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DarwinianJihadi
July 26th 2004, 11:35 PM
In some historical circles, there's a concept called "Climates of Opinon" made popular by Carl Becker some 70 years ago. This assumes that at any time there are commonalities in a society. These commonalities relate to what society believes that people should think. This isn't necessarily a conscious imposition. This is what the great majority of people believe and follow, and what society at almost every level - family, Church, the community - tries to subconsciously impose on every one.

Up until "modern" times, the predominant CoO of the West can be termed "Christianity." This is what that CoO said. That the existence of God was an unquestioned FACT. That the world was created for an ultimate, but to humans, unknowable purpose. This CoO also maintained that this world was perfect, but through sin and error, man fell from grace. BUT ... a way for atonement was possible according to this CoO. This was through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and attaining pardon from God through humility.

According to the Christian CoO, life on Earth was but a means to the desired goal of heaven. The material world was sinful. The body was sinful. Life was supposed to be a period of probation where Christians could prove their worth. There was also a Devil who was trying to corrupt men even further. In time, this CoO maintained, the material world would come to an end; the sinful would go to hell and the faithful would go to heaven with God.

This was pretty much the dominant CoO of the WEST up until modern times. In the 18th Century, there came a challenge to this CoO. It was called The Enlightenment. Some historians have called this the most profound revolution in human history. The Enlightenment CoO can be summed up in four basic tenets: 1) Man is not intrinsically depraved, evil, or sinful; 2) Man is capable of perfecting the good life here on Earth through the guidance of the light of reason and worldly experience; 3) Men's minds must be freed from ignorance and superstition (read religion), and men's bodies must be freed from tyranny; and 4) The Purpose of Life is...........

*drumroll please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
























LIFE ITSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's about the good life here on Earth instead of a supposed afterlife.

We had a taste of this earlier in the Renaissance when the idea that the body WASN'T sinful, and that life should be enjoyed was brought up by thinkers of the day. This was the time when humanism arose. The idea that we should be concerned about the WORLDLY condition of humanity and seek to improve it is what humanism is about.

Now, I should point out that neither of these two Climates of Opinion are officially ours anymore. We've moved beyond that. However, I'm sure all of you on this board will recognize most of what I said above. That's because they're still around battling each other and other Climates of Opinion for dominance.

Christianity, and religion in general in modern industrialized countries, has taken a hit largely thanks to science. It's pretty much dead in Europe. It's still strong here in the United States, but it cannot claim to be the premier CoO. The fact that it is fighting for its life against the onslaught of science and secular humanism is proof of that.

Also, the Enlightenment idea of human progress also took a hit during World War I and World War II. After that, it was difficult to believe that humans could get better.

Still, I said that both were still around. We see evangelical Christians "reviving" the religion and its people. We also see liberals, people who believe that the human condition can be reformed. In other words, they believe in progress.

So, what are our official Climates of Opinion? I'll tell you, at least the ones here in America.

The first one is Love, Relationships, and the Home. What do the vast majority of our pop songs talk about? Love! D'uh! Ever listen to Elvis or Bing Crosby croon about that special someone? Or that feeling you get when you meet "the right person?" Or what about those Britney Spears songs? Yeah, they're generic, mass-produced ballads about love and relationships. This CoO tells us that people are supposed to fall in love with the right person and get married.

Ever wondered why most Americans seem so provincial? Why they seem to know hardly anything about the world beyond their own lives? It's because that world is a scary place where people hear the marching footsteps of an invading army, or where people die of starvation! We can't control all of that. It is the home where we can take refuge from that cold and nasty world. We can control what goes on in our homes. At least we'd like to think so. In that home, you have a husband, a wife, and 2.3 kids. Maybe even dogs and cats. The husband's duty is to go out to that scary, mean world and earn money - NOT for himself, but to bring home to support his family. The wife's duty is to be caretaker of the home and loving supporter of her husband. The children are that couple's legacy. Those children are not there for the financial benefit of the parents. Remember, children were usually seen as extra hands around the farm or craftshop up until the 20th Century. No, the purpose of having children is fulfillment. You have children not simply for procreation, but to complete yourself as a person and to ensure that what you've learned in your lifetime can be passed on. It's worldly immortality.

That's the first of our CoO. The second is hyper-individuality. This one says that whatever feels good, you do it. Life is short, play hard. Tired of working at a crummy office? Quit and travel Europe! Earn money by doing temporary jobs. Be a waiter at a restaurant along the Champs-Elysee for a month! When you get tired of that, quit then apprentice with a great painter! Wanna jump out of a plane and parachute down? Do it! Wanna dress up like a Goth and be angst-ridden? Do it! Express Yourself!!!!

Now, not being a hyper-individualist, I really can't be that accurate about what it says. Still, i'm sure you recognize some parts of it. I'm sure all of you are VERY well acquainted with the Love, Relationships, and Home CoO. These two are our official Climates of Opinion. Ironically, there are areas where the two contradict each other. LRH CoO demands sacrifice and compromise. The second considers that to be evil. Go figure.

Anyway, that's all I can think of for now. I hope this rather long post has helped to put our times in some context.

The Laughing Man
July 26th 2004, 11:42 PM
The purpose of life is life itself?











:duh:










And theists are accused of circular logic?

