition of God you want to use, Jesus is distinguished from that God. Does John 12:41 provide a "clear" identification of Jesus with Jehovah? I would say it doesn’t even offer a blurred identification of the two. Note the account:

"Jesus spoke these things and went off and hid from them. But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, so that the word of Isaiah [53:1] the prophet was fulfilled which he said: ‘Jehovah, who has believed our report, and to whom has the arm of Jehovah been revealed?’ The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah [6:10] said: ‘He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them.’ Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him."—John 12:36-41, NW.

By noting all the verses we can understand what John said Isaiah "saw". I have put in bold what John said Isaiah "saw". You automatically assumed, due to your belief that Jesus is Jehovah, that John was saying he "saw his glory" in the sense of actually seeing Jesus (YHWH in Hebrew) with his eyes in the vision at Isaiah 6 The bold words above should point out to you this is not what John was saying the glory Isaiah saw was.

Note Jesus performed "many signs" but no one was putting faith in them. Why? Because they didn’t see him with their literal eyes? No! They saw them with their eyes and yet John says they were blind. John then explains that Isaiah did see with his eyes of faith. He explains that Isaiah saw Jesus’ "glory" by quoting Isaiah 53:1 where he says "the arm of Jehovah (who is Jesus) been revealed" to him. Note the word "revealed". Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus when God "revealed" him to Jesus. Now what was the glory of Jesus that Jehovah revealed to Isaiah? Read the account at Isaiah 53:



53 Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of

Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? 2 And he will come up like a twig

before one, and like a root out of waterless land. No stately form does he

have, nor any splendor; and when we shall see him, there is not the

appearance so that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for

having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one

’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account. 4 Truly

our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore

them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and

afflicted. 5 But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being

crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him,

and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us. 6 Like sheep we

have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his own way that we have

turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error of us all to meet up with

that one. 7 He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted;

yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to

the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute,

he also would not open his mouth.

8 Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will

concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was

severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my

people he had the stroke. 9 And he will make his burial place even with the

wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he

had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth.Isaiah first sees all the things Jesus goes through and how he faithfully endures them. That in itself is a glory to Jesus and a powerful demonstration of his loyalty. But note further in the same chapter more of the glory of Jesus that Isaiah "saw".

10 But Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him; he made him sick. If

you will set his soul as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he

will prolong [his] days, and in his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will

succeed. 11 Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be

satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will

bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will

bear. 12 For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it

will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the

fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the

transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of

many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.Now THAT’s the "glory" Isaiah saw regarding the Messiah. It was that "glory" that John said Isaiah had seen in which the people in Jesus day did not see. That the word "saw" refers to seeing the fulfillment of Jesus as the Messiah and all that he would be rewarded with rather than a literal seeing of the person of Jesus at Isaiah 6 obvious when we look at the whole context. In fact, John condemns them for NOT being able to SEE Jesus’ glory. He then quotes Isaiah 6:10 to show why they cannot see it. A lack of faith.

If you take John’s argument to mean that John was referring to literally seeing Jesus at Isaiah 6 you’ve blown the whole logic of John’s point. He wasn’t arguing that Isaiah saw the literal person of Jesus at Isaiah 6 (though Isaiah may have seen Jesus in that vision) and thus condemning the people in his day for not being able to see Jesus’ glory. John is contrasting Isaiah WITH the wicked people.

They SHOULD be able to see Jesus’ glory the same as Isaiah saw his glory. The whole point of John’s argument is that Isaiah DID see Jesus’ glory and they SHOULD but instead do not. In fact, that’s how the whole conversation got started in the first place! They had all these miracles to witness and yet they couldn’t see the glory of Jesus because they had no faith. In contrast, John says Isaiah did see the glory of Jesus and he spoke about it.

