The star of Bethlehem

[judge]

Hi all!
Not sure if this is the right forum for this but if anyone is interested in the star of bethlehem this link is as good as i have seen.

http://askelm.com/video/real/xmas_star.swf

Comments anyone

[Socrates]

A planetary conjunction would NEVER be mistaken for a single object. The closest approach was one degree, and that's two full moon diameters! A better explanation is that the star,which in Greek can mean any brilliance, is an appearance of God’s Shechina Glory¯see www.ariel.org/ff00020f.html

[Dilton]

So, it wasn´t actually a star, but a divine manifestation. "Star", in that case, would be just a name to that manifestation, and not a present star at some point in the universe.

[Minnesota]

From the aerial.org link:

"Obviously, this star is something different, but what? The Greek word for "star" simply means "radiance" or "brilliance." With this star coming in the form of a light, we have the appearance of the Shechinah Glory - the visible manifestation of God's presence.

"Whenever God became visible in the Old Testament, such a manifestation was referred to as the Shechinah Glory. This manifested most often in the form of a light, fire, cloud or some combination of these three things. And, so, in Babylon appears a light, a brilliance, a radiance that may look from a distance like a star but has actions and characteristics that no star can or does. What these Wise Men actually saw was the Shechinah Glory, and they deduced that it was a signal that the King of the Jews had finally been born. "

Will these people never tire of making things up? Not even a hesitation or an, "In my opinion," but a flat out statement as if the idea was substantiated fact. Maybe someone here can explain the mindset that leads to such arrogant presumption.

[Socratism]

04-14-2003 @ 03:28 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=65906#post65906)
judge:

Hi all!
Not sure if this is the right forum for this but if anyone is interested in the star of bethlehem this link is as good as i have seen.

http://askelm.com/video/real/xmas_star.swf

Comments anyone

The link you posted was quite good and one part of it agreed with our prior research on the subject.

We used the program "Dance of the Planets" to simulate the various conjunctions mentioned and came to the conclusion that the Jupiter/Regulus one was the best candidate for several reasons: it was unusually close together, and it occurred near the beginning of the Jewish New Year (the traditional time of the birth of Jesus). The astronomers probably started their journey at the time of the first conjunction and reached Jerusalem at the time of the second.

In addition there are other events that tie in to these as explained in another link.

http://sciastro.net/portia/articles/thestar.htm

It should be obvious that only the ancient astronomers would be impressed by these events for it is true that they were not visually spectacular enough to attract widespread attention.

[Socrates]

Minnesota:From the aerial.org [sic -- ariel.org] link:


"Obviously, this star is something different, but what? The Greek word for "star" simply means "radiance" or "brilliance." With this star coming in the form of a light, we have the appearance of the Shechinah Glory - the visible manifestation of God's presence.

"Whenever God became visible in the Old Testament, such a manifestation was referred to as the Shechinah Glory. This manifested most often in the form of a light, fire, cloud or some combination of these three things. And, so, in Babylon appears a light, a brilliance, a radiance that may look from a distance like a star but has actions and characteristics that no star can or does. What these Wise Men actually saw was the Shechinah Glory, and they deduced that it was a signal that the King of the Jews had finally been born. "

Will these people never tire of making things up? Not even a hesitation or an, "In my opinion," but a flat out statement as if the idea was substantiated fact. Maybe someone here can explain the mindset that leads to such arrogant presumption.And your refutation is, what? It so happens that Dr Fruchtenbaum is correct about the meaning of "star" in the original language. One day, bibliosceptics might go beyond English translations, but I'm not holding my breath. And he argues his case very tightly.

[judge]

Today @ 02:25 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=80456#post80456)
Socrates:



It so happens that Dr Fruchtenbaum is correct about the meaning of "star" in the original language. One day, bibliosceptics might go beyond English translations, but I'm not holding my breath. And he argues his case very tightly.


Hi Socrates,
hope you are well :)

There may be good reason for being wary of any interpretation hinging on the exact meaning of a greek word in matthew.
The evidence seems to be that Matthew was written in Aramaic first. See my post here...post number 15 of the thread....
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=77668#post77668

All the best ..judge :)

[ValiantForTruth]

04-15-2003 @ 09:50 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=67250#post67250)
Socrates:

A planetary conjunction would NEVER be mistaken for a single object. The closest approach was one degree, and that's two full moon diameters! A better explanation is that the star,which in Greek can mean any brilliance, is an appearance of God’s Shechina Glory¯see www.ariel.org/ff00020f.html

The only problem with this is that The Bible clearly says "we have seen HIS STAR in the east" (Matt.2:2)." They saw it because that is what they do - the wise men. They were star gazers, asrtronomers (not astrologers).