DarwinianJihadi
July 27th 2004, 12:02 AM
The purpose of that saying is that according to those who participated in the Enlightenment, the purpose of your life is not to serve some distant god or to follow the church or whatnot. It was to live and appreciate existence here on Earth and not looking to some promises of a hereafter. I thought that was quite clear in the post.

CatholicSage
July 27th 2004, 02:33 AM
The Enlightenment, eh? I've been involved in many a debate in which I've criticized those egotistic philosophes! :fencing: Ah, good memories...

Anyway, I think the idea you present is somewhat interesting. It certainly does seem that there are always elements of a society that aren't thought about much and are simply accepted as the status quo. The language you use to describe the Christian and secular Enlightenment worldviews is rather stark, though...

PS: *looks at DarwinianJihadi's sig* You have good taste in movies, my friend! :thumb:

DarwinianJihadi
July 27th 2004, 03:11 AM
The Enlightenment, eh? I've been involved in many a debate in which I've criticized those egotistic philosophes! :fencing: Ah, good memories...LOL! Yup it's all about us peeps!:lol:

However, I should point out that belief systems where people believe that an omnipotent God that has to take care of a universe that's over 140 BILLION light years wide (and getting bigger) with a virtually infinite amount of crap going on in it can take the time out to listen to a single person's prayers is also rather egotistical, no?

Anyway, I think the idea you present is somewhat interesting. It certainly does seem that there are always elements of a society that aren't thought about much and are simply accepted as the status quo. The language you use to describe the Christian and secular Enlightenment worldviews is rather stark, though...True. I should have added that these are polemic statements. Real people can adhere to MULTIPLE CoOs. Humans can find a way to reconcile differences in their beliefs.

PS: *looks at DarwinianJihadi's sig* You have good taste in movies, my friend! :thumb:Hee hee! Thanks. I've got more, but there's not enough room.

CatholicSage
July 27th 2004, 05:33 PM
LOL! Yup it's all about us peeps!:lol:

However, I should point out that belief systems where people believe that an omnipotent God that has to take care of a universe that's over 140 BILLION light years wide (and getting bigger) with a virtually infinite amount of crap going on in it can take the time out to listen to a single person's prayers is also rather egotistical, no?


It can be egotistic, if the person who is praying is asking for something rather shallow. More often than not, though, prayer is a very humbling experience.


True. I should have added that these are polemic statements. Real people can adhere to MULTIPLE CoOs. Humans can find a way to reconcile differences in their beliefs.


Hopefully there doesn't need to be too much reconciliation, or it would seem that the person is adhering to clearly contradictoary beliefs.


Hee hee! Thanks. I've got more, but there's not enough room.

Yeah, I can only fit my one big quote into my sig. Oh well... :shrug:

DarwinianJihadi
July 28th 2004, 12:10 AM
It can be egotistic, if the person who is praying is asking for something rather shallow. More often than not, though, prayer is a very humbling experience.Actually, it doesn't matter what end prayers are supposed to lead to. The very concept of someone thinking that an omnipotent being that runs the universe will somehow take the time out to answer their prayers is egotistical and puts themselves at the center of the universe in a fashion.

Hopefully there doesn't need to be too much reconciliation, or it would seem that the person is adhering to clearly contradictoary beliefs.Most modern Americans are concerned about their jobs, their marriages/relationships, their friends, the economy, etc. And yet, with all that concern about the material world, the vast majority of them profess to be Christian. There doesn't have to be contradiction. Especially when you genericize Christianity as a lot of Americans seem to do. Again, CoOs are polemic. Most people fall somewhere in between quite easily.

CatholicSage
July 28th 2004, 01:48 AM
Actually, it doesn't matter what end prayers are supposed to lead to. The very concept of someone thinking that an omnipotent being that runs the universe will somehow take the time out to answer their prayers is egotistical and puts themselves at the center of the universe in a fashion.


The attitude of a prayer is important in telling whether or not the one praying is egotistic. Someone asking God for a bike and expecting God to actually give him a bike for no reason would be egotistic, while someone taking time out of their day to thank God for his blessings would be humble. Prayer is not necessarily egotistic.

DarwinianJihadi
July 28th 2004, 02:17 AM
The attitude of a prayer is important in telling whether or not the one praying is egotistic. Someone asking God for a bike and expecting God to actually give him a bike for no reason would be egotistic, while someone taking time out of their day to thank God for his blessings would be humble. Prayer is not necessarily egotistic.That person who thanks God assumes that He listens, does he not? Otherwise what would be the purpose of prayer when making the most of those blessings and not taking them for granted should be enough? Prayers are either explicitly for God's benefit or for the praying person's benefit if what you say is true. Either case assumes that God is listening to the praying person's thanks, which is in a fashion egotistical.

The example about the bike that you give is better termed as a self-serving act. It can be egotistical, but the former is a more pertinant term. The very word ego means "I." It places special relevance to the "self," which is what the person giving thanks to God is doing when he/she could just as effectively be thankful by living the blessed life to its fullest. Praying assumes that 1)God listens to him/her at all, 2)It assumes that those blessings were specifically meant for him/her (unless you mean to say that blessings are completely based on chance and probability), and 3)that God needs his/her thanks at all rather than for that person to live the blessed life that he/she has found him/herself to be in.

I'm using the term "egotistical" in the broadest sense of the word. It's not meant to be negative, though certainly it could be construed as such if you are so inclined.