By arguing that John was referring to Isaiah literally seeing Jesus in Isaiah 6 you have destroyed the whole context of these verses and John’s reasoning point. It is obvious John was not talking about literally seeing Jesus in John 12:36-40 and so it is a total stretch to all of a sudden switch from a spiritual seeing to literal seeing in the very next verse. Rather than guess at what John was saying Isaiah "saw", simply listen to what John said Isaiah saw. John clearly said the "arm of Jehovah" was "revealed" to Isaiah and he "saw his glory" (from the rest of Isaiah 53), something that the wicked people in Jesus’ day should have seen too.

[One Bad Pig]

Interesting that you would jump to Isaiah 53 (which I agree refers to Jesus), and avoid dealing with the context of Isaiah 6:9-10 (namely, the first 8 verses of Isaiah 6):


1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lofty; and the hem of his robe filled the temple. 2 Seraphs were in attendance above him; each had six wings: with two they covered their faces, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. 3 And one called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD [YHWH] of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory." 4 The pivots on the thresholds shook at the voices of those who called, and the house filled with smoke. 5 And I said: "Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD[YHWH] of hosts!"
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. 7 The seraph touched my mouth with it and said: "Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out." 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I; send me!" 9 And he said, "Go and say to this people: 'Keep listening, but do not comprehend; keep looking, but do not understand.' 10 Make the minds of this people dull, and stop their ears, and shut their eyes, so that they may not look with their eyes, and listen with their ears, and comprehend with their minds, and turn and be healed."
Who did Isaiah say he saw?

Now, if this is a prophecy about Jesus (as John avers), who is the referent in v. 41? Even my ueber-liberal Oxford study bible says it was Christ.

Unless there's a contradiction here, YHWH=Jesus.

[NonTrinitarian]

Interesting that you would jump to Isaiah 53 (which I agree refers to Jesus), and avoid dealing with the context of Isaiah 6:9-10 (namely, the first 8 verses of Isaiah 6):


1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lofty; and the hem of his robe filled the temple. 2 Seraphs were in attendance above him; each had six wings: with two they covered their faces, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. 3 And one called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD [YHWH] of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory." 4 The pivots on the thresholds shook at the voices of those who called, and the house filled with smoke. 5 And I said: "Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD[YHWH] of hosts!"
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. 7 The seraph touched my mouth with it and said: "Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out." 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I; send me!" 9 And he said, "Go and say to this people: 'Keep listening, but do not comprehend; keep looking, but do not understand.' 10 Make the minds of this people dull, and stop their ears, and shut their eyes, so that they may not look with their eyes, and listen with their ears, and comprehend with their minds, and turn and be healed."
Who did Isaiah say he saw?

Now, if this is a prophecy about Jesus (as John avers), who is the referent in v. 41? Even my ueber-liberal Oxford study bible says it was Christ.

Unless there's a contradiction here, YHWH=Jesus.Obviously you didn’t understand my post so I urge you to go read it again. Where in that post did I say the one in verse 41 was not Jesus? No where! That you misunderstood that simple point is amazing. The whole point of my post is that Isaiah was referring to the Christ and that he "saw" his glory while the people in Jesus’ day did not see it.

You have assumed that Jesus meant "saw" in the sense of literally seeing. But Jesus was contrasting Isaiah’s ‘seeing’ to the religious leaders in Jesus’ day ‘not seeing’. Jesus wasn’t saying the people in his day had not seen the Messiah in a physical sense. They were not literally blind. They didn’t see in the sense of recognizing the Messiah and his glory. Jesus contrasts their inability to "see" with the fact that Isaiah did "see" the Messiah’s glory. I then quoted the rest of Isaiah 53 to show you the "glory" that Isaiah "saw" regarding the Messiah. This is the glory the religious leaders did not see and Jesus was condemning them for it, noting how the prophet Isaiah did see it and spoke of it.

Furthermore, it is pure assertion on your part that Jesus was referring to Isaiah 6:8 instead of Isaiah 53. True, it involves some assertion on my part to say Jesus was referring to Isaiah 53. However, referring to Isaiah 53 makes more sense than 6:8 because Jesus was contrasting what Isaiah saw with what the crowds could not see (but should have been able to see). If you jump from a figurative seeing of the crowds to a literal seeing of Isaiah like you seem to want to do, you destroy Jesus’ whole argument! Jesus was not referring to the literal seeing of Isaiah 6:8. He only referred to Isaiah 6 to describe their blindness. The glory of the Messiah that Isaiah "saw" was in Isaiah 53 and Jesus was condemning the people for not seeing it as well.