It was not a conjunction that was "His Star". But the conjunction was one of many activities involving the King Star. It was the unique activities of the King Star that prompted the journey of the Wise Men to Jerusalem.

Agape,
Don

[Dee Dee Warren]

Hi there Don!!

[Socrates]

Socrates:


A planetary conjunction would NEVER be mistaken for a single object. The closest approach was one degree, and that's two full moon diameters! A better explanation is that the star,which in Greek can mean any brilliance, is an appearance of God’s Shechina Glory¯see www.ariel.org/ff00020f.html

ValiantForTruth The only problem with this is that The Bible clearly says "we have seen HIS STAR in the east" (Matt.2:2)." They saw it because that is what they do - the wise men. They were star gazers, asrtronomers (not astrologers). Why is this a problem? His star can certainly apply to the Shechina Glory

[Socrates]

Socrates:


It so happens that Dr Fruchtenbaum is correct about the meaning of "star" in the original language. One day, bibliosceptics might go beyond English translations, but I'm not holding my breath. And he argues his case very tightly.

Judge:There may be good reason for being wary of any interpretation hinging on the exact meaning of a greek word in matthew.
The evidence seems to be that Matthew was written in Aramaic first. See my post here...post number 15 of the thread....
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sh...77668#post77668
G'day. I've replied on this thread. First, divine inspiration applies to the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament, best reflected in the Masoretic Text; and the Greek originals of the New Testament, best reflected in the UBS/Nestle-Aland Text. So it is perfectly reasonable to look at the Greek of Matthew for doctrine.

Second, the Hebrew word for star, kokab, has much the same semantic range, so my argument would be unaffected even if the "Hebrew roots" heterodoxy were correct.

[ValiantForTruth]

Socrates:
Why is this a problem? His star can certainly apply to the Shechina Glory.

VFT:
But, the Shechina Glory is "bright". And there is no indication that anyone else saw this "bright light" other than the wise men!

Then, when the wise men met with Herod, Herod apparently had not seen it either. Thus, he inquired of them "diligently" (ie. more accurately) WHEN they first saw this star. When did they begin tracking its movements.

Had this been "the Shechina Glory" the wise men would not have referred to this light as a "star" (Gk. aster). This is translated as a star in other places as well. For example...

1Cor.15:41
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Same word translated star in both Matthew and Corinthians.

Also, when God created the Sun and the stars, He said they would be for "signs" and seasons. This would certainly qualify as a "sign". Therefore, I see no reason to believe that this is anything other than an actual "star".

Agape,
Don

[ValiantForTruth]

Quote from http://www.ariel.org/ff00020f.html.

Quote:
"Let us first focus our attention on the issue of the star . . . certainly, no ordinary star."

VFT:
That is yet to be determined.

Quote (cont.):
It is referred to as "his" star, the "King of the Jews" star, in a way that cannot apply to other stars.

VFT:
Stars and Planets and Comets all had names, and were associated with certain things. Comets were usually associated with death. Mars with war. Regulus, a bright star, was the King star. And Jupiter was associated with the birth of kings.

But the prophecy was that a star would come out of Jacob. Jacob (later known as Irael) had 12 sons. One was named Judah. Judah was referred to as the Lion. And Jesus was to come from the line of Judah.

There are 12 constellations or groupings of stars in the sky. One is Leo (the lion). It is the activities and associations of the movements of the KING PLANET (Jupiter) with respect to this constellation, as well as with other noteworthy stars in the heavens, that pointed the wise men specifically to the land of Judeah, of which the capital city was Jerusalem, which was the first stop the wise men made.

Quote (cont.):
This star appears and disappears.

VFT:
Over a period of time, stars rise and set, just like the sun and the moon. This star did not simply "vanish" and reappear randomly. It rose in the east and set in the west. But as the earth moves around the sun, the position of the stars change, and some stars are not visible for a season or so.

Quote (cont.):
This star moves from east to west.

VFT:
"All the stars" and all the planets, as well as the Sun and the moon, all move from east to west.

Quote (cont.):
This star moves from north to south.

VFT:
This star does NOT "move" from north to south. From Jerusalem, Bethlehem is about 5 miles due South. When the wise men came out and started for Bethlehem, after meeting with Herod, "lo the star went before them". This does NOT mean that the star began to move South. This has an astronomical meaning. If you were to draw a line from the north star to His Star and then extend that line to the ground (also known as the "meridian" of the star) this line went through the town of Bethlehem. As they walked towards Bethlehem, the star would not have been behind them, but rather ahead of them along this line.

Quote (cont.):
This star hovers over one single house in Bethlehem, pointing out the exact location of the Messiah.

VFT:
The Bible does not say the star "hovered", it says it "stood". This is an astronomical term that means that the star was at the apex or highest point in the sky from the horizon. And in the case of the planet Jupiter (a wandering star), it was indicates that it was in "retrograde motion". In other words, relative to the other stars in the sky, it appeared to remain stationary.

And the bible does not say that it stood over "a house". It says it stood over "the place" where the child was. The "place" was the town of Bethlehem. It then says that when they found the child, he was in a house.

Quote (cont.):
It is very evident that this cannot be a literal star.

VFT:
Actually, it is quite likely that it was a planet, which is a wandering star ("Planet" means wandering star). And Jupiter was known as the "King" planet.

Agape,
Don

[John Powell]

ValientForTruth:
Quote from http://www.ariel.org/ff00020f.html.

ARIEL Quote:
"Let us first focus our attention on the issue of the star . . . certainly, no ordinary star."

VFT:
That is yet to be determined.

ARIEL Quote (cont.):
It is referred to as "his" star, the "King of the Jews" star, in a way that cannot apply to other stars.

VFT:
Stars and Planets and Comets all had names, and were associated with certain things.


POWELL:
Are you sure all the visible stars had names? That would be 1000s of stars to name. Don't you mean the very brightest stars and the noticeable planets and comets had names?


VFT:
Comets were usually associated with death. Mars with war. Regulus, a bright star, was the King star. And Jupiter was associated with the birth of kings.

But the prophecy was that a star would come out of Jacob. Jacob (later known as Irael) had 12 sons. One was named Judah. Judah was referred to as the Lion. And Jesus was to come from the line of Judah.

There are 12 constellations or groupings of stars in the sky.


POWELL:
Don't you mean ". . . along the ecliptic"?


VFT:
One is Leo (the lion). It is the activities and associations of the movements of the KING PLANET (Jupiter) with respect to this constellation, as well as with other noteworthy stars in the heavens, that pointed the wise men specifically to the land of Judeah, of which the capital city was Jerusalem, which was the first stop the wise men made.


POWELL:
What specifically were the movements of Jupiter relative to the zodiacal constellation of Leo the lion that led them to think this?


ARIEL Quote (cont.):
This star appears and disappears.

VFT:
Over a period of time, stars rise and set, just like the sun and the moon. This star did not simply "vanish" and reappear randomly. It rose in the east and set in the west.

But as the earth moves around the sun, the position of the stars change, and some stars are not visible for a season or so.


POWELL:
Huh? Are you saying that the relative positions of stars change noticeably during the year, that the right ascension and declination of stars visibly change as the Earth orbits the Sun?

Are the so-called summer constellations visible during the winter time?


ARIEL Quote (cont.):
This star moves from east to west.

VFT:
"All the stars" and all the planets, as well as the Sun and the moon, all move from east to west.


POWELL:
Actually, the Sun and Moon move from west to east relative to the background stars. It's just that the Earth spins so fast that distant celestial objects not near the poles move generally from east to west relative to the horizon.


ARIEL Quote (cont.):
This star moves from north to south.


POWELL:
That's what some artificial Earth satellites do.


VFT:
This star does NOT "move" from north to south. From Jerusalem, Bethlehem is about 5 miles due South. When the wise men came out and started for Bethlehem, after meeting with Herod, "lo the star went before them". This does NOT mean that the star began to move South. This has an astronomical meaning. If you were to draw a line from the north star to His Star and then extend that line to the ground (also known as the "meridian" of the star) this line went through the town of Bethlehem. As they walked towards Bethlehem, the star would not have been behind them, but rather ahead of them along this line.


POWELL:
What star would have been the north star for those wise men, ValientForTruth? Specifically, would their north star have been the same as ours, the brightest star of Ursa Minor?