[barryrob]

How do you JW's deal with John 12:41? It seems rather clear that the Holy, Holy, Holies of Isaiah 6 as well as the LORD, the King of Hosts, is applied to Jesus.

Joel
A little overview of John 12:41:-
*** w51 4/1 Commissioning of Witnesses in the Time of the End ***

At John 12:39 the apostle quotes Isaiah’s prophecy in connection with Jesus’ work and then adds: "Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him." (NW) The trinitarian clergy say that this proves the doctrine of the trinity and that the Jehovah whom Isaiah saw in glory in the temple was the prehuman Jesus, the Word of God. But this is a hasty conclusion on their part, as appears from John’s full account, which we here quote: "Jesus spoke these things and went off and hid from them. But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, so that the word of Isaiah [53:1] the prophet was fulfilled which he said: ‘Jehovah, who has believed our report, and to whom has the arm of Jehovah been revealed?’ The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah [6:10] said: ‘He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them.’ Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him."—John 12:36-41, NW.

What "things" did Isaiah say "because he saw his glory"? Well, John quotes Isaiah here twice, first quoting Isaiah 53:1 concerning the "arm of Jehovah" and then quoting Isaiah 6:10 concerning the temple vision. At Isaiah 53:1 the "arm of Jehovah" is Christ Jesus. At Isaiah 6:10 the speaker at the temple is Jehovah, but he includes his Son with him when he says: "Who will go for us?" that is, for me and my Son. Thus we see that the prehuman Jesus was associated with Jehovah in his glory at the temple, and hence John could rightly say Isaiah here saw his glory and spoke about him, "the arm of Jehovah." Certainly Jesus the Greater Isaiah had not sent himself, but Jehovah at the temple did so, for John here applies Isaiah 6:10 to Jesus as the Sent One toward whom this prophecy was first fulfilled, after Jesus had ridden into Jerusalem and offered himself as King and had cleansed the temple. At that time Jesus was not in "his glory", but the Jewish leaders had vilified him and had conspired to kill him.

The same was true where Matthew 13:14, 15 applies Isaiah’s prophecy to Jesus, for there, too, the religious leaders had formed a conspiracy to destroy him. (Matt. 12:14; John 11:57) The glory of Jesus with his Father at the temple comes at the final and complete fulfillment of Malachi 3:1-4 in the year 1918, when Jehovah sends him as his Messenger of the covenant to judge and purify His consecrated people. Especially since his resurrection, Jesus is the reflection of Jehovah’s glory.—Heb. 1:2, 3; 2 Cor. 4:6. Also see page 215, ¶ 4.

The prophecy is worded like Jeremiah 1:9, 10 (AS) where God declares Jeremiah to be set over the nations and kingdoms, "to pluck up and to break down and to destroy and to overthrow, to build and to plant." Not that Jeremiah was himself actually to do such things to the nations and kingdoms, but he was to utter prophecies that these things would happen to them. It is worded also as when Ezekiel 43:3 says, "I came to destroy the city." Not that Ezekiel himself destroyed Jerusalem, but that he came to foretell the destruction.

Barryrob

[barryrob]

How do you JW's deal with John 12:41? It seems rather clear that the Holy, Holy, Holies of Isaiah 6 as well as the LORD, the King of Hosts, is applied to Jesus. Joel

It would seem that John 12:41 which reads "Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him" Jesus was refering to the texts found at Isaiah 6:1 which reads "In the year that King Uz·zi´ah died I, however, got to see Jehovah, sitting on a throne lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple."

As a large portion of Isaiah’s writings focuses on the foretold Messiah, who would rule as King of God’s Kingdom he seem to be reminding them that it was fortold they would not belevie in him as God's King etc; context:-

John 12:37-40 But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: "Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?" The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: "He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them."

Barryrob