ARIEL Quote (cont.):
This star hovers over one single house in Bethlehem, pointing out the exact location of the Messiah.

VFT:
The Bible does not say the star "hovered", it says it "stood". This is an astronomical term that means that the star was at the apex or highest point in the sky from the horizon. And in the case of the planet Jupiter (a wandering star), it was indicates that it was in "retrograde motion". In other words, relative to the other stars in the sky, it appeared to remain stationary.


POWELL:
Jupiter doesn't "move" fast enough PROGRADE to appear fixed relative to our horizon. The Earth is spinning too fast.

When Jupiter appears to be stationary relative to the stars is it going prograde, retrograde, or neither?

Now, maybe here's a tough one, ValientForTruth. If the wise men had decided to pass Bethlehem to prove whether it really was the right place, would the star / planet have switched around to be in the north? If no, might that not suggest that they should continue traveling southward some more?


VFT:
And the bible does not say that it stood over "a house". It says it stood over "the place" where the child was. The "place" was the town of Bethlehem. It then says that when they found the child, he was in a house.

ARIEL Quote (cont.):
It is very evident that this cannot be a literal star.


POWELL:
That seems clear to me. Normal stars don't move in the ways suggested.


VFT:
Actually, it is quite likely that it was a planet, which is a wandering star ("Planet" means wandering star). And Jupiter was known as the "King" planet.

Agape,
Don


POWELL:
Now, ValientForTruth, could you specify the dates and times when the movements of Jupiter would best satisfy your scenario?

John Powell

[Socratism]

Excuse mefor butting in but the first conjunction of Jupiter with Regulus (the king star) occurred on the first day of the Hebrew New Year.

A retrograde motion of Jupiter then occurred and it again reached conjunction with Regulus (as I recall) around December 25th or so.

The software package "Dance of the Planets" allows one to see this visually as it would have appeared in the Middle East, and the conjunctions in question were quite close, to the point where they effectively merge into one "star"and "light up".

I will try to find my original commentary on this to make sure it agrees with my current recollection after a period that has ellapsed of a half dozen years or so.

[Socratism]

The following article appeared in IMPRIMIS, the publication of Hillsdale College, a couple of years ago, and they re-ran it in December 1996.

September 11, 3 B.C., is perhaps the most interesting date of all. Not only was Jupiter very close to Regulus in the first of their conjunctions, but the sun was in the constellation of Virgo (of obvious symbolism- the Virgin), together with the new moon (a Jewish symbolic event), in a configuration that fits a plausible interpretation of a passage in the Book of Revelation describing the birth of a male child who is to be the ruler of the universe. Significantly, September 11, 3 B.C., also marked the beginning of the Jewish New Year, traditionally regarded as the anniversary of Noah's landing after the Great Flood.

[judge]

G'day Socrates!

You have said:

G'day. I've replied on this thread. First, divine inspiration applies to the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament, best reflected in the Masoretic Text; and the Greek originals of the New Testament, best reflected in the UBS/Nestle-Aland Text. So it is perfectly reasonable to look at the Greek of Matthew for doctrine.

Judge:
I would love to discuss this further, if you have the inclination?

Can you suggest a better forum here to do this?

[judge]

05-24-2003 @ 08:37 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=106607#post106607)
Socratism:

The following article appeared in IMPRIMIS, the publication of Hillsdale College, a couple of years ago, and they re-ran it in December 1996.

September 11, 3 B.C., is perhaps the most interesting date of all. Not only was Jupiter very close to Regulus in the first of their conjunctions, but the sun was in the constellation of Virgo (of obvious symbolism- the Virgin), together with the new moon (a Jewish symbolic event), in a configuration that fits a plausible interpretation of a passage in the Book of Revelation describing the birth of a male child who is to be the ruler of the universe. Significantly, September 11, 3 B.C., also marked the beginning of the Jewish New Year, traditionally regarded as the anniversary of Noah's landing after the Great Flood.


Hi Socratism,
This link discusses the same thing (I think)
http://www.redbay.com/ekklesia/revsign.htm

[Socratism]

05-25-2003 @ 08:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=107651#post107651)
judge:




Hi Socratism,
This link discusses the same thing (I think)
http://www.redbay.com/ekklesia/revsign.htm

Yes, it certainly seems to. Thanks for the link.

[AtheistArchon]

- Maybe it was the UFO behind the tail of Hale-Bopp reflecting starlight?